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Indons To Buy 8 Su-30MKs & 4 Mi-35 Helos  
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4936 posts, RR: 1
Posted (7 years 12 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 14301 times:

Flightglobal reports that Indonesia is about to sign a contract for the purchase of eight Su-30MK jet fighters and four Mil Mi-35 attack helicopters from Russia. The report also mentions that the deal will also include five transport helicopters and two submarines(?).

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...+new+fighters+and+helicopters.html

This after spares were allowed for their existing F-16A/Bs, while a further order of F-16s was not considered, due to sanction concerns. The fighters and helos are understandable, even expected. But the submarines are a big surprise - is Indonesia aiming for a very strong Navy?


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineStealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5724 posts, RR: 44
Reply 1, posted (7 years 12 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 14231 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Now there is a good reason why Australia needs some F-22, P-8 and some more Collins SSK.


If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6955 posts, RR: 76
Reply 2, posted (7 years 12 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 14146 times:

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 1):
Now there is a good reason why Australia needs some F-22, P-8 and some more Collins SSK.

Our focus isn't downunder... Even after the purchases are done, our forces won't be able to match you guys in an offensive anyways.

The Kilo class is definitely needed. Movements of our little fleet is very easily traced by illegal shippers/transitters etc. There was talk about setting up the Kilo base in Sorong Papua, which is an ideal place. Its main mission will be smuggler interdiction, which mainly use the guise of a low speed vessel. Our 207/209s have low endurance for the eastern half of Indo and they are mainly effective in the shallows. The east is deep, and require endurance.

We expect an upgrade in the inter-service data communications too... which currently does not go down to the field level very well.

The Mi35 for the army is needed for armed air mobility of the army, and again, its for internal counter insurgency use. Given our geography, it's of little use for an offensive due to distances involved.

Our Sukhoi fleet is a bit of a joke at the moment. OpsCap of these 4 frames are severely limited due to budget constraints. And then the logistics involved in moving these around the country is another nightmare as the airbases in the west is designed to cater for western equipment, and our resources are limited. I expect to see the additional Sukhois to remain in the east where the infrastructure is bare, so, we won't waste any money in catering for both Western and Russian equipment. The major problem remains in the operational philosophies too... the western fleet uses the "autonomous" style while the russian aircraft still depends on the GCI concept.

The Sukhois will largely be used for interception of illegal flights (illegal flights in the east is not limited to slow and small aircraft) and ADIZ CAPs.

So, for the moment, there's little the Aussies to worry about from our military...

Personally, I'd rather have the money be used to purchase more logistics support and transport.

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4936 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 14022 times:

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 2):
And then the logistics involved in moving these around the country is another nightmare as the airbases in the west is designed to cater for western equipment, and our resources are limited. I expect to see the additional Sukhois to remain in the east where the infrastructure is bare, so, we won't waste any money in catering for both Western and Russian equipment. The major problem remains in the operational philosophies too... the western fleet uses the "autonomous" style while the russian aircraft still depends on the GCI concept.

The Sukhois will largely be used for interception of illegal flights (illegal flights in the east is not limited to slow and small aircraft) and ADIZ CAPs.

Might the above be the inspiration behind Aero Vodochody's intensified efforts to sell excess Czech L159A/Bs to the Tentara Nasional Indonesia - Angkatan Udara?

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...forts++to+sell+Jakarta+L-159s.html

This despite the proven BAe Hawks in TNI-AU service, and Penta's (Aero's new owner's) doubts about future contracts.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...asts+doubt+on+L-159+contracts.html

Those could be used in conjunction with the UAVs being acquired.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4936 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 13520 times:

Update:

The TNI-NU has ordered more Sukhois.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...ir-force-adds-more-flankers-03691/

Quote:
"This year, the top military contract came on opening day, when Rosoboronexport State Corporation and the Republic of Indonesia signed a $300 million contract for 3 SU-27SKM and 3 SU-30MK2 fighters."

