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Mi-24 Vs. AH-64  
User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 17544 times:

In one of the threads, people started comparing the Apache and the Hind, so I decided to start this thread so we can all discuss it here.


AH-64A/D Apache/Apache Longbow

Day and night, medium ground attack helicopter.

- Length (with rotors):

17.76m (approx. 58ft)

- Main rotor type:

4 blades

- Main rotor area:

168.11 sq m

- Engines:

2 T700-GE-701

- Max power output for each:

1695 hp

- MTOW:

9225 kg (approx 20500 lb.)

- Max speed:

365 km/h

- Max cruise speed:

296 km/h

- Ceiling:

6400m (approx 21000ft) 3290m with only one engine (approx 10500)

- Range:

480km without ext. fuel tanks

- Weapons:

- up to 16 AGM-114A/K/L Hellfire laser/radar guided missiles
- up to 76 70mm unguided rockets
- up to 4 FIM-92A Stinger short range, IR guided AA missiles
- M230 30mm cannon. 625 rpm. 1200 rounds.
- up to 4 external fuel tanks

- Grew:

2, gunner/systems operator in front seat, pilot in the back


Mi-24 Hind

Ground attack and transport helicopter. Based on Mi-8. Limited night capability.

- Length:

18.8 m (approx 62ft.)

- Main rotor type:

Single, 5 blades

- Main rotor area:

235 sq m

- Engines:

2 Klimov TV3-117

- Max power output for each:

2200 hp

- MTOW:

11500kg (approx 25000lb)

- Max speed:

330 km/h

- Max cruise speed:

270 km/h

- Ceiling:

5000m (approx 16400ft.)

- Range:

500 km without external fuel tanks

- Weapons:

- up to 12 Shturm radio-command guided missiles
- various unguided rockets
- various short range AA missiles
- various cannons on different models, calibers varying from 12.7mm to 30mm

- Crew:

2-3


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29699 posts, RR: 59
Reply 1, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 17449 times:

According to an Article I read in Air&Space. The engines and the transmission on the Hind have a 6 minute hover limit before they have to be taken off for inspection.

Also most of the lift inflgiht comes from the wing not the rotor system. So with a full weapons load it has to constantly keep flying forward.

An Apache can hover with it's weapon load. That makes for a more stable and therefore more accurate platform.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineMiG-29-Sniper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 17442 times:

Ah-64 was made against Mi-24. and it is more powerfull than Mi-24. so the use of this topic is rather questionable.

User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 17428 times:

MiG-29-Sniper:

Absolutely! But I wasn't the one that brought the idea up, I just posted it! Didn't you see the post that said the Mi-24 is better than the AH-64?  Laugh out loud

LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineMiG-29-Sniper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 17428 times:

no but i see VS in there

User currently offlineSouthernCRJ From Argentina, joined Sep 2001, 180 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 17429 times:


Hi LY744,

I think that we should compare the AH-64 with the Mi-28 or the KA-50/52, not with the Mi-24 (wich is designed more as an assault, than as an attack helicopter).


User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 17419 times:

SouthernCRJ/MiG-29-Sniper:

I know that guys, again, this thread goes to show just that.

LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineWarlord From Netherlands, joined Jun 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 17413 times:

LY744
this was my statement
Mi-24 is better than apache[ah-64 can not fire while on move ,and hind is much cheaper
I meat better for Macedonia because of this three things:
-it's mich cheaper to buy or maintain
-we could use it as a transport for 8 soldiers so we don't have to buy another heli
-apache can not fir while in move that's very big problem for mountanious country as mkd apache will be easy day target .
Also there was no many night combat so having expensive attack heli is worthless.
Alexander



User currently offlineWarlord From Netherlands, joined Jun 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 17406 times:

LY744
I could use some help at rah-66 vs ka-52 thread i'm in a crossfire
Alexander


User currently offlineBattleborgcube From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 17405 times:

