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Usmc Looks To Revive OV-10s For Use In Iraq  
User currently offlinePapoose From Italy, joined Sep 2006, 28 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 14309 times:

I don't know if somebody has already spoken about this:

USMC looks to revive OV-10s for use in Iraq
BY: Joshua Kucera, Jane's Defence Weekly*
04/12/2006

http://aimpoints.hq.af.mil/display.cfm?id=10607&printer=yes

I don't have found nothing searching the forum.

Since the article is six month old, is there any news about this very intriguing topic.

43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBoeing Nut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 14303 times:

Another aircraft in the category of the A-10. Low 5's on attractiveness, high 9's on effectiveness.


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Good idea though IMO.


User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4781 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 14272 times:

Quote:
"We've got dozens of systems operating over there but there's a big logjam in the [intelligence] pipeline, and everyone knows it."


It certainly won't do acknowledging the effectiveness of boneyard relics when there are billion $ being spent on "state-of-the-art" and "leading-edge" ISR platforms. Besides, battlefield commanders would think several times before committing such high-value assets in high-attrition environments.

Makes one wonder what is more dispensable in their view.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineTedTAce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 14248 times:

OV-010. Probably the only prop airplane I'd LIKE to own instead of a jet.

User currently offlineSpacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 14245 times:

I love the OV-10, however besides weapons payload, what exactly does the OV-10 bring to the table that a Predator or two can't?


The last of the famous international playboys
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 14232 times:

Quoting Papoose (Thread starter):
USMC looks to revive OV-10s for use in Iraq

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it...Amazing how all the lessons about troop support learned in Vietnam have been forgotten. It is an old enough article I wonder if it happened or happening.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 2):
It certainly won't do acknowledging the effectiveness of boneyard relics when there are billion $ being spent on "state-of-the-art" and "leading-edge" ISR platforms. Besides, battlefield commanders would think several times before committing such high-value assets in high-attrition environments.

The irony is striking.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 3):
I love the OV-10, however besides weapons payload, what exactly does the OV-10 bring to the table that a Predator or two can't?

Fly low, decend itself, carrry a small cargo load, and I am pretty sure the weapons load is heavier.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12128 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 14233 times:

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 1):
Another aircraft in the category of the A-10.

Well, not exactly. The OV-10 is a great airplane, but it certinetly is not in the same category as the A/OA-10.

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 4):
I love the OV-10, however besides weapons payload, what exactly does the OV-10 bring to the table that a Predator or two can't?

An exposed flight crew.


User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 14219 times:

I always thought the Marines were the ones who should have been flying the A-10 even if they couldn't get it on deck of an amphib assault carrier...



Screw the OV-10, bring back the Corsair to the tune of the F2G or some new turbine powered example!

http://www.air-and-space.com/20060521%20Chino/DSC_6300%20F4U-1A%20NX83782%20F2G-1%20N5588N%2057%20right%20side%20in%20flight%20l.jpg

F7F Tigercat

http://www.air-and-space.com/20060521%20Chino/DSC_6215%20F7F-3N%20N805MB%20Big%20Bossman%20left%20side%20taxiing%20l.jpg


AD-6 Skyraider



User currently offlinePapoose From Italy, joined Sep 2006, 28 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 14208 times:

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 7):
always thought the Marines were the ones who should have been flying the A-10 even if they couldn't get it on deck of an amphib assault carrier...

Me too, but when it enters service was the US Army in Europe that had need.

I think that when the Marines put their boots in some place, they would prefer to have the warthog over their head intsead of the AV-8.
I'm wrong?


User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11446 posts, RR: 76
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 14201 times:
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Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 1):
Another aircraft in the category of the A-10. Low 5's on attractiveness, high 9's on effectiveness.

The problem with the OV-10s in Iraq back in 1991 was that they were fairly easy targets for MANPADS and the squadron commander of the Marine Reserve OV-10 sqn from NAS Atlanta even got shot down. They are useful when they are able to fly at low levels outside of useful machine gun range, but they can't fly above missile range, nor can they outrun a Strela or anything else.

They are tough airplanes and if used correctly they are excellent spotting/patrol airplanes as long as we're willing to take casualties. We're really not willing to do that. The only reason they were armed during Vietnam was that the Destroyers got worn out and there was not yet a real attack helo until the Snake came online.

An armed OV-10 is better than an unarmed 0V-10, but not much better than anything else available. UAV's can do the spotting job better for less casualties and they can also carry weapons for precision attacks. If we're going to bring back old airplanes for ground attack, let's bring back the Scooters and really do some damage....4 20mm cannon plus the bomb load....speed and maneuverability. They're sitting in the desert waiting to be cannibalized or scrapped...but they work. THey'd be perfect for this job.

