STT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16256 posts, RR: 52 Posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3425 times:
This is showing some sophistication on the part of Hezbollah, not just the fact they used a drone but that it actually made a direct hit. They did not build this in someone's Beirut basement, this has to be either Russian or Chinese technology via Iran.
Makes me curious as to Iran's military capabilities, also what kind of guidance/control did this drone use. Some guy staring at a video feed on a Toshiba tv and a Play station II control>?
It's amazing if the reports are accurate that Hezbollah singled out both this Warship and the City of Haifa for attacks and then were able to pull it off, they must be getting alot of help from someone with some sophistication.
KC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11708 posts, RR: 52 Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3418 times:
Do we know anything about the hezbollah drone? Is this drone similar to the ones they have flown over Northern Isreal on reconn missions in recent years?
N328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6222 posts, RR: 3 Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3403 times:
Something tells me the Israelis really wish they had MTHEL right now.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
L-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29350 posts, RR: 62 Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3380 times:
My compliments to Hezbollah.
I don't think anybody expected they would be able to do that.
It would have been better if it was the Lebonese military that had made this strike.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
Par13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 5901 posts, RR: 8 Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3374 times:
Amazing what technology mentally can do.
I have watched numerous WWII flicks of ships being targeted by Kamikazee planes, some get through some get shot down, no radar, no aegis just men with rapid firing guns.
Has so much been invested in technonlgy that low tech weapons like this can so easily disable a multi-million ship, I have seen video of Israeli ships off Beirut on tv, don't know if they are live shots or file tape, the ships however, look clean, like Burkes or Tico's, did not get a close enough look to see if they actually had anything like machine gun mounts or even bofors if things like that are still used on ships in this new missle age. The sarcastic part of me says that at least the radar saw it coming.
LY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 11 Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3364 times:
Quoting L-188 (Reply 4): I don't think anybody expected they would be able to do that.
They've been using aerial vehicles for over a decade, so I don't think this is shocking. What is shocking is the fact they got through the ship's defenses. Yet another lapse by the IDF...
STT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16256 posts, RR: 52 Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3333 times:
Quoting LY744 (Reply 6): They've been using aerial vehicles for over a decade, so I don't think this is shocking. What is shocking is the fact they got through the ship's defenses. Yet another lapse by the IDF...
Im not surprised they used an aerial drone, what really surprises me is that the leader of Hezbollah after his house is shelled by Israeli warships goes on the air makes a statement about striking the ship that hit his house.
I think to myself yeah right like they have that capability, and the next thing you know they are ramming a bombed packed drone into an Israeli warship.
Im astonished, if this were mythbusters I would have thought it would have been mythbusted but now it's myth confirmed.
LY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 11 Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3326 times:
Quoting STT757 (Reply 7): Im not surprised they used an aerial drone, what really surprises me is that the leader of Hezbollah after his house is shelled by Israeli warships goes on the air makes a statement about striking the ship that hit his house.
Well like I said in another thread (Non Av), I'm not sure how this ship was supposed to attack land targets. Does anyone know if there even is a version of the Harpoon that is ship launched and can attack ground targets.
STT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16256 posts, RR: 52 Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3317 times:
Quoting LY744 (Reply 8): Does anyone know if there even is a version of the Harpoon that is ship launched and can attack ground targets.
It had a gun, looked like a 5-inch from the news phootage.
L-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29350 posts, RR: 62 Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3317 times:
Quoting STT757 (Reply 9): It had a gun, looked like a 5-inch from the news phootage
If it was the same class as the ones they where showing on the news it was a 3inch OTO Melera gun.
Pretty common.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
PADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 5 Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3259 times:
Quoting STT757 (Thread starter): They did not build this in someone's Beirut basement, this has to be either Russian or Chinese technology via Iran.
All what you need to build a combat drone that can carry a 40kg payload can be bought in a model building shop.
I was into model building about ten years ago and just recently I popped into a model building store just to see what is possible today ... GPS-assisted autopilots, 1:3 scale models, jet and 60cc piston engines, video transimssion equippment and much more ... if you have the money (and the explosives) they have the equipment ... 1-2 smart and technically educated people and let's say 10.000 $ is all what you need to conduct such an attack. ... and you need luck to get through their defense, obviously.
Edit: Of course you need a lot of time to test and train, but definitely NOT the help of Syria, Iran, Russia, China or whoever!
Quoting N328KF (Reply 3): Something tells me the Israelis really wish they had MTHEL right now.
Well, a Phalanx or a RAM missile also could do the job. And even a well-trained and astute .50-inch gunner could bring it down.
Quoting LY744 (Reply 6): They've been using aerial vehicles for over a decade, so I don't think this is shocking. What is shocking is the fact they got through the ship's defenses. Yet another lapse by the IDF...
I think the was problem was that nobody anticipated such an attack.
Lumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 21 Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3182 times:
Quote: BEIRUT, Lebanon — A missile fired by Hezbollah, not an unmanned drone laden with explosives, damaged an Israeli warship off Lebanon, the army said Saturday.
