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Philippines To Seek Attack Helicopters (FI)  
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 14934 times:

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...icopters+to+tackle+insurgents.html

Quote:
Manila eyes secondhand AH-1 Cobras to head internal counter-insurgency efforts
Refurbished attack and transport helicopters are among the Philippines' top procurement priorities for the period to 2010, as part of a 20 billion peso ($400 million) military budget set aside to overcome insurgency in the country's troubled southern islands.
Approved by president Gloria Macapagal Arroyo earlier this month, the budget could help pay for up to 12 attack helicopters - possibly ex-US Marine Corps Bell AH-1 Cobras - and an unspecified number of transport helicopters, say government sources.
The country's armed forces also hope to acquire new communications, intelligence and infantry equipment using the funds...
Replacements for the air force's Northrop F-5 fighters, which were decommissioned late last year due to their age and high maintenance costs, are unlikely to be sourced until after 2012.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4680 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 14914 times:

For that price, they'll get more, and better, Russian helicopters.


Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 14910 times:

Quoting A342 (Reply 1):
For that price, they'll get more, and better, Russian helicopters.

The USD $400 million is the entire budget; not just for the helos.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4781 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 14876 times:

I just hope that the Philippines can maintain and grow it's economy and have enough for the people so this 18-year, P210B (roughly US$4B) doesn't go the way of the many modernisation plans before it. And as it would likely be a government to government transaction, there would presumably be less chances of "shenanigans" happening (I may be too jaded, but I never underestimate the resourcefulness of "get-rich-quick" types.)

But one thing I want to see addressed first is the dire need for effective maritime patrol, as this means a lot in helping the economy by protecting the country's exclusive economic zone, which is wantonly violated by others. New MarPat platforms would also go a long way in helping the fight against insurgency and terrorism.

I was just looking at the single and twin engine variants of the AH-1 Cobra after I'd replied to the OV-10 thread and thought those would be ideal partners to the latter in COIN operations, perhaps with some Cessna 337s thrown in for spotting duties. One concern, however, is that the PAF do not get overly fatigued, worn-out Vietnam vets, but hopefully SLEPped, refurbished and re-engined samples.

As to the F-5s - symphatizing with the families of our young, talented pilots dying not in combat but senselessly due to the "flying coffins" (as those came to be known) moved me to write (rather presumptuously) to the President just before her first state visit here (and immediately after another F-5 crashed) to consider acquiring the embargoed F-16 A/Bs at AMARC that were passed-up by New Zealand and Poland. Unexpectedly, I received a reply from the PAF G-4 (officer in charge of procurement) that while replacements are being studied, the country had other much urgent priorities that must be attended to.

But these would be welcome additions.....

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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Gerhard Plomitzer




"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineCTR From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 14871 times:

Quoting A342 (Reply 1):
For that price, they'll get more, and better, Russian helicopters

Specifically which small to medium size Russian attack helos are you recommending?

For reliability, maintainability, product support and operating cost it is hard to beat a Bell Cobra.

Have fun,

CTR



Aircraft design is just one big compromise,,,
User currently offlineSpacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2902 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 14851 times:

Espescially if they are aquired under MAP, which I would suspect the US would provide willingly like the AH-1s to Pakistan. It's all for the GWOT, right?


The last of the famous international playboys
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4680 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 14800 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 2):
The USD $400 million is the entire budget; not just for the helos.

Still, I believe for the price of a refurbished Cobra, you can get a new, and more capable, Russian attack helicopter.

Quoting CTR (Reply 4):
Specifically which small to medium size Russian attack helos are you recommending?

Who says they want small to medium size attack helos ? BTW, the Cobra isn't small at all. The single-engine versions are just less powerful than the newest versions. Is there a notable size difference compared to a Mi-35 ? If yes, what does it matter ?



