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Iran Tests Upgraded F5  
User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2888 posts, RR: 3
Posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 21481 times:

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=17387

A double-finned F5! Interesting... I just saw it on Portuguese TV as well...



Iran on Wednesday said it has developed a new warplane named "Thunder," which it described as similar to the American F-18 fighter jet.

The fighter jet is "similar to the F-18 fighter jet, but it is more capable and has been manufactured domestically," the commander of the Iranian army General Attollah Salehi was quoted as saying by the state news agency IRNA.

Iranian state television reported that the jet "is able to fire rockets and also to drop bombs and is equipped with an advanced radar system.

"The fighter jet Saegheh (Thunder), after successful military operations and accurately firing air-to-surface rockets in the Zolfaghar Blow maneuvers, came into the service of the Iranian air force today," the report said.

The air force, army and navy have been showing off their capabilities and new hardware for the last month in the Zolfaghar Blow war games, which come amid mounting international concern over Tehran's nuclear programme.

The report added "the plane, which has flown dozens of experimental flights during the last year, joined the air force with full fighting capacity."

Salehi told IRNA the jet was "designed, remodeled, optimized and made more capable by our engineers," and added that "no country has aided us in its production."
[...]


http://www.payvand.com/news/06/sep/1068.html



The reports say the remodeled plane, called the Thunderbolt (Saequeh, in Persian) was redesigned and upgraded using only Iranian expertise and equipment. The jet carries a locally built missile with the same name.

Iran's army chief, Ataollah Salehi, is quoted as saying the new fighter carried out a mock bombing mission Wednesday, in northwestern Iran. He added that Iran received no outside help for the project.


[Edited 2006-09-06 22:10:42]


I scratch my head, therefore I am.
37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePtrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3921 posts, RR: 18
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 21474 times:

Interesting... Any thoughts about the benefits of twin tails for the F-5, since even the F-20 Tigershark didn't have them?

Also, are there any indications Iran is building, or going to build, new F-5s/Saequehs?

Peter



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7948 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 21431 times:

Quoting Ftrguy (Reply 2):
ROTFL

Don't be so condescending.  Wink
Look, with three hardpoints, proven engines and a back view that keeps distracting details off from the pilot's view, the F-5 YF-17 Saegheh has to be superior.

Here's a video:

http://www.iribnews.ir/media/tv/ch1/14-00/today.asf

Note the Saegheh even has the F-5's high front gear during take-off. And they call their guided bombs GBU - just like the Americans.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7948 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 21422 times:

Is the two-seater supposed to be "new" as well? I mean, a closer look at the wear and tear of the cockpit indicates that the plane is a bit older.




I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7948 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 21408 times:

An then they have this mockup(?):

http://www.iribnews.ir/newspic/04/08/10/06rsh2.jpg

Edit: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iran/shafaq.htm

[Edited 2006-09-07 00:10:03]


I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4794 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 21382 times:

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Thread starter):
Iran on Wednesday said it has developed a new warplane named "Thunder," which it described as similar to the American F-18 fighter jet.



Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Thread starter):
The fighter jet is "similar to the F-18 fighter jet, but it is more capable and has been manufactured domestically,



Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Thread starter):
"the plane, which has flown dozens of experimental flights during the last year, joined the air force with full fighting capacity."



Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Thread starter):
the jet was "designed, remodeled, optimized and made more capable by our engineers," and added that "no country has aided us in its production."

Time for saber-rattling again. The only things that look similar to the F/A-18 are the twin tailfins. It's a flat-out F-5 hack job. But I do notice a somewhat larger spine. Indeed, no country has aided in its production other than providing the airframes for the conversion. The touted capabilities I would take with a generous helping of salt (although the F-5 is an excellent foundation for upgrades in the right hands.) I wonder how it would fare against its late cousin, the F-20 were it also updated and still around.....  Wink

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Photo © AirNikon




"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineGlideslope From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1611 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 21347 times:

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Thread starter):
Iranian state television reported that the jet "is able to fire rockets and also to drop bombs and is equipped with an advanced radar system.

Ok, that's a good thing, right? I'll wager it can retract it's gear also.  bigthumbsup 

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Thread starter):
The air force, army and navy have been showing off their capabilities and new hardware for the last month in the Zolfaghar Blow war games, which come amid mounting international concern over Tehran's nuclear programme.

Come on. It's for electricity. I heard the Mullah Omar himself say so.
 angel 

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Thread starter):
Salehi told IRNA the jet was "designed, remodeled, optimized and made more capable by our engineers," and added that "no country has aided us in its production."
[...]

