RAFOHunter From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 18 posts, RR: 0 Posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Does anyone know if any of the few remaining Lebanese Hawker Hunters, or indeed any aircraft, survived this latest round of bombing of the airfields before the UN ceasefire?
Migfan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (5 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
My bet is that they are either destroyed or grounded due to lack of spares. The pilots may also be suffering from lack of hours. I know that the Lebanese AF bought a few Robinson R44s last year.
OD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1904 posts, RR: 43 Reply 5, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting RAFOHunter (Reply 4): OD720 - Any idea which Hunters were sold for parts and where or who they were sold to?
I have no idea. I have got the info some time ago through former pilots. I don't know how many are still stored at the Rayak AF Base.
Though your list looks very interesting.
From memory, in 1983, there were about 6 operational Hunters with the AF but later, they bought a small number as well. A friend then told me that they were bought from Zimbabwe. Is this true?
RAFOHunter From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 18 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Here's the full listing - with corrected serials - from my book on the Hunter - "Hawker Hunter Serials 1951 to 2006" available from http://www.lulu.com/content/383300.
You will see that none of the aircraft came from Rhodesia/Zimbabwe. It seems to be an ever repeated urban myth that Rhodesia and Oman were suppliers of Hunters to many countries in the middle east and africa. Neither were, in fact they were the recipients of others countries Hunters.
LEBANON
AL QUWWAT AL JAWWIYA AL LUBNANLY
FORCE AERIENNE LIBANAISE
The Lebanese Air Force was initially supplied with 6 Hawker Hunter F.Mk.6’s from RAF stocks held in MU’s during 1958 and 1959, and these were paid for with US funds in the US Offshore Payment deal. The HSA demonstrator aircraft, G-APUX which was loaned to Iraq also was sub-leased to Lebanon and Jordan between 05-63 and 1965. Lebanese pilots were sent to Chivenor for training where they proved to be as good as the RAF pilots. The early Hunters were identifiable by their raked Lebanese flag fin insignia; later aircraft carried the horizontal flags.
Between 1965 and 1966, Lebanon received 3 T.Mk.66C’s and 4 FGA Mk.70’s converted from Belgian Aircraft, of these, 5 aircraft were lost during training. On the morning of June 5th 1967 a Lebanese Hunter was shot down by an Israeli Mirage near the Lebanon/Israel border.
A further 6 FGA Mk.70’s were ordered in 1975 from RAF stocks. 3 were delivered to Lebanon in early 1976 but the other three were delayed until after the civil war in Lebanon and were eventually delivered in 12-77.
On September 17th 1983, the Lebanese Hunters attacked Druze positions and were surprised with heavy defenses. One Hunter was shot down, the pilot managed to eject and was rescued from the sea by a US Navy SH-3D helicopter. A further Hunter was badly damaged and made a forced landing at the satellite base at Biblos. A third Hunter flew straight to Akrotiri in Cyprus where he later applied for political asylum. No record can be found of the disposition of the Hunter, although it is probable that it was handed back to Lebanon.
Examining satellite photographs of Lebanese air bases shows that there are few, if any, operational bases left untouched by at least some marks of conflict. In none of the photographs can any Hunters be seen, however if they are in storage they would be under cover, most likely in a hangar at Rayak AB. In view also of the conflict with Israel occurring in July 2006, it is unlikely that any information will be forthcoming. It remains to be seen, therefore, if any Hunters will emerge after all the conflict is finally over; but seems increasingly unlikely at this point. It is equally unlikely that any Hunters possibly still held in store could be used again. Long periods of storage require long periods of maintenance and rebuilding.
Hawker Hunter T.Mk.66A
567 ex-G-APUX Sub-leased to Lebanese Air Force by Iraq for training during 1964. Returned to HAL.
Hawker Lebanese Hunter T.Mk. 66C
Conversion order for three ex-Belgian Hunter F Mk. 6 aircraft to be Converted to two seat trainer standard (similar to that of the Indian T.Mk. 66) by Hawker Siddeley Aviation under Contract No.HSA/64/L/059 for delivery between 11-65 and 07-66.
See under;
Belgian Hunter Mk. 6s
L-280 ex-IF-34 Purchased by HSA. Converted to T.Mk.66C Delivered 27-07-66. W/O.
L-281 ex-IF- 60 Purchased by HSA. Converted to T.Mk.66C Delivered 15-11-65. W/O.
L-282 ex-IF-112 Purchased by HSA as G-9-119. Converted to T.Mk.66C Delivered 23-12-65. W/O.
Hawker Lebanese Hunter FGA Mk. 70
HSA supplied 5 F.Mk.6’s from former RAF stocks to Lebanon in 1958 as part of the US Offshore Payment deal and a further F.Mk.6 in 1962.
L-170 ex-XE598. Cen. Fuse. C/N 41H-679956. ff 16-4-56. David Lockspeiser. Delivered 11-5-56, A&AEE. Trials with gun-blast deflectors. Became Lebanese F Mk.6, 31-10-58.
L-171 ex-XF461 No.5MU, Kemble. Supplied to Lebanon in 1958 under US Offshore Payment.
L-172 ex-XE534. Cen. Fuse. C/N 41H-679909. ff 12-1-56. Duncan Simpson. Delivered 4-2-56, No.5MU, Kemble. Converted to Lebanese F.Mk.6, 22-5-62.
L-173 ex-XF377 CA aircraft, AWA, Bitteswell, 1956-57. Supplied to Lebanon in 1958 under US Offshore Payment. Crashed, on Bekka Plain while flying from Rayak, Lebanon; pilot ejected but killed. W/O, 26-3-62
L-174 ex-XG167 Delivered 18-2-57, No.5MU, Kemble. No.19 Sqn.,('F'). Supplied to Lebanon 13-10-58.
L-175 ex-XF495 No.5MU, Kemble. Supplied to Lebanon, 13-10-58 under US Offshore Payment.
Conversion order for four ex-Belgian Hunter F.Mk.6s to be refurbished and brought to full FGA Mk. 9 standard by HSA under Contract No.HSA/64/L/059, for delivery to Lebanon between 09-65 and 09-66.
See under;
Belgian Hunter F Mk. 6s
L-176 ex-IF-86. Purchased by HSA, 6-10-64, as G-9-110.Converted to Lebanese FGA Mk.70. Delivered 14-9-66.
L-177 ex-IF-96. Purchased by HSA, 7-10-64, as G-9-121. Converted to Lebanese FGA Mk.70. Delivered 14-9-65.
L-178 ex-IF-129. Purchased by HSA, 10-11-64, as G-9-102. Converted to Lebanese FGA Mk.70. Delivered 15-11-65.
L-179 ex-IF-101 Purchased by HSA as G-9-114. Converted to Lebanese FGA Mk.70.
RAF F.Mk.6’s
L-280 ex-WW598 Purchased by HSA, as G-9-424. Converted to Lebanese FGA Mk.70. Delivered 08-12-75.
L-281 ex-XF457 Purchased by HSA, as G-9-422. Converted to Lebanese FGA Mk.70. Delivered 08-12-75.
L-282 ex-WW594 Purchased by HSA, as G-9-423. Converted to Lebanese FGA Mk.70. Delivered 08-12-75.
L-283 ex-XF430 Purchased by HSA, as G-9-426. Converted to Lebanese FGA Mk.70. Delivered 17-05-77
L-284 ex-XJ644 Purchased by HSA, as G-9-427. Converted to Lebanese FGA Mk.70. Delivered 17-05-77.
L-285 ex-XJ640 Purchased by HSA, as G-9-425. Converted to Lebanese FGA Mk.70. Delivered 01-06-77.
Bennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 6006 posts, RR: 2 Reply 7, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
There is no record of a Lebanese Hunter in Wrecks & Relics, which suggests that it was returned.
The good relations between Lebanon and the US/UK at that time supports this.
Djw030468 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 50 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
OD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1904 posts, RR: 43 Reply 9, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
I've been told by a member here that he saw 2 Hunters in good condition (whatever that means) in one of the hangars at the Rayaq base during a visit back in March of this year.
RAFOHunter From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 18 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Great news to hear that there are still some left. I'm going to have to revise my entry in the book.
I don't suppose that he had any serial numbers did he?
OD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1904 posts, RR: 43 Reply 11, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
I don't think that he has the serial numbers.
How many should there still be according to your census?
About the Zimbabwe rumour, I heard this back in 1983! We were 15 year olds then and a friend of mine (also 15 at the time) knew people in the air force and he passed me this info. Neither me, nor him were aware that Zimbabwe also operated Hunters. What I mean is that there could have been some truth in it.
OD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1904 posts, RR: 43 Reply 12, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
I believe this photo was taken during the 80s.
This is the "sattelite base in Byblos" as you refer to. It was actually called the Halat strip which served as a base for the Hunters during the 80s. It was part of the high way in Byblos and developed by the help of the US, for the Hunters to operate in safety. The Beirut AF base was under the direct fire of the Druze militias.
In this photo, the Hunter is carrying rocket pods. 1000 and 500 lb retarded bombs were also used.
RAFOHunter From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 18 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
A total of 19 Hunters were acquired plus one loaner (G-APUX).
Attrition details are very sketchy on Lebanese Hunters. Some sources say that of the initial 9 aircraft, 5 were lost in training accidents. We have record on one of the later crashes, L.173 and know that at least two were shot down and one other badly damaged. That doesn't really help with the census as that still leaves 11 aircraft!
There were reports in the 90's that there were "at least 6 Hunters still flying" but this was unconfirmed.
Other reports that I have heard place the survivors at 3 stored aircraft with Rayak being mentioned repeatedly as the location.
As there are only about 800 regular Air Force personel now, surely there must be someone who knows details.
I try to correspond directly with Air Forces, most times without success unfortunately, but in this case I am sure that the Air Force commanders have more important tasks at hand for now.
RAFOHunter From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 18 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
OD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1904 posts, RR: 43 Reply 16, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 32767 times:
I did manage to get hold of a retired Hunter pilot. We did have a very nice chat and was able to get a few things that you may find helpful.
Between 1978-1983, there were 10 Hunters flying.
Based on your list, these were the ones we found in his log book.
L-271 or L-171 according to your records. There were no Hunters in his log book with L-1** registrations and all appear L-2**
L-275
L-276
L-280
L-281
L-282
L-284
L-285
L-286 (T.66)
L-287 (T.66)
It seems that L-283 (ex-XF430) was probably lost right after delivery. It never appears in his log book.
L-281 was probably the one shot over the Shouf mountains in September 1983. This one's also missing in his log book after that date.
The Hunter that flew to Akrotiri was the one which was "badly damaged". Both the pilot and the Hunter (after repairs) were returned back to Lebanon. It was hit and the front gear (nose wheel) didn't deploy so it was flown to Cyprus, as advised by the Brits and Americans, since the short rwy at Byblos (Halate) could have damaged the aircraft beyond repairs.
Also, L-271, L-275 and L-276 were not used regularly for the same reason, the short rwy at Halate (Byblos), since they didn't have the tail chute compared to the other models.
Another Hunter was lost in 1989 over Batrun. The pilot ejected safely. We talked to him over the phone as well and he thought it was L-285 but was not sure. He says it may have been L-280.
When they were finally grounded in the early 90s, there were a total of 8 surviving Hunters. He believes all are stored at the Rayak base.
He noted that during the 1983-84 campaign, the Hunters (or the LAF) were ineffective mainly due to poor planning. They mainly used the Aden canons, 68 mm rocket pods with a mixed anti-armour and conventional ammunitions, and very very rarely, they used a few 500 lb dumb bombs.
Maybe in the future I can get more, but this is all for the time being.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Hello to all, I found your correspondence on the Lebanese Airforce and its Hunters most interesting. I am also a keen researcher on the LAF and its history, and I would be very grateful for any further info that anyone might have on that subject. Also, if anyone has photos of LAF aircraft through its history. I would be most g rateful to be able to have alook at.On the subject of the Hunters , does anyone have info on thr camouflage scheme in the 60s and early 70s, and which included red tailplanes and noses? Does anyone have photos of any LAF Hunters in that colour scheme, which was also shared during the same period by a number of Jordanian and Iraqi Hunters? Also, I would like to point out that LAF Hunter T66C serial no. L282 was donated to the Royal Jordanian AF in 1968, leaving the LAF with 2 T66Cs which remained in service till all Hunters were placed in storage in the early 90s.They were originall registered L280 and L281, but were reserialized in the late 70s as L286 and L287.The same happened with the surviving Hunter F6 and FGA70 from the late 50s and early 60s ,which used to be registered L170 onwards.They wre also renumbered in the late 70s as L270 onwards.This followed the delivery in 1976/77 of the 6 FGA70As, which were numbered L280 to L 285.If anyone has further info and/or pics on this PLS let me know.
RJAF From Jordan, joined Jan 2007, 288 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (4 years 11 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
As I see quite a few Hunter fans on this post, I though you'd enjoy an RJAF Hunter photo (I beleive they were escorting HM late King Hussein's Caravelle aircraft in the mid sixties).
OD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1904 posts, RR: 43 Reply 19, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Hunterson (Reply 17): On the subject of the Hunters , does anyone have info on thr camouflage scheme in the 60s and early 70s, and which included red tailplanes and noses?
You probably mean this one:
I haven't seen any Hunters in this scheme, the example is a Vampire.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Hello to all , again . First, many thanks to the friends from Jordan and Lebanon for their replies and interesting photos. To my Lebanese friend , I would like to say that he is absolutely correct about the LAF Vampires. Indeed , there was a time when most LAF airplanes were sporting some form of colourful paint scheme ,which included red tails as well as red noses and wingtips. That applied even when the aircraft were camouflaged and included such types as the Chipmunk and T-6 Harvard trainers, the Vampire T55 and Fouga Magister armed trainers and, of course, the Hunters. This practie was followed throughout the 50s and 60s and up to at least the early 70s. I used to have colour photos of LAF Hunters painted that way, including F6, F70, and T66 , serial nos L171, L175, L176, L177, L178, and L179 single-seaters , and L280 two-seater all with red tails noses and wingtips ,and taken during that period. Also, I can still remember , as a kid, seeing LAF Hunters flying over Beirut and/or taking-off and landing at Beirut International Airport and the adjacent Airbase with that particular colour scheme up to the civil war in 1975 .Unfortunatly, I do not have those photos anymore, but I still have a few black and whites clearly showing the red tail/nose/wingtips and , of course, the standard grey/green camouflage. It seems certain that the LAF stopped using the red-colour treatment on its Hunter , and other types sometime in the mid or late 70s , and probably with the delivery of the 6 Hunter F70As in 76-77. As stated , these aircraft wre painted in the standard camouflage of grey/green with light grey under surfaces and the usual flag and rondels.Alsoof interest was the change in the serial numbers fromm L170-onwards to L270-onwards, and from white to black , similar to what the LAF had earlier adopted on its Mirage-3EL and BL fighters.
OD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1904 posts, RR: 43 Reply 22, posted (4 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Mig21UMD (Reply 21): The other day I saw what looked like a Gazelle (helicopter) attacking Muslim militant positions. Just for the record it definitely was not a huey.
The Gazelles (total of 9) were recieved a few months ago from the UAE and still have the yellow "desert" paint.