Quoting Papoose (Reply 8):
I think that when the Marines put their boots in some place, they would prefer to have the warthog over their head intsead of the AV-8.
I'm wrong?

Probably, but it's a moot point since it's not designed to operate off of carriers. The AV-8B+ is capable of amphibious operations and is the right tool for that mission. Joint operability allows the Marines to have USAF air on call when available and needed.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineBoeing Nut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 14192 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):
Another aircraft in the category of the A-10.

Well, not exactly. The OV-10 is a great airplane, but it certinetly is not in the same category as the A/OA-10.

I was referring to the OV-10 and A-10's "beauty".  slaphappy 


User currently offlineSpacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 14173 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):
An exposed flight crew.

That's exactly what I was getting at...

Quoting DL021 (Reply 9):
let's bring back the Scooters and really do some damage....4 20mm cannon plus the bomb load....speed and maneuverability

A-4s only had 2 20mm cannon internally. Did they carry a supplemental cannon pod?

I like that idea better than the OV-10, maybe we can borrow a few from Argentina!


Is the MANPAD threat in Iraq really so great today? One would think if it were, there would be a lot fewer helis US, coalition and contractor) operating there.



The last of the famous international playboys
User currently offlineFBU 4EVER! From Norway, joined Jan 2001, 998 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 14168 times:

OV-10's were great planes when invented,even during their early operational carreer.They were overtaken by armed helos and almost everything else,unfortunately. Nowadays,they make excellent warbirds in civilian hands,though
Remember building a HAWK 1/48 scale kit in the late sixties.Great kit,great memories!



"Luck and superstition wins all the time"!
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4781 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 14133 times:

Quoting FBU 4EVER! (Reply 12):
Nowadays,they make excellent warbirds in civilian hands,though

They are still proving their worth in my country's south against the Abu Sayyaf. Admittedly, they are all the PAF could afford (military aid), as even A.net does not have the Philippine Air Force on its list when you do a photo search.  Sad They list Papua New Guinea though, but no photos.


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"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineTedTAce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 14019 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 5):
Quoting TedTAce (Reply 3):
I love the OV-10, however besides weapons payload, what exactly does the OV-10 bring to the table that a Predator or two can't?

Fly low, decend itself, carrry a small cargo load, and I am pretty sure the weapons load is heavier.

thanks for the mis-quote; I think you meant:

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 4):
I love the OV-10, however besides weapons payload, what exactly does the OV-10 bring to the table that a Predator or two can't?

And I agree; why send a man in to do what a machine can do better?


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12128 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 13990 times:

What would be even more effective for the Marines would be a version of the USAF RQ-1A/B Predator carrying either 2 20mm cannons, or 1 30mm cannon (from the A-10), instead of Hellfires. Isn't the USAF now flight testing the RQ-9A Preditor II that is a larger version of the RQ-1 that carries some 4X the RQ-1's payload?

User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 18
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 13986 times:

The OV-10 can carry small strike force in back, could be handy at times.

The tendency to use machines for everything is part of the problem the US armed forces have today, they've become TOO reliant on technology.
In a low intensity conflict it's often better to have a man on the ground with eyes and ears than an eye in the sky.



I wish I were flying
User currently offlineMigFan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 13978 times:

Bring the OV-10 back!!! That would be great.

The A-10 will never be flown by a US Army pilot, just as an AH-64 will never see USAF service. Military politics.

The idea of a turboprop, WWII-style FAC aircraft is not totally new. They tried...


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/M


User currently offlineLimaNiner From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 400 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 13901 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 15):
Predator carrying either 2 20mm cannons, or 1 30mm cannon (from the A-10), instead of Hellfires

The GAU-8 weighs 1,830kg, but the RQ-9/MQ-9 has a payload of about 1,700kg. I imagine that the sensor package takes up a good chunk of that payload, so even if it were possible to shave a couple hundred kgs in weight off the GAU-8, it'd be a really tight fit at best...

Also, the GAU-8 has some serious kick! Its recoil force is 9,000 lb. I seem to remember reading somewhere once that the recoil is so strong that a prolonged burst of fire can actually slow down an A-10! (I don't have a quote for that, though, so it could be 100% bogus -- sorry.)

I don't know how well the RQ-9/MQ-9's frame could deal with such a strong kick -- it kinda seems like you'd be giving a .454 Casull to a 2-year-old kid to fire...

I'd sure love to see video of a GAU-8-armed MQ-9, though!  Smile


User currently offlineDeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 13837 times:

Quoting DL021 (Reply 9):
If we're going to bring back old airplanes for ground attack, let's bring back the Scooters and really do some damage

I'm with you....John McCain would be proud to see the day.