Obviously.
 bored 



To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4794 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 21341 times:

On second thought, this could be a better gauge of the Saequeh's capabilities.....

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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Dennis Chang



A fly-off between the two would be very interesting!



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineJ.mo From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 661 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 21335 times:

I kept looking for the link to "The Onion" or ModifiedJetfighters.net. What a complete hack job.

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Thread starter):
he fighter jet is "similar to the F-18 fighter jet, but it is more capable and has been manufactured domestically," the commander of the Iranian army General Attollah Salehi was quoted as saying by the state news agency IRNA

^That is some funny stuff...

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Thread starter):
Salehi told IRNA the jet was "designed, remodeled, optimized and made more capable by our engineers," and added that "no country has aided us in its production."

Next we will see their F-14's modified with one tail and the same text above quoted.

JM



What is the difference between Fighter pilots and God? God never thought he was a fighter pilot.
User currently offlineMissedApproach From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 713 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 21306 times:

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Thread starter):
similar to the F-18 fighter jet, but it is more capable

So they're claiming it's more capable than a plane that first flew in 1978? Bravo! I notice that no figures are provided of course.

Quoting J.mo (Reply 9):
Next we will see their F-14's modified with one tail

 laughing 



Can you hear me now?
User currently offlineSpacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2914 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 21277 times:

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 6):
The only things that look similar to the F/A-18 are the twin tailfins

Oh come now. It has squared intakes now, making it equivalent to the Super Hornet! It's even missing wingtip missile rails, just like the EA-18G, which the yankee imperialists haven't even put into service! And no distraction of looking behind you either!

Clearly superior in every way!



The last of the famous international playboys
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4794 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 21276 times:

Quoting J.mo (Reply 9):
Next we will see their F-14's modified with one tail

And fixed geometry wings!  Smile



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineBladeLWS From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 403 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 21266 times:

This is just to funny. Putting twin tails on a F-5, for what? Maybe a smidgin of more manuverability.

They need to learn that they will never see combat. If any war starts with them their entire air force will be taken out by stealth bombers and cruise missiles from the Navy before they can know whats happening. And if anything happened to escape and get airborne, it would be a good test for our Raptor's...


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29792 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 21254 times:

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 6):
t's a flat-out F-5 hack job.

They seriously ripped Jim Bede off.

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Photo © Peter Unmuth-VAP



Quoting J.mo (Reply 9):
Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Thread starter):
he fighter jet is "similar to the F-18 fighter jet, but it is more capable and has been manufactured domestically," the commander of the Iranian army General Attollah Salehi was quoted as saying by the state news agency IRNA

^That is some funny stuff

Agreed, that thing doesn't look like it can lift more avionics then an F-5, and there isn't a lot in that airplane to begin with.

Now has it been confirmed that these are new build aircraft or just rebuilds of near 30 year old airframes.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 21093 times:

Mexico or Venezula will have a better Air Force with their Sue's.

User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4794 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 21075 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 15):
that thing doesn't look like it can lift more avionics then an F-5

I wonder whether the Iranians changed the engines? Remember that the Tigershark had impressive climb performance when the powerplant was converted to a single F404(?) from two J85s in the F-5.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2888 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 20980 times:

Now back to the aerodynamics part of this, what would be the advantage of double tailfins? Increased stability yes, but at the cost of extra drag. And was the stability that much of a problem in the original design?

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 5):
An then they have this mockup(?):

I'd be curious to know who that woman is. A fighter pilot? A politician? Why do they interview her about that plane?



I scratch my head, therefore I am.
User currently offlineGary2880 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 20975 times:

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 19):
Now back to the aerodynamics part of this, what would be the advantage of double tailfins?

sounds like a daft idea to me anyway. surely this simple idea would have been thought of during the development and thus scrubbed, for good reason no doubt?

not sure why you would want to go tampering with such things myself. If it wasn't like that in the first place, there must be a reason for it. my way of thinking anyway.

(for those that question my consistency, i wished them the best with their attempt, i didn't necessarily say it was a good idea  WinkBig grin


User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4794 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 20965 times:

Quoting Gary2880 (Reply 18):
why? because they updated a design?

Not for you, if you have to ask why.

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 19):
Why do they interview her about that plane?

Maybe she's a member of the design team?  boggled  But that rare model on the stand would be a nice addition to a collection.  Smile



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 20952 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 15):
Now has it been confirmed that these are new build aircraft or just rebuilds of near 30 year old airframes.

Reading various articles it seems they are rebuilds. Building new would require tooling which they do no have.


User currently offlinePtrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3921 posts, RR: 18
Reply 20, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 20919 times:

Quoting Gary2880 (Reply 20):
surely this simple idea would have been thought of during the development and thus scrubbed, for good reason no doubt?

