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Report: A400 Deliveries Delayed 18-24 Mos  
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 32078 times:

http://www.lse.co.uk/FinanceNews.asp...ies_to_be_1824_months_late__report

Quote:
PARIS (AFX) - Deliveries of the Airbus A400M military transport aircraft being developed by EADS(European Aeronautics Defence and Space Company) are likely to be between 18 and 24 months behind schedule, La Tribune financial daily reported, citing industry sources.

Deliveries could even be delayed by as much as three years according to the most pessimistic estimate, the report said.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
247 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineOzair From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 867 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 32051 times:

This will see the end of any EADS law suit against the canadians.

User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7077 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 32022 times:

I was already expecting a delay - especially in Europe all big defence programmes have faced delays.
In fact the German military should already use Eurofighters, NH 90s and Tigers in high numbers  Wink
Maybe now we will see the lease of 4-6 C-130Js for the German Airforce to replace some of the older the C-160 Transalls.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineBHMBAGLOCK From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2698 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 32017 times:

Is anybody even a little surprised? Might help sell a few more C-17s though over the next year or two.


Where are all of my respected members going?
User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 32009 times:

More good news for the C-130J. Too bad EADS can't seem to get their act in gear. Lots of air forces could use this airplane. It may turn into good news for the C-17 line. Several nations will have to make decisions soon about their strategic transport needs and EADS is making it easier for them.


Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 31986 times:

For what it's worth, Boeing is going to announce a C-17 deal today. I assume they're referring to Canada.


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineGBan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 31962 times:

Complicated IFE wiring?

 

[Edited 2006-07-19 16:43:09]

User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 31907 times:

Airbus is now denying the report.
http://business.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=1051272006

Quote:
FARNBOROUGH (Reuters) - Airbus Military said on Wednesday its A400M airlifter programme was on schedule and that top management at parent EADS was focussed on the project despite a crisis at commercial planemaker Airbus.

"We are on time," Richard Thompson, senior vice president - commercial at Airbus Military, told reporters at the Farnborough International Airshow on Wednesday.

French newspaper La Tribune had reported that the A400M faced delays of 18 to 24 months -- up to three years in a worst-case scenario -- citing several industry sources.

Remember, I'm just the messenger. Don't shoot!



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 31890 times:

I did see in the Airbus article that they were admitting to some "supplier" problems but that EADS is "meeting all contractual obligations".

It sounds a little like defensive nonspeak designed to buy some time to let the dust settle a little so they can isolate the A400 issues.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 31887 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 7):
Airbus is now denying the report

Yeah, just like they did with the A-380  duck 



One Nation Under God
User currently offlineScouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3397 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 31682 times:

Quoting Columba (Reply 2):



Quoting Columba (Reply 2):
I was already expecting a delay - especially in Europe all big defence programmes have faced delays.

Aren't all miltary aircraft projects delayed not just the European ones?


User currently offlinePrebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6481 posts, RR: 54
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 31639 times:

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 10):
Aren't all miltary aircraft projects delayed not just the European ones?

Right. When no surprises show up, then delivery is on time. But there are a zillion things which can produce a surprise.

When one surprise shows up, then delivery will be late.

Still, if the A300M comes out with "only" 18-24 months delay, then that will be a lot better than the C-130J.

But that't long time ago and almost forgotten. Except by those Royal Danish Air Force mechanics who struggled so hard overtime to keep their old C-130Hs flyable years after planned retirement.



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlineScouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3397 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 31524 times:

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 11):
Still, if the A300M comes out with "only" 18-24 months delay, then that will be a lot better than the C-130J.

Or the British Chinooks which I belive still do not work as planned some 6 years after first delivery


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 31500 times:

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 10):
ren't all miltary aircraft projects delayed not just the European ones?



Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 11):
Still, if the A300M comes out with "only" 18-24 months delay, then that will be a lot better than the C-130J.
But that't long time ago and almost forgotten. Except by those Royal Danish Air Force mechanics who struggled so hard overtime to keep their old C-130Hs flyable years after planned retirement.

Quite right. However, comforting as it maybe to console oneself with comparisons to past programs, EADS can hardly afford the "everybody does it" approach to potential customers. If they bungle this program, then they will have a "Son of A380" public relations nightmare on their hands.

I'm sure a.netters are mindful that there are rough equivilents in military transport available NOW. It appears Canada has made a decision. Denmark is looking at options, viz., the C-17.

I submit comparisons to delays of past programs aren't relevant. It's strictly a case of "what have you done for me lately" or "what can you do for me now".



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineTancrede From Finland, joined May 2006, 245 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 31498 times:

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 3):
Is anybody even a little surprised? Might help sell a few more C-17s though over the next year or two.

Don't dream too much and too fast. In Europe, we got too some senses of patriotism.


User currently offlineAgill From Sweden, joined Feb 2004, 1011 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 31442 times:

Quoting Tancrede (Reply 14):

Don't dream too much and too fast. In Europe, we got too some senses of patriotism.

Well Denmark was interested weren't they, and I know Sweden was/is but it got delayed by the leftist government. And england is already committed to buying aren't they, or is it just a loan?