OD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1904 posts, RR: 43 Reply 24, posted (4 years 11 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Hunterson (Reply 20): LAF airplanes were sporting some form of colourful paint scheme ,which included red tails as well as red noses and wingtips. That applied even when the aircraft were camouflaged and included
Quoting Hunterson (Reply 20): LAF Hunters painted that way, including F6, F70, and T66 , serial nos L171, L175, L176, L177, L178, and L179 single-seaters , and L280 two-seater all with red tails noses and wingtips
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 25, posted (4 years 10 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Dear All,
Thanks so much for OD720 for the photo of LAF Hunter T 66L280 sporting the red nose and tail on its grey/green camouflage. I hope we can still get more of the same. Does 0D720 have any info on when that photo was taken ??
OD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1904 posts, RR: 43 Reply 26, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Hunterson (Reply 25): Does 0D720 have any info on when that photo was taken ??
Taking a wild guess while looking at some features of the photo like the background and specially the hangars, I would say prior to 1975. These hangars were modified for the 747 after MEA recieved them in 1975. In this photo taken at BEY, the hangars don't appear to be able to handle the 747. Also, 3 Hunters can be confirmed and all have the red tail meaning that at least 1 single seater had this feature as well.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 27, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting OD720 (Reply 26): . Also, 3 Hunters can be confirmed and all have the red tail meaning that at least 1 single seater had this feature as well.
Dear all,thanks to OD720 for his reply i agree with him on the MEA 747 hangers and certainly i also agree that the photo has takan sometime before 1975.
as for the LAF Hunters shown in the photo, I know for certain that not only the 2-seaters , but also the LAF single-seaters were at some stagfe painted with red tails, red noses, and red wingtips. Indeed, I believe all LAF available Hunters ,as well as the Vampire T55s and the T-6 Harvards in service were painted as such for aperiod sometime between the early 1960s and the mid 1970s. I used to have photo evidence in color of this showing Hunter F6 and Hunter F70 aircraft L171,L175,L176, L177, L178, and Hunter T66 L280 and L281 , all sporting that colour scheme . Those photos were all taken sometime between 1968 and 1975. Unfortunately, I lost those photos along the years,but I still have some BW ones which nevertheless still clearly show that particular paint pattern and they include Hunter F6/70 L1175/176/177/178,and Hunter T66 L280. I strongly believe that what happened was that the LAF Hunters which were still in service by 1975/76 were all repainted in the normal gray/green camouflage alongside the newly delivered Hunter F70As around that period. Also, all were reserialized as L270 onward, instead of the original L170 onward, with the remaining 2-seaters L280 and L281 becoming ,respectively, L286 and L287. I still very much hope we can get some more data, both info and photo, to confirm and add to the above With my thanks and regards again to OD720 and to all.
LY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 13 Reply 28, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting OD720 (Reply 22): Quoting Mig21UMD (Reply 21):
The other day I saw what looked like a Gazelle (helicopter) attacking Muslim militant positions. Just for the record it definitely was not a huey.
The Gazelles (total of 9) were recieved a few months ago from the UAE and still have the yellow "desert" paint.
OD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1904 posts, RR: 43 Reply 29, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting LY744 (Reply 28): Did the Gazelles come with any weapons other than the machine gun pods? Also, are the MG pods .30 or .50 cal?
The pods appear to be .30 but that's just from the photos I've seen.
They arrived with no weapons at all, not even this light machine gun. When war broke out on May, the UAE rushed weapons for the Gazelles but it was not disclosed what kinds of arms were sent. One thing for sure is that the HOT missiles were never delivered and won't in the future (based on media reports).
They are armed with the unguided rocket pods as well but I tried to find out if these were also recently supplied or came from old Lebanese Air Force stocks but with no success. One paper recently reported that they worked miracles to better arm the Gazelles and that's where I became suspicious that they may be using their old Gazelle stocks. Just a guess on my side.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 30, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Hello to all.
In fact , the Lebanese Air Force recieved 12 Mirage-3 aircraft from France during 1967-1968. They comprised 10 Mirage-3EL single-seaters , and 2 Mirage-3DL (not BL as commonly believed, although the two versions are virtually the same) 2-seaters. The LAF serialized its Mirages from L-501 to L-512. The 2-seaters were L-511 and L-512.This particular aircraft crashed soon after (sometime in the late 60s or early 70s) while on aroutine training flight and the LAF was left with 11 aircraft , 10 single-seaters and 1 two-seater(L-511). They remained in active operational service during the 70s until the early 80s ,when theh were placed in storage due to the raging civil war in the country at the time. In fact , and contrary to the wide spread belief , the LAF Mirages did actually operate in anger along side the Hunters in the fighting between the Lebanese Army and the PLO which erupted briefly inBeirut in May 1973. It is also widelly believed that the LAF lost another Mirage in an accident . This is thought to have occured sometime in the 1970s, but no details are available other than that it was a single-seater -3EL , but its serial no. is unknown. Eventually ,the LAF was left with a total of 10 Mirages ( 9 -EL and 1 -DL) and all kept in storage .During the 1990s , and after the end of the countrys civil war, the then new Lebanese government exlored various possible plans to reactivate them and put them back in operational service, but none were adopted for mainly economic ,but also political reasons(the Syrians who were at the time occupying the country would not allow it) .Finally, an agreement was reached to sell the aircraft to Pakistan which still operates alarge fleet of Mirage-3E/D/5 aircaft until this day.The Lebanese Mirages were deliverd to Pakistan in the late 1990s.Another interesting point is that in one of the very last available photos of the LAF Mirages , taken probably sometime in the mid 1980s when they were stored at Kolayaat Air Base in North Lebanon, several examples were clearly seen in remarkably good condition and quite surprisingly carrying new serial nos. in L-400 range instead of their usual L-500. Aircaft seen included L-405,L-406,L408,L-410,and the 2-seater L-411.I hope some one might have some more data on this ,or some other photo evidence to verify it .
OD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1904 posts, RR: 43 Reply 31, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Hunterson (Reply 30): several examples were clearly seen in remarkably good condition and quite surprisingly carrying new serial nos. in L-400 range instead of their usual L-500
Just checked this info with a friend and it's true. Good observation on your side!
In the Lebanese Air Force registrations, the first number indicates the squadron number. So the Mirages made the 5th squadron and then at some point, they were re-assigned to the 4th.
I've seen pictures of these in Pakistan AF service. They were believed to be in great condition. Some frames even had very low hours on them but as you said, politics stood on their way. I can't tell or imagine what sort of threat a dozen of old Mirages would have caused to any of our neighbors. In 2007, this has still not changed and there is no indication that it will in the next few years. I also really doubt that we have any "surviving" jet pilots. All probably have retired by now.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 32, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Dear OD720, thank you for your kind comments re the LAF Mirages . I wander if you are aware that also the Lebanese Fouga Magisters underwent a similar process of change of serials during their service life. They were first registered as L-440 onwards, then changed to L-400 onwards, and finally serialsed as L-600 onwards .I believe that also happened sometime during the 1980s , when they were repainted in the standard LAF grey/green camouflage instead of the previous silver metallic, and re-serialised L-600 to L-608 . I also wander if you happen to have , or to know of any more photos of those LAF red-tailed Hunters , similar to that beautiful shot of L-280 which you posted recently , as well as any photos of the L-400 registered Mirages?
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 33, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting OD720 (Reply 31): I also really doubt that we have any "surviving" jet pilots.
To OD720,
One more point i hope you are wrong with your pesimism about the future, I am confident that Lebanon will be back and that we will have a new generation of pilots and patriots. I'm also confident that it will happen before the next few years, it only takes us Lebanese to stand together to make it happen.
OD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1904 posts, RR: 43 Reply 34, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Hunterson (Reply 32): I wander if you happen to have , or to know of any more photos of those LAF red-tailed Hunters , similar to that beautiful shot of L-280 which you posted recently
That was the only one I found on the net. If you have some, please email it to me.
Quoting Hunterson (Reply 30): in one of the very last available photos of the LAF Mirages , taken probably sometime in the mid 1980s when they were stored at Kolayaat Air Base in North Lebanon, several examples were clearly seen in remarkably good condition and quite surprisingly carrying new serial nos.
Is this the photo you're referring to?
Here are a few photos I have:
Here's a Hunter, probably prior to delivery in 1977:
A Bulldog at BEY AF base, you can see a Fouga and a Hunter behind it. Photo must date around 1982.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 35, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting OD720 (Reply 34): Is this the photo you're referring to?
Greetings and many thanks for your photos, which i found most interesting. I am sending you some photos which i have managed to collect including one of a Hunter F-7OA reg:L281, Fouga reg:L609 and a Mirage 3EL reg:L504. I think they were taken sometime in the 80's except the Mirage which obviously dates back to the 70's.They used to be on the Lebanese Army official website, but for some reason they were removed a couple of years ago. As for the Mirage photo that you posted in the Hangar it is very similar to the one i mentioned but not the same. It was obviously taken in the same Hanagr and around the same time as the one i referred to, but that one was in colour and also showed a couple of chimpmunk trainers including reg:L102. The number of Mirages that could be seen in that picture was 9 and included the serials i referred to in one of my earlier postings. As for the Hunters with the red tails i wish i has some more in colour. in fact i have been looking for photos of them for many years now with no success. I still have a couple in black and white which show the red tails and noses as different from the camoflogue but i still remember that som time in the early 70's the Lebanese ministry of defence issues a calendar which included a fanastic picture in full color of 4 Hunters flying in close formation over the Beka'a valley sporting that particular colour scheme and serialised L171, L175, L176 and L178. I lost that calendar many years ago with the photos in contained and how i wish i could find it again.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 37, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting OD720 (Reply 36): Do you know if the Lebanese Fouga's could be armed? I have never seen them carrying any type of weapons.
Greetings
I've never seen a picture of a Lebanese Air Force Fouga Magister carrying weapons. But I know for certain that their mission role was always as trainers,including weapons training with a secondary light attack role. In fact the Fougas were used in combat on a few occasions during the civil war in the 80's along side the Hunters in recce and ground attack missions in the Shouf Mountains. Their armement was believed to include 7.62 mm machine guns, 68 mm SNEB rocket launchers (7 barrel) as well as 50 kg bombs. I wish we coud find any pictures of the Fouga's iun this configuration im sure there must be some somewhere. I hope you found the photos that i posted in one of my earier posts interesting i would like your comments about them.
OD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1904 posts, RR: 43 Reply 38, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
They are very interesting indeed! Thanks for posting them.
I think the Mirage photo dates back to 1968 in France prior to delivery.
As for the Fougas, I'm not sure that they were used in the battles of 1983 you're referring to. The Hunters were used for sure and quite unsuccessfully, mostly due to poor planning and lack of inteligence. During this period, one of the Bulldogs was shot down as well.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 39, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting OD720 (Reply 38): think the Mirage photo dates back to 1968 in France prior to delivery.
As for the Fougas, I'm not sure that they were used in the battles of 1983 you're referring to. The Hunters were used for sure and quite unsuccessfully, mostly due to poor planning and lack of inteligence. During this period, one of the Bulldogs was shot down as well.
Dear OD720,
You are absolutely right about the operational use of the Hunters in 1983, and also about the loss of one of the Bulldogs during that unfortunate period of our history. I also agree with you about the date of the Mirage photo which ibelieve was one of a series of pictures taken of LAF Mirage-3EL no. L-504 in France before it was delivered to the LAF in 1968.
As for the Fougas, I am reasonably certain of the info which I obtained some years ago from reliable sources that they were actually used operationally on a couple of occasions and that part of their mission in the LAF was in the armed trainer/light attack/recce role, similar to the Harvards which they replaced in the mid and late 1960s. I wonder if you know anyone who can either confirm or correct this info ?
Also, according to my data, the LAF still had in storage , at least until 2000 ,when the Mirages were sold to Pakistan, the following fixed - wing aircraft:
- Between 6-8 Hunters , including at least 1 two-seater, probably L-287(Ex. L-281).
-Between 6-8 Fougas .
-Between 4-5 Bulldogs .
-1 Dove (L-110) .
It was believed at the time that most ,if not all, of those planes were still air worthy including the Dove , which was delivered in 1950!
This was also in addition to the many helicopters ( Pumas/ AB-212s/ Gazelles/ Allouette-2s/ Alouette-3s) which were stored , and were in various conditions awaiting repairs and spare parts.
I wonder if you have any data to either confirm or correct this data?
Also, is there any reliable info that you know of about exactly how many helicopters were lost by the LAF during the Civil War, through accidents, action, sabotage or bombardment? And what was the condition of the remaining helicopters in storage?
Also, on a related matter, it is known that back in the 60s and 70s some of the Allouettes were armed with SS-11 ATGWs, and 20mm. cannon. It is also knwn that the original 8 Gazelles delivered to the LAF in 2 batches in the 80s were armed with 20mm. cannon, 68mm. SNEB rocket launchers and 12.7mm.(.50cal) heavy machine guns. Were they ever equipped with HOT ATGWs? And are any of them operational now alongside the 9 Gazelles obtained from the UAE recently? As for the gunods seen on these Gazelles, are they somekind of an improvised addition devised by the LAF, or acquired with the hcps from the UAE, or part of the original armament of the LAF Gazelles? And are they 20mm. guns or 12.7mm.(.50cal.) machine guns? They seem to be rather too big to be just 7.62mm.(.303cal.)to me, but i could be wrong?
Finally, are you aware of any flying operations using fixed-wing aircraft by the LAF at present , even only for training and/or to keep up flying hours...etc.? or are the only operational equipment of the LAF at the moment the US-supplied Bell-205s( UH-1H Huey0 , and the UAE-supplied Gazelles? and are there any plans, as far as you know , to refurbish and operate again any of the stored aircraft and helicopters in the LAF inventory? Please advise.
With regards and thanks.
OD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1904 posts, RR: 43 Reply 40, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Just wanted to thank you for all the info you have provided so far.
I will answer some of your questions from "unofficial" sources:
The Gazelles that the AF recieved in the 80s are said to have suffered severe damages (beyond repair) during the fightings in east Beirut in 1990 between teh army and the Leb Forces militias. The helicopters were based in the Jounieh stadium and Adma and were destroyed on the ground. The LF militias feared that they may be used in the fightings.
The Pumas and AB212s suffered similar fates and most are believed to have been destroyed. I've heard somewhere that there may still be 2 Pumas with little damage stored somewhere. Moreover, some info has surfaced recently about 4 AB212s to be repaired and made airworthy.
Currently the AF has 23 UH-1, 9 Gazelles and 4 Raven R44s.
There are no known trainings on any fixed wing aircraft.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 41, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Dear OD720,
Many thanks again for all the info you provided in your reply.
So what happened to the stored aircraft/helicopters which were still flyable such as the Hunters/Fougas/Bulldogs/Allouettes?
Are there any indications about their current status, ie. are they still in store, or have they been sold , or scrapped etc.?
And, by the way , are the UH-1Hs armed at all? I read recently that two of them flew to Cyprus on a mission to help our Cypriot friends in fighting a forest fire, which I thought was quite nice.
Also, by the way , do you know if the R-44s have been given LAF serials, or Lebanese civil registrations?
