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NZ Govt To Purchase NH90's For RNZAF  
User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4832 posts, RR: 9
Posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 10643 times:

The New Zealand Government has confirmed that the Iroquois replacement helicopter will be the NH90 and initially 8 aircraft will be ordered in a NZ$500million (US$300million) purchase.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/search/sto...007C0D8-3A4D-14B2-BEFB83027AF1010F

This is likely to be increased as they will be replacing 14 Iroquois.


56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMigFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 10628 times:

Awesome, now at least the RNZAF will have something cool!

Those Hueys are a bit long in the tooth.

/M


User currently offlineVirginFlyer From New Zealand, joined Sep 2000, 4575 posts, RR: 41
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 10625 times:

Quoting Zkpilot (Thread starter):
This is likely to be increased as they will be replacing 14 Iroquois.

Really? I was under the impression this wasn't going to be a one-for-one replacement...

V/F



"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 10601 times:

I saw it in the latest AvWeek, too - good choice, especially for maritime use.



User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4832 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 10548 times:

Quoting VirginFlyer (Reply 2):
Really? I was under the impression this wasn't going to be a one-for-one replacement...

Well initially its not 1 for 1.. even though the NH90 is a much more capable aircraft I don't see how it can fulfill the requirements with only 8 frames. RNZAF sends helicopters down to Antartica, to places like East Timor and the Solomons. It also has to have a few based in NZ for training and of course for domestic operations (relief ops, rescues etc). At least 10 will eventually be required I think but more likely 12.



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineStealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5696 posts, RR: 44
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 10539 times:
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Good Choice for the RNZAF, makes good sense from a regional perspective as well. Australia has ordered a total of 46 of these as well, for the Army and Navy.
Before I get flamed by our cousins across the Tasman, I am not implying that NZ had to buy them because Australia did but it introduces economies of scale for support etc.

Cheers



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineOzair From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 849 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 10529 times:

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 5):
Before I get flamed by our cousins across the Tasman, I am not implying that NZ had to buy them because Australia did but it introduces economies of scale for support etc.

You might not be too far from the truth though! Big grin

Not in jest, there are actually quite a few Kiwis in the ADF anyway, at my recruitment I was interviewed by three people, two of them were Kiwis, and we are doing exchanges all the time.


User currently offlineZKNSJ From New Zealand, joined Jan 2006, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 10520 times:

well at least we can say our seasprites actually work lol, the only trouble we have had is when an australian exchange pilot slammed one onto the deck of the frigate and it had to be returned to kaman for repairs, in reality we need about 20-24 even if they were to go for say 12 nh-90's and then another 12 choppers such as the bell 412, and then 8-10 training/recon choppers such as the as-350 (allready 70+ in nz)

User currently offlineZksik From New Zealand, joined Jul 2004, 18 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 10505 times:

NH90 purchase is great news for the RNZAF. A big leap in capability and technology. Be sure to see the composites trade expand twicefold and moral even further...

ZKNSJ isnt too far from the truth:
The defence report reads if i remmember rightly, the minimum required to retain the RNZAF capability is 6 helos, with a recommendation of 8 helos and a maximum of 12. With one NH90 having double the capability of the iroquois there wouldnt be a 1:1 replacement.

Defence are currently looking at a light training helicopter with the capability to fill both helicopter conversion roles aswell as helicopter crewman conversion (the current sioux doesnt quite cut it)
They want a helicopter that can also be used in the SAR role, reducing the output and strain on the NH90's.

I would assume that the final purchase would be something along the lines of 8 NH90's and 6-8 Light utility helos - whichever these may be.

Current light utility helicopters in the runnings are the Agusta A109,A119, Bell407, EC130 & EC135's.

A few months back there was even talk about of the RNZAF to retain a few iroquois, not sure on the numbers. Iroquois are great simple and rugged choppers which i'd love to see more around but cant see that happening.

I have 2 questions on the NH90 purchase:
1) Heard that the downwash from the NH90's is quite substantial, and unsuitable for SAR?

2) How they would survive in the ruggared environments i.e east timor, antartica where the archilles heel of compisites could come out to play. Cold weather, stone chipping/delamination.



one life... fly it
User currently offlineStealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5696 posts, RR: 44
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 10497 times:
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Quoting Zksik (Reply 8):
With one NH90 having double the capability of the iroquois there wouldnt be a 1:1 replacement.