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...images/AIR_Su-27SK_Climbing_lg.jpg

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http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...7H8AAAEAADosc30AAAAB&modele=jdc_34

Quote:
"On 21 August, 2007, the opening day of the 8th International Aviation and Space Salon MAKS 2007 the Rosoboronexport State Corporation and the Republic of Indonesia have signed a protocol on the delivery of 3 Su-27 SKM and 3 Su-30MK2 fighters."


Meanwhile, Aero Vodochody has flown the third L-159T1 converted trainer also on offer to Indonesia.....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...7H8AAAEAADosc30AAAAB&modele=jdc_34

Quote:
"On August 28, 2007 at 12:36 (local time), the third out of a total of four L-159T1 advanced training aircraft (s/n 6071) produced for the Czech Air Force took off for the first time."

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http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-l-159t1-trainer-makes-flight.html



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineF27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 13491 times:

but how can they maintain a proper QRA with only 8 jets?

User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4936 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 13482 times:

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 5):
but how can they maintain a proper QRA with only 8 jets?

They still have the Hawks, and some F-16A/Bs in operational condition by sourcing spare parts from third parties. But if those dry up, they might be forced to cannibalise the rest to keep the best ones flying. Besides, there's not much external threat around them other than these.....

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 2):
The Sukhois will largely be used for interception of illegal flights (illegal flights in the east is not limited to slow and small aircraft) and ADIZ CAPs.

Funds permitting, the situation could be addressed by exploring possibilities left in this.....

Quote:
"the lifting of the US embargo in November 2005."

.....or taking up future options in the Sukhoi contract, if any.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineF27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 13476 times:

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 6):
They still have the Hawks,

a Hawk is too slow to do decent QRA, even of passenger aircraft. Also, operating both the F-16 and the SUs at the same time is problematic as Mandala499 pointed out.

Don't forget Indonesia is HUGE. In another thread we were discussing that Austria would have a hard time doing QRA with 12 Typhoons and Austria is I don't know how many times smaller.


User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4936 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 13460 times:

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 7):
a Hawk is too slow to do decent QRA, even of passenger aircraft. Also, operating both the F-16 and the SUs at the same time is problematic as Mandala499 pointed out.

He also mentioned "slow and small" aircraft. As to mixed operation, he said he expected one type to be assigned in the east and the other in the west. They just would've to make do with what they have as best they can, for the time being.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineOzair From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 877 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 13397 times:

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 4):
The TNI-NU has ordered more Sukhois.....

These aren't additional, just the actual order after months of negotiation. What is interesting is they have ordered the updated versions of both these aircraft, so they will now also have a subfleet within their existing SU-27 and SU-30 fleets.

This is almost as crazy as Malaysian acquisitions.  Yeah sure

The silly thing is they don't currently have any Russian AA missiles to equip the aircraft so the internal cannon is the only armament it will carry.


User currently offlineMD90fan From Bahamas, joined Jul 2005, 2931 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 13391 times:

Quoting Ozair (Reply 9):
This is almost as crazy as Malaysian acquisitions.

What's crazy about the Su-30MKM purchase? They have 8x F-18s from the mid-90s, but IIRC, they want to enlarge the fleet. And the MiG-29Ns have been offered for sale (Bangladesh was interested, lol)

Indonesia is slowly modernizing, they just got some corvettes from Germany, getitng F-16MLUs, C-130MLUs, BrahMos AsHms, BMP-3s, Kilo subs and new LPDs from South Korea.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q93/ambalat/Sigma%20corvettes/diponegoro21.jpg

TNI F-16A




TNI Su-30KI and Su-27SK





http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
User currently offlineOzair From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 877 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 13356 times:

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 10):
What's crazy about the Su-30MKM purchase?

Its not just their aircraft purchases, Malaysia buys five of this, ten of that in a very disjointed way. They lose commonality with their purchases and end up training smaller units of both crew and techs, suffering operational availability because of it.