Finally, is there any way , as far as you know, of obtaining more old photos of LAF aircraft ,such as Hunters/Vampires/Fougas/Allouettes...etc, is there an archive available to the public ,even for a price, or perhaps some private collections?
I am really interested in collating a pictorial album on the history of the LAF for my private use , and I am sure I can use all the help I can get
With my thanks and greetings once again
OD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1904 posts, RR: 43 Reply 42, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Hunterson (Reply 41): So what happened to the stored aircraft/helicopters which were still flyable such as the Hunters/Fougas/Bulldogs/Allouettes?
These aircraft simply got old with time and were retired accordingly.
Quoting Hunterson (Reply 41): do you know if the R-44s have been given LAF serials
These are Lebanese Air Force helicopters and accordingly must be registred with the AF.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 43, posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Dear OD720,
Thanks for your most recent reply and the posted photos. I thought you might be interested to know that whille going through the entry on the Lebanese Air Force ,on the Lebanese Army official website , and interestingly it actually states that the UH-1Hs delivered from the US can be armed for the ground attachethk and anti-armour role. Unfortunately , however, it does not mention what types of weapons the hcps can carry, or whether the LAF has ever used them in thet role. It was also quite intersting to note that in the same entry , there was a photo of one of the original LAF Gazelles from the 1980s equipped with 4 launch tubes for HOT ATGWs.But I have no idea if those missiles ever actually entered LAF service or whether they were ever used operationally on the Gazelles during the fighting in the 80s.Maybe you might have some info on these tow points?
On another note, I am strll hopefull that you might be able to help me with my search for old photos of LAF aircraft as I mentioned in one of my earlier posts, or indeed if you know of any one else who can?
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 44, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Hello to all. After afew days away on holiday , it is good to be back. Just aquick update on the LAF Gazelles .The Lebanese Army made an announcement today(9/8/07) tjat its Gazelle armed helicopters have been in action again in the battles against Islamist militants held up in the Nahr El Bared Palestinian refugee camp in the north of the country. Eye witnesses and journalists reported that the helicopters made several attacks against targets in the camp over aperiod of several hours , including at night. Also of interest were the reports that the Gazelles used in these missions were equipped for the first time with missiles and/or rockets , and not only with machine gun pods as on previous similar missions. Unfortunately, no details or photos have been made available yet onthe type of weapons used ,but one source repoted seeing one helicopter firing six " missiles" in quick succession against one fortified bunker in the camp .
OD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1904 posts, RR: 43 Reply 45, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:
The Gazelles are now equipped with the HOT missiles and are being used in the battles.
What is of interest today are reports that the helicopters are dropping free fall 250 kg and 454 kg bombs and it was reported that the helicopters used for this mission are the AB 212s!
How is this possible? Have helicopters ever used to drop such heavy loads? I actually saw the footages on TV where two large objects were dropped onto the camp.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 46, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
There have been indeed several local media reports quoting " official Army sources " and stating quite clearly that " certain modifications were introduced to improve the combat capabilities and fire-power of Lebanese Air Force helicopters".As usual , those reports were short on details, but they did mention that the modifications were achieved" thanks to Lebanese technical know-how, and were introduced locally by Air Force technicians". They also stated that the development enabled LAF helicopters to carry 250kg " deep penetration bunker-busting" bombs, which were actually dropped on the Nahr al Bared camp in the recent battles where the Army is trying to flush out the last remaining hideouts of the militants.
The reports did not mention anything about 454kg bombs, nor did they specify the type, or types, of helicopters which were modified with this new capability. I personally doubt very much that the light-weight Gazelle could be adapted to carry and drop such rlatively heavy bombs. Also, I think the LAF would be quite happy with their Gazelles now equipped and operated in their ideal role ,ie. as gunships armed with HOT ATGWs, rocket launchers and machine guns.
What seems far more logical would be using the UH-1H(Bell-205) and/or AB-212 for the bombing role, thanks to their much higher load-carrying capability.
I hope it will soon become possible to confirm such a development, especially regarding the return to operational use of the AB-212s, alongside the UH-1Hs and the Gazelles. It would be a welcome addition to the capabilities of the Lebanese Air Force.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 49, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Greetings to all,
Indeed, I saw the same photos on the website of the Lebanese daily al-Nahar which OD-720 refes to. According to Lebanese military sources , quoted in the London-based Arabic daily al-Hayat, the bombs being used are 250kg. weapons which originally were armament used on the Lebanese Air Force Hawker Hunter fighters, and which have been now adapted for use on the helicopters. Interstingly, the paper quotes the same sources as saying that the helicopter type in question is the "La Bell".
Obviously, this is either a printing error, or a mistake in pronouncing the correct name of the helicopter. There is of course no helicpter called "La Bell", but what this could mean is , probably , the AB-212 which was commonly refered to in LAF service as the " Agusta Bell". Alternatively, it could mean simply "The Bell", in reference to the UH-1H,ie. Bell-205,which is also in service with the LAF.
Unfortunately, it is very difficult to tell , from the photo in al-Nahar, which type is being used at present ,or even if BOTH are.Hopefully more will become known in due course.
One more note of interest: It is yet again clear that the long and historic association of the Lebanese Air Force with its Hunters is not over yet!
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 51, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
I find quite strange that al-Jazeera captioned their so-called "exclusive" footage of the Lebanese Air Force Huey as "Emirati planes bombing the Palestinian refugee camp of Nahr al-Bared " !!!
Can they not tell the difference between a Gazelle and a Huey?
Or was this meant as a political swipe by al-Jazeera at the UAE for supplying Lebanon with the Gazelles?
And does this mean that al-Jazeera are supporting the "Fath al-Islam" group in their battle against the Lebanese Army by trying to portray it as a battle against the Palestinian people, at a time when Palestinian leaders themselves describe that militant group as "a gang of terrorists" ?
In any case , it is still quite difficult from that footage to tell whether the helicopters used in the bombing are Bell-205 ( UH-1H) Hueys, or Agusta-Bell-212 Twin-Hueys, or perhaps both !
LY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 13 Reply 52, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Hunterson (Reply 51): In any case , it is still quite difficult from that footage to tell whether the helicopters used in the bombing are Bell-205 ( UH-1H) Hueys, or Agusta-Bell-212 Twin-Hueys, or perhaps both !
As odd as it may be, the nose on that helicopter definitely looks like that of a 205.
OD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1904 posts, RR: 43 Reply 54, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
The Lebanese Air Force is putting the Hunters back into service. The rumors were there for the past few days but it seems that now the army is confirming the news.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 55, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting OD720 (Reply 54): The Lebanese Air Force is putting the Hunters back into service. The rumors were there for the past few days but it seems that now the army is confirming the news.
More to come later.
This would be absolutely brilliant. I really hope it will happen. Would it not be great to see the classic lines of the good old Hunter gracing Lebanese skies again?
Please keep us informed on the latest developments!
RJAF From Jordan, joined Jan 2007, 288 posts, RR: 0 Reply 56, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting OD720 (Reply 54): The Lebanese Air Force is putting the Hunters back into service. The rumors were there for the past few days but it seems that now the army is confirming the news.
That will be really amazing! How many do you think can be made airworthy again? What would it take to wake up the sleeping squadrons?
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 57, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting RJAF (Reply 56): will be really amazing! How many do you think can be made airworthy again? What would it take to wake up the sleeping squadrons?
Indeed it will be amazing, and also fantastic news for all of us who never stopped to believe that the Lebanese Air Force will always rise again from the ashes against all the odds, and fly not only helicopters , but also fixed-wing aircraft, and particularly fighters, even if they were as old and vintage as the great Hunter.
And, by the way, Is it not also amazing that here we are talking again about the great Hawker Hunter in Lebanese Air Force service, more than one whole year after this site was first launched with a simple question about the fate of the Hunters in the lebanese Air Force?
I raelly do hope that what our friend OD720 says about the Lebanese Hunters being put back into service proves to be correct , and I certainly look forward to learn more about this. For me, it would be a dream come true, and it would most certainly pave the way for the LAF to acquire a more modern replacement fighter for the great Hunter in the future,just as the RJAF did ,first with the F-5E Tiger and Mirage F-1, and ultimately with the F-16 Fighting Falcon.
As for the number of Hunters that could still be in flyable condition , or which could be brought back into operational flying service, I believe the figure regarded as most likely is somewhere between 8 and 10 aircraft, including at least one T-66C two-seater with the rest comprising a mixture of F-6 and FGA-70/70A single-seaters. Certainly enough to "wake-up" at least one " sleeping squadron " , and provide the solid basis for more to rise in the future.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 58, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Now that the fighting in the Nahr Al-Bared camp in North Lebanon is finally over, and with the Lebanese Army having crushed the Islamist terrorist group Fath Al-Islam and its Qaida connections, it might be an opportune moment to congratulate the Lebanese Armed Forces as a whole, and the Lebanese Air Force in particular, on their heroic performance and their bravery and innovative spirit in that crucial battle.
The Lebanese Army lost some 160 officers and soldiers, mostly from elite units, such as the Rangers, Marines, and Airborne troops, who took the brunt of the fighting in a battle agaist a vicious, determined and suicidal enemy.
Most of the casualties of the Army were due to sniper fire, booby traps and ambushes, but they knew they had to win that fight, and they did, killing more than 220 extremists, including all their leadership, and taking some 300 prisoner.
The Lebanese Air Force , in particular, did remarkably well. The LAF essentialy " rose from the ashes". Having not fired a shot in anger for more than 15 years, and having been deprived of its combat elements for that duration , the LAF had to rely on its helicopters.
First, they used their recently acquired Gazelles( supplied from the UAE as emrgency aid), and operated them in their primary role as helicopter gunships, armed with 20mm. cannon, 68mm. rocket launchers and HOT ATGWs.
Then came the revelation when it turned out that Lebanese technicians had managed to modify Bell-205 UH-1H helicopters supplied by the US some years ago unarmed, into Helicopter-Bombers, armed with 250kg. and 400kg. bombs(which originally belonged to old Hunter and Mirage-3 fighters used by the LAF), and then operated the helicopters on pricision bombing missions ,totalling some 200 sorties , which proved to be exeptionally effective.
Now we here that the LAF is on the verge of re-introducing its Hunters, of which around 6-8 were believed to be in storage, but still in flying condition, back into operational service after refurbishing and over-hauling them locally.
This is a great achievement especially for a small but determined nation which deserves all the help it can get from the frre world against its enemies.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 59, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Any further news or updates about the Lebanese Air Force inventory/order of battle after the end of the recent fighting against the terrorist group Fath al-Islam ?
And are there any new developments on the " Hunter back into service " story?
OD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1904 posts, RR: 43 Reply 60, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
A small collection of few photos I made lately.
A UH-1H carrying a single Mk 83 (454 kg) and 2 Mk 82 (227 kg) bombs
Here's something new. Another UH-1H armed with two MATRA (18x68 mm) rocket pods. These rockets were not used in the Nahr el-Bared battle but have seen action with the Hunters in September 1983 and February 1984.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 61, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Many thanks to OD720 for his brilliant and most informative photos of the Lebanese Air Force UH-1Hs and Gazelles.
I thought it would be a good idea also to post these two new photos, which I came across recently, courtsy of SCRAMBLE , and depicting Gazelle serial no. L-814, and Robinson R-44 in a new black /red colour scheme and serial no. L-1504.
I hope you will find them interesting, while waiting for the first pictures of the soon-to-be-revived Hunters to emerge.
BA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11097 posts, RR: 68 Reply 62, posted (4 years 7 months 3 days ago) and read 32767 times:
Seeing that four Hawker Hunters have been commissioned again (or are about to), what exactly will be their purpose? I can't see them being anything other than museum pieces or being used in air shows.
I know that Lebanon does envision having a small fleet of modern fighters once again, I forgot where I read this, might have been an article in the summer during the battle against Fatah el-Islam. My question though is what could they possibly get and how would they be funded?
The JF-17 page on Wikipedia mentions that Lebanon is a potential customer but I think this is nothing more than wishful thinking by someone as I couldn't find anything anywhere else on the internet about this.
Quoting BA (Reply 62): Seeing that four Hawker Hunters have been commissioned again (or are about to), what exactly will be their purpose? I can't see them being anything other than museum pieces or being used in air shows.
Indeed one might find it rather strange for the Lebanese Air Force to bring the Hunter back from retirement to put it in active service again.
However, the move is not as bewildering as it might look initially. The reason the Hunters were decommissioned in the first place back in the mid-90s , alongside the then remaining Fouga-Magisters and Bulldogs, was mainly political, rather than anything to do with military or operational considerations.
The Syrians, who at the time had gained political and military control over Lebanon did not want the LAF to have any fixed-wing combat capability, regardless of how limited or obsolete it may be. The Air Force then had to put out of service all its remaining fixed-wing aircraft, including up to 8 Hunters ( 7 F-70 single-seaters and 1 T-66 two-seater ), 6 Fouga-Magisters used for basic training and light attack, and 4 Bulldog primary trainers. Also, they had to abandon plans to bring back into service 10 Mirage-3 fighters ( 9 -3EL single-seaters and 1 -3DL two-seater ) which had been in storage since the mid-80s.
By 1995, the LAF had no fixed-wing aircraft flying, becoming instead a wholly helicopter-equipped force. By all accounts, the Hunters and other aircraft which were put in storage were still in remarkably good condition, and the LAF actually made it a point to maintain them in storage at a nearly airworthy state. The Mirages, however, were eventually sold to Pakistan in 2000.
The LAF obviously believes that it still needs an operational fixed-wing combat capability, something which has been proven beyond doubt during recent fighting against the terrorists in the north, and where the use of airpower proved vital in achieving victory for the Lebanese Army.
With no funds available immediately, or in the foreseeable future , for the purchase of new modern aircraft, the most logical course of action for the LAF was obviously to put back into service some of the stored Hunters, at least as an interim measure. Such a step would also be important in providing LAF pilots with valuable flying-hours and renewed experience on fixed-wing aircraft on a type with which the LAF is extremely familiar with. Added to this, of course, is the important "political message " of having the fighters back in operational service . Even flying them in airshows and displays over Beirut and other parts of Lebanon would be a significant development for a lot of Lebanese people !
As for any longer-term plans, I agree that the report about the JF-17 sounds a little bit far-fetched. What might be much more likely is for the LAF to acquire some more modern fighter-trainer type of multi-role cmbat aircraft, such as the Hawk or the L-39./ 159 Albatross family, either as new or, more probably, as a gift from the surplus arsenal of some friendly country, just like what happened with the US-supplied UH-1H Hueys and the UAE-supplied Gazelles, which were used with remarkable effect in the recent fighting.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 64, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
I have just come across some very interesting new updates concerning the efforts which are currently underway to rebuild and revitalize the equipment and operational capabilities of the Lebanese Air Force.
i am at the moment double-checking the accuracy of that information , and I hope I will be able to post it here as soon as possible.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 65, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Further to my previous message, here is some of the latest updates which I promised about recent and on-going developments re. the Lebanese Air Force :
1- Contrary to all commonly-accepted information, and quite a surprise to me, the supposed sale of the LAF fleet of Mirage-3 fighters never actually took place. Apparently, the deal was agreed in principle and should have been finalized back in 2000. However, some "unexplained" last-minute snags led to its cancellation, and the whole thing was dropped rather quietly, and with no one bothering to correct the reports which had already surfaced at the time about its completion. As such, the aircraft were never actually delivered to the Pakistani Air Force, but remained in Lebanon eversince. According to my info, which I can describe as quite reliable, the Mirages , comprising 9 -3EL single-seaters and 1 3-DL two-seater, were seen recently in their hangar at Koleiat AB , and were described as "in immaculate condition". However, the LAF has "no immediate plans" to put them back in operational service.