That is fine but with a small fleet and the often very distant deployments capacity doesn't mean squat. you could have a helo with the downwash of a Squirrel for SAR and the capacity of Chinook... not real useful if one of the few you have is someplace else!



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4832 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 10480 times:

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 9):
That is fine but with a small fleet and the often very distant deployments capacity doesn't mean squat.

so true... which is why I'm thinking they will up the order to 10 or 12 aircraft as well as having smaller helicopters for training and NZ based SAR.



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4832 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 10295 times:

The NH90 order has been confirmed with a few more details here:
"The Government has announced the purchase of eight new NH90 helicopters to replace the Air Force's fleet of ageing Iroquois.

Defence Minister Phil Goff today said the helicopters, which came at a cost of $771 million, would start arriving in New Zealand in 2010. The fleet would be fully in service by 2013.

Mr Goff said the NH90s were bigger, faster, more versatile and could travel further than the helicopters they were replacing.

A NH90 could carry 19 people rather than the Iroquois' eight, or 12 fully equipped troops rather than five.

They had a cruising speed of 260km/h, about a third faster than the Iroquois and could fly 800km rather than just 180km.

Its total lift capacity was four tonnes -- almost five times as much as the Iroquois.

Mr Goff said its long-range capability meant the NH90 would be able to "self-deploy" to Pacific disaster and trouble spots.

They were also capable of lifting army vehicles off a ship in situations where there were no port facilities.

"Militarily it is far more versatile in deploying soldiers into action and in dealing with complex counter-terrorism operations," he said.

"For civil disasters in New Zealand or elsewhere, such as floods, earthquakes, snow, cyclones or tsunamis, they can operate for extended periods and with large loads in all weathers, day and night, with significant flexibility.

Mr Goff said the European-made NH90 was "state of the art technology" and would be a cornerstone of defence force capability over the next 30 years.

The purchase represented a quantum leap forward over the Vietnam-era Iroquois.

Mr Goff said the NH90s were interoperable with the Australian Air Force, which was purchasing 46 NH90s.

The purchase is the last of the "core capability projects" on the Government's 10-year long-term development plan for the military.

Mr Goff said the cost of the purchase would be met within the $3.3 billion already committed to that plan.

The price of new helicopters was estimated at $560 million in 2002, but Mr Goff has denied the final price was a blowout.

More than a third of the price tag was for logistics and support including spare parts, project costs, training, software and equipment."

- NZPA



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineRAPCON From Puerto Rico, joined Jul 2006, 671 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 10253 times:

You think that if NZ was headed in the direction of the NH's they would've piggybacked on the AUS purchase, and locked the rate about 1 year ago.

Could've saved a hell of a lot of money.



MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 13, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 10210 times:

I am not big in helicopters, but how do those compare with the "Blackhawk"? Just some general info... capabilities and stuff.

Cheers



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineOzair From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 849 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 10174 times:

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 12):
You think that if NZ was headed in the direction of the NH's they would've piggybacked on the AUS purchase, and locked the rate about 1 year ago.

Could've saved a hell of a lot of money.

They will have them manufactured in Brisbane along with the Aussie NH90s but I think that is a far as they want to go with Helicopter purchases and Australia. We do not have a very good track record in this area!


User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4832 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 10173 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 13):
I am not big in helicopters, but how do those compare with the "Blackhawk"? Just some general info... capabilities and stuff.

Cheers

NH90 TTH:
(Tactical Transport Helicopter)
TTH main dataNFH main dataENGINE RATINGSMAIN DIMENSIONSSEATING/ARRANGEMENT

(1000 m, ISA + 15°C) (at mission gross weight)