User currently offlineRAPCON From Puerto Rico, joined Jul 2006, 671 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 31426 times:

Quoting Tancrede (Reply 14):
Don't dream too much and too fast. In Europe, we got too some senses of patriotism.

But even that sense patriotism did not stop the AdlA from finally seeing the light and ordering a bunch of C-130's approximately 30 years after they were first offered!!!

C'mon!! Don't tell me that you would not want to see the flightlines at Orleans and Evreux full of C-17's in red/white/blue roundels????

Just call 1-800-GLOBEMASTER!!!



MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
User currently offlineTancrede From Finland, joined May 2006, 245 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 31415 times:

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 16):
C'mon!! Don't tell me that you would not want to see the flightlines at Orleans and Evreux full of C-17's in red/white/blue roundels????

Hell no, I would be too afraid that they crash on my home.


User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 months 5 days ago) and read 31407 times:

Quoting Tancrede (Reply 17):
Hell no, I would be too afraid that they crash on my home.

You'll have to wait a while there buckaroo. I do not think that one has been lost as of yet....I could be wrong now, but I don't think so.

Even when you all get the A400M (which should be a dandy airplane), will it carry an all up LeClerc MBT? See, because if it doesn't and you need to move one into a hot zone on short notice you'll have to rent space to do it-something I just gotta think you all don't like much, specially from a buncha snotty yanquis.

Don't kid yourself. The C17 is in a class by itself. There is nothing else that can do the job it is designed to do, which is to put an all up MBT on the ground and operate out of a 5,000 foot unimproved runway.


User currently offlineBHMBAGLOCK From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2698 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 31356 times:

Quoting Tancrede (Reply 14):
Don't dream too much and too fast. In Europe, we got too some senses of patriotism.

I am patriotic but that has nothing to do with my statement whatsoever. Noting that this could help C-17 sales was a simple observation that is likely to be correct. It won't sell 50 more copies but it could sell 10-15 easily. The past 5 years has demonstrated very clearly to many countries just how deficient their capabilities for strategic airlift are. Many have chosen the A400 to solve this problem, in some cases making a conscious decision to wait longer than they would care to but on the whole finding this the preferred solution. Add another 1.5-2 years to the equation and it changes the math, simple as that.

Don't try to make this a Europe v America thing, it isn't.



Where are all of my respected members going?
User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 31256 times:

Quoting Tancrede (Reply 17):
ell no, I would be too afraid that they crash on my home.

Want to cite an example of a C-17 crashing into homes, or are you just being a .... ?

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12158 posts, RR: 51
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 31255 times:

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 11):
A300M

I thought this was about the A-400M program?  duck  The A-300 goes out of production next year.

While it is true most defense programs (US and European) run into delays, it is not usually when the design is frozen and they are about to build the pre-production protoype.

If this story is true, then it tells me there is something seriously wrong with the design, that was recently found by one or more of the Air Force customers.


User currently offlineTancrede From Finland, joined May 2006, 245 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days ago) and read 31241 times:

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 20):
Want to cite an example of a C-17 crashing into homes, or are you just being a .... ?

Just a way to said that not only in the US planes are built. In Europe also we can make quality planes and we don't necessary need hardware from abroad.


User currently offlineRAPCON From Puerto Rico, joined Jul 2006, 671 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 31229 times:

Quoting Tancrede (Reply 23):
Just a way to said that not only in the US planes are built. In Europe also we can make quality planes and we don't necessary need hardware from abroad.

....I'll make sure to quote you when the USAF (and the politicians) nix any possible chances of the KC30 wearing the stars & bars on its fuselage. After all, we also make "quality planes" in the US, and we "don't necessary need hardware from abroad."

There is no doubt that the A400M can't even come up to the shoelace of a C-17. And the KC30 may actually be superior to the KC767. But come decision time on the KC, I'll follow your lead, and make sure that my representatives get an earful of me come selection time.

pssst: I'm going with B on the KC!



MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 31225 times:

Quoting Tancrede (Reply 23):
Just a way to said that not only in the US planes are built. In Europe also we can make quality planes and we don't necessary need hardware from abroad.

By sinking to the level of those who say European goods are shit...yup, immaturity comes in BOTH forms of the "red, white, and blue"...

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 24):
nix any possible chances of the KC30 wearing the stars & bars on its fuselage.

Listen to him folks...he's absolutly right! After all, "stars and bars" refers to the flag of the Confederate States of America...which thanks to a one Mr. Abraham Lincoln, thankfully doesn't exist, and is thus NOT shopping for a tanker to begin with.  mischievous 

Try Stars and Stripes.

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 24):
After all, we also make "quality planes" in the US, and we "don't necessary need hardware from abroad."

Take the high ground...there's ZERO need for this.

