Tugger From United States, joined Apr 2006, 1889 posts, RR: 2 Posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1749 times:
Within the "VIP 747" posting an interesting point was raised that got me thinking about what will happen IF twins take over and specifically Boeing develops its Y3 as a twin. I think it deserves its own thread.
Will it ever be acceptable for the flying White House/Mobile Command Post/Air Force One to be a twin? And if not what will be done?
Perhaps the US Gov could ask Boeing to engineer a special wing for the next gen Y3 that will allow them to hang two more engines on it. Just my first thought, may be silly or unfeasible.
Other options are of course, like Marine One, go euro (let's not get too heated over this thought now. No A or B bashing cuz it'll be a Northrop Grumman or Lockheed tie up), go military - C5 (doubtful), C17, all new C, or....?
I think that the POTUS will need more than two engines and not because of reliability issues, strictly security.
Tug
(Edited to change the post title.)
[Edited 2007-01-10 02:39:14]
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FriendlySkies From United States, joined Aug 2004, 3584 posts, RR: 7 Reply 2, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1703 times:
I don't see why not...I mean, how would the public feel if the US Gov't came out and said that a 2 engine aircraft wasn't safe enough for the President to fly on, but the FAA says it's ok for anyone else to?
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DfwRevolution From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 4, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1670 times:
Quoting Tugger (Thread starter): Within the "VIP 747" posting an interesting point was raised that got me thinking about what will happen IF twins take over and specifically Boeing develops its Y3 as a twin. I think it deserves its own thread.
Will it ever be acceptable for the flying White House/Mobile Command Post/Air Force One to be a twin? And if not what will be done?
The primary Air Force One (VC-25A) developed from the 747-200 platform are actually quite new. The first President to use the 747 AF1 was George H.W. Bush. They will not require replacement anytime soon. The USAF will not replace Air Force One simply because it is a quad and airlines are ordering more and more twins.
When the time comes to replace Air Force One, I suspect they will order another 747 if Boeing is still producing them. The aircraft is simply so damn impressive compared to something like a 777 or 787.
If Boeing has discontinued 747 production, it's anyones guess.
KC135TopBoom From United States, joined Jan 2005, 7435 posts, RR: 50 Reply 5, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days ago) and read 1549 times:
Quoting C680 (Reply 1): He flys on a Gulfstream V (the U.S. Air Force calls it a C-37A - why must they rename *everything*?!?!?) when going into smaller airports.
He has also used the VC-32A (B-757-200) and the VC-40B (B-737-BBJ2). In fact, he recently used the VC-32A to fly from Vietnam to Singapore, and back (a long way over water), while the VC-25A was having some tires changed.
N328KF From United States, joined May 2004, 5580 posts, RR: 7 Reply 6, posted (2 years 10 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1540 times:
Quoting C680 (Reply 1):
He flys on a Gulfstream V (the U.S. Air Force calls it a C-37A - why must they rename *everything*?!?!?)
Uhhh, they have a lot of aircraft (and variants thereof) to keep track of and a designation system is the easiest way for them to do so. It's not as if the DoD is the only one.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
A320ajm From United Kingdom (England), joined May 2006, 391 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (2 years 10 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1509 times:
Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 4): I suspect they will order another 747 if Boeing is still producing them. The aircraft is simply so damn impressive compared to something like a 777 or 787.
I would disagree. The 777 has a better safety record and longer range capability. For the 787, we'll have to wait for when it comes into service but i can imagine the USAF opting for the 777 for the POTUS.
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N328KF From United States, joined May 2004, 5580 posts, RR: 7 Reply 9, posted (2 years 10 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1509 times:
Quoting A320ajm (Reply 8):
I would disagree. The 777 has a better safety record and longer range capability. For the 787, we'll have to wait for when it comes into service but i can imagine the USAF opting for the 777 for the POTUS.
If USAF were to acquire the hypothetical KC-777, this would be significantly more possible, as the VIP version could then be based upon the 777-300ER and have great commonality.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
KC135TopBoom From United States, joined Jan 2005, 7435 posts, RR: 50 Reply 10, posted (2 years 10 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1499 times:
Quoting N328KF (Reply 9): If USAF were to acquire the hypothetical KC-777, this would be significantly more possible, as the VIP version could then be based upon the 777-300ER and have great commonality.
I would think they would base a VIP version of the B-777 on the B-777-200LR. That would eliminate the need for air refueling for AF-1 (not that they use it a lot now). That airplane would have even more in common with a KC-777 order (should that ever happen), as both are based on the same airframe (the B-777-200LR and B-777-200F have many things in common).
Tugger From United States, joined Apr 2006, 1889 posts, RR: 2 Reply 11, posted (2 years 10 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1498 times:
I guess I never realized the variety of aircraft that the President uses. But what about the "Mobile Command Platform" concept of it? Do all the other aircraft have that? In a national emergency would he not use only the VC-25 which I understand to have defensive systems built into it and a full "war room" and communications system? Also during an emergency wouldn't the joinot chiefs and/or cabinet be on it?
Tug
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N328KF From United States, joined May 2004, 5580 posts, RR: 7 Reply 12, posted (2 years 10 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1496 times:
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10): I would think they would base a VIP version of the B-777 on the B-777-200LR. That would eliminate the need for air refueling for AF-1 (not that they use it a lot now). That airplane would have even more in common with a KC-777 order (should that ever happen), as both are based on the same airframe (the B-777-200LR and B-777-200F have many things in common).