2- The plans to bring back the Hawker Hunters into service, however, are still going ahead. According to the latest on this, the LAF still has a total of 8 Hunters, including 6 F6/F70/F70a single-seaters and 2 T66 two-seaters. The plans call for putting back into service 5 aircraft, inc. 4 single-seaters and 1 two-seater. My sources tell me that "they are nearly there", and there still need to sort some "very minor" technical issues before they are put into active squadron service, which I was told should be "quite soon".
3- The LAF now has a full complement of 9 Gazelles operational. These are the ones donated to Lebanon earlier this year from the UAE. All of them have been serialized in the L-800 range, just like the original LAF Gazelles, and are equipped with 12.7mm MGs, 20mm cannon, 68mm rockets and HOT ATGWs.
4- .In addition to the 9 ex-UAE Gazelles, the LAF is currently refurbishing and putting back in service 3 Gazelles which are the sole survivors of the original fleet of 8 which they had back in the 1980s, the rest having been either destroyed or rendered non-operational during the fighting then. This should bring the total of Gazelles in service up to 12 mainly used as armed gunships in the grond-support and anti-tank role.
5- There are also 2 remaining Puma medium transport and assault helicopters which were found to be in a good enough condition to refurbish and put back in service, out of 6 which were operated in the 1980s( some other reports talk about the original total as 12 but they remain unconfirmed).
6- The LAF is currently in the process of putting back in service 4 Agusta-Bell-212 ( Twin-Huey) medium transport and assault helicopters. These are also the remaining units of a total of 12 which the LAF had originally. I am told that the 4 AB-212s have already been overhauled and upgraded.
7- They will almost certainly be integrated, alongside the refurbished 2 Pumas , into the squadrons currently equipped with the US-supplied Bell-205 ( UH-1H ), which the LAF now operate a total of 24, out of 32 delivered, the rest being used as spares. The Hueys are used in a variety of roles including medium transport, assault, medevac, fire-fighting, and general utility duties, in addition of course to their newly-aquired role as gruond-attack gunships/bombers, in which they were extensively used during the recent fighting against terrorists in the north of the country. A total of 4 UH-1Hs were converted to this role, and equipped with 250kg and 400kg bombs and 68mm SNEB rocket launchers.
Quoting Hunterson (Reply 65): wouldn't it make more sense to put the mirages back into service?
Yes, I guess it does. But perhaps they have some good reasons for not doing so. I can think of a few, such as the more familiarity of the LAF pilots and ground crews with the Hunter, remembering that the Mirages have been in storage since at least the early 1980s. Also, probably the availability of a ready stock of spare parts. And, maybe above all, the fact that the Hunters would probably be much less expensive to operate and maintain than the good old Hunters, specially if the whole exercise were to be an interim measure pending the availability of some more modern equipment in the future.
F27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1107 posts, RR: 6 Reply 70, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Hunterson (Reply 69): I agree with you again. But perhaps you can refer to an earlier reply which I had posted recently on this topic (reply 63).Let me know what you think.
if it doesn't cost them a lot, I agree it's a good move to get pilots their flying hours and boost morale. But more than flight training and basic air to ground missions is all they could achieve.
How much money would be involved?
A Mirage III on the other hand is a frame with a lot of potential to upgrade. You can do some pretty nifty stuff with it, once you get modern systems in it.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 71, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 70):
if it doesn't cost them a lot, I agree it's a good move to get pilots their flying hours and boost morale. But more than flight training and basic air to ground missions is all they could achieve.
Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 70):
A Mirage III on the other hand is a frame with a lot of potential
Again I must say I agree with you entirely. I have always been a great fan of the Mirage , from its early beginnings as the Mirage-3 , up to the Mirage-5, Mirage F-1 , and Mirage-2000, not to mention all its other variants and guises , such as the Nesher, Dagger, Cheetah, Panthera , Kfir ..etc. I have no doubt that any veteran Lebanese fighter pilot would tell you that he would love to see the Mirage-3 flying again in Lebanese colours, and ending up with some up-graded version similar in a way to the Kfir or the Cheetah.
The reality , however, is rather different unfortunately. The re-introduction of the Hunter into operational service must have been seen by the LAF command as the easiest and most cost-effective option available to meet an urgent and quite simple requirement, calling for the re-equipment of the Air Force with a relatively cheap, familiar, available, simple to operate and maintain, and reasonably effective fixed-wing combat element, capable of performing simple basic straight foreward ground attack roles in close support of the ground forces.
I believe this is really the main objective of the LAF, and I am sure that no Lebanese military doctrine or strategist or commander is thinking of using the Hunters or the Mirages or anything else to that matter, in order to fight-off intruding Syrian MiG-29s or Su-24s, or Israeli F-15s and F-16s.
As such, maybe the Hunters back in service would be just a first step , and probably the correct one , as an interim move leading eventually to the more long term plan of acquiring some kind of a low-cost multi-role modern type suitable for basic and advanced training, as well as point air defence and light strike ground support and COIN duties, such as the Hawk, the L-159 Albatross , or even the M-346.
At the same time let us not rule out completely the possibility of the Lebanese Mirages flying again. Who knows ?
After all, they did make it a point to keep them in an " immaculate condition " and ready to fly again at short notice for more than 20 years of storage . Quite a feat, dont you think ?
F27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1107 posts, RR: 6 Reply 72, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
I guess you'r right, and when well taken care of, it doesn;t really matter how old the frame is. But what about the engine? That must be the critical component. Enthusiasts that keep vintage planes in the air are very carefully pampering their engines and only fly them at air shows etc. From what I understand from your post they want to use these jets on a regular basis.
Quoting Hunterson (Reply 71): and ending up with some up-graded version similar in a way to the Kfir or the Cheetah.
that was exactly what I was thinking
Quoting Hunterson (Reply 71): as well as point air defence and light strike ground support and COIN duties, such as the Hawk, the L-159 Albatross , or even the M-346.
these would be good planes. If money is really a problem, they might be able to get a bunch of G-4 Super Galebs from Serbia (which are standing around for years now). Equals the Hawk in performance, must be very cheap and the're working on an update program G-4M
OD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1904 posts, RR: 43 Reply 73, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
I can not comment on the story of the Mirage 3s but I can say that I have seen photos from the Pakistan Air Force of what is claimed to be the Lebanese jets in new paints. I can post those photos here but it's hard or impossible to tell if they are actually the LAF jets.
The info on the Hinters is very accurate. They are still working on them to make them airworthy but I am not sure of they will fly them at all.
Out of the 9 Gazelles recently recieved from the UAE, only 4 are operational and the UAE will be spending $3 million to make thos 5 operational.
I have no info on the AB 212s at present but the last I heard, maybe 2 months ago, that they are not too keen to bring them back into service. Maybe they will reconsider, I don't know.
Lebanon recieved a total of 24 Hueys from the US. One was crashed and there's no one in the air force that could say how many are operational. I have seen 16 flying in combination a year or so ago.
As for news, about a month or so ago, can't remember the exact date, Lebanon has asked the US for modern jets. My own guess is that it must have been the F-16 (early blocks) and the answer has come as a big NO. This is when Lebanese military officials have stressed that "we should look elsewhere". At what stage has this process of shortlisting by the air force reached is out of anyone's knowledge but the people involved. Now an article just published by Defence News says that the US is offering Lebanon TA-3 Skywarriors! I must say that if this is true, it first makes the US look quite bad and I hope Lebanon turns down such a humiliating offer. I say, bring back the Hunters!
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 75, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting OD720 and RJAF,
I have been aware of this story rumbling on about the TA-3s supposedly offered to the Lebanese Air Force by the US. I honestly think, and with all due respedt to Defence News and its correspondent, that it is either a joke or somekind of a printing mistake. I am not even sure that there are still any flying examples of that venerable aircraft which was retired some 40 years ago. , and which even in its day saw relatively limited service with the USN, both as a bomber and a conversion trainer. It just never made sense to me that out of all the huge number of surplus equipment available in US stocks, the Americans would all of a sudden decide to supply Lebanon with a strategic medium range airline-sized bomber that will probably require the whole of the LAF pool of pilots and ground crews, let alone fuel supplies , to fly and maintain.
Either the US diplomat quoted in the story did not know what he / she was talking about , or used the wrong designation, or was just trying to pull a fast one !
I do think, on the other hand, that the US might be seriously considering supplying the LAF with a small no. of fixed-wing training / combat aircraft. Perhaps something along the lines of the TA-4 Skyhawk, or even the T-38 Talon.
As for the Mirage-3 story, believe me it came as much as a surprise to me as to everyone else. I had long thought that the aircraft were sold and delivered to Pakistan in 2000. But my info source was adamant on this issue , assuring me that they were never delivered and that the deal was never completed. That also was confirmed to me later by another reliable source who said that the Mirages were actually seen in their hangar at Koleiaat , less than a couple of years ago , and that they were still in their usual pristine condition , as if they were ready to fly !
I can also confirm that all the ex-UAE Gazelles have now been brought up to operational status with serial nos. ranging from L-808 to L-816, and with the UAE having paid for their overhaul and refurbishment. Whether that means that the LAF is flying them all or not I am not totally sure.
The same also applies to the 4 AB-212s, 2 Pumas and 3 remaining Gazelles , all of which the LAF is now actively bringing back to service to satisfy its operational requirements and with funds already allocated for that purpose, just as the case with the 5 Hunters.
What is still unknown, however, is what the LAF intends to do about its other stored aircraft which include 6 Fouga-Magister and 4 Bulldog trainers, and 4 Alouette-3 and 2 Alouette-2 helicopters, as well as 1 Dove light transport.
OD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1904 posts, RR: 43 Reply 76, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Hunterson (Reply 75): I have been aware of this story rumbling on about the TA-3s supposedly offered to the Lebanese Air Force by the US. I honestly think, and with all due respedt to Defence News and its correspondent, that it is either a joke or somekind of a printing mistake
Unfortunately, this report is true and the Defense News article has been qouted all local networks and dailies. If it were not true, we would have heard some sort of statement from the US embassy here either rubbishing the reports or denying the news all together.
I personally think that the US isn't really serious about the A-3 Skyworrier but is quite serious in conveying the message to the Lebanese that you are way too far from getting anything modern for the time being.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 77, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting OD720 (reply 76 )
Yes , you are right, I also saw it in various media outlets. But they were all quoting the original story from Defence News. I am not sure , though , that anyone had bothered to double-check it first with the US embassy, or indeed with US sources in Washington DC to try to get a proper official reaction from them.
In any case, and if it is really true, it would not change my view that it is a joke. Can you imagine the LAF operating a mid-sized medium range strategic bomber ( roughly the size of an Airbus A-320 ) for training purposes ? And can you think of the cost and logistical requirements involved, for an airforce with such limited resources ?
I agree , on the other hand , with your last statement about what the Americans might be trying to tell the Lebanese regarding the possibility of supplying them with modern equipment. But how about a reasonably more suitable type ,even if it is old or obsolete, such as the TA-4, which as you know was offered to Lebanon by the US as far back as 1965 ?
And, by the way , does anyone know if there are any A-3s / TA-3s still in flying condition in the first place ?
This whole thing is starting to remind me of when the LAF operated ex- Italian SM-79 WW2 medium bombers for training and transport when it was first established back in 1949 !!!
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 79, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Thanks OD720. I am sure that both the Pumas and the AB-212s remaining will bi back in service soon , and so will be the Hunters, at least until the F-5s are delivered. So, I think Riad got it right this time.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 80, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
By the way, and in the midst of all these developments, is ther any new info about the future of the other types of aircraft believed to be still in storage with the LAF, such as the remaining Fouga Magisters, Bulldogs, and Alouettes ?
OD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1904 posts, RR: 43 Reply 81, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Hunterson (Reply 80): By the way, and in the midst of all these developments, is ther any new info about the future of the other types of aircraft believed to be still in storage with the LAF, such as the remaining Fouga Magisters, Bulldogs, and Alouettes ?
These are all old models and tracking spares may represent a challenge, just like the Hunters. I think the way is to look forward. The Saudis are really determined to give a few jets, if the US blocks the F-5, they are ready to go further with their efforts.
OD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1904 posts, RR: 43 Reply 83, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Hunterson (Reply 82): can you please elaborate a little more about what you mean by the last sentence ?
They are considering options of non-US made jets, in service with their and other friendly air forces in the Gulf. There are no plans that I know of buying new or used equipment.
Quoting OD720 (Reply 83):
They are considering options of non-US made jets
These could only mean British - made Hawks, if I am not mistaken. I can not think of any other non-US product in service with the RSAF or the UAEAF and suitable for the LAF requirements at present or in the foreseeable future.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 85, posted (4 years 5 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
It just occured to me, while there is currently a lot of talk about what possible equipment the Lebanese Air Force is likely to obtain in the near future, such as surplus Jordanian or Saudi F-5Es , that there was a period back in the 1960s when the USA offered to supply Lebanon with combat aircraft .
The requirement at the time was to replace the Vampires ( around 12-14 ) still operated since the 1950s alongside the Hunters, and Lebanon was offered a squadron of A-4 Skyhawks ( reportedly 18 units ). The LAF tuned down the offer, however, and opted to purchase 12 Mirage-3s from France instead. These were delivered from 1968 onwards, and remained operational until the mid-80s when they were placed in storage,and eventually sold to Pakistan in 2000, although there have been more reports disputing this and claiming that the sale was not completed and the 10 remaining aircraft never delivered but are still in Lebanon.
Whatever the case may be, the far less well aspect of this story is that which dates back again to the 1960s, and which states that after the Lebanese have tuned down the Skyhawks, the US offered the LAF F-8 Crusaders.
I have no way of actually confirming or denying this story, but I think that the prospect of Lebanon operating the Crusader in those days, alongside the USN and the French Aeronavale would have been fascinating indeed.
I hope somebody might be able to shed some more light on this interesting piece of history !
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 86, posted (4 years 5 months 3 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Seasons Greetings and Best Wishes to all for a happy and peaceful New Year 2008.
I am rather surprised that no one has yet come up with any further info on that little obscure footnote of military history regarding the US offer to supply the Lebanese Air Force back in the 1960s ( or maybe it was the early 70s, I am not quite sure ) with a squadron of USN surplus F-8 Cruaaders. I was hoping that some one out there would be able to shed some more light and provide more info about this relatively little-known story. So here I am jogging your good memories again !
Is ther anybody out there?
OD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1904 posts, RR: 43 Reply 87, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
I'm not aware of the F-8 offer back then but since the Air Force was "out shopping" during that period, I'm sure there would have been a variety types offered by different parties. I think they did the right choice by buying the Mirage III. Too bad though the civil war forced the entire fleet of the Mirages to be grounded.
Here's an interesting article forwarded to me by RJAF here a while ago, where the Skyhawk offer to Lebanon is well documented.