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 


25 Tancrede : You didn’t need to wait for me. Looks at what it is going now for the UH-145 LUH and then don't come to me to give some lessons. I do remember well
26 Post contains images Columba : The south will rise again Maybe they try a second approach and do some shopping in Europe right now After all the EADS plant for the KC 30 and the UH
27 GDB : A400M is not supposed to directly compete with C-17. Though for some, it will be seen as potentially an affordable alternative, that is an improvement
28 Post contains images Lumberton : Wow! Speaking of "childish"....
29 Pavlin : A400M is a political airplane. Airbus wants to like Boeing with all that military stuff
30 GDB : I know Lumberton, I'm just sick of those who only ever post snide comments and links from whatever analyst spouts that might seem to back up the snide
31 David L : EADS Military is a conglomeration and evolution of European manufacturers who've been making military aircraft as long as Boeing have. Were you not a
32 Dougloid : No offense there friend but if I had tourette's I'd be insulted and offended. I know one guy who has tourette's here. He's also a judge. Put you in y
33 Texfly101 : Its my understanding that there's nothing major wrong with the design, its just that they are having trouble meeting weight and range due to scope cr
34 L-188 : Your thinking of Concorde. But is the French Air Force not happy with their Stretched C-130's they got a few years back?
35 Columba : Ever heard of the C-160 Transall ? It flew even before the first Airbus was assembled. You are right that it is a political plane but it has nothing
36 Tancrede : Yes, I heard about it but this time the French authorities are going all the way with the A400M because, as many have said previously, it is a politi
37 Post contains links DLPMMM : For the information of all: Airbus has emphatically denied the stories about any delay in deliveries. Here is a link: http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/
38 Dougloid : How likely is it that the A400M can be scaled to haul a Leopard 2 or 2A5 plus support equipment, considering weight and cube?
39 DL021 : No..it was a way to insinuate that US built planes would crash into the house. I tried to think of a way that French could be mistranslated the way y
40 Bennett123 : This can only help the C130J/C17A.
41 Post contains images Dougloid : Of course. I knew the answer to that, I was merely trolling for nummies. Now...I worked in product development inspection on the C17 and I shot in a
42 BHMBAGLOCK : As DL021 states, the plant is in MS. Possible that the new Engineering Center currently being built in Mobile will have some associated work. The Arm
43 Post contains images Tancrede : You are so sure and full of yourself. Like you heard, the A400M is on shedule and will go strong, much stronger than you would like.
44 RAPCON : The AdlA got a combo of regular 130's and stretched models. The stretched are not supposed to do combat landings a la Khe San or heavy low altitude w
45 Dougloid : I'm quite sure it will be a fine aircraft, m'good fellow. Nobody suggested otherwise-in fact, I really couldn't care because we aren't going to buy i
46 Tancrede : With a maximum payload of 30 t, it is clear that it cannot carry any MBTs. But, it is also clear that the Europeans don't see any necessity to send ab
47 Dougloid : Who said anything about sending them abroad, m'good fellow? See, it's like this. You build and buy for the maximum tonnage you anticipate, whether it
48 Tancrede : You cannot compare distances and geographical specifics between Canada and Europe. Here, distances are shorts and if we are considering bringing an M
49 Agill : Tancrede: Stop using "Europe" when you mean france. A lot of countries here would love the C-17. Not saying that the A-400 is bad, just that it's a bi
50 RAPCON : Tancrede means no harm in his use of "Europe". It is very Gaullist to use the term "France" and mean "Europe." In the Gaullist context that only "Fra
51 Agill : And France wih non-capital F was completely unintentional, if anyone wonder. Am sitting with a laptop and me and the keyboard are not friends at all S
52 Post contains images Tancrede : You are wrong. I was thinking in the Napoleonic Europe. I do wonder from where I heard previously the name of Jean Baptiste Jules Bernadotte. Wasn't
53 RAPCON : ...about as high as the odds of the French Army sending LeClercs to Chad!!
54 DL021 : No. But the French may want to send some LeClercs to the next peace action in a hurry and they'll be stuck chartering a boat. The kind of conflict th
55 Dougloid : They would need em for survival...paint em yellow and put hack lights on top LOL. Yeah. It was something other than sugar.
56 Post contains images Tancrede : The usual way has been to send troops and logistics by plane to the crisis spot and tanks, if needed, by ships. Where I don’t follow you is that if
57 GDB : But how often do types that CAN carry a MBT, have actually ever done so operationally? How many M1's were airlifted to Saudi in 1990/1 or 2003? MBT's
58 Post contains images Lumberton : I'm not a ground pounder, but I believe the smallest MBT manuever unit is a company, comprised of 4 tanks. The MBT example is an extreme one, but IMO
59 Post contains links and images Agill : Yes our King has French roots. But I guess most european royalty is so inbred that they could be considered a species of their own No the Leo2s are p
60 DL021 : Perhaps sticking to facts rather than wishes of your own would be more useful to this particular thread. I'm just laying out the realities. The A400
61 Dougloid : The reasons you buy a cargo plane are the cube it can carry, the weight it can lift, it's range, and the size of the anticipated load. In this respect
62 Lumberton : And...its ability to operate near the combat zone on hastily prepared and short airstrips. Fewer trips to deliver more supplies is a good thing in th
