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User currently onlineB742 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 3767 posts, RR: 19
Posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3470 times:

I recently did a post on a tour of the VC-10 in the Trip Reports section, for those of you intrested in the VC10 the post is now up!

RAF VC10 Tour - Many Pics And Info Included (by B742 Jun 24 2006 in Trip Reports)

I decided to post here as I thought many of you may not look at the TT section  Wink

When can we expect the VC10's to leave the RAF?

Rob!  wave 

15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13184 posts, RR: 77
Reply 1, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3460 times:

Well I took a look and was very impressed.

As stated in my reply there, some more pics chosen for their atmosphere and general appearence, though it's very hard to find a VC-10 pic that is lacking in these attributes;

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Photo © Steve Brimley



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Photo © Neil Jones



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Photo © Chris Lofting



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Photo © Chris Lofting



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Photo © Mark McEwan



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Photo © Tony Marlow - WorldAirImages



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Photo © Keith Blincow



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Photo © Steve Flint



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Photo © Den Pascoe



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Photo © Günter Grondstein



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Photo © Ian Howat



User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 2, posted (8 years 1 month 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3418 times:

A 36 year old question about VC10s in BOAC service. I had one flight from Perth to LHR, but with a few stops! It was noticeable that the approach was almost like coming down a set of steps, each downstep being marked by airbrakes and then a more gentle descent followed by another slowing with the air brakes. It was especially noticeable coming into Cairo. It appeared as if it might be related to the autoland. And explanations of what was going on. A magnificent plane. Alas we returned on a 707.

User currently offlineZE701 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3371 times:

Quoting B742 (Thread starter):
When can we expect the VC10's to leave the RAF?

Hi Rob. 8 more years until the VC-10 retires from our service. Hope that answers your question.


User currently offlineFaenum From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 35 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3366 times:

Thanks for the pictures of ZA147 previously 5H-MMT of East African Airways, my employer from a long time ago.

User currently offlineCV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3261 times:

Hi!

I have a special affection for the VC-10, I like the lines of the airplane and I always felt sorry that the airliner didn't make the numbers it supposed to. I read some years ago that when BOAC operated both VC-10 and 707-400 the VC-10 was actually BETTER than the 707! Now if the VC-10 was better can we imagine if the plane had outsold the 707??? But unfortunetely it didn't! If you see my username I'm a true Convair 990 fan, but after the CV990 the airliner I really appreciate is the VC-10. I was lucky enough to see during one season flying from LHR to LIS most of the BA's Super VC-10's, and it was marvelous, me and some of my spotters friends we had a real special time watching the BA flight arriving and taking-off from LIS. But even now we see once a while a RAF VC-10 passing by. A few weeks ago I was passing downtown late afternoon when I saw the sillouette of a RAF VC-10 passing.....it was NOT an IL62.....the VC-10 looks much more elegant!
Anyway, thanks RAF for keeping these old ladies still fying strong!
regards


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13184 posts, RR: 77
Reply 6, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3221 times:

BOAC, after literally defining the VC-10, then cancelled 3 Standards, and 13 Supers.
Whilst the 707-320B/C did have better fuel consumption, the VC-10 was soon found to have greater pax appeal, right into the wide body age.

Worse, BAC salesmen would be near to completing deals with airlines, but then the prospective customer would produce a letter from Boeing, but actually originating from BOAC, written before the VC-10's appeal became clear, slating the VC-10.
Some, like Varanair Siam, MEA, Misair (later Egyptair), who actually signed for VC-10's, then did not get the approvals for the routes they planned to use them on.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 3188 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 6):
Worse, BAC salesmen would be near to completing deals with airlines, but then the prospective customer would produce a letter from Boeing, but actually originating from BOAC, written before the VC-10's appeal became clear, slating the VC-10.

Fascinating, I knew BOAC were really strange over the VC10, but not that strange. And the question arises, why were they so strange? Any ideas about the background? Do any of the rumours have any foundation?

A flight in a BOAC VC10 was certainly better than a similar vintage flight in a 707.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13184 posts, RR: 77
Reply 8, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3172 times:

They were just being badly managed (this was a British company).

Vickers were building the V.1000 in the mid 50's, for BOAC, as well as the RAF.
A generation later from the Comet 1, roughly in the early 707/DC-8 class, though still with engines (R/R Conways) buried in the wings.

BOAC cancelled in 1956, citing no need for transatlantic jets until the early 60's, then less than 18 months later went out and brought 707-436's.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 9, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3169 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 8):
BOAC cancelled in 1956, citing no need for transatlantic jets until the early 60's, then less than 18 months later went out and brought 707-436's.

Indeed. This and other events does not get your antennae waggling other than in "Oh God the British muddling again", and not even muddling through? Oh well, it was the time of no more manned fighters so not surprising the infection was more widespread. And the TSR2 mystery still to come.


User currently offlineVc10 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 1407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 10, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3162 times:

It must be remembered that in the late 1950s and 1960s BOAC were being told that they had to try and at least break even if not make a profit. to do this they needed reliable aircraft like their competitors and this really meant American aircraft which BOAC had been refused permission to bye previously because of the use of the mighty dollar.

They had been forced to buy British but the British Manufacturing industry had let them down badly, eg

Comet 1 -say no more
Hastings--Rubbish
Britannia --Very late in delivery
Hermes----Very short on performance

So BOAC management were in a fight with the government in that if they were to break even then it was up to BOAC what aircraft to buy and they wanted American. In the end the last true British aircraft [VC-10 ] turned out to be quite a success for them but after a long line of failures it was all too late for BOAC

littlevc10


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3147 times:

Quoting Vc10 (Reply 10):
So BOAC management were in a fight with the government in that if they were to break even then it was up to BOAC what aircraft to buy and they wanted American. In the end the last true British aircraft [VC-10 ] turned out to be quite a success for them but after a long line of failures it was all too late for BOAC

Mmm, all reasonable comment, but it does not quite explain the extraordinary record that BOAC (and BEA) had with their helpful comments. And that continued on into the 60s. Did either of them ever suggest changes that were beneficial. Even with the VC10, the take-off performance demands were a killer.
As I understand it, the Conway was thirsty mainly because of its low BPR and that in turn was because someone, presumably at RR, knew engines would only ever be mounted in the wings. Apart from that being incorrect, the BPR restriction is also an odd conclusion in view of the latest manifestation of the Nimrod.


User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7525 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3090 times:

There are some sad pictures from St Athan.


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Photo © Michael Stewart Brazier




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Photo © Michael Stewart Brazier



Whilst these fine aircraft were not gone yet (in April), the end for them was not far away.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3069 times:

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 12):
There are some sad pictures from St Athan.

So sad I almost wish I had not clicked on this thread after they were posted. Still being cannibalized is a bit better than being burned. Why has the undercarriage gone first? I always wondered how the weight of two Conways compared with that of one RB211, the smaller ones.


User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7525 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3052 times:

Perhaps there is a shortage of undercarriage components.

Alternatively if makes it easier to access other areas.


User currently offlineAndz From South Africa, joined Feb 2004, 8450 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2929 times:
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I flew Caledonian/BUA on a VC-10 in July 1971 which was my first long haul flight (GOD! 35 years ago!!) London-Lusaka and back again in February 1973. Last week I was at Brooklands and on board the Sultan of Oman's ex private jet, wondering if this was one of those I flew on all those years ago....


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Photo © Lars Söderström




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