OD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1904 posts, RR: 43 Reply 88, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Dear all,
I'm currently in the process of updating the Lebanese Air Force page on Wikipedia. I already made a new and much more friendlier table of the aircraft inventory (current) and am in the process of writing a whole new text instead of the one appearing now. This text gives little info and concentrates on certain and very narrow events in the air forces history.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 89, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Dear OD720,
I went through your revised table of the lebanese Air Force equipment and order of battle summary, and i would like to congratulate you for a job well done. You have managed to incllude all the recent updates and current developments , and I think that you have come up with a very accurate picture of the present status of the LAF. i can not wait to read your revised text and have a look on any new pics you might provide.
With my compliments and thanks again.
RJAF From Jordan, joined Jan 2007, 288 posts, RR: 0 Reply 91, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 32519 times:
So, since Fath Al-Islam terrorists have been defeated, is there still any good reason to revive the Hunters? Things have gone quiet on this forum since the jubilant reports that a few might be made airworthy. What about the puzzling A-3 Skywarriors deal from the US or the interesting F-5E deal from Saudi or Jordan? Any news your end Vatche?
PADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 6 Reply 92, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 32515 times:
Quoting RJAF (Reply 91): What about the puzzling A-3 Skywarriors deal from the US or the interesting F-5E deal from Saudi or Jordan? Any news your end Vatche?
Maybe some F-16As from AMARG would serve the purpose best?
OD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1904 posts, RR: 43 Reply 93, posted (4 years 4 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 32500 times:
Quoting RJAF (Reply 91): since Fath Al-Islam terrorists have been defeated, is there still any good reason to revive the Hunters?
I may be wrong but I think they have given up on the Hunters for now. They were still working on a few frames till November, more than 2 months after the Fath el-Islam battle was concluded. I have not heard anything since.
The current domestic divisions including the failure to elect a new president have slowed things quite considerably but still, the military has manged to sign a few contracts with several parties for enhancing its capabilities. It's only logical that the air force (and the navy) will get their share as well.
Quoting PADSpot (Reply 92): Maybe some F-16As from AMARG would serve the purpose best?
At present, the US will supply Lebanon a few jet trainers only and the F-16A/Bs are not on the list, at least for the next year or so.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 94, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 32263 times:
I certainly agree with OD-720 that plans and ambitions to develop and upgrade the operational capabilities of the Lebanese Air Force seem to be on hold now mainly as a result of the political impasse which Lebanon is facing at the moment pending the election of a new president and the formation of a new government. But I still hope that he is wrong about the re-activation of the Hunters as I strongly believe that it is a very good idea to provide the Air Force with a cheap interim fixed-wing combat element which would serve as an ideal bridge towards a more substantial development plan if and when the political and financial circumstances permit.
Although the need for such a fixed-wing combat capability was high-lighted by the battle against the terrorists in Nahr Al-Bared, the requirementf for such a capability was always clear both within the Air Force and amongst analysts and neutral observers inside and outside Lebanon. We all know that the retirement of the combat element of the LAF in the mid-90s was due to purely political reasons rather than anything to do with operational doctrine or defence requirements.
It remains to be seen what concete steps will eventually be made by a new administration in Lebanon re. the future of the LAF. Of course the hope is that the present political difficulties will end soon and a new president and government get elected democratically and constitutionally as soon as possible, so that the rebuilding and modernization of the LAF can then progress as it should.
Whether such a process includes an interim phase with a few Hunters flying again (as I most certainly hope) or not , nobody can tell at this stage. As for later, I wish the Lebanese can afford the luxury of dreaming of a possible act of US generosity to supply the LAF with a number of surplus F-16A/Bs. But I believe it would be far more realistic for them to limit their ambitions to more probable scenarios such as a few ex-RJAF or RSAF F-5E/F Tigers, and perhaps also a number of surplus multi-role trainer-combat aircraft such as the Hawk or the L-159 Albatross.
But please, anything other than that mind-boggling suggestion of the TA-3 Skywarrior, which I still think was more of a joke than anything serious. We can live with our own old familiar Hunters, but certainly the last thing the LAF needs is a throwback to an ex-USN medium-range strategic bomber ( with no bombs ! ) from the 1950s!
Let us keep looking foreward guys, and please, let us try to remain optimistic !
BA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11097 posts, RR: 68 Reply 95, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 32217 times:
Hi Vatche,
I see on Wikipedia that the LAF has 23 UH-1H Hueys. Does this mean they originally had 24 before one crashed a few years ago? Or have they replaced that one?
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 96, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 32197 times:
Can somebody please correct me if I am wrong.
The Lebanese Air Force received a total of 32 UH-1Hs in two consecutive batches of 16 units each. They put 24 in service, and kept 8 in storage as a source of spare parts and as general reserves. One UH-1H was lost in an accident a while ago , so there should be 23 remaining with the 2 active units, 10sq and 11sq.
Is this info correct as it stands ?
OD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1904 posts, RR: 43 Reply 97, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 32217 times:
Dear BA and Hunterson,
According to Globalsecurity.org, which is very reliabale, there were 32 UH-1H Hueys delivered but data on their website is not very clear and it dates back to 2000. The table says 32 UH-1s and 16 AB-205s which casts some doubt. http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...rld/lebanon/airforce-equipment.htm
According to the official Lebanese Air Force website, the number is 24. So I think I will stick with 24 until we get some sort of info that there were actually more Hueys. As you say, one was lost and was not replaced.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 98, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 32174 times:
Dear OD720.
I am quite sure that the bit about the AB-205s is a straight foreward error as there is absolutely no other source or indicator which has ever mentioned them in relation with the Lebanese Air Force either during that period, or indeed at any other time.
As for the UH-1Hs, I do recall that the official announcement made upon the delivery of the first batch and during the ceremony which was held on the occasion, did infact speak of 16 units, and also mentioned specifically that there will be a second batch at a later date comprising also another 16 units. There was indeed a second batch delivered a couple of years after the first one( the first took place sometime around 96, so the 2nd would have taken place around 98 ).
What is far from certain is whether that second batch had included 16 helicopters or anything less than that.
At least we know that the number assigned to active service was 24 in two squadrons. So were these the total number of UH-1Hs delivered, or were there another 8 which were kept in reserve and used as attrition replacements and for spares, that is really the question which I can not answer with any certainty.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 100, posted (4 years 2 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 31123 times:
It seems that there are some Hunters at least which to all intents and purposes are at near operational status pending the availability of both funds and some minor parts . According to some reliable estimates their number is given at between 5 and 6 aircraft including one two-seater.
But of course the real issue in Lebanon at the moment is the political decision required to put the Hunters back in the air. Everything in the country as I am sure you are aware has now been frozen waiting for a solution to the political crisis which has prevented so far the election of a new president and the resumption of normal political decision-making process.
I am sure the same problem is currently facing the plans to acquire a new type of combat aircraft. The idea was to receive a number of 2nd.-hand aircraft as a gift and the probability was either 6-8 ex-UAEAF Hawk combat trainer-fighters or a similar number of ex-RJAF or even ex-RSAF F-5E Tiger multi-role fighters including a couple of F-5F 2-seaters for conversion training.Some reports even mentioned the possibility of ex-Omani Jaguars.
However, it all seems now to be hanging in the balance with everyone waiting to see the political outcome of the present situation before making any concrete moves.
Hopefully, it will still happen and the Lebanese Air Force will have a renewed fixed-wing jet fighter combat capability back in the skies sometime soon, but before that happens I do believe that it will have to wait until the current political difficulties are over and the country regains its full sovereignty and independence.
OD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1904 posts, RR: 43 Reply 101, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 31046 times:
It's very true what Hunterson says about the political stalemate effecting many plans and projects in the country, including the modernization of the army. However, it seems that plans are being drawn in many areas and that includes the air force as well and I think these would be implemented as soon as a consensus can be reached in some way which will be acceptable by both opposing political camps.
In this context, two small pieces of information was brought to my attention regarding the air force in the past week or so. One says that there is a major deal for helicopters of unidentified type(s) being finalized with the US. The air force has made it clear in the not distant past that it's not satisified with only the Gazelle attack helicopters now in service and wants the enhance the attack fleet with AH-1 Cobras. I'm not sure if this new deal invloves Cobras or just more utility helicopters. We need to wait to find out more about this.
The second and more intersting is the info that Lebanese pilots will carry on trainings on a non-US type modern fighter. We can not tell for sure if this means that the air force will get these jets in the future or not but this fact alone represents a strong possibility. The UAE and the Saudis are ready to fund the purchase of modern jets and the air force has also made clear that they don't want old equipment and are looking forward to a long term solution rather than filling a short time gap with something like the F-5 or Jaguar.
But once again, we shouldn't get carried away with anything before we see some sort of a political settlement which still appears to be difficult to reach.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 102, posted (4 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 31024 times:
I agree totally with our friend OD-720 , and I believe the info which he reported from Lebanon about the plans being laid for the future of the LAF makes a lot of sense . Indeed, it has now become quite clear that away from the politicians, there are still a lot of serious , dedicated and honourable people who believe strongly in the future of Lebanon as a country and as a nation , and who are still busy planning to safeguard and strengthen its national institutions , and especially the Armed Forces.
Let us hope that common sense will prevail , and that Lebanon emerges peacefully and positively from its current political difficulties ( which are largely inflicted from the outside anyway) , so that plans and programmes to develop and improve the capabilities of the national Armed Forces, including the Air Force, can be implemented without further delay.
I believe such a development would certainly enjoy the support of the vast majority of the Lebanese people who are so obviously fed up with outside interference in their affairs and the presence of illegal armed groups in their country.
On a more operational level, I for one woud not mind a reltively modest step-by-step approach , where a few Hunters could form the nucleus for a new and more modern fighting capability ( even for a brief interim period) pending the evaluation and eventual delivery of future combat types.
I also agree with OD-720 about the willingness of the Saudis and the UAE to help in financing the Lebanese efforts, as well as ( hopefully ) the USA and other friendly nations in the West, such as the UK, France and other EU and NATO countries. Afer all Lebanon will need all the help it can get from its friends in the world.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 103, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 30063 times:
Hello to All,
After some absence, here we are back to business !
It was interesting that by complete chance I became aware recently of a website entitled " Lebanon Air Force Museum ".
Until now I had no idea that the Lebanese Air Force had a museum. But obviously they do, and it is located at the Rayak AB, approx. 50 miles ( 80 km. ) east of the capital Beirut.
The site lists the following aircraft at the museum :
While this list might not be comprehensive on its own, it is nevertheless quite interesting on more than one level.
For example, it proves that Hunter F-6 serial no. L-271 was still operational with the LAF until it was placed in storage some 10 or more years ago. No mean feat when we remember that this was actually the very FIRST Hunter delivered to Lebanon back in 1958 as L-171 initially before it was re-serialized L-271 sometime in the mid or late 70s ( it was actually delivered before L-170 which followed later ).
As such, we are talking here about a glorious 50th anniversary of the Hunter in LAF service ( 1958-2008 ).
Also of interest is the preservation of another 50 + year old type ie. the Vampire T-55 L-154 which had apparently served with the LAF from its delivery in 1954 to 1974.
Again, it is quite interesting to note that the presence of such types as the Fouga Magister and the Alouettes with the serial nos. quoted for them proves a lot of info which has so far been firmly in the realm of speculation about their service careers and their successive serial nos. while serving with the LAF.
A few important questions remain though. For example, What about the last remaining Lebanese Dove ( L-110 ) ?
It is known that it was still active until at least the mid or late 80s as a general utility transport and photo recce airplane. Is it still there ? is it part of the LAF museum ? or has it been sold or scrapped ?
Similar questions also relate to other types which had served before, and for quite long periods, with the LAF, such as the T-6 Harvard and the DHC Chipmunk. Are there still any examples of them to be found or seen in Lebanon?
For sure, one Chipmunk ( L-102) was seen in a hangar at Koleiaat AB ( former home to the ex-LAF Mirage-3 squadron until they were sold to Pakistan in 2000 ) and that was as recently as the early 90s.
I am sure hat it would be highly appreciated by all of us who share an interest in the history and equipment of the Lebanese Air Force if any info on these subjects were to be made available by those who happen to know anything about them.
For example, does anyone know anything for certain about the number of Chipmunks which served with the LAF ?
Also, while all available info seem to indicate that Lebanon received a total of 10 Fouga Magisters ( in 2 batches the first 5 from France in 1965-66, and the second from Germany in 1972 ), and that they were initially registered as L-440+, before they were re-serialized as L-400+, and then eventually as L-600+, does anyone have any info about LAF Magisters ever carrying serial nos. in the L-100+ range, even just as an interim or temporary measure ?
I happened to come across an article in the British monthly Air International about the history of the Fouga Magister and it contained a colour drawing of a Lebanese Fouga in silver over-all carrying the serial L-107, which I have never seen before associated wth LAF Fougas !
Was that simply a factual or typing error, or did it tell us something new that we were not aware of before?
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 104, posted (4 years 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 29108 times:
Hello to all,
I wander if anyone has any recent information on the role that the Lebanese Air Force ( if any ) might be playing in the renewed unrest which has unfortunately struck Lebanon during the past few days.
We know that Hizbullah and various other pro-Syrian and pro-Iranian militias have resorted to armed force in an attempt to bring down the democratically elected Government and its various Lebanese allies.
We also know that both the US and the EU, as well as the Arab League have expressed their support for the legitimate Lebanese authorities and their armed forces. The US went one step further by announcing that they intend to speed up military aid destined for the Lebanese Armed Forces which have now been tasked with restoring law and order to the country.
Several units of the Lebanese Army have been deployed in the capital Beirut and various other parts of the country, and it seems that they have managed ( so far ) to bring back some semblance of stability to those areas.
Was the Lebanese Air Force involved in any such activity ?
OD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1904 posts, RR: 43 Reply 105, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks ago) and read 28583 times:
During a surprise vist to Beirut, U.S. Under Secretary of Defence for Policy Eric Edelman told reporters that the US will supply the Lebanese Air Force a number of utility helicopters. He didn't mention the type of the helicopters or anything about the number being considered.
The stratement was made after the US delegation had discussions with Lebanese officials, including President Sleiman, Defence minister Murr and acting army commander Brigadier el-Masri.
In response to a question about the possibility of "aeroplanes" (meaning fighters or jets) for the air force, he stressed that discussions didn't involve such equipment.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 106, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 28491 times:
Quoting OD720:
This is good news for the Lebanese Armed Forces, especially that it comes right after the election ( at long last ) of a new President , who happens to be the former Commander -in Chief of the Army. It also indicates a "vote of confidence" by the US and other friendly Arab and International players in the new President Gen. Michel Suleiman and his new Government led by PM Fouad Seniora.
Undoubtedly, one would have hoped for better things from the US and other friends and allies to satisfy the urgent needs of the Armed Forces, such as combat aircraft, combat helicopters, main battle tanks, self-propelled artillery, ATGWs and air-defence systems.
All of the above are urgently needed for Lebanon to acquire a credible self-defence capability against both internal and regional threats which face the security and stability of the country.
Nevertheless, Lebanon is now at the stage where " anything is better than nothing". As such, the US announcement that they are prepared to supply the Lebanese Armed Forces with more "utility" helicopters, as well as other arms and munitions is absolutely welcome.