63 Post contains links Tancrede : Until now there have been no needs to bring MBTs areas of operation in Africa. And I surely doubt that it will happen in the near future. If you check
64 DL021 : Once again...you must look at the areas of operation and the missions being run today. France needs the armor and support in Afghanistan and Djibouti
65 Post contains links Texfly101 : I think it was more for the the Puma. I'll look into it and see if I can get back the report on the added capability, but for right now, check this o
66 L-188 : The F-14D upgrade was on budget and schedule, so Cheney canceled that one.
67 Agill : Apparently our defence force thinks so and I think they are better suited than either you or me to make that call.
68 GDB : ANY upgrade to European airlift is welcome. Most have chosen A400M as the affordable (in decent numbers) mainstay, providing more than a similar numbe
69 Lumberton : Geographically, you may be correct, but IIRC New York had a Republican senator at the time, who was very influential in these matters, Hugh D'Amato.
70 Post contains links Revelation : Indeed. Boeing just took a "charge for $496 million to cover delays of up to 18 months in an international airborne surveillance system for Australia
71 BHMBAGLOCK : In the 30s, most people here thought that Japan, China, and Europe/France were "well outside of our primary interests". Attitudes like this have a wa
72 Post contains images AutoThrust : Short translation from german N-TV: They said EADS/ Airbus are monitoring all projects (A380,A350XBW,A400M)to do analysis of production and processes
73 DL021 : I hope everyone understands that the F-14D was going to be done down in Florida. Same place they ended up building the Hawkeye 2000s. It was going to
74 Lumberton : EADS' stock is down over 2% as I write this due to news in a French newspaper that the A400 is to be delayed by up to 24 months. This is according to
75 Post contains links and images Lumberton : Here we go again.... Report: A400M Program Facing Delay "Yes, it will!" "No, it won't!" OK, EADS, settle this soon or the market value of your stock w
76 Post contains links Columba : A400 Cockpit Mock Up http://airbusmilitary.com/images/class2cockpit.jpg First delivery of A400M Nose fuselage The first nose assembly is deliveredThe
77 Post contains links DEVILFISH : Maybe this would help a little..... http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...08+maiden+flight%2c+as+new+UK.html
78 N328KF : With today's announcement (re: A380 EIS delay by another 12 months), this thread is looking far more prescient.
79 Post contains links Osiris30 : New info from Streiff on the 400M (which makes it sound like it will end up being late, and might lose them money/not make them very much): http://www
80 Post contains links and images Lumberton : Another article that mentions the A400 challenges: http://www.heraldnet.com/stories/06/10/06/100bus_airbus001.cfm The mention of profit is curious. Do
81 Post contains links Osiris30 : It seems to be a distinct possibility. Here's the reported price: (from the below article) To make things more confusing: http://www.todayonline.com/
82 Post contains links Tak : Hi Guys, a bit unrelated, but just found a review of a flight simulator for the A400. Kinda funny considering it has not even flown yet. Sounds like a
83 Post contains links DEVILFISH : Here's the latest on the A-400M from Flightglobal..... http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...ge+emerges%2c+on+eve+of+major.html
84 Lumberton : IOC in 3 years with the French Air Force.
85 N328KF : Geez, what is it with EADS and gestation periods? Admittedly, much of this holdup has to do with getting the Bundestag to pay their bills, but still..
86 Post contains links Lumberton : Update. The French government says it expects the A400 to be delivered on time. No sign of Airbus A400m delays, 1st delivery seen 2009 - French govt b
87 N328KF : On time...after the first set of delays, you mean. Though, those delays were imposed by bureaucracy, not Airbus itself.
88 RichardPrice : Its on time according the the timeline in the contracts that were signed in 2003. As you say, the 'delays' prior to that were nothing to do with EADs
89 Post contains links and images Keesje : so the 3 yr delay story that made some here shamelessly dance proved to be a canard.. anyway they are putting together the static test frame: http://w
90 Post contains images Dougloid : Well, Jeez, Keez. It only took you six weeks to dig up a riposte here. Your diligence shines through. BTW did that check from Toulouse arrive OK?
91 RichardPrice : Why pick on Keesje specifically? This thread has 'died' at least twice before, once for a month and once for nearly a month and a half, and each time
92 Scouseflyer : What a strange looking fuse - it looks bendy in the middle and has a A310 cockpit!
93 Dougloid : You call that picking on someone? You guys really can't take a joke. You're too thin skinned by half.
94 RichardPrice : If you call that a joke, your sense of humour is extremely dry.
95 Post contains images Dougloid : Typical american shop floor humor, nothing more. No 'fense meant.
96 Post contains images RichardPrice : No problem then
97 Post contains links PADSpot : Airbus Military set up a website about the progress made in the A400M programme. There are tons of pictures in "Industrial Gallery".
98 Post contains links Lumberton : Airbus is confirming an "approximate" 3 month delay on the final assembly. No impact expected on deliveries: http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ls
99 Dougloid : I was doing a little noodling around and I found an article about how the TP400 beat out an offering from P&W Canada. Doesn't it seem as if Canada wou
100 PADSpot : By ordering at max 20 frames you won't get 20-25% of the A400M program's value. edit: ... as long as don't pay a ridiculously high price for the rest