There isn't an Air Force in the world that can maintain such divergent equipment to the standard required for combat ops. Even the US is reducing their type fleet of aircraft, the JSF for the Air Force and the F-18 for the Navy are perfect examples of type commonality within their respective fleets that bring massive cost savings as well as having a huge pool of parts and trained technicians to draw from.

You can't run a military the way Malaysia does in the 21st century!

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 10):
They have 8x F-18s from the mid-90s, but IIRC, they want to enlarge the fleet

But I ask why? The F-18s are D models used for strike missions and the plans are to replace the Ds with F model super hornets. What does a SU-30MKM do? It is a dedicated strike aircraft very much in the same vein as a Super hornet. Why introduce a second aircraft that will do exactly the same mission as a current aircraft being procured especially in the small numbers Malaysia will buy? It won't be commonality as the Super has almost nothing in common with a legacy hornet except the weapons it carries.

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 10):
Indonesia is slowly modernizing, they just got some corvettes from Germany, getitng F-16MLUs, C-130MLUs, BrahMos AsHms, BMP-3s, Kilo subs and new LPDs from South Korea.

I would be surprised if even half of these purchases went through within the next ten years. There is always lots of talk but very little action.


User currently offlineWvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 517 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 13352 times:

Quoting Ozair (Reply 11):



Quoting Ozair (Reply 11):
But I ask why? The F-18s are D models used for strike missions and the plans are to replace the Ds with F model super hornets. What does a SU-30MKM do? It is a dedicated strike aircraft very much in the same vein as a Super hornet. Why introduce a second aircraft that will do exactly the same mission as a current aircraft being procured especially in the small numbers Malaysia will buy? It won't be commonality as the Super has almost nothing in common with a legacy hornet except the weapons it carries.

I think Malaysia did it to keep peace with both the US and Russia the Superhornet and the SU-30MKM would preform roughly the same mission except the SU-30 have a longer range although its way more diffcult to work on and fly. But its was done basically so they can keep both options open.

The gentleman from Indonesia is right I doubt they purchased anything in looking to attack Australia they would be foolish to even try the Australian navy is way more powerfull that the Indonesian Navy and 8 aircraft is no reason to start screaming that your need to buy a $250 million dollar aircraft when they are not availible for export anyway. That and if anyone attacked australia they would also have to deal with the US you wouldnt be going it alone anyway.

[Edited 2007-08-31 13:48:52]

User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 13330 times:

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 12):
SU-30 have a longer range although its way more diffcult to work on and fly

Really?  Yeah sure


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6955 posts, RR: 76
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 13268 times:

I think those L159s would be a better choice than the SU27s & 30s for our Air Force! LOL! The airforce can't afford its budget to go into the Sukhoi's fuel supplies.

The west is covered by the Hawks, Java is covered by the F5s and F16s. The East is the big gap we got, and is only covered by 4 Sukhois at the moment. L159s for the eastern half of the country would be nice. Last time we had a "border incident" with Malaysia on the eastern half of Borneo, we took out all our Hawks in Pontianak and base them in Balikpapan... Stoopid!

Ozair, the Russian AAMs are covered under a separate deal I am told. Our Sukhois were even delivered without the cannons!

MD90fan,
6 operational F16s ain't a fleet. Neither is the current 4 SUs. The C130MLUs overdue, but honestly, all we need are just spare parts for the 130s. There are lots of silent opposition to the Sukhoi purchase, but the politicians are playing the "we can't risk another embargo" card...

The flightglobal article says it right... our priority is to get the spares for aircraft that suffered the US Embargo. We need to replace our OV10 Broncos soon too, another one just crashed last month... we're down to 5 I think... so we ain't got much of a COIN platform to rely on. The KO-1 is the likely winner to replace the OV10, and is likely that the deal will be a barter with us selling CN235 transports to ROKAF.