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineCTR From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 14768 times:

Quoting A342 (Reply 6):
Who says they want small to medium size attack helos ? BTW, the Cobra isn't small at all. The single-engine versions are just less powerful than the newest versions. Is there a notable size difference compared to a Mi-35 ? If yes, what does it matter ?

MIL-35 Hind
Weight Empty: 8200 kg
Max T/O: 12000 kg

AH-1F
Weight Empty: 4634 kg
Max T/O: 6690 kg

Do you consider almost twice the size notable?

Does it matter? Yes, it's the difference between an axe and a knife. Do you want to annihilate a target on an open battle field, or do you plan a surgical strike in an urban environment.

With larger size also comes higher operating costs and larger IR target.

Have fun,

CTR



Aircraft design is just one big compromise,,,
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4680 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 14731 times:

Quoting CTR (Reply 7):

You said size, not weight.

BTW, not the aircraft size is important, but the weapons. Even from the "super-axe" B52 you can operate high-precision strikes on small targets.

I also doubt the aircraft would be fighting in an urban environment, but rather in forests.

Your statement about the IR target size isn't important. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there is no real heat suppression system on the Cobra, while the Hind can be equipped with the well-known cooling turbines.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineCTR From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 14705 times:

A342,

When referring to classes of aircraft, fixed wing or helo, empty weight and payload are the primary factors typically used. More than any other dimension they define an aircrafts capability and operating costs. Lighter aircraft carry less, but they are also more maneuverable and have lower operating costs. Higher weight aircraft burn more fuel which creates a larger IR signature to mask. And yes, various IR suppression systems are available for the AH-1.

The Cobra was designed and honed under fire to support ground troops is South East Asia. The Hind was designed to fight a war in Europe that never happend and was adapted with limited success to fight guerrillas in the Middle East.

The Philippines will most likely use attack helicopters to fight insurgents in their country. This will require surprise surgical strikes with direct visual confirmation of targets. The Israelis have found the Cobra ideal for this mission.

That said I believe the Tiger or Rooivalk may also be a fine option (although more expensive). But I believe you are off target with the Hind.

Have fun,

CTR



Aircraft design is just one big compromise,,,
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4781 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 14711 times:

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 5):
Espescially if they are aquired under MAP, which I would suspect the US would provide willingly

I would imagine with the Philippines' new status as a (major?) non-NATO ally, that the MAP is the main driving force behind this planned acquisition. Nevertheless, it would still be a loan that would have to be repaid and would affect the country's balance of payments. For a very poor nation, such transaction should ensure that fair, full and most advantageous value of only those things genuinely needed are availed of and paid for.

Quoting CTR (Reply 4):
Specifically which small to medium size Russian attack helos are you recommending?
For reliability, maintainability, product support and operating cost it is hard to beat a Bell Cobra.



Quoting A342 (Reply 6):

Still, I believe for the price of a refurbished Cobra, you can get a new, and more capable, Russian attack helicopter.



Quoting A342 (Reply 6):

Who says they want small to medium size attack helos ?

The areas of operations would mainly be in remote forested mountains and on multiple small islands and surrounding waters where deployment of larger and heavier rotorcraft could be problematic. It was not specified if the helos sought were Tangos, Whiskeys or other earlier variants.

Quoting CTR (Reply 7):
With larger size also comes higher operating costs

Which the PAF could hardly afford and must judiciously avoid.

Quoting A342 (Reply 8):
BTW, not the aircraft size is important, but the weapons. Even from the "super-axe" B52 you can operate high-precision strikes on small targets.

Why use a hammer to crack a nut? The Cobra is specially suited for CAS in limited-size engagements and hot pursuit in dense jungle environments. I would not even suggest the Super or King (if the machines come from the USMC, they might be) although night ops capability is highly desirable (PNVS and Kaiser HUD come to mind.) It's a guerilla war being fought, and the biggest probable threat are MANPADs. The selection of GAU-28/A, XM129 grenade launcher, M197, TOW and Hellfire is more than adequate. Besides, the unavoidable loss of a/c in battle would weigh heavily on the service's resources.