101 Prebennorholm : A few posters have mentioned Denmark in relation to the C-17. I must say that this is not relevant. We have our new C-130Js, and there are no plans f
102 PADSpot : I see trees of green, red roses too I see them bloom for me and you And I think to myself, what a wonderful world I see skies of blue and clouds of w
103 Post contains links Lumberton : The story of A400 delays is NOT going away. Here's a Reuters report that says the delay will be 3 months--possibly one year! http://yahoo.reuters.com/
104 Post contains links Lumberton : And here's EADS' denial, 24 hours later. http://yahoo.reuters.com/news/articl...21_L27508749&type=comktNews&rpc=44
105 Post contains links BoomBoom : http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=109602
106 Post contains images Dougloid : Differences of opinion between Airbus and its suppliers are resolved by applying two simple rules: 1. Airbus is always right and the supplier is alway
107 Post contains links Zeke : http://www.eads.com/1024/en/pressdb/...rcraft/20070427_a400m_on_time.html "A400M Delivery Programme On Time Toulouse, 27 April 2007 A Reuters news age
108 Dougloid : Like I said, refer to Rule number one.
109 PADSpot : Don't see how your "rule number one" is related to what Zeke quoted?! I really need to second him. The only sentence we should judge Airbus by in the
110 Zvocio79 : I heard the Chilean air-force was interested on buying two of those A400M a/c, but they cancelled. also....why do European react so quick to criticize
111 Post contains images Dougloid : Let's take a rain check here and have this conversation a few months hence. It should be interesting. There have been other instances of categorical
112 Post contains links Lumberton : An article in Flight today cites engine problems will delay the first flight. Airbus remains confident that the first delivery will be on schedule. ht
113 Dougloid : Interesting article. The engine for this bird is something of a one off. Nobody's got a use for 15,000 shp turboprops that I know of. That means prod
114 KC135TopBoom : Hmmmmmmmm, The B-787 is in the paint shop, roll out is in just 11 days. First flight is scheduled for late August or early to mid September. Airbus i
115 Post contains images Keesje : I think the A400 will be a succes, delays won´t stop it. We will probably see this aircraft around for more then 50 yrs, flying under national flags
116 BigJKU : Keesje, Please define what makes the A400M a strategic cargo plane? I am really curious about what capability the A400M has that makes it strategic an
117 Keesje : I think th Herc & A400 have generally the same configuration, there it stops. The A400 carries nearly double the payload, flies 100kts faster and can
118 Dougloid : That doesn't square with published information and I intend to research that. Stand by for facts. On the other hand, whatever the A400M turns out to
119 474218 : You have written this entire paragraph in present tense. The A400 has not yet been built so you should have written it will carry....., it will opera
120 Post contains links and images Keesje : Don't bother, I looked it up. The A400M looks like the Herc but it's a lot bigger.. E.g. the prop is 17.5 ft.. I used to do a project on the T56-A14
121 BigJKU : Lets see what we can actually get in there. Tanks are out. Lets look at IFV. The Warrior will fit, so that is good but I can only carry one. I cannot
122 Post contains links and images Keesje : The C-141 spend 30 years serving as a strategic transport. The A400m has a wider cabin and the C-141 and more range then the C-17. It can carry e.g. t
123 Dougloid : The largest aircraft I ever ran up was a Douglas DC3-actually got to taxi it. I did test bed runs on a dynamometer truck but they were only 1100 hp.
124 R2rho : Totally correct. I don't know how France and Germany can still survive on those C-160s... it's ridiculous! That's right. And the A400M falls within t
125 PADSpot : While presenting half-year financial results EADS CEO's admitted that the FIRST FLIGHT WILL TAKE PLACE IN SUMMER 2008, that in CANNOT BE RULED OUT THA
126 Post contains images AutoThrust : Really bad, what a disappointment was hoping this year. Shame on Europrop and Airbus.
127 Lumberton : I just realized that I started this thread a year ago! Now, after all the denials, it appears that this thing will be delayed after all.
128 Keesje : Like the e.g. 787 nothing is firm. My guess : it will be delayed & everybody knows / expected it. They have been in militairy programs before..
129 KC135TopBoom : What good is that going to do. The EU will not need to support Canada or Mexico, as the US is not very likly to go to war with either of our friends
130 PADSpot : First there wasn't an turboprop engine that powerful ever before in the western world (not even in Canada), second they meanwhile concretized the rea
131 BigJKU : Huh? That is all well and good but I am not sure what in the world it has to do with the A400M hauling 20 tons that distance. During any way you need
132 Post contains images USAF336TFS : Here's a surprise Keesje... I'm going to dispute some of your suggestions. Can you share the data that the A400M will out sell the C-17? All the evid
133 PADSpot : It appears to me that you don't have a clue about the extent of combat-relevant supplies that Europe receives "over the Atlantic" these days. It's no
134 Post contains links Lumberton : Flight Global on the delay. Also raises the potential for late deliveries! Perhaps its time to get their chief sales person on the Airbus commercial s
135 Post contains images LTU932 : Nah, I'd rather see a few C-17s flying for the GAF instead of the C-130. BTW: Hasn't the A400M been delayed for years before first metal cut and fina
136 Post contains links and images Pygmalion : Well, according to AirbusMilitary, they are using Airbus commercial practices... AirbusMilitary Maybe Leahy was in charge... that explains alot.