Quote:
The gentleman from Indonesia is right I doubt they purchased anything in looking to attack Australia they would be foolish to even try the Australian navy is way more powerfull that the Indonesian Navy and 8 aircraft is no reason to start screaming that your need to buy a $250 million dollar aircraft when they are not availible for export anyway. That and if anyone attacked australia they would also have to deal with the US you wouldnt be going it alone anyway.

Australian defence policy should always look beyond Indonesia, otherwise, it won't be half the size it is today!

Now if we buy 100 used Mig29s and used Su27s, and 100 medium military transports and another hundred helicopters, then Australia can be worried...

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4936 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 13233 times:

Quoting Ozair (Reply 9):
so they will now also have a subfleet within their existing SU-27 and SU-30 fleets.

It's likely they would arrange for those to be updated to a common configuration with this delivery.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 9):
This is almost as crazy as Malaysian acquisitions.

Buying a few frames at a time could actually be a practical way of standing up a fleet when short of resources - considering they have no immediate major threats, and still don't have enough pilots trained for transition, as well as mx personnel and GSE. Of course, you won't have the bargaining power associated with a bigger purchase.

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 14):
L159s for the eastern half of the country would be nice.

And they could likely be had cheap, as the Czechs are eager to dispose of those. The TNI-AU would just have to be very careful in selecting which frames to buy. The single ITEC 124 engine may not be powerful, but should be adequate for recce patrols and going after smugglers, drugs and arms runners.

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 14):
so we ain't got much of a COIN platform to rely on.

Also, being originally intended for light combat duty, the L-159 could supplement the KO-1 in the COIN role, while also fulfilling the lead-in fighter training function. And the air force might be familiar with Aero Vodochody, having used the Delfin in the past.

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 14):
The KO-1 is the likely winner to replace the OV10, and is likely that the deal will be a barter with us selling CN235 transports to ROKAF.


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This is a positive development, and a good model for the sort of cooperation that would enable friendly air forces to build-up and upgrade their fleets with less financial burden.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineOzair From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 877 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 13181 times:

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 14):
Ozair, the Russian AAMs are covered under a separate deal I am told. Our Sukhois were even delivered without the cannons!

Thanks for the info Mandala499.

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 14):
Australian defence policy should always look beyond Indonesia, otherwise, it won't be half the size it is today!

Now if we buy 100 used Mig29s and used Su27s, and 100 medium military transports and another hundred helicopters, then Australia can be worried...

Islamic fundamentalism within Indonesia is far more of a worry to Australia than any military buildup that Indonesia could make.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 15):
It's likely they would arrange for those to be updated to a common configuration with this delivery.

I would say that's very doubt-full actually. It is not mentioned anywhere in the order (it would be mentioned as much of the business the Russian Aviation Industry now deals with upgrades).

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 15):
Buying a few frames at a time could actually be a practical way of standing up a fleet when short of resources -

As stated in reply 11 this is not a reason for their piecemeal purchases.


User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4936 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 13163 times:

Quoting Ozair (Reply 16):

I would say that's very doubt-full actually. It is not mentioned anywhere in the order (it would be mentioned as much of the business the Russian Aviation Industry now deals with upgrades).

It could be that they want to retain those four primarily in the air superiority/interceptor role, maybe add a few more when they could afford to. And follow the same strategy with this latest batch.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 16):
As stated in reply 11 this is not a reason for their piecemeal purchases.

Where exactly in Reply 11 is the Indonesian reason for their purchase stated?

[Edited 2007-09-03 05:31:09]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineWvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 517 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 13080 times:

Quoting LY744 (Reply 13):
Really?

Yes there range is a bit longer (not enough to make much of a difference with inflight refueling) and there were several western pilots that flew the flankers after the collapes of the soviet union and all stated while it was a very good aircraft it was also a very un-forgiving aircraft to operate and to work on.