Who knows, maybe, hopefully, the next step would be to agree to supply the LAF with some AH-1 Cobras, or even AH-64 Apaches. And what about some surplus F-16 Falcons ?
And , if not from the US, what about the possibilty of a few Hawks and Mirage-2000s from friendly Arab states like Qatar, Saudi Arabia and the UAE?
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 108, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 27982 times:
( Reply to LY744 )
It seems, according to reports from our reliable friends in Beirut that the plans to put the Hunters back into operational service are actually gathering pace and getting much more serious.
After the election of the new president, Gen. Michel Suleiman, the ex. Army Commander and reportedly a keen supporter of the plan to re-activate the fighter element of the Lebanese Air Force, the Hunters are well on their way back to fly, even as an interim measure pending the availability of more mdern equipment in the hopefully near future.
These reliable reports indicate that the LAF will shortly put back in service some 4-5 Hunters, including at least one T-66 2-seater and the rest made up of F-70 single-seaters. These aircraft will be drawn from the 8 Hunters which have been in storage at the Riyak AB since the mid 1990s, and which include 6 F-6/F-70 single-seaters and 2 T-66 2-seaters. it is also known that one F-6 reg. L-271 is currently kept in Riyak as part of the LAF museum.
As for the Mirage-3s which were stored by the LAF since the 1980s, it seems that the lot, comprising a total of 10 machines ( 9 single-seat -3ELs and 1 two-seat -3DL ) have actually been sold and delivered to Pakistan in 2000.
The hopes (and plans) for the LAF now seem to be focused on acquiring some more modern equipment to replace the Hunters in the medium term. These aspirations include the possible (some reliable reports say probable ) delivery of a number of ex. UAEAF Hawk-63 aircraft for use as basic/advanced trainers and light multi-role fighters, the number quoted being some 6-8 aircraft. These could pave the way for the possible delivery at a later date of a similar number of either ex-UAEAF or ex-Qatari AF Mirage-2000s.
If all goes well, these aircraft would then constitute, alongside the Hawks, the basis of the fixed-wing combat element of the LAF in the future.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 109, posted (3 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 26891 times:
Two recent developments worth reporting on the current status of the Lebanese Air Force.
The first is the reported crash landing last month of one of the LAF Gazelles while on a routine training mission somewhere in Eastern Lebanon. Thankfully. the crew of two survived the crash with minor injuries, but it is believed that the helicopter was a write-off. It is not yet known whether the Gazelle involved in the accident was one of the 9 supplied to the LAF last year from the UAEAF, and used extensively at the time as ground support gunships against militant Islamist insurgents during the battles of the Nahr-el-Bared Palestinian refugee camp in the north of the country, or whether it was one of the few remaining Gazelles ( 2-3 units) which the LAF was reportedly planning to refurbish and bring back to operational service from the original 8 which were obtained by Lebanon from France in the 1980s.
On a more cheerful note, the LAF recently took delivery of a new Agusta-Westland AW-139 medium transport helicopter as a personal gift from the Emir of Qatar to the newly-elected President of Lebanon, Gen Michel Suleiman. The AW-139 was handed over in an official ceremony at Beirut AFB, and was added to the LAF inventory, where it will be operated as a VIP transport as well as other support duties as required.
Meanwhile, for all those Hawker Hunter lovers out there, it seems that the LAF plans to put a few Hunters back in srevice, at least for a short interim period, are still going forward.
Despite numerous problems and delays , reports suggest that the plans to re-activate up to 4-5 of the remaining 8 Hunters kept in storage by the LAF since the mid-1990s seem to be still on track, with hopes that the aircraft might be back in the air before the end of this summer.
Nothing is absolutely certain yet, but it is reported that the LAF plan is to operate the re-activated Hunters as an interim measure pending the delivery of 6-8 Hawk trainers and light fighters from the UAEAF, which has apparently pledged to donate them to the LAF in the near future, with reliable reports suggesting that a number of LAF pilots have actually been undergoing training on these aircraft for several weeks now in the UAE.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 110, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 25326 times:
Hello to all,
Some new info has appeared in the recent days about the present staus and future plans of the Lebanese Air Force, which should be interesting to all of you out there.
The UK-based magazine Air Forces Monthly ( airforcesmonthly.com ), has just published a detailed feature on the LAF. Under the title " Lebanese Air Force Resurrection ", AFM sheds a lot of light on a lot of what has been happening with the LAF recently, and seems to confirm several stories which have been circulating about its current capabilities and development plans (and hopes ) for the foreseeable future.
The article is on p.22 of the latest Oct.2008 issue. It is headlined with a previously unseen photo of an LAF Hunter F70A taken on August 14, 2007, probably at Rayak AFB, according to the magazine. The fighter is obviously undergoing repairs, and being readied for operational service.
AFM states that earlier reports about Lebanese Hunters being brought back to service more than a decade after they had been retired " have now been confirmed ". It goes on to say that "one single-seat Hunter F70A and one two-seat T66C have been seen operational at Beirut within the last month or so." The magazine goes on to quote local sources which report that
a total of 3 single-seaters are now operational, with another one on the way, making a total fleet of 6 Hunters, comprising 5 F70/70A single-seaters and 1 T66C two-seater.
AFM states that the machines have been drawn from the remaining Hunters which had been in storage at Rayak AB since the mid-1990s, and whose serial nos. are believed to be as follows:
L-271 ( F6 )
L-275 ( F6 )
L-276 ( F70 )
L-282 ( F70A )
L-284 (F70A )
L-285 ( F70 A)
L-286 ( T66C )
L-287 ( T66C)
AFM also confirms reports that the LAF is plnning to re-introduce the Bulldog trainers into its operational service, and says that 3 of the type, serial nos. probably L-142/144/145 previously seen in storage at Rayak in Feb.2006, are currently being overhauled and refurbished.-
It then goes on to confirm earlier reports about plans to refurbish and bring back into service at least some of the surviving Pumas and AB-212 Twin-Hueys.
It states that there are still 7 AB-212s, serial nos. L-552/555/556/557/558/559/562 out of the original 12 delivered in the 1970s. As for the Pumas, it says there are currently 5 in storage, including SA-330Ls L-901/906, and IAR-330Ls L-907/909/911, out of 12 originally delivered in the 1980s. the plan to refurbish these helicopters is currently being carried out with funding provided by Qatar.
The refurbished helicopters are set to join the present helicopter fleet of the LAF which comprise 23 US-supplied UH-1H Hueys,, 9 UAE-supplied SA-342L Gazelles and 4 Robinson R-44s. The UAE is also supplying 3 more Gazelles to make a total force of 12 attack helicopters armed with a mixture of 12.7mm MG pods, 20mm cannon and HOT ATGWs. The Hueys are mainly used as multi-role utility helicopters for medium lift, assault, rescue, medevac, fire-fighting and logistical support, but have also been modified locally for attack missions, armed with 68mm rocket pods and 250kg and 400kg bombs.
AFM also confirms that LAF pilots had been undergoing training and conversion duties in Jordan, Egypt and the UAE, and indicates that the top priorities for the LAF at present include the aquisition of 4-6 jet fighter-trainers, and a similar number of attack helicopters such as the AH-1 Cobra.
The magazine also mentions the recent delivery to the LAF of an Agusta-Westland AW-139 donated by Qatar to be used for VIP duties, and reports its original identity as US-registered N473TS.
Finally, it should be mentioned that a lot of the info contained in the AFM article support and indeed confirm earlier reports revealed by our friend Vatche on his wonderful site "The Independent Guide to the Lebanese Air Force " which is now probably the best source available on the subject.
OD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1904 posts, RR: 43 Reply 111, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 25225 times:
Great post Hunterson about the recent activities in the air force.
It is also worth adding that Gen. Samir Maalouly has recently been appointed the new commander of the air force replacing Gen. Nouhad Zebian. Maalouly, who has been a Hunter pilot himself, has been given the task to "resurrect" the air force by enhancing its abilities with more attack helicopters and a small squadron of jets.
The repairing of the Bulldogs and some of the stored helicopters, and the recruiting of new generation of jet (fixed wing) pilots come as a direct result of his immediate reshuffling of things inside the air force.
In any case, he has a very ambitious plan for the air force working closely with President Suleiman. Let's hope that he can get the necessary political and financial backing of the government which keeps distracted by other issues in the country.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 112, posted (3 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 25145 times:
Many thanks to OD720 for his kind and generous remarks.
I do agree that with the election of Gen. Michel Suleiman as President, and the recent appointment of Gen Maalouli as Commander, the future of the Lebanese Air Force looks brighter than it has been for a very long time.
At least now we can detect and feel a new sense of urgency and seriousness in the plans to revitalize and modernize the air force, and I honestly find it difficult to believe that any politician in the country would be foolish enough to try to obstruct those plans.
As OD720 rightly and correctly says it is those so-called " distractions" that may yet prove to be the real obstacle. By that I think he means the petty domestic divisions and external pressures which have managed in the past, and may still be able to do so again, in preventing a national consensus on a credible defence policy and posture.
Let us indeed hope that the political and national will would prevail this time.
It is high time that Lebanon gets the armed forces it needs to defend and safeguard its national independence and territorial integrity.
And let us also hope that the plans envisaged for the air force can finally materialize in a proper and realistic manner, including the urgent requirements for a squadron of new jet trainer-fighters, more attack helicopters, as well as additional support and transport helicopters, and ultimately, in the next 2-3 years , a squadron of new-generation multi-role fighters.
It is not much, but it will probably be enough to bring the Lebanese Air Force back to the future .
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 113, posted (3 years 8 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 24772 times:
It seems that the Lebanese Air Force might finally get the AH-1 Cobra attack helicopters, which it had wanted for such a long time.
While nothing official has been announced yet, reliable US and Lebanese sources have expressed their confidence during the last few days about an agreement soon to be finalized between the US Administration and the Lebanese Government on the issue of American support for the Lebanese Armed Forces.
The recently-elected Lebanese President Gen. Michel Suleiman was in Washington earlier this week on what was described by US officials as a " historic visit ", which included meetings with Pres. Bush and Sec. of Defense Robert Gates. it is reliably reported that the talks were focused ( among other things ) on re-equipping and modernizing the Lebanese Armed Forces, including the supply of " Armed Combat Helicopters ".
Although neither the type nor the number of the helicopters concerned were mentioned, it is widely believed that the reports refer to the AH-1 Cobra for which the Lebanese Air Force has had a long-standing requirement.
It is believed that the LAF would like to get some 6-8 Cobras to add to its present fleet of combat and support helicopters, comprising 23 US-supplied UH-1H Hueys, 9 ex-UAEAF armed Gazelles and 4 Robinson R-44s used for training. The LAF is also currently in the process of refurbishing some of the helicopters remaining in its inventory since the 1980s and 1990s, when they were placed in storage. These include some 3 Gazelles, 5 Pumas, and 7 AB-212 Twin Hueys. It is hoped that the refurbished helicopters would be put back in service sometime early in the new year, alongside 5 Hawker Hunter fighters and 3 Bulldog primary trainers, also drawn back into operational service from LAF storage, pending the eventual supply of more modern equipment including multi-role fighters ( the F-5E Tiger, the F-16 Fighting Falcon and the Mirage-2000 have been frequently mentioned as possible contenders ), in addition to a new type of jet advanced trainer-fighter type, such as the BAe Hawk or the Aero L-159 Albatross.
Moe777 From Australia, joined Nov 2004, 51 posts, RR: 0 Reply 114, posted (3 years 8 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 24738 times:
Good news if the Lebanese military end up with AH-1 cobra's, however Israel will apply enormous pressure on the U.S to prevent any such deal, but hopefully things work out.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 115, posted (3 years 8 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 24704 times:
(Quoting Moe777)
You are absolutely correct.
Israel has indeed been applying a lot of pressure , not only to prevent the supply of the Cobras, but also against any meaningful modernization of the Lebanese Armed Forces.
This has been going on now for quite a while, and it does sound rather strange, but it is quite difficult to understand how the Israelis always call upon the Lebanese Government to stand up to the activities of Hizbullah and other armed militias operating in the country, and at the same time do their best to obstruct supplying the Lebanese Armed Forces with the means they urgently need to be able to do so.
Not only this Israeli position is practically the same as that of Syria, but it also comes at a time when Hizbullah enjoys uninterrupted flow of all sorts of weapon systems from both Iran and Damascus, including SAM systems, ATGWs, anti-ship missiles and several medium and long-range SSMs.
However, it seems that the US Administration has finally come to the conclusion that the Lebanese Military should be re-enforced and re-equipped , despite Israeli objections.
It is hoped that the supply of the Cobras will be part of this process, which will also include other urgently needed equipment ( not only from the US, but from other sources too ), such as jet fighters and trainers, more support helicopters, MBTs and AFVs, as well as munitions and spare parts.
Keesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 116, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 24487 times:
Quoting Moe777 (Reply 114): Good news if the Lebanese military end up with AH-1 cobra's, however Israel will apply enormous pressure on the U.S to prevent any such deal, but hopefully things work out.
I think it is in the interest of Israel that Beirut stabilizes and has a broadly supported (may I say democratic) government that can handle its violent minorities if neccessary..
It's about time the families in Beirut get some peace and prosperty..
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 117, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 24373 times:
Many thanks to Keesje. Your observations are spot on.
And what a beautiful picture of the Lebanese coast on the Med, showing Beirut and the mountains behind it.
Compliments all round.
Wvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 499 posts, RR: 0 Reply 118, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 24340 times:
Quoting Hunterson (Reply 115): However, it seems that the US Administration has finally come to the conclusion that the Lebanese Military should be re-enforced and re-equipped , despite Israeli objections.
It is hoped that the supply of the Cobras will be part of this process, which will also include other urgently needed equipment ( not only from the US, but from other sources too ), such as jet fighters and trainers, more support helicopters, MBTs and AFVs, as well as munitions and spare parts.
I dont know what Israel is worried about I doubt any equipment sold to lebanon will be as capable as the equipment we sell to Israel. 6-8 cobras and a few F-16's which I am sure will all be basic packages enough to do the job they need them to do, will not be a significant threat to the Israel airforce.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 119, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 24293 times:
( Quoting Wvsuperhornet )
This is precisely the point.
It obviously does not take a genious to realize that the Lebanese Air Force, and indeed the Lebanese Armed Forces in general, have never, and will never constitute a threat to the IDF.
Lebanon has never had in the past, nor the present , any quarrel with Israel. The situation changed only after the Israelis decided to invade and occupy Lebanese lands in the south of the country as a response to the activities of the PLO during the 1970s and 1980s.
Those activities were as unacceptable, at the time , to the Lebanese Govrnment and local population as they were to the Israelis. Unfortunately, the Lebanese authorities in those days were incapable of putting an end to those activities , mainly as a result of the weakness of their armed forces..
When the Israelis invaded , in 1978 and again in 1982, a lot of the local population welcomed them as saviours from the PLO and other associate militias. But when the Israeli presence turned into an unwanted occupation, and with Syria and Iran quickly filling the vacuum left by the departure of the PLO and its allies, the conflict took a different guise.