137 Post contains images PADSpot : , they need something that can at least eat a 40'' container and take it to Afghanistan non-stop. That is what Ilyushins do now and it goes way faste
138 Columba : Well France has also C130s, 707s and A340s while Germany has the A310MRT(T)s. Does not the Luftwaffe use the A310s for those missions ? I take either
139 PADSpot : Yes, I think there is a weekly CGN-IAD-ELP-IAD-CGN run. It operates since long, until 1998 with B707 and in the past also supplied all the other GE t
140 Post contains links and images Zeke : from http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...y-for-start-of-final-assembly.html "The final assembly of the first A400M military transporter aircraft c
141 Post contains links TexL1649 : It is really a shame no manufacturer has stepped up to provide an affordable, new-build outsize cargo strategic lifter. C-17 is nice for what it does,
142 Zwaving : That may be so but Airbus is the only one that threatens with lawsuits when you do not include them at the table even if they have nothing there to e
143 Moo : Really? MDHI and Lockheed had a lot to say about the EADS UH-145 LUH contract win last year, despite MDHI offering something they could not deliver.
144 PADSpot : Do Airbus' complaints have anything to do with the revelation of the "affair" that finally led to the tanker competition being restarted? Just asking
145 Post contains links Lumberton : First flight delay to July 2008. http://www.reuters.com/article/marke...sNews/idUKL1535243820071015?rpc=44
146 Post contains links Zeke : On the same note, the UK MOD asked the RAF to study a potential delay. " U.K. Studies Effect of A400M Delay on RAF Transport 10/12/2007 The British g
147 Revelation : That's interesting. I wonder if the weight gain has to do with IEDs. What I've been reading, though, is the insurgents have a good answer to increase
148 PADSpot : The weight increase of armored vehicles has of course to do with IEDs. Typical MRAPs weigh up to 25tonnes which is too much for the Herc. Typical APC
149 Post contains links Lumberton : Sounds like EADS is going to comment on the delay issue tomorrow. http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/071016/airbus_a400m.html?.v=3
150 Post contains links and images Lumberton : Here's a link with more links on the FRES. http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...l-armored-vehicle-contracts-01130/ [Edited 2007-10-16 15:46:04]
151 Post contains images Columba : Again it was a dumb idea not to lease any C130J or C17 as an interim solution for the GAF
152 PADSpot : Lockheed Martin's leasing offer of was a joke. It would had virtually enforced the purchase of the airframes after the leasing had expired. The entir
153 Columba : Absolutely, I think it is really funny that the Luftwaffe only has the Transall while other countries have either smaller of larger aircraft above or
154 Lumberton : This would seem to be the opportune time to pick up some C-17s. However, the French were faced with a similar situation to look for an "interim" solu
155 Post contains links Lumberton : EADS is now confirming not only the delay, but performance shortfalls in the first 6-8 aircraft. The article also notes that these miscues could trigg
156 PADSpot : hmm. I think Airbus can feel pretty safe. After reading the Armed Forces Plan 2008 twice, I cannot imagine how some could squeeze any multi-billion-E
157 Post contains links Zeke : EADS did not say a lot of that....what they did say .... from http://www.eads.com/1024/en/pressdb/...ssdb/EADS/20071017_eads_a400m.html Sash Tusa doe
158 R2rho : I agree with you on that, but... Yes they did. There was another thread around here about the A400M countries (except UK of course) trying to block N
159 Post contains links Lumberton : EADS is reporting that the delay on the A400 could costs USD$2 billion/euro 1.4billion. The stock as of this writing is not reacting well to the news.
160 KC135TopBoom : It seems to me the supply line problems the B-787 program is having, with it's 6 month delay is a lot more complicated than those of the A-400M progr
161 474218 : EADS announced today (Monday November 5, 2007) that delays in a A400M program will cost between 1.2 and 1.4 billion Euros.
162 DEVILFISH : How would that affect the A400M unit flyaway cost?
163 JayinKitsap : Currently there are orders for around 190, say 200. The $2B cost impact adds $10M to each of the 200. If a fixed price contract the cost to the custo
164 Post contains links and images KC135TopBoom : http://www.reuters.com/article/marke...78220120071017?rpc=44&pageNumber=2 "Another brokerage analyst said the figure could be higher, while Goldman Sa
165 PADSpot : All contracts I know of were fixed price contracts.
166 Lumberton : Which explains the write off by EADS? If they don't get this thing right, and soon, then there will likely be more impacts on their stock price. So G
167 TexL1649 : The 'fixed price' over-runs eventually will be charged to the taxpayers, either contractually, or as shareholders. Congrats again EADS/France/Germany
168 HanginOut : I only wish that Canada had decided to purchase the AN-70. I think that it would have worked beautifully in conjunction with the C-17 fleet.
169 Post contains links Lumberton : Well, it seems this is the week to get the bad news out. USD$1.30 to 1 Euro! EADS to lower sales forecast on Thurdsday-paper
170 F27Friendship : just to throw another rock in the pond: isn't this exactly why the KC-30 will not be chosen by the USAF?
171 TexL1649 : Well, a. No, I kind of think/hope that the KC-30 will be chosen, and I am admittedly a cheerleader for this selection. I have been accused of being ov
172 Lumberton : Could you explain how the engines are outdated? The proposed P&W engines are contemporary with their GE counterpart, so if they are "outdated", are n
