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Rumsfeld's Departure May Mean More F-22 - F-18E/F  
User currently offlineMCIGuy From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1936 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4902 times:

...and less F-35's:

AD&D Story

Quote:
The key change, they say, will be the Air Force's attempt "and probable success" in securing more stealthy F-22 Raptors beyond the 181 ceiling set by Rumsfeld's Pentagon.



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18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4840 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 4559 times:

F-22's are great, the more the better!
Just imagine how if Rumsfeld and Bush hadn't messed up Iraq so much (to the tune of US$2.2trillion) that would have bought all the F-22's ever planned, plus more B-2's, all the F-35's, more C-17s etc etc



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineOzair From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 867 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4538 times:

This bodes well for seeing the F-22 with a kangaroo on the side! Any increased buy will also increase the possibility that we will be able to tack an order on to production similar to the C-17. This buy would also force a delay with the JSF, something the RAAF can ill afford as well as raise the price of the JSF and lower the price of the F-22.

Now we just need to convince Congress to place the F-22 on the FMS list!


User currently offlineMCIGuy From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1936 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4509 times:

Quoting Ozair (Reply 2):
Now we just need to convince Congress to place the F-22 on the FMS list!

Yeah, it was on it but was taken off several months later. A little schizophrneic if you ask me. The potential customer at the time was Japan.
I think it'll all change though. I see 1000 or more Raptors being built before the line shuts down forever, including FMS.  Wink



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User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4840 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4418 times:

Well the more that are built, the cheaper each one becomes... double the current order and you can just about halve the current price per frame. The F-22 will still probably be too expensive for Australia... the only way I can see that happening is the USA letting Australia buy them at cost (makes a few more frames on the line to keep it going, gets a lot of goodwill with Australia, helps Australia to interoperate with the USA).


56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineCloudy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4380 times:

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 1):
F-22's are great, the more the better!
Just imagine how if Rumsfeld and Bush hadn't messed up Iraq so much (to the tune of US$2.2trillion) that would have bought all the F-22's ever planned, plus more B-2's, all the F-35's, more C-17s etc etc

The vast bulk of Iraq war funding comes from supplemental appropriations, not out of the normal defense budget. Without Iraq, the deficit would simply be lower. More likely, there would be more bridges to nowhere and other pork projects.

Whatever the pundits say, I doubt that the politicians will let the line shut down before a replacement is close at hand (the F-35 does not count). They will find some way to keep it open, if only to keep the money flowing to their voters and campaign contributors. As for the F-35 costing a third as much as the Raptor, I believe that is comparing apples to oranges. We KNOW the cost of a Raptor. It is in operational service. We DON'T KNOW the cost of an F-35 yet. The given figures for the F-35 are estimates that don't account for the innevitable overuns. I doubt we will be able to buy 3 F-35's for the price of a raptor. 1 1/2 F35 per Raptor would be a more likely figure.


User currently offlineOzair From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 867 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4319 times:

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 4):
The F-22 will still probably be too expensive for Australia...

The unit cost will not be that far apart, we are in line for F-35s at the top of the price curve whereas we could purchase F-22s at close to the bottom. I certainly would be happy to settle for 50-60 F-22s over the planned hundred JSF. Costs could also be saved by reducing the F-18 life extension and move the F-111 retirement forward a year.

Still as I have said previously it will really depend on the next Australian election. This will determine whether the next government, and who at this time can really tell which it will be, is prepared to make the Major monetary commitment that is required for either purchase.


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12158 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 4170 times:

Quoting Ozair (Reply 6):
The unit cost will not be that far apart, we are in line for F-35s at the top of the price curve whereas we could purchase F-22s at close to the bottom. I certainly would be happy to settle for 50-60 F-22s over the planned hundred JSF. Costs could also be saved by reducing the F-18 life extension and move the F-111 retirement forward a year.

So, wouldn't the proposed FB-22 be better suited as an F-111 replacement?


User currently offlineOzair From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 867 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4097 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 7):
So, wouldn't the proposed FB-22 be better suited as an F-111 replacement?

Indeed, but the RAAF is looking for a single aircraft to replace both the F-111 and the F-18. The FB-22 could not be expected in service before 2018 (if it is even built?), too far away as a credible F-111 replacement.

The only two choices for this in reality are the F-35 and the F-22. The RAAF wants to make the generational jump to this 5th gen aircraft series and with our inter-operation with the US increasing there are no other options.

Perhaps in 2020 with China and India at the door something like this would be considered but only if the F-22 were bought instead of the F-35.


User currently offlineJutes85 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4062 times:

When do we get your leftovers?