The attack on Friday night had raised widespread concern in the Israeli military because initial information indicated that the guerrillas had used a drone for the first time to attack Israeli forces.
But the army's investigation into the attack, which left four Israeli sailors missing, showed that Hezbollah had fired an Iranian-made missile at the vessel from the shores of Lebanon, said Brig. Gen. Ido Nehushtan.
"We can confirm that it was hit by an Iranian-made missile launched by Hezbollah. We see this as very profound fingerprint of Iranian involvement in Hezbollah," Nehushtan said in an interview with The Associated Press.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
LY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 11 Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3128 times:
Quoting L-188 (Reply 10): If it was the same class as the ones they where showing on the news it was a 3inch OTO Melera gun.
Quoting STT757 (Reply 9): It had a gun, looked like a 5-inch from the news phootage.
It was a different ship from the one you saw on the news. The only gun this one has is the 20mm Vulcan as part of the Phalanx (?) anti missile defense system. The only offensive weapons on the Sa'ar 5 are 8 Harpoon launchers and some torpedoes.
Okelleynyc From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 219 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3128 times:
There's some speculation that it was a Chinese made C802K sold to Iran in the 90's. It's similar to the U.S. Harpoon or French Exocet, has 165kg warhead, a range of 120km and is high subsonic. According to Global Security it has a 98% hit probability due to its small size and powerful active jamming....
Very bad news indeed if true. I wonder if Mk 15 Phalanx CIWS would be able to bring it down...
Just give me my Vario, my Ozone Mojo and a gorgeous day of soaring.
PADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 5 Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3127 times:
Yeehaa ... IDF claims that is was an C802 missile, which is basically a dramatically improved Chinese/Iranian copy of the Exocet.
Forget what I said about model airplanes and .50 guns ... this thing could have easily sunk a frigate or corvette, what the hit ship apparently was ...
LMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3118 times:
Quoting Okelleynyc (Reply 15): There's some speculation that it was a Chinese made C802K sold to Iran in the 90's. It's similar to the U.S. Harpoon or French Exocet, has 165kg warhead, a range of 120km and is high subsonic. According to Global Security it has a 98% hit probability due to its small size and powerful active jamming....
Read one report that two were fired, which makes for a 50/50 hit probablity in this case.
Lumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 21 Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3110 times:
Quoting Okelleynyc (Reply 15): I wonder if Mk 15 Phalanx CIWS would be able to bring it down...
The Phalanx should be able to handle this missile, and the SAAR 5's are reportedly equipped with CIWS. One wonders is it was in "auto" or "manual", or not turned on at all? If there was no reason to suspect that there was a threat, the CIWS most likely would not have been engaged, since it could have endangered neutrals or friendlies. Only speculation on my part.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
Okelleynyc From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 219 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3086 times:
Quoting Lumberton (Reply 20): One wonders is it was in "auto" or "manual", or not turned on at all? If there was no reason to suspect that there was a threat, the CIWS most likely would not have been engaged, since it could have endangered neutrals or friendlies. Only speculation on my part.
I think that's good speculation Lumberton. I wasn't sure if the SAAR 5's had CIWS or not and if it did, why wasn't it able to stop the threat. I would have thought that if one is "on station" and "in combat", that the defensive systems would be active.
It'll be interesting to see if an after action report is shared so that we can find out what happened.
Just give me my Vario, my Ozone Mojo and a gorgeous day of soaring.
Lumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 21 Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3065 times:
Quoting Okelleynyc (Reply 21): I would have thought that if one is "on station" and "in combat", that the defensive systems would be active.
You're correct of course, but IIRC it happened to us when the USS STARK's was "off". When you are operating with other "friendlies"--especially those that have helo's embarked--it won't do to have the CIWS in full auto. On patrol, w/o having to worry about friendly aircraft and neutrals (BEY is closed after all) it would be prudent to have this engaged--unless intel said there was no threat. I suspect the Iranian missiles took them by surprise. Kind of like EILAT all over again, when they failed to realize the capability of the SSN2 "Styx".
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
Par13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 5901 posts, RR: 8 Reply 23, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3060 times:
Quoting PADSpot
"The second hit an egyptian freight ship, which apparently sunk."
How come this is of no concern to the news media?. I admit that I have not been watching the news events 24/7, checking BBC at the top of the hour and the other new outlets also, has this been reported?
I heard and watched the reports starting last night of the ship being hit, but no mention was made of any other vessel.
DEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4427 posts, RR: 1 Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3055 times:
Quoting LY744 (Reply 19):
Well it's 0-1 as of yesterday.
Quoting PADSpot (Reply 18): Quoting LMP737 (Reply 17):
Read one report that two were fired, which makes for a 50/50 hit probablity in this case.
The second hit an egyptian freight ship, which apparently sunk.
If this was confirmed, that would make it 2-0, but why would an ostensibly undefended freighter be targeted?
Quoting Lumberton (Reply 20): One wonders is it was in "auto" or "manual", or not turned on at all? If there was no reason to suspect that there was a threat,
Quoting Okelleynyc (Reply 21): I would have thought that if one is "on station" and "in combat", that the defensive systems would be active.