173 PADSpot : Not insulated, but they simply don't see this as a financial investment. It's a strategic investment to secure national interests. They don't want to
174 Post contains links Lumberton : This Reuters report advises that EADS wants the "buying organization" to share the "burden". EADS wants talks on sharing A400M cost burden I read this
175 R2rho : Well, the truth is that the delay is to blame on the governments as well, not just EADS / Airbus and their development problems. They have all been v
176 Lumberton : I'm curious as to what this would do to the unit cost? At the end of the day, when the first aircraft flies for the French air force, will this thing
177 F27Friendship : I read this as another 1.37 B cost for EADS, in other words, money they have to spend?
178 PADSpot : That number has probably a lot of constituents. Interests, depreciation, costs for money not received, additional costs for development etc. pp.
179 TexL1649 : In truth, the flying aircraft will cost the governments much more per unit than any C-17 purchase might have cost. The goal of the development, howev
180 Post contains images Lumberton : Frankly, it's their money and they can do with it as they please. What riles me is when I have someone from across the pond telling us that we should
181 Post contains images Keesje : Yes and replace a couple of hundred hercs, transal etc. in the process The c-17 is twice as big / expensive & has limited range & reached the end of
182 LTU932 : Wait a minute. The C-17 is still a relatively new aircraft for military standards. How can it be at the end of its life cycle by now?
183 Lumberton : The contention that it's at the end of it's life cycle is utter nonsense and meant to be inflammatory. Forty years from now it will still outperform
184 Post contains images KC135TopBoom : Well, let's wait until the flight tests are in. IIRC, the MD-11 promised all kinds of performance, based on wind tunnel testing, but in the real worl
185 Post contains links Keesje : Check the facts first. The McDonnell-Douglas YC-15 design from the seventies was used as the basis for the C-17. MC Donneel Douglas was contracted 26
186 Lumberton : You are confused. The "life cycle" refers to cradle-to-grave. If the C-141 is any indication, this bird will have 40 years worth of flying. Your stat
187 Post contains links and images Keesje : You may not believe so, but in europe they have some scientist too that make computer models (apart from powerpoints). These mathematical models are
188 Post contains images Lumberton : Get the engine problems fixed. As Boeing is finding out on the 787, models are great, but it's the execution that counts.
189 LTU932 : Not to mention that military aircraft in general have a much longer "life cycle" than civil aircraft. Nevertheless, the most accurate data you can ge
190 Post contains images Keesje : Laboratory conditions have their advantages, out there it´s always different conditions and you can´t check everything, that would become unsafe
191 F27Friendship : I did not say this; It's Lumberton's question I guess a lot of people now working on A400M are drawn from the Defence & Security division, as they do
192 Post contains images KC135TopBoom : How can yopu have depreciation on something that isn't even built yet? Oh, wilipedia? Now there is a source we al;l can trust. BTW, Keesje, the YC-15
193 F27Friendship : Both X-35 and X-32 were extensively windtunnel tested in Amsterdam by NLR. F-35 windtunnel test have been going on massively ever since in Amsterdam.
194 Keesje : Still it was tested in the Netherlands years ago as many other US militaru aircraft, don´t know why.. Now I can start a line on dramatic development
195 F27Friendship : because the NLR is among the world's leading aeronautical research institutes. In addition to that, windtunnels were overbooked in the US. When the b
196 PADSpot : Apart from manufacturing equipment, test rigs etc accounting rules allow for some tricks that enable you to see a development process as something li
197 KC135TopBoom : You forgot the F-22. Yes, that is what you get when you have open records available to the public. Now in the case of Airbus, where a lot of influenc
198 R2rho : A LOT. The A400M is very low on the priority list for Airbus right now. Getting the A380 fixed was priority number one, and now that it's done, it's
199 Silentbob : Even better to get your act together and not lose anything.
200 PADSpot : It takes 5-6 years to get an engineer through university, thus the amount of engineers available is fixed. We have anyway a shortage in engineers rig
201 KC135TopBoom : Aren't there still a lot of Russian aeronautical engineers still out of work in Russia that can be recruited by EADS/Airbus, and Boeing as well?
202 Lumberton : AFAIK, many of them are already employed by both OEMs I read recently where Boeing has had a shop in Russia for quite some time.
203 F27Friendship : c'mon man, this is bollocks. Those numbers are quite well known, the exact numbers confidential (as they are for boeing for any commercial program) a
204 Max78 : Airbus Military is reponsible for at least 1b€ of the additional cost and they will try to charge the 0.5 to 1b€ remaining to sby..... I dont bel
205 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : I am not talking about the sales contract prices per airplane, and you know that. I am talking about the total costs, and return on the program. So w
206 Post contains links Zeke : You can get all the financial data for EADS off their internet site, it is also a publicly listed company on the German, French, and Spanish stock ex
207 R2rho : So getting back on topic... Yes, the A400M has a big delay. Much unlike all US military programs of the past, which have been on time, have never enco
208 F27Friendship : to be fair, that's not entirely true. CASA (Spanish part of EADS) has been building turbo-prop military airlifters all the time, and the French and G