This time, it became Hizbullah, backed by Syria and Iran, against the Israeli occupation.,
a situation which the Lebanese Govt. tried so hard to diffuse by repeatedly calling for an Israeli withdrawal and deployment of UN Peacekeeping Forces along the borders.
The situation now provides a huge opportunity for such an arrangement to be reinforced and secured. There is a substantial UN presence along the international borders, operating in coordination with the Lebanese Army under Security Council resolution1701. And while Hizbullah has continued to receive huge amounts of Iranian and Syrian military backing , the border region has remained remarkably quiet, thanks to the presence of UNIFIL forces and the Lebanese Army.
What needs to be done now is to help the Lebanese Army by providing it with its urgent needs and requirements, in order to enable it to perform its duties as the the sole authority on the ground , both on the borders, and all over Lebanese territory. This also means extending assistance to the Lebanese Armed Forces to enable them to stand up to any potential challenge that they might face in that task, whether from Hizbullah or any other armed militia in the country.
That is precicely why supplying the LAF with a few Cobras, or F-16s, or Mirage-2000s, or some additional MBTs and AFVs , will never be a threat to the security of Israel, but a way to establish Lebanese legitimate Govrenment authority over the country, something that should by definition be in the iinterest of all the neighbours of Lebanon, including Israel.,
CF105Arrow From Canada, joined Oct 2007, 304 posts, RR: 0 Reply 120, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 22732 times:
Yesterday, for the fist time in years a Hawker Hunter from the LAF flew over the Bekaa valley. It took of from Rayak Lebanese Air Force Base and flew for an hour before returning to the same base.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 121, posted (3 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 22685 times:
This is great news. It would not be an exaggeration to describe it as a historic flight which confirms the ability of the Lebanese Air Force to refurbish and bring back to active service its Hunters after nearly 15 years of storage, and to do that single-handed and with no outside help what-so-ever.It also restores the fixed-wing jet fighter capability of the airforce after such a long absence.
It is widely believed that there are currently 3 active Hunters ( 2 single-seaters and 1 two-seater), and there are 2-3 other units ( 2 single-seaters and 1 two-seater) which are currently in process of being reactivated , making a possible total of 5-6 aircraft.
These would constitute a useful combat jet component which would serve to train, refresh and familiarize pilots with fixed wing combat operations and tactics, something which the LAF lacked since the mid-1990s.
Of course, no one believes that the rejuvenated Hunters will be anything other than an interim measure pending a more suitable long-term replacement, ideally equipping the LAF with a squadron of more modern fighters, such as the Mirage-2000 or the F-16 Falcon, or even the MiG-29.
But, whatever the long-term plans may be, it is a most welcome development to see the great Hunter back in Lebanese skies and in Lebanese colours.
welcome back old friend, and congratulations to the LAF on their achievement.
OD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1904 posts, RR: 43 Reply 122, posted (3 years 6 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 22048 times:
This is really exciting for both Lebanese Air Force and Hunter fans alike. The Hunters have been making different flying sorties over the capital for the past 10 days or so.
Here's a short footage of the action posted by Zaher on YouTube:
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 124, posted (3 years 6 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 21771 times:
( Re SkyyKat)
Well, first of all, and obviously from a Lebanese Air Force point of view, these Hunters are most certainly better than nothing.
For nearly 15 years the LAF was deprived of a fixed-wing capability. It was simply due to political factors, and with no military or operational sense what-so-ever, that the LAF had to retire all its fixed-wing aircraft shortly after the end of the civil war in the country in the early 1990s. By 1994-5, all the then serving Hunters, Fouga Magisters and Bulldogs were put in storage, although most if not all of them at the time were still in perfect flyable condition.
When the political situation in the country changed in 2005 , after the withdrawal of Syrian troops from Lebanese territiries, it soon became clear that Lebanon does need a viable airforce, with a functioning combat capability, both fixed-wing and helicopter based, regardless of how small and limited such a capability may be.
The easiest, quickest and cheapest way to achieve that capability was to re-activate some of the equipment which had been put in storage years earlier, and most fortunately, had been kept in immaculate condition during that period, thanks to the care and efforts of the LAF crews and technicians.
That is how the plans to re-activate the Hunters emerged originally, and that is also how the LAF is currently working on refurbishing and re-activating other types which have been stored during that period, including the Bulldog trainers, and the Gazelle, AB-212 and Puma helicopters.
As for the Hunters, certainly no one thinks that they will be the ultimate equipment which will provide the LAF with its combat needs in the future. This is simply an interim step, which could serve to re-familiarize the airforce with fixed-wing jet operations , and play a valuable role as somekind of a "conversion unit " pending the availability of more modern equipment. hopefully in the next year or so.
Meanwhile, these vintage fighters still have some potency in the kind of operational role which the LAF has for them, mainly providing close air support for army units, and patrolling Lebanese airspace and coastal waters. It is believed that the LAF still has reasonable stocks of weapon systems for its Hunters, including 250kg and 500kg bombs, 68mm rocket pods and 3 inch (76.2mm) rockets, as well as their 30-mm Aden guns.
Of course, these Hunters will not be intended, nor expected , to be engaging Israeli F-16s or Syrian MiG-29s , and hopefully they will never have to do so during their renewed sevice with the LAF. Equally, there is no doubt that many Lebanese like to see their airforce equipped one day soon with a few F-16s or Mirage-2000s or even MiG-29s of its own.
But what is equally certain is that for these Lebanese, it was a happy and proud occasion to see the beautiful Hunters flying once again over Beirut during the celebrations of Independance Day on 22 Nov.
It must have been a real treat for anyone who was lucky enough to experience it.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 125, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 21429 times:
Dear All,
Just a brief note to let you know that there are now some really brilliant photos of the newly re-activated Lebanese Air Force Hunters by our friend Vatche on www.lebaneseairforce.info.
They are real beauties and they show the lovely birds in full flow.
With thanks and compliments to Vatche on his great work. I think he is doing everyone a big favour.
RJAF From Jordan, joined Jan 2007, 288 posts, RR: 0 Reply 127, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 21326 times:
Wow...great effort Vatche! Finally, Lebanon's hunters are back to life. I raise my hat to all those who participated in making this a reality. So, what is the plan for the Hunters? How long will they soldier on? Who's flying them (pilot experience and training)? How tough was it to bring them back to life again?
OD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1904 posts, RR: 43 Reply 128, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 21317 times:
Quoting AF" class=quote target=_blank>RJAF (Reply 127): Wow...great effort Vatche! Finally, Lebanon's hunters are back to life. I raise my hat to all those who participated in making this a reality. So, what is the plan for the Hunters? How long will they soldier on? Who's flying them (pilot experience and training)? How tough was it to bring them back to life again?
It was a real treat that day at the Rayak AF base, to watch the Hunters in action and being able to capture their glorious comeback.
I'm just guessing here and I think they will fly as long as they have the spares to be able to maintain them. Maybe if they get new jets, they may go to "early" re-retirement once again.
The pilots are the same Hunter pilots from a decade ago, very fun group of people, quite excited with a big smile on their faces.
Bringing back took over a year and a few months so it must have been tough. It may also have set a record here. Is there any other type that has been brought back to service after 15 years of retirement. I mean ever!!!
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 130, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 21064 times:
Just Fantastic. Absolute Beauty !!
Many thanks to OD720, and to the brave men and women of the Lebanese Air Force for providing us with the opportunity to enjoy this sight once again.
Bennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 6006 posts, RR: 2 Reply 132, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 21013 times:
Given that 1 T66 is being returned to service, hopefully some new pilots can be treated as the original pilots must be getting mature.
On replacement in front line service, I hope that they can continue in the training role as happened in the UK and India.
Bennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 6006 posts, RR: 2 Reply 133, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 21011 times:
With 1 T66 being returned to service, we should get some new blood.
When they leave front line service, a new career in training may lie ahead.
OD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1904 posts, RR: 43 Reply 134, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 20952 times:
Quoting AirMalta (Reply 131): Hello Vatche
Its Awesome to see them again.I wish to come there to shoot some pics of them!!
Malcolm
Hey Malcolm,
Long time no hear. You should come, it's like a spotters goldmine
Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 132): Given that 1 T66 is being returned to service, hopefully some new pilots can be treated as the original pilots must be getting mature.
That's the main idea behind making the T.66 airworthy. It's quite old, delivered in 1966. The single seater F.70As which are now airworthy were delivered between 1975-77.
BA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11097 posts, RR: 68 Reply 135, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 20528 times:
Quoting OD720 (Reply 134): The single seater F.70As which are now airworthy were delivered between 1975-77.
Were these delivered brand new? If not, who were the previous operators and when were they built?
Beautiful pictures by the way!
I have to say, I am stunned that they have been brought back into service...
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
OD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1904 posts, RR: 43 Reply 136, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 20493 times:
Quoting BA (Reply 135): Were these delivered brand new? If not, who were the previous operators and when were they built?
Here's the full listing of the latest delivery from Reply 6 of this thread:
L-280ex-WW598Purchased by HSA, as G-9-424. Converted to Lebanese FGA Mk.70. Delivered 08-12-75.
L-281ex-XF457Purchased by HSA, as G-9-422. Converted to Lebanese FGA Mk.70. Delivered 08-12-75.
L-282ex-WW594Purchased by HSA, as G-9-423. Converted to Lebanese FGA Mk.70. Delivered 08-12-75.
L-283ex-XF430Purchased by HSA, as G-9-426. Converted to Lebanese FGA Mk.70. Delivered 17-05-77
L-284ex-XJ644Purchased by HSA, as G-9-427. Converted to Lebanese FGA Mk.70. Delivered 17-05-77.
L-285ex-XJ640Purchased by HSA, as G-9-425. Converted to Lebanese FGA Mk.70. Delivered 01-06-77.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 137, posted (3 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 20425 times:
Just to add a few notes to the info provided by my dear friend OD720, and in response to
the question by BA from the US :
In fact, the last batch of 6 Hunters received by the Lebanese Air Force during 1975-77, as stated by OD-720 earlier, was comprised of 6 single-seat FGA-9s, rebuilt and refurbished "as new" by HSA from RAF stocks. They were designated FGA-70A to distinguish them from the previous batch of Hunters delivered to the LAF during 1965-66. That one included 4 single-seaters, all rebuilt and refurbished by HSA from ex-Belgian AF stocks, upgraded to FGA-9 standard, and designated FGA-70. That batch also included 3 two-seaters from ex-RAF stocks, designated T-66C.
Prior to that, the LAF had received an original batch of 6 single-seat F-6s from ex-RAF stocks,all rebuilt as new, and delivered during 1958-59.
The original F-6s were serialized in LAF service as L-170/171/172/173/174/175. While the follow-up single-seaters were given serials L-176/177/178/179, the 2-seaters were serialed as L-280/281/282.
L-282 was donated to the Royal Jordanian Air Force in 1968. And after the delivery of the 3rd batch in the late-70s, all the remaining Hunters in service were re-serialized in the L-27+ range, hence L-171 becoming L-271.. etc. The remaining 2-seaters got serials following those of the single-seaters, hence L-280 became L-286 and L-281 became L-287.
It is now believed that the Hunters still available to the LAF include at least the following:
L-271 ( F-6 in the LAF museum at Rayak AFB ).
L-275 ( F-6 )
L-276 (FGA-70 )
L-280 (FGA-70A )
L-282 (FGA-70A )
L-284 (FGA-70A )
L-286 (T-66C )
L-287 ( T-66C )
The Hunters which had been brought back to service out of the above are 4 aircraft which include 3 FGA-70A single-seaters L-280/282/284, and 1 T-66C 2-seater L-286.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 138, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 20236 times:
Dear Friends,
It seems that, at long last, the Lebanese Air Force will be getting the modern equipment it so richly deserves.
The Lebanese Defence Minister Elias Murr announced on 16/12/2008 that an agreement has been reached with Russia to supply Lebanon with 10 MiG-29 ( Fulcrum ) fighters. The statement was also confirmed by the Russian Defence Minister, who reiterated the willingness of Moscow to supply the Lebanese with their defence needs.
Mr. Murr is currently on an official visit to Moscow with a shopping list for new equipment required by the various branches of the Lebanese Armed Forces. The list is believed to include tanks, artilliery and air defence systems, in deals which might reach an estimated total of 1 billion USD.
It is believed that Lebanon is also interested in acquiring Russian-made helicopters, possibly including a number of Mil Mi-35 attack gunships.
The news comes at a time when the US has also made public its intentions to help Lebanon rebuild and modrnize its Armed Forces, including the supply of up to 60 M-60A3 MBTs, as well as the possible delivery to the LAF of up to 8 AH-1 Cobra attack helicopters.
These new developments constitute a major, indeed radical, rejuvenation in re-equipping and modernizing the LAF. They come shortly after the LAF has succeeded in putting back into operational service 4 Hawker Hunter fighter jets brought back from storage, and it seems certain that the new MiG-29s are intended as logical replacements for these aircraft, providing the LAF with its first supersonic new generation fighter equipment since the delivery of 12 Mirage-3EL/DL fighters from France back in the late-1960s.
This is obviously fantastic news for the Lebanese Air Force and its fans all over the world, and , no doubt, many people will be waiting to see the MiG-29 flying in LAF colours hopefully some time soon.
It will also be interesting to see whether the LAF will select the Cobra or the Mi-35 , or possibly both, to meet its future requirement for a new attack helicopter.
OD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1904 posts, RR: 43 Reply 140, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 20202 times:
This MiG-29 anouncement took everyone by surprise here. It was quite unexpected. If this is fully excersized, it will be the first eastern made equipment entering service with our air force.
What we need now are some propeller and advanced jet trainers and we can finally retire the long serving Hunters.
LAXintl From United States of America, joined exactly 12 years ago today! , 18936 posts, RR: 52 Reply 141, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 20089 times:
Looks like Russia is gifting the Mig-29s to Lebanon. Talk about a propaganda
Quote: Russia 'to give' Lebanon war jets
17 December 2008
Russia said the jets would help to ensure stability in the region
Moscow is to give 10 MiG-29 fighter jets to Lebanon free of charge, says Russia's state news agency Interfax.
The head of the Russia's defence cooperation body, Mikhail Dmitriyev, said the consignment was "a form of military and technical assistance".
Delivery of the jets to Lebanon will also be paid for by the Russians.
BA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11097 posts, RR: 68 Reply 142, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 20076 times:
Quoting OD720 (Reply 140): This MiG-29 anouncement took everyone by surprise here. It was quite unexpected. If this is fully excersized, it will be the first eastern made equipment entering service with our air force.
This is excellent news indeed, can't wait to see pictures of them, that's your job Vatche.
I know Defense Minister Elias Murr is also negotiating with Russia to buy anti-tank and anti-aircraft defense systems as well as tanks.
I'm glad Lebanon is stepping out of its bubble and not limiting itself to just U.S.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
Kaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 11362 posts, RR: 40 Reply 143, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 20068 times:
Quoting BA (Reply 142): I'm glad Lebanon is stepping out of its bubble and not limiting itself to just U.S.
But realistically, would the US ever sell military equipment to Lebanon? The Israeli lobby would have a fit.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 141): Anyhow - should make for some good target practice by the IAF in coming years.