One would think that if one of your armed services attacked a foreign target, that the other branches would be on combat readiness long before.
Quoting Okelleynyc (Reply 21): It'll be interesting to see if an after action report is shared so that we can find out what happened.
Good luck on that one.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
25 PADSpot: Source is an article of german news channel n-tv. Unfortunatly its in German. http://www.n-tv.de/689160.html I can't find any additional information
26 GDB: The 76mm (a rapid fire weapon with radar guidence, presumably optics too), the Phalanx, the BARAK SAM (if fitted-but this Israeli weapon is in wide us
27 Jwenting: Not enough data points to make such an assessment. Because they're too busy painting Israel as the bad guys and the Jihadis as the gallant defenders
28 LY744: The Sa'ar 5 is equipped with one complete CIWS complex, mounted at the front of the ship. I imagine it can't provide more than about 270 degrees of co
29 Par13del: Jwentig "But only if you expect an attack from a certain vector. A fast boat with explosives or machine guns would have been expected, maybe even a li
30 OD720: As it's said, it wasn't a drone. I saw 2 missiles on TV fired 15 seconds from one another. A hit to another ship was not reported here.
31 PADSpot: You want engage (with a crew-operated weapon) a missile that has a 40cm diameter, is aiming directly at you, 5m above the waves, at close to 1000km/h
32 LY744: BTW, for what it's worth, the ship was hit in the rear, around where the helicopter landing pad/hangar is located. LY744.
33 Lumberton: Could have been steaming parallel to the coast, or turning, we just don't know. The more I read in the press, the more I'm convinced that the Israeli
34 STT757: During the Straight of Hurmoz (sp?) crisis in '86-'97 there's was alot of talk about the Iranian's Silk Worm Missiles, do they still use these or are
35 GDB: No PADspot, but any system, even crew operated, should have had a go, if the other more sophisticated systems failed. If we are talking about some sor
36 LY744: The IDF has really developed a knack for that sort of thing... LY744.
37 PADSpot: That was my point some replies before ...
38 Lumberton: Unquestionably! I saw a report on CNN last night that states Israel did not expect a missile threat. If true, it would most likely indicate that the
39 PADSpot: You are basically right, but it was known that Hisballah is/was supported by Syria and Iran. Somali militias are not officially supported by any stat
40 LMP737: Here's a picture of the 25mm cannon typically mounted on USN ships. http://www.navy.mil/view_single.asp?id=24672 If memory serves me correctly the Si
41 LMP737: Show me a military that does everything perfectly and I'll show you one that doesn't venture out the front gate.
42 Lumberton: Agreed, as we have just seen, one must not disregard either threat. No one knows what may have been smuggled into Somalia?
43 Jwenting: I agree they should have been ready but I can understand why they weren't. They would have been too far out for RPGs to be a threat and AFAIK noone h
44 Lumberton: And...successfully penetrated U.S. air defenses in 2003 due to their cruise missile (non-ballistic) flight profile. Still a very dangerous weapon....
45 L-188: If I remember correctly a Silkworm goes after the strongest radar signal. But even if it hit the Missouri, I don't think it would have done much othe
46 LMP737: The the .50 with the motor looks cool. However against a speed boat the mortor is not the most effective thing in the world. The 25mm will dispatch i
47 Bennett123: http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/17/mideast/index.html Is there any more news about the claimed IDF plane.
49 GDB: Indeed the US BB in 1991 might well have not been too troubled by a Silworm hit, unless it hit the Tomahawk or Harpoon launchers! This Israeli ship wa
50 LY744: The hit was indeed in the hangar area. They didn't lose any. Must have been that missile that "misfired" when it was coming back down. LY744.
51 Par13del: GDB Reply 49 "This Israeli ship was 10 miles offshore, had the Phalanx not the 76mm. Pics I've seen might show a helicopter hangar wrecked, if the pic
52 L-188: I don't know, The standard USCG deck gun is the 25mm and I know of one case where they ended up pumping 2000 rounds plus into a WWII surplus landing
53 PADSpot: Normally you have ten nautical miles of free sight over water until the earth's curvature sets in. BUT: Lebanon coast is quite hilly, i.e. from a 100
54 LMP737: What is more likely to score hit on a moving object, a mortor or a 25mm cannon?
55 Sprout5199: And don't forget the CIWS might have been "down". I know ours went down alot. Also if they were doing helo ops at the time, it would have been in stan
56 GDB: I suspect the ship, a Corvette not the usual patrol/attack craft, was acting as a command ship.
57 L-188: Different roles.......how about comparing the .50 and the 25MM. The real problem I have with the 25MM is that while it does deliver a harder punch th
58 LMP737: That should be easy. While the .50 has a higher rate of fire the 25mm packs a bigger punch and has greater range. Since the ship mounted 25mm cannon
60 Boeing4ever: Any pictures of the damage? What exactly constitutes Israel's navy? B4e-Forever New Frontiers
61 LY744: Israel's navy consists of about 15 missile ships (sorry, not sure about the way ships are classified), 3 of them being the Sa'ar 5 which are much big
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