LY744
Don't you read what was said for APACHE?
It can not fire while on move .
That's is so big minus for APACHE that i think it shouldn't replace the cobra in noplace.
So this your numbers doesn't mean a shit in a mountanious terrain .Apache is good for desert but in the mountains no way.
And this comparation is kind of silly you should compare apache with cobra ,or havoc but don't you even think about ka-52 because
APACHE CAN NOT FIRE WHILE ON MOVE
GOT IT
Cube


User currently offlineMiG-29-Sniper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 17406 times:

where the hell did you all got that crap that it cant fire on move??? what the hell is the use of it then? fly and cause heart attack to your enemies??? what the fuck - i dont think your information is correct. give me a site where i can read that will ya, please.
Dee


User currently offlineBattleborgcube From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 17404 times:

warlord
Your friend will not help you because he and you doesn't know a shit about helis exept some numbers from a tables.
Did you know that 2 apaches crushed in albania because of..i can say bad weather ?
Real reason was probably a bad or mountanius terrain.
Or do you know what kind og ammo could penetrate apache armour?
9mm ,9 fucken mm
Or that a f-4 was shot down by mi-24?
So LY744 keep your ass out of rah-66 vs ka-52 thread.
That's an advice.
Cube


User currently offlineMiG-29-Sniper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 17395 times:

gee man, how old are you? 14? - swearing more than i do! take it easy. as one wise man said, it was me, "the truth is only one". so who is mistaken sooner or later will realise that...

User currently offlineBattleborgcube From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 17396 times:

gee man, how old are you? 14?
That's none of your concerns.
swearing more than i do! take it easy
In my part of san diego that's normal way of talking
guess where i line?
"the truth is only one". so who is mistaken sooner or later will realise that...
I didn't find it wise you skould listen what EMINEM ,Dr.Dre & LL COOL J SAY ABOUT THIS
CUBE




User currently offlineMiG-29-Sniper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 17392 times:

i dont listen to others and dont tell me what to do. i know what i know, and i say what i say. but somehow i wish i had a little "talk" with you one on one now. i think 2 minutes would rotate your behavior 180 degrees after one.

User currently offlineSjc>sfo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 17390 times:

The Apache can most definetly fire while on the move. Its not simply a mobile weapons platform. If it couldn't fire while on the move, that would eliminate the entire purpose of having a 2-person (pilot/weapons technician) crew.

And "not many night combat" warlord?
Throw me a fucking bone here, of course there are night strikes. The Apache is not a close air support platform, it is an ATTACK platform. Having night capability is an amazingly great advantage in any situation.

In any case, the Apache was not really designed as a countermeasure to the Hind. It was designed because Western Military planners knew they didn't stand a chance against Soviet armored columns simply by the numbers. The apache gave them the ability to have a stand off weapon that could destroy up to 16 Russian heavies per mission, without ever even getting inside range of the Tanks air defense measures.


User currently offlineBattleborgcube From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 17388 times:

I would like to have that lind of conversation but on equestion before that:
Do you good at judo, box ,karate or that kind of stuff?


User currently offlineBattleborgcube From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 17390 times:

The Apache can most definetly fire while on the move
Don't be silly.
Show me a one video with apackhe firing on move?
Cube


User currently offlineSjc>sfo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 17384 times:

Battleborgcube, while I look for that video, you explain to me why they would have a two person crew, if the pilot couldnt just let the plane sit there while he fired off the guns.

User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 17389 times:

Judging from the info supplied by L-188 (which sounds very reliable), the Mi-24 has to be able to fire on the move because it cannot hover!

As for the AH-64, the statement "it cannot fire on the move" is deffinetely wrong. If you said "it cannot fire Hellfire missiles on the move", it would have sounded reasonable. Off course it can fire on the move! Unguided rockets and the cannon fire whenever the gunner/pilot feel like it. Would it hit the target? Well I bet it would have less chances to, but quite likely, yeah.

Not being able to fire while on the move is not as a big deal as you (overzealous Russian aviation fans) try to make it to be. You people contradict yourselves. First you say the AH-64 is not effective in mountainous areas, then you say it cannot fire on the move. The AH-64 is likely to "hide" behind trees, hills, etc. Then, it gets above the obstacle (hovering), and shoots its missiles, firing on the move is not even very useful for it!