Maximum gross weight 10600 kg 23370 lbs
Typical mission gross weight 10000 kg 22045 lbs
Baseline w/o mission equipment 5945 kg 13106 lbs
Maximum cruising speed 305 km/h 165 kts
Economical cruise speed 260 km/h 140 kts
Maximum rate of climb 8.7 m/s 1713 ft/min
Hovering ceiling - ISA - IGE 2960 m 9712 ft
Hovering ceiling - ISA - OGE 2355 m 7727 ft
Maximum range 800 km 432 nm
Ferry range 1200 km 648 nm
Maximum endurance 4:35 h:min
Radius of action with 2000 kg payload (30 minute reserve) 300 km 162 nm
Transport Capability > 2500 kg > 5510 lbs
OEI rate of climb (at continuous rating) 0.75 m/s 148 ft/min
OEI Emergency rating safe landing or fly away

ENGINE RATINGS
(SL, ISA) TTH main dataNFH main dataENGINE RATINGSMAIN DIMENSIONSSEATING/ARRANGEMENT
RRTM322-01/9 GE T700-T6E1
Maximum (30 minutes) 1788 kW/1692 kW
Maximum continuous 1662 kW/1577 kW
OEI continuous (1 hr) 1802 kW/1692 kW
OEI maximum contingency (2 minutes 30 s) 1855 kW/1817 kW
OEI emergency (30 s) 2158 kW/2064 kW

MAIN DIMENSIONS TTH main dataNFH main dataENGINE RATINGSMAIN DIMENSIONSSEATING/ARRANGEMENT

Length, rotors turning 19.56 m
Height, rotors turning 5.23 m
Length, fuselage max 16.13 m
Width, overall 4.52 m
Main rotor diameter 16.30 m
Folded dimensions
Length 13.50 m
Height 4.16 m
Width 3.80 m
Cargo cabin internal dimensions

Length 4.80 m
Width 2.00 m
Height 1.58 m (std cabin)
1.82 m (high cabin)
Volume 15.20 m3 (std cabin)
17.50 m3 (high cabin)
Sliding doors opening (WxH) 1.60 m x 1.50 m
Rear ramp opening (WxH) 1.78 m x 1.58 m


UH60 Blackhawk:DIMENSIONS:
Length 64.83 ft (19.76 m) with rotors turning
41.33 ft (12.60 m) folded
Rotor Diameter 53.67 ft (16.36 m)
Height 12.33 ft (3.76 m) to top of main rotor 16.83 ft (5.13 m) to top of tail rotor
Rotor Disk Area: 2,262.04 ft2 (210.14 m2)


WEIGHTS:
Empty 10,625 lb (4,820 kg)
Normal Takeoff 16,260 lb (7,375 kg)
Max Takeoff 20,250 lb (9,185 kg)
Fuel Capacity internal: unknown
external: unknown
Max Payload: 8,000 lb (3,630 kg) [external]

PROPULSION:
Powerplant two General Electric T700-700 turboshafts
Thrust 3,120 shp (2,326 kW)

PERFORMANCE:
Max Level Speed at altitude : 165 mph (270 km/h)
at sea level: 185 mph (295 km/h)
Maximum Climb Rate 3,000 ft (915 m) / min at sea level
Service Ceiling 19,000 ft (5,790 m)
Hover Ceiling
(out of ground effect) 10,400 ft (3,170 m)
Range typical: 325 nm (600 km)
ferry: 1,185 nm (2,200 km)
Endurance 2 hr 18 min

ARMAMENT:
Gun up to two 7.62-mm (0.3-in) M60 machine guns in cabin, two 7.62-mm (0.3-in) miniguns or two GECAL 0.50-in Gatling guns on pintle mount
Stations (optional) 2 stub wings with 4 hardpoints (External Stores Support System)
Air-to-Air Missile Stinger AAM
Air-to-Surface Missile AGM-114 Hellfire, HOT, HOT-2, or TOW anti-tank
Bomb none
Other rocket pods, mine dispensers, combined gun-rocket pods, jamming pods, chaff amd flare pods


Overall the NH90 is the larger/heavier of the two helicopters. The UH60 has the better range. The NH90 can carry more payload and is faster.
So overall the NH90 is probably the better of the two helicopters by most measures except for range.

Hope that helps you.  Smile



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7063 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 10169 times:

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 15):
So overall the NH90 is probably the better of the two helicopters by most measures except for range.

Hope that helps you. Smile

Which is not that big of a problem if you have the capability of air refueling.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4832 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 10151 times:

Quoting Columba (Reply 16):
Which is not that big of a problem if you have the capability of air refueling.