Quoting A342 (Reply 8):
but I think there is no real heat suppression system on the Cobra, while the Hind can be equipped with the well-known cooling turbines.

I believe exhaust deflectors on the AH-1G and extra scoops over auxiliary intakes and RWR on the AH-1S addressed that.

It is not sure what and how many transport helicopters were sought, but to have some basis for comparison, the Indian Air Force just signed a $660M deal for 80 new Mi-17 Hip transport helicopters.

To put things in perspective, this allocation could have been enough to buy 40% of the 28 (say 12) embargoed F-16s in 2002 or 50 Mi-17 Hips using the above figure. I hope the program gives the Philippine Armed Forces an equivalent capability and not more of this.....

Quoting Lumberton (Thread starter):
decommissioned late last year due to their age and high maintenance costs



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4781 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 14670 times:

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 10):
and RWR

Was trying desperately to edit this but PC was loading too slowly as kid had other things going. Though it might come in handy just in case.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4781 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 14573 times:

Found this older, though more realistic and detailed account of the PAF's requirements.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...ines+puts+off+fighter+contest.html

Quote:

"Bell Helicopter�s AH-1Z SuperCobra and Boeing�s AH-64D Apache Longbow have already been ruled out from the 1.3 billion peso ($24 million) contest, with the service instead evaluating used AH-1s and Russian helicopters. The air force intends to release a tender for the requirement as soon as its 2006 budget is finalised. The service is also finalising a requirement for new utility helicopters capable of transporting 15 troops and lifting an external load of 1,130kg (2,500lb).

An evaluation of potential aircraft � which will also be equipped for search and rescue, firefighting and medical evacuation duties � should be launched later this year, with a first batch of aircraft to be bought in 2007 for delivery in 2008-9. The aircraft will initially supplement the air force�s fleet of Bell UH-1H Hueys, which will expand from 43 to around 80 aircraft over the next year through the addition of ex-US Army airframes.

A major exception is for maritime patrol aircraft, with the service having shortlisted the Bombardier Dash 8 and Lockheed Martin P-3 Orion for an initial three-aircraft requirement to be met late in its current six-year plan. A further three aircraft will be acquired from 2012."


Given that these will likely be funded through the MAP, the odds against Russian equipment are high - not to mention the Philippine military's natural wariness of dealing with their adversaries' erstwhile ideological brethren. I was expecting the PAF to go with more, smaller C212-400s Patrulleros or PZL M28 Bryza R1 at $ 3.5-5.0 M each (new) for the MP role, due to the dispersed archipelagic nature of the mission. I was thinking that the Dash 8 and P-3 would be too big and sophisticated for their needs (unless substantially dumbed-down samples would be provided) and expensive to maintain and operate. But I guess the question of the Spratlys also came into the equation, and as long as the country would be more capably and efficiently served, I have no complaints. In any case, MAP makes this a moot point, though I also thought about Embraer's Super Tucano for COIN operations.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © José Ricardo



For the other items, I think a British company still builds the Simba APC at Subic (although I won't rule out ex-US Army types.) And in addition to troop gear, the communications stations at Mt. Sta Rita (taken over by a commercial operator), San Miguel and Poro Point could definitely benefit from upgrades. The only thing that remains unsure at this point is whether the US$400M funding would really be forthcoming as stated in the later report.

[Edited 2006-10-27 22:28:25]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineRAPCON From Puerto Rico, joined Jul 2006, 671 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 14547 times:

Quoting A342 (Reply 1):
For that price, they'll get more, and better, Russian helicopters.

Russian helos that can't last more than 1 month in the Phillipine environment/weather. Stick to the proven Cobra--it's more than enough to take care of the PAF's requirements, and the US will just give them away for practically peanuts.



MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4680 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 14513 times:

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 13):
Russian helos that can't last more than 1 month in the Phillipine environment/weather.

