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Who Makes The Harrier?  
User currently offlineAerLingus747 From Ireland, joined Apr 2006, 223 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4894 times:

Basically who makes the harrier?I know Boeing makes the harrier but didn't another company make it first.

Thanks in advance.

11 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineBsergonomics From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2002, 462 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4886 times:

The Harrier was originally designed and built by one of the forerunners to British Aerospace (now BAE Systems). The US became interested for a marine variant, but with more with the concept of Close Air Support during amphibious assaults. Therefore, Boeing bought the rights to further develop the aircraft.

The British Aerospace version essentially became what we know now as the Sea Harrier; i.e., the naval version.

The Boeing version, with its enlarged bubble canopy, became known as the AV-8. This version was 're-exported' to the UK, where it became the basis for the GR- series of aircraft, operated by the RAF.

That said, all design changes to both aircraft variants are fed back through BAES, to 'ask permission' for the change.



The definition of a 'Pessimist': an Optimist with experience...
User currently offlineThorny From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4864 times:

Quoting AerLingus747 (Thread starter):
Basically who makes the harrier?I know Boeing makes the harrier but didn't another company make it first.

Hawker-Siddeley of the United Kingdom designed and built the first Harriers. They were later license-produced in the United States by McDonnell-Douglas, which is now part of Boeing.

Quoting Bsergonomics (Reply 1):
The Boeing version, with its enlarged bubble canopy, became known as the AV-8. This version was 're-exported' to the UK, where it became the basis for the GR- series of aircraft, operated by the RAF.

I think you forgot the original AV-8A Harrier, which had much in common with the British variants. The US Marine Corps ordered 100 or so in 1970. The bubble-canopied (and re-winged) version was the AV-8B, which came along in the 1980s.


User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 19
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4748 times:

The AV-8A was based on the GR Mk.1 with some influences from the Sea Harrier Mk.1.
The AV-8B later influenced the GR Mk.5, 5a, and 7.



I wish I were flying
User currently offlineDeltaDC9 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 2844 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4717 times:

Quoting Thorny (Reply 2):
Hawker-Siddeley of the United Kingdom designed and built the first Harriers. They were later license-produced in the United States by McDonnell-Douglas, which is now part of Boeing.

IIRC the original was referred to as the "Hawker Harrier V/STOL Jump Jet" in the 70's.



Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13045 posts, RR: 78
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4702 times:

Hawkers at Kingston, in Surrey, built the first generation Harriers, including 106 AV-8A's, later a batch of Twin seaters, for the USMC.
Under the skin, the AV-8A's dispensed with some of the attack avionics of the RAF models, the USMC were more interested in simplicity, for operation from assault ships, then prepared strips in land.
Whereas the RAF force were commited to low level close support, in Germany, with the associated weather conditions.

AV-8A's were wired for AIM-9's, which the RAF force would not have until No.1 Sqn was deployed to the Falklands, to supplement the Sea Harrier's. Though in the event, much lower than expected attrition rate for the Sea Harriers, allowed the RAF force to concentrate on attack, in turn allowing the Sea Harriers to stick to air defence.

From the start of US acceptence of the type, MDD and Hawkers studied improved version, jointly as well as each company considering independant projects.
A joint proposal, the AV-16, looked to provide a bi-national solution for the USMC, RAF, RN maybe even the USN if the mooted 'Sea Control' ships were built.
But the economic upheavals of the period, caused the UK, then the US, to cancel the project, in 1973.

This pushed the RN to order a maritime version, based on the P.1127 platform, but with many structural, equipment-including radar, changes.
Since AV-16 was dead, and they wanted a developed Naval Harrier of some kind.
So the Sea Harrier was the quickest way to get this,

A few years later, independantly, the two companies again looked to the future, MDD basically refined the AV-16 further, Hawkers looked closely at fitting a new, bigger wing, to new build versions very similar to what MDD were now calling the AV-8B, RAF GR.3's and RN Sea Harriers.

After funding/political delays, the USMC started getting it's much more capable AV-8B's in 1982/3.

In 1981, a BAe version of the AV-8B, was picked for the RAF, with changes in avionics, (again, the RAF specified sophisticated gear for low level attack, including night attack, as well as a complex, comprehensive 'Zeus' ECM system), a strengthened canopy (more bird strikes at low level), extra small wing pylons just for AIM-9L's.

It was probably a mistake to upgrade the original first generation based Sea Harriers to FA.2 standard, and produce new builds, with the powerful Blue Vixen Radar and AMRAAM in the 1990's.
It would have been much better to put this capability into a Harrier II platform (what BAe and MDD called AV-8B/GR.5 and 7), since the 2nd generation models were much easier to adapt for engine growth, as the UK examples are getting now, and generally a more 'growth orientated' platform, unlike the 'squeeze it all in' Sea Harrier platform.

