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Another IAF Apache Down.  
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 4 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4106 times:

Another IAF Apache helicopter has crashed in Israel hitting a powerline, no fatalities reported.

46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12171 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (8 years 4 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4101 times:

Fox News is now reporting the crew did not survive. Hezbolah is claiming they shot down the AH-64A. IDF is reporting the first indications seem to point to a mechanical problem caused to accident.

User currently offlineMigfan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 4 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4096 times:

Perhaps the IASF should buy some Hinds ???

/M


User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (8 years 4 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4049 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
Fox News is now reporting the crew did not survive. Hezbolah is claiming they shot down the AH-64A

Actually I'm hearing it's an AH-64D Apache Longbow (113 Sqn). The two that collided last week were As. Officials say whatever happened, it took place too high for the cause to be power lines (Maybe it just hit some on the way down?).

Edit: http://edition.cnn.com/video/player/.../newton.israel.helicopter.crash.ap


LY744.

[Edited 2006-07-24 18:07:16]


Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineSpacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2969 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (8 years 4 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3955 times:

Quoting Migfan (Reply 2):
Perhaps the IASF should buy some Hinds ???

Who the hell are the IASF and why would they need Hinds?



The last of the famous international playboys
User currently offlineAislepathLight From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 562 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3929 times:

When I googled IASF I got

  • Indian-American Scholarship Fund
  • NATTO - International Security Assistance Force (ISAF)
  • International Shark Attack File

I don't think that was what he meant to say... perhaps IAF? They have Apaches Longbows, which are much nicer. After all, the Russians are replacing theirs, why would someone want to by any?



"We have slain a large dragon, but we now live in a jungle filled with a bewildering variety of poisonous snakes."
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3914 times:

Unfotunatly the initial report was wrong, both pilots died, Zvi Luft and Tom Farkash, may their souls rest in peace.

User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4936 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (8 years 4 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3900 times:

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 4):
Who the hell are the IASF and why would they need Hinds?

Israel Air & Space (or AeroSpace?) Force, a newfangled name. Maybe to distinguish it from India or Indonesia and the other "I" countries' air arms. I assume Migfan was kidding or being ironic.  Smile

[Edited 2006-07-25 09:41:05]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineAn225 From Israel, joined May 2005, 198 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 4 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3850 times:

The Israeli media are reporting that the reason for such a disaster may be :
* Technical malfunction;
* Human error (highly unlikely, if you ask me)
* Friendly fire - the Apache is hit by an MLRS rocket. This sounds crazy but who knows?

The IAF says it couldn't be from Hizbulla fire since this Apache was #2 in the formation.


User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (8 years 4 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3806 times:

Coincidentaly, both Apache crashes involved high ranking officers in the IDF/AF (O-6). The Colonel involved in the mid-air was injured, the one in yesterday's accident, as we know, perished. The co-pilot in yesterday's crash was Canadian born. Just FYI tidbits.

Quoting An225 (Reply 8):
Friendly fire - the Apache is hit by an MLRS rocket. This sounds crazy but who knows?

Many years ago and IDF/AF F-4E was "shot down" by an artillery shell fired by in a training exercise. The crew survived.


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineSpacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2969 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (8 years 4 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3776 times:

Quoting LY744 (Reply 9):
Many years ago and IDF/AF F-4E was "shot down" by an artillery shell fired by in a training exercise. The crew survived.

And in 1982, an IDF Cobra was accidentally shot down by friendly tank fire. Not sure on the crew status.

Quoting AislepathLight (Reply 5):
When I googled IASF I got



Indian-American Scholarship Fund

NATTO - International Security Assistance Force (ISAF)

International Shark Attack File

I think the last one is the most probable!



The last of the famous international playboys
User currently offlineAislepathLight From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 562 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 4 months 3 days ago) and read 3771 times:

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 10):

I think the last one is the most probable!

Yeah, that is it! I think our Mig was a little confused!



"We have slain a large dragon, but we now live in a jungle filled with a bewildering variety of poisonous snakes."
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3579 times:

Another helicopter has been hit by a missle and crashed, 5 IAF soldiers onboard, one female, she was a flightmechanic, the first female IDF soldier to be killed in
this war. Hizbollah claim it was a new missle called Waad that brought down the helicopter.


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3526 times:

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 12):
Hizbollah claim it was a new missle called Waad that brought down the helicopter.

Could have been a lucky shot by an RPG; or an SA-7. More worrisome would be if Syria is supplying the SA-18.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineMigfan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3508 times:

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 4):
Who the hell are the IASF and why would they need Hinds?

I am not confused, just adding a bit of irony.

A hind is much more resistant to gound fire (AAA) than an AH-64. Cheaper too.

/M


User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3411 times:

Quoting LY744 (Reply 9):
Many years ago and IDF/AF F-4E was "shot down" by an artillery shell fired by in a training exercise. The crew survived.

The definition of bad luck. Given the size of an artillery shell, the size of an F-4 and the "size" of the sky. Chances are one to a trillion to get hit ... after that I would definitely become religious!

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 4):
Who the hell are the IASF and why would they need Hinds?