Which New Zealand doesn't have... I guess there is always the possibility of installing something on some C-130s... or their most likely replacement A400 (if it lives up to its claimed capabilities).



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineOzair From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 849 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 10151 times:

Quoting Columba (Reply 16):
Which is not that big of a problem if you have the capability of air refueling.

Doesn't really apply to either Australia or NZ. I don't think Australia uses it's tankers to refuel helicopters and NZ doesn't have any tankers.


User currently offlineRAPCON From Puerto Rico, joined Jul 2006, 671 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 10116 times:

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 15):
Overall the NH90 is the larger/heavier of the two helicopters. The UH60 has the better range. The NH90 can carry more payload and is faster.
So overall the NH90 is probably the better of the two helicopters by most measures except for range.

The 60 is more maneuverable and survivable. But I would say that except for the lift part, they're equal. I like the flexibility of the 90's ramp, but I also do not like her large profile (see back to the survivability issue).

The 60 is over 20yrs old(!) but it still selling well, and in terms of sales, will always beat the 90 just on the strength of the USA's requirements.



MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13208 posts, RR: 77
Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks ago) and read 10095 times:

Do we know if the UH-60 is really more surviveable?
Or more agile?

I don't think we'll know for sure until NH-90's are in combat situations.

UH-60 was a course a great leap from UH-1.
It was designed to be much more survivable, but like UH-60, NH-90 was designed from the start as a military machine.


User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4832 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 10058 times:

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 19):
The 60 is more maneuverable and survivable. But I would say that except for the lift part, they're equal. I like the flexibility of the 90's ramp, but I also do not like her large profile (see back to the survivability issue).

says who? Blackhawks seem to be falling out of the sky left, right and centre... hardly a week goes by where one hasn't been shot down or crashed. Theres a reason why there was a movie called "Blackhawk Down" (then again if the tail is shot of pretty much any helicopter is gonna go down). It has a faster climb rate but is not as fast as the 90. Yes the profile of the 90 looks bigger but appearances can be deceiving... It is in fact about the same size, just that it is slightly heavier but has a greater payload.
Australia already operates 60's but has decided to purchase 90's now.



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 22, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 9991 times:

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 15):

Thanks! Helps a lot!

Cheers



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineRAPCON From Puerto Rico, joined Jul 2006, 671 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9963 times:

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 21):
says who? Blackhawks seem to be falling out of the sky left, right and centre... hardly a week goes by where one hasn't been shot down or crashed. Theres a reason why there was a movie called "Blackhawk Down" (then again if the tail is shot of pretty much any helicopter is gonna go down). It has a faster climb rate but is not as fast as the 90. Yes the profile of the 90 looks bigger but appearances can be deceiving... It is in fact about the same size, just that it is slightly heavier but has a greater payload.

Take a look at the smilies and try to figure out this one:  crazy 

I guess the 90 is indestructible. Well for the ones in the NZ service they probably will be indestructible since the NZ forces do not do hot work, just disaster relief & "peacekeeping".



MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4832 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (8 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 9949 times:

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 23):
I guess the 90 is indestructible. Well for the ones in the NZ service they probably will be indestructible since the NZ forces do not do hot work, just disaster relief & "peacekeeping".

Yeah its not "hot" in East Timor, Solomon Islands, Afghanistan......  sarcastic 
and people don't shoot at them at all there either....  sarcastic 
maybe its not Iraq, but well who made the decision to go in there unprepared?



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
25 Post contains images RAPCON : How many helos does the NZ have in Afghanistan? Somewhere between 0 and 0. East Timor? Solomon Islands? Give me a break. Using that rule of thumb, Ne
26 Flying-Tiger : If you've checked the news lately East Timor has been on the bring of Civil War, if it wasn't already Civil War. Hot environment by any means. Not th
27 Zkpilot : As they are attached with the SAS and the govt does not comment on the SAS it is rather hard to tell probably 1-2... which is small yes but so is New
28 RAPCON : Wow! Your country's news broadcast sure covers a lot superficially but nothing concretely! It's like going to a wine sampling: you get to taste a lot
29 Zkpilot : Well a large number of Americans can't point Europe out on a map... there are also a lot that can't even find America on a map!! I've seen the news o
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