EXECUSE ME ? Russian helos are very robust, and they are used quite successfully in a similar environment, Sri Lanka.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineRAPCON From Puerto Rico, joined Jul 2006, 671 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 14507 times:

Quoting A342 (Reply 14):
EXECUSE ME ? Russian helos are very robust, and they are used quite successfully in a similar environment, Sri Lanka.

I love the "robustness" of the fabric-covered tails of the Hinds.



MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4680 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week ago) and read 14484 times:

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 15):
love the "robustness" of the fabric-covered tails of the Hinds.

Where do you have this info from ? And even if this was true, what would be wrong with it ? There are some freaking robust aircraft out there with fabric-covered parts. One of them is the An-2, one of the most sturdy planes ever.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlinePapoose From Italy, joined Sep 2006, 28 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 14413 times:

Quoting A342 (Reply 14):
EXECUSE ME ? Russian helos are very robust, and they are used quite successfully in a similar environment, Sri Lanka.

Ok they are robust but what about serviceability? Sri Lanka is such a really big comparison as Viet-Nam, Irak (ask the marines if they prefer to have their Cobras or the Apache) and Somalia? In proportion I have felt much less killings of the AH-1 in those bigger theatries.

Quoting A342 (Reply 8):
You said size, not weight.

BTW, not the aircraft size is important, but the weapons. Even from the "super-axe" B52 you can operate high-precision strikes on small targets.

Your statement about the IR target size isn't important. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there is no real heat suppression system on the Cobra, while the Hind can be equipped with the well-known cooling turbines.

How many Hinds fell from Stingers or RPG in Afghanistan? Not to mention Chechnya because lack of information but I can imagine.....
In order which reason has happened if not for their size and IR-emissions.

And what about the weapons the Hinds have to carries? Better to have US proven even if not much advanced ones, like Tow, Tow-2 missiles or rokets that the Philippine Army already has.

Last thing; the Phils can be sure to ever have on site US support for the maintenance and the ammunition supply. Philippines are an US strategic area of interest, not Russians.


User currently offlineRAPCON From Puerto Rico, joined Jul 2006, 671 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 14389 times:

Quoting A342 (Reply 16):
Where do you have this info from ? And even if this was true, what would be wrong with it ?

The horizontal stabilizer is covered in fabric. Checked it out myself one day at Polk. Fabric rots in the hot/humid weather--such as that in the PI.

Hinds were designed to operate in cold/dry/low alt environment. Afghanistan proved that they were not good at altitude. In the PI, with its very hot, humid, and mountainous environment (very similar to Vietnam) the Hind will not operate as efficiently as an AH-1.



MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4781 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 14384 times:

Quoting A342 (Reply 14):
Russian helos are very robust,

The main problem with these (apart from those already mentioned) is they do not come with the sort of financing package associated with the MAP.

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 18):
the Hind will not operate as efficiently as an AH-1.

Incidentally, I just read a snippet in the Nov 2006 Air International which says the USMC will be getting seven new AH-1Zs for $137M (in addition to UH-1s) instead of remanufactured ones. I doubt the PAF is after twin-engine Zulus, but could parts and engines from the rejected airframes be interchangeable with the single-engine Army variants?



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineRAPCON From Puerto Rico, joined Jul 2006, 671 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 14376 times:

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 19):
the USMC will be getting seven new AH-1Zs for $137M (in addition to UH-1s) instead of remanufactured ones.

They're getting new ones because the cost of a remanufacture was almost as much as that of a brand new airframe.



MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4781 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (7 years 8 months 4 weeks ago) and read 14259 times:

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 20):
They're getting new ones because the cost of a remanufacture was almost as much as that of a brand new airframe.

Exactly my concern with the AH-1s to be refurbished if the $24M allocation in the January report would be adhered to - repair and maintenance costs rising and eating up the funding for the other items.