Well, when the F-5 was designed there were no fighters with twin tails if I'm not mistaken, except the oddball F7U Cutlass and YF-12. I think it's possible that it was simply not given a thought back then.

The wild Iranian claims about the origin of this aircraft are not even worth debating - odd that most people in this thread concentrate on them, rather than on the aircraft itself.
If we agree that this modification is real, then obviously at least the Iranians themselves think there may be advantages to this. The quick assumption that Iran's aerospace industry is not capable of anything at all is ignorant. Are some people aware that Iran is not a stretch of desert like Libya, but a large nation with over three times the population of Iraq?



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7948 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 20899 times:

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 19):
I'd be curious to know who that woman is. A fighter pilot? A politician? Why do they interview her about that plane?



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 21):
Maybe she's a member of the design team?

That's right; the source where I got the picture from, indeed says she worked on the the design of the aircraft.
Women in high ranking positions are rare in Iran, but they exist and their number is growing.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4794 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 20879 times:

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 23):

The wild Iranian claims about the origin of this aircraft are not even worth debating

On the contrary, no one's debating that, as there seems to be a concensus as to the a/c's provenance.

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 23):
- odd that most people in this thread concentrate on them, rather than on the aircraft itself.

Absent official a/c and performance data, we'd only be limited to speculations.

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 23):
If we agree that this modification is real, then obviously at least the Iranians themselves think there may be advantages to this.

Hence the implied question on the engines being replaced with more powerful types - which might have required the twin tailfins for better stability.

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 23):
The quick assumption that Iran's aerospace industry is not capable of anything at all is ignorant.

The very existence of this aircraft gives the lie to that. In any case, the Saequeh and the Ching-kuo is a very interesting study in contrast - and make a very compelling case for another (forgettable?) installment of Iron Eagle!  Smile



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlinePtrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3921 posts, RR: 18
Reply 23, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 20867 times:

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 25):

Absent official a/c and performance data, we'd only be limited to speculations.

Isn't speculating all that is ever done here?  Good post though Devilfish.

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 19):
was the stability that much of a problem in the original design?

I seem to recall that there actually was a stability problem with the Dutch NF-5 aircraft. I think stability was so marginal that the aircraft was banned from flying with non-finned tip tanks, something like that.

[Edited 2006-09-08 02:08:43]


The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineEBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (7 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 20845 times:

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Thread starter):
The report added "the plane, which has flown dozens of experimental flights during the last year, joined the air force with full fighting capacity."

This appears to be about the highly modified F-5E. But what is the airplane that shows up in the 4 pictures clustered together? It's a whole new design and it'd be interesting to hear how far along it has come.



Dare to dream; dream big!
25 DEVILFISH : Is that a bomb or rocket launcher slung under the Saequeh's wing in the third picture? Looks a lot like the F-5's 25mm gun. The link in Reply 5 has a
26 F14D4ever : Okay, since we're speculating, let's run with this. Any guesses what engine they would have installed in place of J85's? What's out there that would
27 Post contains links Lumberton : Here's a reasoned look at Iran's claims: http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...h-fighter-enters-service/index.php
28 DEVILFISH : This quote from the linked article in Reply 27 obviates the need for that..... "The reports were careful not to tout new engines or the ability to fi
29 BuyantUkhaa : Mods did some thorough cleaning here. Don't remember what his post was about though...
30 Ptrjong : If I'm not mistaken it was an interesting assessment of the Saequeh's capabilities. Nothing like the mud-throwing by some other people.
31 DEVILFISH : So if it was "interesting" and not "mud-throwing" why did they have to delete it?
32 Acontador : If you look closely at the pictures, you can find following aerodynamicall modifications: 1. Twin fin. 2. Squared engine intakes. 3. New, slightly big
33 Dougloid : Guys, the moderators cleaned my clock because of some intemperate language that was used between myself and another poster of the scottish persuasion
34 MCIGuy : This is simply the latest round of chest beating by the IRI. They're very worried (rightfully so) that they're going to soon lose their reactors and t
35 Post contains images DeltaGuy : Funny though, he's wearing a 70's era American helmet and mask (of course, Iran colors applied). Wonder how it feels to fly with American gloves too.
36 Texfly101 : You got my vote...go get 'em tiger...now will this get deleted? Seriously tho, this is just a PR flack item, done at the governments instruction for
37 Dougloid : Nahhhhhhh, I'm a goooooooood doggie now LOL. If this is typical of what they are dreaming up (along with built in Iran reverse engineered North Korea
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