User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 13066 times:

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 18):
and there were several western pilots that flew the flankers after the collapes of the soviet union and all stated while it was a very good aircraft it was also a very un-forgiving aircraft to operate

You put an F-16 pilot in an F-15 for a half hour stint and he'll have his problems too. But anybody who's flown an F-4 (or a TF-30 powered F-14) and ends up taking a ride in a Flanker, will be worshiping the ground the late Pavel Sukhoi used to walk on.


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4936 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 13041 times:

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 18):

Yes there range is a bit longer

If the blurb is to be believed, this one promises better range.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ng-su-35-1-multi-role-fighter.html

Quote:
"The Su-35-1 can carry over 2t more fuel than the Su-27 and has a ferry range of 4.500km (2,430nm) with external fuel tanks."

Quoting LY744 (Reply 19):
But anybody who's flown an F-4 (or a TF-30 powered F-14) and ends up taking a ride in a Flanker, will be worshiping the ground the late Pavel Sukhoi used to walk on.

I wonder if they'd be as moved after a spin in the above?  scratchchin 



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineOzair From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 877 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 13023 times:

Quoting Ozair (Reply 16):
As stated in reply 11 this is not a reason for their piecemeal purchases.

Your question was asked regarding the Malaysian purchasing which I felt your answer did not account for, not the Indonesian acquisition.


User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4936 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 13015 times:

Quoting Ozair (Reply 21):
Quoting Ozair (Reply 16):
As stated in reply 11 this is not a reason for their piecemeal purchases.

Your question was asked regarding the Malaysian purchasing which I felt your answer did not account for, not the Indonesian acquisition.

It was me referring to the Indonesian buy. MD90fan was the one asking about the Malaysians.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineWvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 517 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 12999 times:

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 20):
If the blurb is to be believed, this one promises better range.....

Only one problem No one Including the Russian Airforce has purchased the SU-35 yet.

Quoting LY744 (Reply 19):
You put an F-16 pilot in an F-15 for a half hour stint and he'll have his problems too. But anybody who's flown an F-4 (or a TF-30 powered F-14) and ends up taking a ride in a Flanker, will be worshiping the ground the late Pavel Sukhoi used to walk on.

I doubt that talk to any F-14 Pilot and they wouldnt trade the F-14 for anything.

[Edited 2007-09-05 09:59:18]

User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4936 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 12979 times:

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 23):
Only one problem No one Including the Russian Airforce has purchased the SU-35 yet.

Thus the sales pitch at MAKS 2007.....

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"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
25 Mandala499 : That's why I think we need more transport planes, airborne assault helis, and COIN aircraft! Disaster relief, airmobility, counter terrorism airmobil
26 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : I think the IAe CN212-200s would be a shoo-in for these, in view of the "Buy Indonesian" policy promulgated..... http://www.flightglobal.com/articles
27 Post contains links DEVILFISH : The latest news on the Russian equipment deal with Indonesia..... http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...5H8AAAEAAF7FAiwAAAAC&modele=jdc_34 Quote: "'W
28 Mandala499 : Devil, Well, IAe's chances of getting the C212-400 line is getting slim, a court declared it bankrupt not so long ago thanks to a bogus lawsuit by for
29 Post contains images DEVILFISH : A pity, the Skytruck would make a rugged COIN airlifter and ground surveillance plane - while the Bryza could be a good maritime patrol aircraft.....
30 Post contains links A342 : BTW, KNAAPO, the manufacturer of the Su-35, has a great presentation of it: http://www.knaapo.ru/media/News/maks2007/su35eng.swf And here the correspo
31 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : Update: In a new twist, the recent visit of the US Defense Secretary seems to have opened a strong possibility for this..... http://www.flightglobal.c
32 Post contains links DEVILFISH : Update: The Su-27/30s are about to be delivered..... http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-new-batch-of-sukhoi-fighters.html Quote: "Indonesia is po
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