209 Post contains links and images Zeke : Some good news for the A400M from http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...11/on-its-own-fourteen-wheels.html
210 Baroque : That spat reminds me a bit of a long argument we had in an international organization where the (German) treasurer kept on telling the rest of the ad
211 KC135TopBoom : I have to agree with you there. Politicians, yours and mine, do work off their own (narrow) agendas, and keep reality out of the cycle. Yes, it is go
212 Post contains links LTU932 : Even better news: The first Europrop TP-400 has been delivered to Marshall Aerospace and awaits installation on a modified C-130K for flighttesting.
213 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : Finally......... "EADS in late October announced a delay of up to one year to the start of A400M deliveries to launch user the French air force, with
214 XT6Wagon : Anyone got a time line comparison, as the last time Airbus blamed an engine-maker for delays it turned out they had a full ship set of engines sittin
215 Post contains images Iwok : So EADS has a valuation of $3333 Billion You must have meant 6% Well, if you call a 20-year delay for the V22 on time, then I agree with you iwok
216 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Huh? Why am I being quoted? B4e-Forever New Frontiers
217 KC135TopBoom : There were no orders from the USMC or USAF during that developement time, just like the F-22, there were no orders for airplanes before 1999, with fi
218 Post contains links Texl1649 : Interesting Boeing slide/sales pitch at page 13; http://www.boeing.com/news/feature/p...s07/assets/c-17_media_briefing.pdf 2 C-17's, equivalent to 4 A
219 F27Friendship : yeah, it also says they could sell it to the Netherlands and that it operates at the same airfields as C-130 do.
220 Post contains images PADSpot : Please call me the day they write "Dear Customer, please go to Airbus. Their product is far superior." Will you?
221 TexL1649 : I didn't say I agreed, it's just an interesting presentation/sales pitch. Judging from the lack of content in the two (Europe-based) critiques, I'm gu
222 PADSpot : We're having this conversation now at least since I am on this forum, probably even longer. And it makes me yawn that we are still not past the point
223 PPVRA : Sweet! I love the looks of that plane, hope to see it flying very soon!
224 Lumberton : Which is why the U.S. Army and USAF are purchasing C-27Js, which along with the C-130 fleet should be able to handle it for the foreseeable future.[E
225 TexL1649 : It will be fun if Airbus ever moves into the "real world experience of users" phase of the A400 program. You certainly can't do it all on C-17's, but
226 R2rho : One of the things said by EADS in favor of the A400M adresses precisely this issue: it's not about whether or not you can land on an unprepared strip
227 KC135TopBoom : Even though the A-400M, C-17A/ER/B, C-27J and C-130J/-30J are all built to operate to and from auster runways, none of them can do it continously. At
228 F27Friendship : another issue is the A400M being made out of composite. I've seen pictures of RAF hercs in Afghanistan with lots of bumps and puts in the fuselage be
229 KC135TopBoom : Good point. Even though composites are normally a good thing to make airplanes out of, in this case, it isn't.
230 EBJ1248650 : A question comes to mind, as applied to military and civilian aircraft: How hard are composite structures to repair? I'd think they'd crack before th
231 PADSpot : Concerning the composites vs. metal issue, I would argue that although composite damage is more severe and probably harder to repair, it does not bre
232 F27Friendship : It's very hard to notice damage in the first place, because delamiation starts on the inside, where you don;t see it. Additionally it is much harder
233 Post contains links PADSpot : The impact strength depends on the type of composite (the type method of lamination, number of layers, type of resin used, type of fiber used etc.) a
234 Post contains links DEVILFISH : This 30 Nov report says the complete wing was already installed..... http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...4X8AAAEAAHE3GiYAAAAC&modele=jdc_34 A400M
235 KC135TopBoom : So are the wings the only composit parts, or is the fuselage all composit, too.
236 PADSpot : All composite.
237 Dougloid : That's a little confusing. Are you saying that the fuselage is all composites?
238 PADSpot : Most of the fuselage and wings are made of composites, CFRP to be precise.
239 KC135TopBoom : Thanks............. Do you know if autoclaves are used to "cook" the composit materials, like those of the B-787?
240 F27Friendship : it does matter how you build it with respect how the energy is dissipated into the structure. You don;t want your cargo to fly around with every roug
241 Dougloid : Well, I know that the wing and cargo door are made of CFRP. You're quite sure the fuselage is as well?
242 Post contains images KC135TopBoom : LOL, yes you are right about that.
243 Post contains links PADSpot : Here is extremely detailed article bout the composite fabrication process of the cargo door. http://www.compositesworld.com/hpc/issues/2007/May/11153
244 KC135TopBoom : I notice they are using metal fasteners, instead of composite fasteners Boeing is using on the B-787. Well, that solves that problem, maybe Boeing sho
245 Dougloid : Sounds similar to the process used for making cross country skis that I saw on How It's Made. I fail to see how this is a patentable idea although I
246 Post contains links Lumberton : Update from Flight Global. The earliest projection for first flight is late July 2008. http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...mains-critical-path-for-
247 BHMBAGLOCK : Boeing does use metal fasteners on the V-22(probably other composite a/c as well). Presumably they have a good reason to switch.
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