Battleborgcube:

Keep your mouth shut, and don't tell me what to reply to. Apparently you have absolutely no understanding of the modern battle environment. Stick to Star Trek or whatever. You haven't said a thing except "Apache cannot fire on the move", and demonstrated no apparent signs of you even knowing what that means for an attack helicopter.

Warlord:

I haven't checked the forum out in a couple of hours, sorry!


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29699 posts, RR: 59
Reply 20, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 17375 times:

I'll have to look and see if I still have that back issue of that magazine.

BTW. The Apache can fire on the move. But that being said. Most tactics call for the helicopter to hide behind something big, hill, mountain, trees and have a OH-58D do the targeting. When the target is illuminated by the OH-58 the Apache quickly pops up, sights the illuminated target, gets it's shot off and ducks down behind the hill, tree or mountain again.

An OH-58 is a much smaller and less expensive target then the AH-64.

BTW. Back in the day when I was in the Army I was assigned to a Brigade Headquarters with 3 Apache Squadrons/Battalions assigned to it.

I may have picked up a couple of things.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29699 posts, RR: 59
Reply 21, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 17371 times:

LY744.

Keep in mind to that the primary armaments for the Hind would have been those four 57MM rocket pods. Can't remember how many shots that they had on those pods. But the russians used them on many many different platforms.

Got to hand it to the Soviets they really like their rockets.

If memory serves those 4 anti-tank missles where wire guided. And would have been steered to the target by the guy in the front seat.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineYKA From Netherlands, joined Sep 2001, 766 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 17371 times:

My Enyclopedia of Modern Warplanes, classifys both the Apache and Hind in the same category....Close Support and Counter-Insuregency. However the Apache is better suited for the attack role thanks to its advanced avionics/targeting system and hellfire missles.

I think we should compare the Apache to a more capable rival, the Mi-28 Havok. With its IR suppression exhaust, IR decoys, titanium armour and optronic sighting and targeting system which also controls the undernose 30mm cannon as in the Apache. This chopper can also carry AAM for self defence against other helicopters. I think its a very promissing design and may be the perfect choice for nations that cannot afford the apache.

It also looks pretty cool, check it out..







User currently offlineMiG-29-Sniper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 17383 times:

i'd put it a bit diferently. Ah-64 is better than Mi-24. but Mi-28N is better than Ah-64... and it is, trust me on that one. i have a movie where Mi-28 perform a loop in air. up till Ka-50 only a/cs could do something like that. then Ka-50 was the firs to make it with the help of its prop construction, blahblahblah... and Mi-28 was the first, i think, heli with such prop construction to do the same thing, and on reletivly low altitudes!!! it wasnot high at all when it did it! (and that was quite amasing seeing such a huge and heavy heli doing what planes do so easily and lightly. )

((dont mind this one the rest of you guys) - but you karrate kid - i wish you were that tough over here... and just make your qureosity go away, i'm good enough in Russian fist fight and marshal arts)


User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (12 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 17359 times:

The Mi-24 can carry up to 128 unguided rockets (4 containers of 32, also can use containers of 20).

LY744.




Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
25 MiG-29-Sniper : and about Ah-64, somebody said that firing on move aint that important. i disagree. you said, Alex was it?, that it can hide nicely in trees and stuff
26 L-188 : MiG-29-Sniper. I think that you are refering to my comment about tactics. Which I did not say that firing on the move was not important. As far as fly
27 L-188 : Oh no. I see where that fire on the move comment came from Warlord, not me. That information is incorrect.
28 LY744 : I did say that not being able to fire on the move is not as big of a disadvantage as people are making it to be. D, if you want something that can fir
29 L-188 : I wouldn't think it would be that serious of a problem. firing those wire guided missles. I agree with you about the overemphasis on fire-on- the move
30 MiG-29-Sniper : well, i just touched on that since everybody was so thrilled about it. but about guaded rockets. on Mi-35 they are installed and i dont see any proble
31 Battleborgcube : Battleborgcube, while I look for that video, you explain to me why they would have a two person crew, if the pilot couldnt just let the plane sit ther
32 MiG-29-Sniper : Bottlekid-> Every flight near the ground is very hard that's not hollywood.Do you know why do they make ka-52 ? Because it was too hard to fly a singl
33 MiG-29-Sniper : there you go guys! enjoy >http://www.brazd.ru/stat/sravnenie_mi28_ah64.phtml
34 Battleborgcube : Because it was too hard to fly a single seater in the strikes extremely hard. -> no it's not. BS why are the all new kelicopters twinseaters ,rah-66,h
35 MiG-29-Sniper : BS why are the all new kelicopters twinseaters ,rah-66,hokum ,ka-52 why don't they make another single seaterMulti-role all-weather combat Ka-52 "Alli
36 Battleborgcube : Se my re at comanche whity it come from the russian source Cube
37 YKA : There a cool new game just came out called "Ka-52 Team Aligator"...im downloading the demo now.
38 MiG-29-Sniper : yeah, that's the one i flew on!!! it's really good! ну что будем пар
39 Post contains images MiG-29-Sniper : ...that sim is used as a training tool wired to the cabin of a real heli and screened before you. i passed all the rtaining missions!!! so i'm pretty
40 SJC>SFO : Are Israeli AH-64s armed with AA missiles on the ends of their errr wings (?)
41 LY744 : Those AA missiles are FIM-92A Stingers. And, no, IAF AH-64s are not equipped with them. No IAF helicopter carries AA missiles. Their pilots do however
42 SJC>SFO : Funny. I seem to remember seeing photos of AH-64s armed with sidewinders.
43 L-188 : There have been a number of different weapons proposed for the Apache, Stingers, Mica's, Python, Sidewinder, just to name a few. Some have been test f
44 MiG-29-Sniper : Ah-64 does have the ability to cary Stingers.
45 LY744 : We all know that it has the ability to carry FIM-92's, but does anyone actually uses that ability? I know the IAF sure doesn't. LY744.
46 MiG-29-Sniper : well, there isnt a global war going on anywhere with some very advanced countries where each heli would cary AA misales. so if there is the ability, t
47 Wasilenko : I just want to comment on the good old days of Russian/Soviet aviation. Mi-24 became the world's first helicopter to shot down a fighter jet (probably
48 LY744 : Wasilenko: An Iraqi Mi-24 shot down an Iranian F-4 Phantom in the 80's (during the Iraq-Iran war). That was the first time a helicopter shot down a fi
49 MiG-29-Sniper : oh MY GOD!!! man, Mi-8 can carry AA misales! (at least modifications can) it's over 20 years old, naturaly i dont mean the first model ever flown. and
50 Post contains images LY744 : The current world record is 400-soomething km/h, set by some British helicopter (I'll post more info when I'll be on my own computer). Give me a link
51 LY744 : Sniper: The current world speed record for helicopters is 400.87 km/h (15-25km), set by a Westland Super Lynx, in 1986 (reg. G-LYNX). Wasilenko: On Oc
52 Wasilenko : How can a helcopter shot down a fighter jet with unguided rockets? Was that F-4 taking off or landing, F-4 minimum speed is probably Mi-24s maximum? Y
53 LY744 : The F-4 was flying directly towards the Mi-24, apparently at low altitude. And I do mean unguided AG rockets. I don't know what is so hard to believe
54 MiG-29-Sniper : vse chesnoe slovo poslidniy post! PTUR - Protivo-Tankovaja UPROVLJAEMAJA Raketa!!! PTUR - anti-tank guided misale.
55 LY744 : Not so fast! Where is the Mi-8-can-carry-AA-missiles link??? LY744.
56 Post contains links and images Warlord : Two things for you from my couisin : Ka-58 "Black Ghost" - just a toy. Cool looking 1:72 plastic modelling kit by "Zvezda". Please note, all the featu
57 L-188 : Nato really liked using words that started with the letter "H" for it's helicopter designations. Hind, Hip, Havoc....ect. The Werewolf name was probab
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