My thoughts exactly; I'm sure that the IDF has had plenty of opportunity to model potential combat situations with the MiG-29, either "against" the Luftwaffe in US "Red Flag" exercises or in actual combat against Syria. There are so many factors which make the effective use of these aircraft almost impossible; the Israelis will have far better early warning systems, better pilot training (and experience) and of course, any possible base for these aircraft would be within easy reach of Israeli missiles; I think it would be a major achievement if they actually got airborne in a combat situation.
BA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11097 posts, RR: 68 Reply 144, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 20044 times:
Quoting Kaitak (Reply 143): But realistically, would the US ever sell military equipment to Lebanon? The Israeli lobby would have a fit.
Modernizing Lebanon's armed forces is a priority of the current pro-Western government and so far U.S. military aid has been limited to basic military equipment to Lebanon, mainly limited to trucks, Humvees, and ammunition. The U.S. has recently offered to supply Lebanon with M60A3 tanks which are antiquated which is why I'm not sure if Lebanon is going to accept them.
Military aid offers were made by Russia as far back as 2005, but were turned down by the Lebanese government in order to not alienate the U.S., but this policy has now changed because of the U.S.' reluctance to supply Lebanon with heavy weaponry for reasons you mentioned.
Lebanon's Defense Minister is negotiating with his Russian counterpart to supply Lebanon with anti-aircraft and anti-tank defense systems as well as modern tanks.
This MiG-29 deal was a surprise and unexpected.
[Edited 2008-12-17 14:16:48]
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 146, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 20022 times:
Many thanks to Spacepope for the perfect reply to LAXintl.
Lebanon has never been interested , nor has it ever initiated or instigated aggression against any of its neighbours. Indeed , it has always been the victim of such aggression., be it from Israel or Syria.
The fact that the Lebanese Government has finally decided to embark on a reasonable and serious effort to rebuild and modenize the legitimate Armed Forces of the country should be applauded by anyone who is interested in maintainig security and stability in the region.
The Israelis have always complained that the Lebanese authorities do not do enough to control their territories and borders from incursions by such groups as Hizbullah and the various Palestinian organizations. Yet, every time Lebanon embarks on an effort to enhance its military capabilities Israel ( and Syria of course ) join forces to block it or derail it, simply because the two "neighbours" have an equal interest in keeping Lebanon as a convenient proxy theatre of operations, and a scapegoat.
So, if LAXintl. thinks that the new Lebanese MiG-29s will be "good target practice " for the IDFAF, then perhaps he should better ask why the same did not apply to the Syrian MiG-29s which have been there for many years ??
No one in Lebanon, or outside it, would be in his or her right mind, if they were to think for a moment that 10 MiG-29s will change the military balance between Lebanon and its troublesome neighbours., just as restoring 4 Hawker Hunters back to service was ever intended to turn Lebanon into a regional superpower.
But, it is a vital move aimed at restoring the confidence and the self-respect of a nation that does not want more than defending its borders and territories , and above all, its independence and soverignty. Is there any one who is against that ?
Well. if there are, then tough luck. And thanks to Russia, and the US, and the UAE, and Jordan, and Egypt, and Saudi Arabia, and Germany, and Belgium and France, and to every other country that has come forward to help this small, resilient and beautiful nation stand up and be counted. Lebanon and the Lebanese deserve that from the world.
LAXintl From United States of America, joined exactly 12 years ago today! , 18936 posts, RR: 52 Reply 147, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 19867 times:
Quoting Hunterson (Reply 146): So, if LAXintl. thinks that the new Lebanese MiG-29s will be "good target practice "
Because sooner or later, there exist the possibility that Israel will strike Lebanon again, and hence its bases and any planes parked there could be targets.
In practical terms of course the Lebanese AF is no match for Israel however this does not mean Israel cant or wont make target practice out of them when it becomes necessary.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
Jackonicko From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2008, 472 posts, RR: 11 Reply 148, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 19847 times:
The Lebanese won't hold back the might of the IDF/AF, of course, but ten MiG-29s will complicate Israeli planning if they decide to undertake another aggression, and might even take a few of the aggressors with them. They'll also be able to impose a price if Israeli recce aircraft decide to intrude....
BA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11097 posts, RR: 68 Reply 149, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 19810 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 147): Because sooner or later, there exist the possibility that Israel will strike Lebanon again, and hence its bases and any planes parked there could be targets.
Doesn't matter, what you're saying isn't new. Lebanon has been bombed by Israel numerous times, 2006 wasn't the first time. In 1968 (in fact, the 40th anniversary is in just 10 days), the Israelis destroyed two-thirds of MEA's fleet on the ground in BEY including a brand new 707. The airline however was able to quickly recover despite the heavy losses.
Sadly it's become routine, but the Lebanese have the will and resolve to recover quickly. Material things can be replaced.
If the Mig-29s get blown up by the Israelis, they can be replaced. Remember that Lebanon went through a 15-year civil war from 1975 to 1990 exhausting much of its military arsenal in the process, but it kept replenishing it and is in the process of its biggest replenishment since the 1980's.
Sadly, the replenishment of military arsenals of militias during the civil war was one of the factors that prolonged the war.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 150, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 19826 times:
" target practice,,"
( Quoting LAXiktl - Reply 147 )
I totally agree with both Jackonicko and BA.
The point is simply that Lebanon needs to defend itself, and has no interest or intention to attack any one.
Of course the IDFAF enjoys air superiority over its neighbours in the region, and Lebanon has never tried to to either change or even match that.
This fact does not mean, however, that Lebanese aircraft should automatically be termed as "target practice" for their Israeli counterparts. Indeed, there has been only one documented incident of an aerial confrontation between the LAF and the IDFAF. It happened on 5 June 1967, at the beginning of the 6 -Day War. Although Lebanon was not party to that conflict, Israeli aircraft were using its airspace during their attacks on Syria. On one occasion a flight of 4 IDFAF Mystere-4As was intercepted by 4 LAF Hunters resulting in the shooting down of one of the Israeli aircraft, over the village of Kfar Mishki in the Bekaa Valley, with the pilot captured.. It took the intervention of a pair of Israeli Mirage-3Cs to get the remaining Mysteres out of trouble shooting down in the process one of the Lebanese Hunters ( believed to have been an F-70 reg either L-177 or L-179 ), with the pilot tragically killed.
Both sides decided to conveniently keep that encounter under wraps, and the Israeli pilot was quietly handed back . Although the incident and its outcome became some kind of an open secret , even a "cause celebre " amongst the military on both sides of the divide, it seems no one wanted to talk about it in public. After all, Lebanon never really wanted to get invoved in the war, while the Israelis ( as usual ) did not want to reveal that one of their planes was shot down in air-to-air combat. In fact, it was only a couple of weeks ago when the LAF first mentioned this incident " officially" in a brief biography of the Hunter in Lebanese service, issued on the occasion of its reintroduction into operational status last Nov.
So, far from being " target practice" , the encounter between the LAF and the IDFAF turned out to be a "draw ". Not bad when one considers the odds against it.
As for the new MiG-29s, one can only hope that they will never have to fire their guns and missiles in anger against anybody.
But, as everyone also seem to agree, from the US to Russia, a rejuvenated Lebanese Armed Forces, including the MiG-29 equipped LAF, can only be in favour of more security and stability both in Lebanon and for its neighbours.
GoMEA From France, joined Jan 2004, 202 posts, RR: 10 Reply 151, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 19925 times:
Before turning this forum into a sterile political discussion serving the propaganda of any side, the MIGs will come in handy to firstly protect Lebanon from assaults inside the territory...
We had the Nahr Al Bared event where some good weaponery would have made it easier to nail the terrorist hiding there with precise targeting... it could also be a moving target like a car, trucking equipment moving "illegal" weapons...
... and of course, defend the nation against any form of invasion. Nobody wants to attack Israel or Syria at this stage. Even during the conflict, the LAF remained "neutral"...
So Migs or not, it's the sovereignty of the country at stake. Bear in mind that the Mig is a late 1970s design, so already 30 years old (if we are talking about early version, with basic avionics and weapons)
RJAF From Jordan, joined Jan 2007, 288 posts, RR: 0 Reply 152, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 18992 times:
I would like to congratulate the LAF on the Mig-29s and welcome Lebanon back to the ‘Mach 2’ club although personally I believe that this is not the best of purchases. Lebanon - similar to Cyprus - needs an effective and sophisticated anti aircraft missile system to tackle the belligerent and mighty IAF should push come to shove. Advanced SAM batteries/systems is what is needed as 10 Mig-29s will not do much. I share the view of Hunterson that peaceful and life loving Lebanese will not be picking fights with their nosy neighbors who do not seem to want to leave Lebanon alone. Not wanting to turn this into a political post, yes, Lebanon needs the effective SAMs plus effective light ground attack aircraft that are cheap, easy to maintain and operate but yet can deliver a powerful punch to whoever wants to mess with Lebanon – I would say mainly from within - such as the terror group Fath al Islam. The Hunters will be great, a few Super Tucanos or PC-9s with teeth should do the job. Nevertheless, I enthusiastically await seeing these great Migs in Lebanese camouflage and flying a ‘cedar’ formation.
Hunterson From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 144 posts, RR: 0 Reply 153, posted (3 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 18904 times:
Many thanks to RJAF for his remarka ( Reply 152 ), and accurate analysis about the Lebanese Air Force and its future plans.
He is quite right in calling for Lebanon to have a credible SAM air-defence system. Also, he is quite right in his view that the LAF needs a reasonably cost-effective capability in ground attack and close support COIN missions, probably best served by types such as the Super Tucano and the PC-9, as well as helicopter gunships.
Hopefully, some of these requirements will be met in due course, through the procurement of Cobra or Mil-35 helicopters, and Cessna-208 Caravan armed COIN and RECCE aircraft.
But, when you get an offer , like the one put forward by Russia, to provide a squadron of MiG-29s free of charge, including the training of pilots and ground crews, then it becomes rather difficult to say no. It is indeed an offer no one in their right minds can refuse.
At the end of the day, it is a step forward, which would put the LAF back in the 21st , century , and welcome it back to the "Mach 2 Club " , as RJAF said, amongst the rest of the world air forces..
So, why not ?
Let us all hopefully enjoy the sight of the beautiful Fulcrums in LAF colours flying in Lebanese skies. They will definitely be worthy successors to the equally beautiful Hunters and Mirages which preceded them.
Rolfen From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 1754 posts, RR: 2 Reply 157, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 14344 times:
I was driving down the coastal highway to tripoli yesterday and saw the cessna 208 of the LAF flying very low (like 60m), in the opposite direction and slightly to my left.
It was painted in dark green and it looked awesome.
OD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1904 posts, RR: 43 Reply 158, posted (2 years 12 months 9 hours ago) and read 14186 times:
Dear friends,
As you can see, Hunterson's death was a big loss even to this thread that he always somehow liked to keep it fresh and alive.
Going to the real stories in the past few months, the air force recieved a Cessna 208 Caravan from the US last month armed with Hellfire missiles. This can be considered a good addition for much needed COIN missions and the US has promised 2 more of the same type.
Earlier in the year, the UAE anounced that it will give 10 Puma utility helicopters and these are expected to arrive around August of this year.
The previously anounced deal for 10 MiG-29 fighters appears to be still on with the latest from the Russian side saying that the first 2 out of 10 should joint the LAF in November and in time for the Independence parade.
Alongsie the MiG-29 deal, the air force is still seeking advanced jet trainers. A few possibilities have been considered including Chinese K-8s from Egypt but it seems that progress is being made on BAe Hawks.
Finally, in the next few days, Lebanon will take delivery of 3 Sikorsky S-61Ns firefighting helicopters which will be operated by the air force.
Rolfen From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 1754 posts, RR: 2 Reply 159, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 13792 times:
Quoting OD720 (Reply 158): Finally, in the next few days, Lebanon will take delivery of 3 Sikorsky S-61Ns firefighting helicopters which will be operated by the air force.
There are billboards over the city depicting these. Im not sure what the message of the ad is, I will pay attention next time I see it.
OD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1904 posts, RR: 43 Reply 161, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 12879 times:
Quoting RJAF (Reply 160): Interesting. Where are these coming from? Any troop carrying capabilities?
They bought these from Bristow helicopters in the UK. Two are delivered and the 3rd is expected this week.
They will be used for SAR and firefighting missions and be operated by the air force.
Troop carrying is done by the Hueys and the expected 10 Pumas which should be delivered next month.
Arz From Australia, joined Nov 2009, 1 posts, RR: 0 Reply 163, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 9380 times:
I've been reading for a long time, but this is my first post. So a big hello to everyone.
Just thought i would post an update about the LAF.
According to reports, a Russian military delegation will be visiting Lebanon to inspect air bases ahead of the MiG-29 arrival. Also the first batch of Puma helicopters will be arriving in the new year.
Keesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 164, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 9372 times:
Quoting OD720 (Reply 161): OD720 From Lebanon, joined Feb 2003, 1897 posts, RR: 48
Quoting Rolfen (Reply 159): Rolfen From Lebanon, joined Jan 2006, 1474 posts, RR: 2
As long as I've lived I remember Libanon as a place of civil wars, a play ball between different power blocks, religien etc. taking the place apart again and again.
How do you feel aviation is going. National stability seems to be key. Is there a common fleeing among the different blood groups that peace is beneficial to all and investments should be made to keep it this way?
L-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 28959 posts, RR: 66 Reply 165, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 9286 times:
Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 118): I dont know what Israel is worried about I doubt any equipment sold to lebanon will be as capable as the equipment we sell to Israel.
That may not be a disadvantage.
I was reading a book about the Cobra in Nam and the author said the earlier versions where more battle hardy. They where not full of black boxes that became ballast and inop systems if they took at hit.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
ramzi From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 534 posts, RR: 0 Reply 166, posted (2 years 2 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 7137 times:
Quote: Lebanon, Russia Sign Military Cooperation Memo… No Mention of MiG 29s
President Michel Suleiman has met Russian President Dmitry Medvedev in Moscow in the first ever visit by a Lebanese head of state to Russia where he signed a memorandum on bilateral military cooperation.
Medvedev, whose country is keen to preserve influence in the Arab world that dates back to Soviet times, described the visit as a "landmark event" in relations between Moscow and Beirut.
Suleiman, who in turn labeled the visit as historic, hailed Medvedev for his support of Lebanon.
He said the two sides had discussed signing a long-term military cooperation agreement.
"It is a framework agreement and is planned to be signed in the near future," said the head of Russia's military-technical cooperation agency, Mikhail Dmitriyev.
There was no mention, however, of past promises by Russia to deliver 10 MiG-29 fighter jets as a gift for the Lebanese military.
The issue of MiG-29s had been discussed by Lebanese defense minister Elias Murr and his Russian counterpart in December 2008.
Under the plan, the MiG-29s would be modernized before being handed over to Lebanon and the cost of transport of the warplanes would be paid for by the Russian defense ministry.
Local media had said Suleiman would be raising the possibility of the MiG fighter jets being replaced by other hardware better suited to the needs of the Lebanese army.
Beirut, 26 Feb 10, 10:05
I see that the last post was a few days before the Independence day parade. Participants of this thread will be pleased to know 3 Hawker Hunters and iirc 4 Cessna 208s participated, as well as the extensive fleet of Huey choppers and the new Sikorsky's. Sad news that we may not get the MiGs after all.
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