Well, the 777-300ER would have almost as much in common with the 777F. There is very little difference between the -300ER and -200LR, primarily in the length of the fuselage, amount of tankage, and FADEC settings. Since the difference between the -200LR and the 777F are primarily interior fittings and tankage, I don't see operating even a small number of -300ERs as being a problem.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
RichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (2 years 10 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1457 times:
Quoting Tugger (Reply 11): But what about the "Mobile Command Platform" concept of it? Do all the other aircraft have that? In a national emergency would he not use only the VC-25 which I understand to have defensive systems built into it and a full "war room" and communications system? Also during an emergency wouldn't the joinot chiefs and/or cabinet be on it?
Pretty sure POTUS uses the E-4B in the event of war, its much better equipped for airborne command.
JakeOrion From United States, joined Oct 2005, 846 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (2 years 10 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1451 times:
Quoting N328KF (Reply 12): Well, the 777-300ER would have almost as much in common with the 777F. There is very little difference between the -300ER and -200LR, primarily in the length of the fuselage, amount of tankage, and FADEC settings. Since the difference between the -200LR and the 777F are primarily interior fittings and tankage, I don't see operating even a small number of -300ERs as being a problem.
Depends if the President needs the additional space the 300 has. KC135 has a point. From my point of view, it makes much more sense to go with a 200LR, and the way technology has advanced, you can fit much more equipment in the same or smaller amount of space (using the technology available on the VC-25 in 1990 as an example.)
If the President needs the space, then it would most likely be a 300LR since it would not need to carry cargo/passengers, only the necessary supplies of food, drink, etc. Additional fuel tanks would most likely be placed in some of the cargo compartments, plus, a strong possibility this aircraft would be lighter than its passenger counter-parts, enabling it to fly further distances. Reason, no cargo/passengers/luggage/etc. But, this aircraft would also have air-to-air fueling capability regardless of range/endurance on its own tanks. Reason, nuclear war. You want to be moving all the time, making yourself a very difficult target to hit. There are other reasons, but just an example.
Tugger From United States, joined Apr 2006, 1889 posts, RR: 2 Reply 16, posted (2 years 10 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1426 times:
Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 14): Pretty sure POTUS uses the E-4B in the event of war, its much better equipped for airborne command.
Thanks for that RichardPrice! Yes, I think I was confusing that with AF1. So my question probably applies to the E-4B as well. But that most defintiely could be superseded by a C-17 of something like that.
Whatever AF1 is in the future it will probably always be the biggest of all the other heads of state if possible. Of course it flew as a VC-137 for years after the 747 was around. How many HoS will begin to utilize the A380 when it comes available. I can imagine some in the middle east will, but any others?
Tug
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Moose135 From United States, joined Oct 2004, 1104 posts, RR: 12 Reply 17, posted (2 years 10 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1391 times:
Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 14): Pretty sure POTUS uses the E-4B in the event of war, its much better equipped for airborne command.
Not so much, no. The VC-25 has all the bells & whistles POTUS needs these days, which is one of the reasons they are phasing out the E-4B. In fact, the mission name was changed from National Emergency Airborne Command Post (NEACP) to National Airborne Operations Center (NAOC). Even FEMA can use if necessary as a temporary command center in the event of a natural disaster.
Tugger From United States, joined Apr 2006, 1889 posts, RR: 2 Reply 22, posted (2 years 10 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1230 times:
Quoting SlamClick (Reply 21): Ah, but the thread title specifies "Air Force" One.
I must say that when I first started this thread the title was different (and I had started it in Civ Av but it was moved). The original title was "Will the US president's plane ever be a twin?". I think a primary difference between the helo flights and AF1 is that those are inside of the controlled, defended airspace of the USofA. Correct me if I'm wrong (as I very well could be).
Quoting 2H4 (Reply 20): Why might it be different?
My original thought was that a quad might be required for redundancy over a significant period of time. Say the plane needs to stay up for over four, five, six days (who knows)? If any one or two engines fail it would still be up, a third fails it could at least get to the ground under some form of control. Again my whole thought has everything to do with redundancy and survivability of the most important people in the US under possibly extreme circumstances and has nothing to do with standard operating reliability of a twin.
Tug
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SlamClick From United States, joined Nov 2003, 9996 posts, RR: 78 Reply 24, posted (2 years 10 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1217 times:
Quoting Tugger (Reply 22): a primary difference between the helo flights and AF1 is that those are inside of the controlled, defended airspace of the USofA. Correct me if I'm wrong
Not sure but I could envision a situation where they would make a US military helicopter available to the President in other parts of the world. Bulk of the flights - White House lawn to Andrews I'll wager.
By he way. From a heat-seeking missile point of view, four engines is four targets. I'm aware that they have countermeasures but...
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Tugger From United States, joined Apr 2006, 1889 posts, RR: 2 Reply 25, posted (2 years 10 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1203 times:
Quoting SlamClick (Reply 24): Not sure but I could envision a situation where they would make a US military helicopter available to the President in other parts of the world. Bulk of the flights - White House lawn to Andrews I'll wager.
I agree, I'm sure that has happened quite a few times.
Also wasn't one of the reasons given for the VH-71 (US101, a derivative of the AgustaWestland EH101) winning the new contract for Marine One because it has three engines And not just two like the Sikorsky?
Quoting SlamClick (Reply 24): By he way. From a heat-seeking missile point of view, four engines is four targets. I'm aware that they have countermeasures but...
May be four targets but only one would be hit. Of course it would be devastating, likely destroying the wing etc. and bring the aircraft down. I have not used this as a rationale for having four engines as I think it is likely worthless, the whole idea is to avoid being hit by anything. But if something exploded nearby (say a missile destroyed by a countermeasure) and something was ingested having four engines would prove valuable.
Tug
[Edited 2007-01-12 00:46:42]
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26 N328KF: I would guess that you will see a future AF1 (if not the current one) operational with something like MTHEL -- eg., an active defense against incomin
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