DeltaGuy


User currently offlineShyFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 13828 times:

Quoting LimaNiner (Reply 18):
I seem to remember reading somewhere once that the recoil is so strong that a prolonged burst of fire can actually slow down an A-10!

I've heard this as well. In addition, the amount of heat generated during firing would melt the gun if it were not limited to short bursts.


User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4781 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 13578 times:

Quoting MigFan (Reply 17):
The idea of a turboprop, WWII-style FAC aircraft is not totally new. They tried...

And it looks like they're trying again...and hard!

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...+aircraft+quietly+makes+first.html



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11446 posts, RR: 76
Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 13524 times:
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Quoting Jwenting (Reply 16):
The OV-10 can carry small strike force in back

The ability of the OV-10 to carry personnel is very limited to say the least. Two OV-10s can carry a 6 man LRS team on a jump, but it's not in any way convenient or safe. The pilot is the jumpmaster, and unless that guy really knows what he's doing as regards parachuting it can suck.

As far as taking troops in by airlanding it's pointless, because there are other more practical aircraft for that purpose.

The stated purpose of oil pipeline surveillance is probably a useful one for the OV-10, as long as they travel in pairs and conduct armed overwatch for each other.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineTedTAce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 13445 times:

Quoting LimaNiner (Reply 18):
I seem to remember reading somewhere once that the recoil is so strong that a prolonged burst of fire can actually slow down an A-10! (I don't have a quote for that, though, so it could be 100% bogus -- sorry.)

I have heard this too, namely an issue when flying @ MCA. I recall stories of gun firing induced stalls. I also heard of gun exhaust flame outs.. Which lead to the fixed inboard slats.


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12128 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 13296 times:

Wouldn't the former USAF/USN A-1Es make more sense? They carried a hell of a lot more ordanace than former USAF/USMC two OV-10A/Ds could.

25 Post contains images Mandala499 : OV10s? My fav COIN aircraft! In my opinion, it'll do a good COIN mission as good as if not better than the predator. A-1s was another mean machine...
26 ATCT : Yea if you could revamp the Mohawk that would be sweet. I love the bug-eyed beast. Id like to see the bronco back too though. ATCT
27 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : As the A-67 is still in development and someways off, wouldn't potential customers be also better served by Embraer's Super Tucano? http://www.flightg
28 Post contains images 2H4 : Details, details...... 2H4
29 Post contains images Mandala499 : Now that's not a Skyraider *fake deny!* One hell of a machine eh? And a Turbine-Contrarotating prop? I last heard about this 10 years ago in a book so
30 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : There was the single-seat, Kamov Ka-50 'Hokum' attack helicopter with co-axial, contra-rotating rotors which eliminated the need for a tail rotor. Ho
31 RAPCON : Why don't you ask the crew that got shot down back in Desert Storm--an action which mightily expedited the retirement of these obsolete airplanes.
32 Luisde8cd : Two OV-10s, flown by rebel pilots during a coup d' etat in Venezuela in 1992, were shot down by AAA from a military fort in Caracas. The OV-10s were b
33 Mandala499 : Devilfish, I was referring to the Skyraider with contra-rotating props... Not just any single seater with contra rotating props... Hokum does look mea
34 Post contains links N911ME : That's not a Skyraider with contra-rotating props - it's the A2D Skyshark.....began as a turboprop version of the SPAD, but a different airplane. http
35 DL021 : LTC (now Col ret) Acree could tell you a thing or two about their modern battlefield survivability. SAM took away their lease on life.
36 Post contains images DEVILFISH : Check the links in Replies 21 and 27.
37 RAPCON : Excatly my point. The OV-10 belongs in only two places: (1) Third World AF with minimal SAM threat, or (2) A museum. That's it!
38 Post contains images DEVILFISH : You forgot one - the boneyard.
39 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : Sukhoi came up with a further bizarre interpretation of that idea..... http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...or+counter-terrorism+missions.html Quot
40 Post contains links DEVILFISH : An update on this. It seems US Aircraft of Ohio has not given up after the false start, and has now engaged Brazil's Geometra to work on an aircraft
41 Post contains links DEVILFISH : In a new development, Hawker Beechcraft AT-6s are being pushed for this mission..... http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...may-prosper-in-iraq-draw-d
42 Par13del : Experts can correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think we are overlooking the real problem and looking at the symptons. In Desert Storm I we had a Mari
43 Post contains links KevinSmith : Here is info on the one that is at the USAF Museum. http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=614
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