Hinds have a good reputation for being quite bullet proof. It doesn't take much to shoot down an Apache, Cobra or whatever western made combat helicopter with a single shot from an AK-47. It needs a bit more to shoot down a Mi-24 ...

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 13):
Could have been a lucky shot by an RPG; or an SA-7. More worrisome would be if Syria is supplying the SA-18.

Though it would be worrisome, it doesn't change much much for the Israeli pilots. They anticipate to be engaged with SA-7s anyway ... To know that there are SA-18s on the ground probably just makes them more focused ...


User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3408 times:

Lumb, I read in Israeli media that the helicopter has just dropped off 35 IDF soldiers into Lebanon and just flown 20 seconds when it was hit.

User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3394 times:

[quote=Alessandro,reply=16]
Yes, I saw that as well. Apparently there were 5 crew members still onboard when it went down. The news over here has reported that the bodies weren't recovered so I would guess that it's in Hizbollah held territory.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3370 times:

With at least 35 IDF soldiers on the ground? I think they probably was burnt to
beyond recognition?


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3362 times:

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 18):
With at least 35 IDF soldiers on the ground? I think they probably was burnt to beyond recognition?

Hard to say since we don't know at what point in the mission it was downed.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3261 times:

Just 20 seconds after liftoff when they had dropped off 35 IDF soldiers in Lebanon.

User currently offlineOD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1925 posts, RR: 32
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3252 times:

20 seconds after liftoff is enough for the helicopter to travel at least a few hundred meters.

By the way, Hezbollah claimed they shot it with a Raad missile. But Raad is the AT-3 Sagger missile! How would they shoot down a helicopter with an anti-tank missile?
The Israelis said it was brought down so it couldn't have been on the ground at the time it was hit.
Have they recovered the wreckage? They failed to do so before the cease-fire.


User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3250 times:

I thought the missle was called Waad?

User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3234 times:

Quoting OD720 (Reply 21):
How would they shoot down a helicopter with an anti-tank missile?

Tanks are moving targets too.


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3223 times:

Quoting OD720 (Reply 21):
How would they shoot down a helicopter with an anti-tank missile?

IMO, it would be easier than an RPG, and that's happened on occasion. ATMs are either wire or laser guided and fly faster than a helo. Depending on it's flight profile, it is quite possible.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
25 Bennett123 : Am I missing something here, an AH64 that was carrying 35 troops.
26 OD720 : You're right, I got confused with these new arab names. Quite interesting. Thanks.
27 Post contains links Alessandro : Bennet, I dont know the type of helo which crashed in Lebanon, anyway two of the five crew are buried in Israel today see http://www.jpost.com/servlet
28 Spacepope : The most recent helo to get shot down was a CH-53, which surely explains the 20 troop payload.
29 Post contains images LY744 : Now that I'm back from my ban ( ) I'll try to aleviate the confusion: The -53 was carrying a load of troops into the area as part of the second stage
30 Lumberton : I'm inclined to agree with you. My guess would be the Russian 'Kornet". It's laser guided and the Israeli's have said that the Syrian's provided thes
31 Spacepope : Iranians are making a TOW missile copy as well, and I've seen some empty tubes in photos of overrun hezbollah positions. Might be a little easier to u
32 LY744 : Yeah there's plenty of TOWs to go around, mostly Iranian copies, but some may be U.S. made ones, that could have fallen between the cracks when the I
33 Lumberton : There was a news report after the "cease fire" that indicated that Israeli forces had captured several Kornet's intact.
34 LongbowPilot : ROFL, you keep telling yourself that about the Hind...
35 Spacepope : I'll give you the cheaper part. AH-64s are plenty resistant to groundfire. The A models were tested to the extent that the rotor spar was hit with an
36 Post contains images LY744 : However, it's hard to deny that the -64 has a surprisingly bad record in peace time. I was looking a batch of Apaches up on Joe Baugher's list one da
37 Post contains links Lumberton : I hate to crash the MI-24 love fest here... Check this out: http://www.answers.com/topic/mil-mi-24 I haven't seen the Joe Baugher list you allude to,
38 Post contains links LY744 : " target=_blank>http://www.answers.com/topic/mil-mi-24 Doesn't say anything about the Hind lacking in the reliability department. http://home.att.net/
39 Lumberton : Not sure if this impacts on "reliability", but this aircraft isn't the panacea for all battlefield ills that some here think. I'd certainly be concer
40 Post contains images LY744 : Have fun! LY744.
41 Bennett123 : I think that the Hind is designed to be operated differently that the AH64. Less of a tank killer, more of a tank replacer. This would mean less nap o
42 Lumberton : IIRC, space to transport 8 fully equipped troops as well. Maybe some of the ground pounders here can detail the operational concept behind the Hind?
43 Post contains images Bennett123 : AH1 + UH1 rolled into 1.
44 LongbowPilot : Bingo Bennet, it is a flying Tank/APC. Apache is a Tank Killer, but also serves as CAS, Armed Escort, Recon, you name it. The only thing it DOESn't d
45 Rolfen : Hahaha yeah everyone knows israelis are a superior breed. I could bet that its number 2. What sort of malfunction could make it hit a power line and
46 AeroWeanie : Wrong - Boeing and the IAF are now saying that it was a technical problem. Something went wrong and caused the entire rotor assembly to come off the
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