User currently offlineMCIGuy From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1936 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4013 times:

Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 9):
When do we get your leftovers?

Canada is a direct participant in the F-35, or were you talking about the Raptor? I don't see any issues with Canada getting Raptors when they're put back on the FMS list.



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User currently offlineDeltaGator From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 6341 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4002 times:

Quoting MCIGuy (Thread starter):
Rumsfeld's Departure May Mean More F-22

Good. More work for my neighbors down here in Marietta. The F-22 has been doing a fair amount of flights around Marietta recently and they are so quiet compared to the F/A-18s that go screaming over my house.



"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12158 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3993 times:

Potential countries that can order the F/FB-22 are:

Australia
Japan
Isreal
Canada

Countries that might want it, but probibly won't order the F/FB-22 are:

England
Spain
Italy
South Korea
Singapore


User currently offlineLegs From Australia, joined Jun 2006, 240 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 11 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3992 times:

Quoting Ozair (Reply 8):
single aircraft to replace both the F-111 and the F-18

If the RAAF did go to an all F/FB-22 frontline fleet, would the possibility exist that the RAAF would hesitate to risk a significant part of what would be a relatively small fleet by sending Raptors to a combat zone? Although they would have an almighty deterrent capability.

I'd like to see a mix of -22's and -35's, reduce the JSF buy to around 55-60, and supplement them with a smaller force of 15-20 Raptors, and since im dreaming, lets throw in a few more precious tankers into the mix as well!


User currently offlineOzair From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 867 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (7 years 11 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3912 times:

Quoting Legs (Reply 13):
If the RAAF did go to an all F/FB-22 frontline fleet, would the possibility exist that the RAAF would hesitate to risk a significant part of what would be a relatively small fleet by sending Raptors to a combat zone? Although they would have an almighty deterrent capability.

One of the great regrets of the Hawke administration was not sending F-111s to the 1st Gulf War. We rectified this with the F-18 squadron to the 2nd Gulf War. This as with any conceivable future operation the RAAF conducts with fighter aircraft would be linked to US action. Seems to me that fighter aircraft and SAS troops will be the forces of choice for future Australian deployments (outside the Pacific).

We are moving ever closer to interchangeable equipment with the US armed forces. The recent M1A1 purchase and established training area in northern Australia points to this with US forces able to come in country and train using the same equipment. I think the fighter purchase should be a simple extension of this. Why not combine our initial training with US units as well, to the point where we are interchangeable with US crews in either the F-22 or F-35. This is what I would like to see, whether or not it will happen is another thing.

Quoting Legs (Reply 13):
I'd like to see a mix of -22's and -35's, reduce the JSF buy to around 55-60, and supplement them with a smaller force of 15-20 Raptors, and since im dreaming, lets throw in a few more precious tankers into the mix as well!

The only attraction an F-35 buy has for me is the ability to operate off our future amphibious assault ships and then only if we purchase a sub-fleet of B models at that. There are few benefits (perhaps greater numbers of aircraft is the only one I can see) to operating a two aircraft force when one of the aircraft can do the job of both flying faster, further and stealthier at a not significant higher initial cost!

But I have again hijacked a thread about the F-22 for my own selfish RAAF desires, apologies.


User currently offlineMCIGuy From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1936 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 11 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3882 times:

Quoting Ozair (Reply 14):
But I have again hijacked a thread about the F-22 for my own selfish RAAF desires, apologies.

No problem. Any FMS of the Raptor further increases the chances the USAF will get more, so it's relevant.  Smile



Airliners.net Moderator Team
User currently offlineChecksixx From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1108 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 11 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3826 times:

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 11):
Good. More work for my neighbors down here in Marietta. The F-22 has been doing a fair amount of flights around Marietta recently and they are so quiet compared to the F/A-18s that go screaming over my house.

They must be in idle because Raptors are very loud.

-Check


User currently offlineMCIGuy From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1936 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 11 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3778 times:

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 16):
They must be in idle because Raptors are very loud.

My thoughts exactly. I rate the Raptor second only to the B-1B for noise level.  Wink



Airliners.net Moderator Team
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12158 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (7 years 11 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3725 times:

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 17):
Quoting Checksixx (Reply 16):
They must be in idle because Raptors are very loud.

My thoughts exactly. I rate the Raptor second only to the B-1B for noise level.

Yes, they are. I saw three F-22As launch out of Carswell, opps I mean NAS Fort Worth JRB last week. They were a lot louder than the local F/A-18C/Ds and F-16C/Ds based there (and even the C-40As there, LOL).


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