Such an aircraft would have been comparable the the AV-8B+ standard with the APG-65 radar, as some USMC, plus the Spanish and Italian AV-8B's have been upgraded to.

For what was originally an experimental aircraft, the P.1127, for the big, supersonic, expensive, probably impractical P.1154, the Harrier family has been a remarkable story.
When P.1154 was cancelled in 1965, the P.1127 was adapted, to some RAF reluctance, as an interim, simpler, more practical, soon to be deployed, low level close support aircraft. In RAF service from 1969.

Not until combat in the most difficult of situations, 8000 miles form home in 1982, was the Harrier taken seriously by the majority, since many saw it as an expensive novelty before, not really a serious combat aircraft.


User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4698 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 5):
Not until combat in the most difficult of situations, 8000 miles form home in 1982, was the Harrier taken seriously by the majority, since many saw it as an expensive novelty before, not really a serious combat aircraft.

God, yes, that conflict totally changed the popular opinion of the Harrier - the Argentinian pilots were scared stiff of the Harrier at the end.


User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 19
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4655 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 5):
It was probably a mistake to upgrade the original first generation based Sea Harriers to FA.2 standard, and produce new builds, with the powerful Blue Vixen Radar and AMRAAM in the 1990's.
It would have been much better to put this capability into a Harrier II platform (what BAe and MDD called AV-8B/GR.5 and 7),

Teeny tiny problem there: the AV-8B isn't (or wasn't at the time, they may have upgraded them) wired for BVR missiles and lacks the radar to use them.
Both were a requirement for the FA.2.
The retirement of the FA.2 to save a bit of money for Blair's new luxury presidential jet is the real mistake.



I wish I were flying
User currently offlineDeltaDC9 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 2844 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4603 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 5):
Not until combat in the most difficult of situations, 8000 miles form home in 1982, was the Harrier taken seriously by the majority, since many saw it as an expensive novelty before, not really a serious combat aircraft.

I am glad the Marines got wise to their versatility fairly early on, because when you need a Harriers capabilities, they become the best fighter in the world.



Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13045 posts, RR: 78
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4583 times:

Jwenting, sorry but incorrect, as stated, Spanish, Italian, some USMC AV-8B's (the '+' version), do have the APG-65, if that could be fitted so could the roughly comparable Sea Vixen-they squeezed it into the Sea Harrier after all.
(But they even had to put an extra plug in the Sea Harrier's rear fuselage to accomodate some of the associated Sea Vixen avionics, it was that much of a squeeze).

I'm not defending the Sea Harrier retirement, but it is true a lot of money would need to be spent keeping FA.2 viable.
(My own view is that the 18 new build FA.2's from the 1990's, should if possible have had provision for at least a degree of engine upgrades, many in the RN do not deny the older FRS.1 to FA.2 upgrades were 'becoming tired' in recent years, plus you had the small wing limitations and a much more limited strike ability compared to Harrier II).

Instead, upgrading the RAF Harrier II's with powerplant improvements, avionic and weapon upgrades, was seen as a better bet.
I do think Sea Vixen sets, taken from FA.2's, should have been part of at least some of the aircraft alloted to the RN from the RAF-No.3 Sqn, has converted from the Harrier to the Typhoon.

In hot conditions, the FA.2 was limited, there was just no provision for the upgraded Peguasus engines, now being fitted to GR.9's, in that platform.
Had the Harrier II with Sea Vixen/Amraam been built, you would have had savings across the board since this type was really a different aircraft from the 1st Generation Harriers.

I really cannot understand the linkage to the much discussed lease of second hand jets for VIP, which might well work out cheaper than the current ad-hoc arrangements.
If you think this mythical saved money, would have made a difference to
FA.2, well I don't know what to say, the idea is just too bizzare for me.
Besides, the policy on FA.2 emerged 4 years ago, not recently.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13045 posts, RR: 78
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4568 times:

Some pics and links;

http://www.harrier.org.uk/contents/index.htm

http://www.globalaircraft.org/planes/av-8b_harrier_ii.pl

http://www.naval-history.net/F64argaircraftlost.htm


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User currently offlineDeltaDC9 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 2844 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4524 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 10):
Some pics and links;

Nice pics, I have seen them at airshows and they always steal the show. They command your attention.

The only pic you are missing is the one from the Simpsons where it was demonstrating at an airsho to "Rock You Like A Hurricane". Big grin



Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
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