Quoting Papoose (Reply 17):

Last thing; the Phils can be sure to ever have on site US support for the maintenance

This would be a very expensive and unaffordable proposition given the current official exchange rate of around $1.00 to P50.00. There is a pool of well-qualified local technicians and mechanics familiar with Bell's powerplants who could keep the aircraft in good shape provided spare parts are readily available. The Cobra's avionics and combat systems could be another matter though, and might require a tech rep from time to time.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 12):
fleet of Bell UH-1H Hueys, which will expand from 43 to around 80 aircraft over the next year through the addition of ex-US Army airframes.

The Nov 2006 Air Forces Monthly reports that another five of these were delivered in September.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineRAPCON From Puerto Rico, joined Jul 2006, 671 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 14247 times:

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 21):

Exactly my concern with the AH-1s to be refurbished if the $24M allocation in the January report would be adhered to - repair and maintenance costs rising and eating up the funding for the other items.

Wow! Apples an orange alert!

I don't think that the PAF is looking for anything even close to AH-1W capabilities, nor does it have a requirement. Low-hour ex-Army AH-1's, with a nice overhaul, will do just nice and will flow in nicely with the PAF's long experience with the UH-1 fleet.



MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4781 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 14239 times:

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 22):
Wow! Apples an orange alert!
I don't think that the PAF is looking for anything even close to AH-1W capabilities, nor does it have a requirement.

Neither did I suggest that.....

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 10):
I would not even suggest the Super or King



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 19):
I doubt the PAF is after twin-engine Zulus

The difficulty is in finding these in worthwhile condition for refurbishment.....

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 22):
Low-hour ex-Army AH-1's

Although for maritime patrol, I think they could also still use new, smaller albeit less capable PZL M-28 Bryza 1R or CASA C212-400MP Patrullero in a supporting role - for less acquisition and operation costs.....

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ramon Berk - BerkAviation
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Javier F. Bobadilla - Iberian Spotters

But something like these might also work.....

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Matthew C. Lyons
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Gary Shephard


[Edited 2006-11-07 00:55:03]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineRAPCON From Puerto Rico, joined Jul 2006, 671 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 14181 times:

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 23):
CASA C212-400MP Patrullero

Me thinks that the Nurtanio 212 has the sales/building rights for the PI's.



MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
25 DEVILFISH : IPTN (renamed from LIPNUR) may indeed hold the commercial rights for CASA aircraft in the Far East, but they do not seem to be very active now as the
26 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : Came across a deadringer in CivAv which might see production - that with some adaptation and US avionics and sensor suite (may be expensive) in addit
27 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : A new candidate for COIN and counter terrorism surfaces..... http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...or+counter-terrorism+missions.html View Large Vie
28 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : I totally missed news of this..... View Large View MediumPhoto © M Radzi Desa Gotta be rare. Imagine, a Volga-Dnepr An-124 Rusian delivering an e
29 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : The first batch of helos were delivered..... http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...copters-for-the-philippines-03366/ http://www.defenseindustrydaily
30 Wvsuperhornet : I think the Phillipines made the right choice the Cobra's are perfect for the terrain they will be fighting in, they were originally designed for the
31 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : The designed-for-combat AH-1 indeed is a potent weapon compared to militarized civilian helos, but I have a feeling Bell is asking a lot to refurbish
32 Wvsuperhornet : Those are nice light attack helicopters I am sure it still doesnt change my opinion that the Cobra is your best choice for what you will need it for.
33 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : The project suffers a blow due to alleged irregularities..... http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...tigate-mg530f-helicopter-deal.html Quote: "Allega
34 L-188 : Yes there is, including the infamous "Toilet Bowl" But I want to know where you come up with this "Cooling Turbine" on the Hind.....That thing has th
35 Post contains links and images A342 : Have a look at these pics: In the first photo, you can see said cooling turbines. They mix the hot exhaust gas with the cooler ambient air. In the se
36 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : What isn't easy for the perennially broke PAF was the price being asked for the old AH-1s which could buy brand-new, albeit less capable ones. It was
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