Acheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 861 posts, RR: 2 Posted (3 years 1 month 15 hours ago) and read 10303 times:
Quote: The Venezuelan Air Force signalled its intention to join the small club of countries that can build their own military aircraft in early December, announcing plans already under way to build a new manufacturing facility. The new facility will initially produce trainer aircraft, but an air force statement hinted at the possibility of using the manufacturing plant to build other types of aircraft, saying the facility will provide "an infrastructure, teams and indispensable tools to manufacture airplanes in the country"
DL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11084 posts, RR: 91 Reply 1, posted (3 years 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10130 times:
Yeah...this will happen....
right after the Argentines, Chileans, and Brasilians (actually the Brasilians have been selling their airplanes and should be selling them to Venezuela) sell all those airplanes they've been building.....
There's no reason for this other than Chavez is trying to institute his version of nationalist socialism by starting a military buildup and appealling to the poor of his own country by giving them someone to blame for their troubles....
Lumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4247 posts, RR: 26 Reply 4, posted (3 years 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 10019 times:
Quoting Acheron (Reply 3): We tried, but the US Goverment told Embraer to give us the finger.
Not to downplay the animosity between the US Government and President Chavez, but how can the U.S. Government dictate to Embraer? If Embraer decides not to do business with Chavez, that's their call, right?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
Lt-AWACS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 5, posted (3 years 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 10018 times:
Depends on the components some could be US and not allowed for export to a specific country.
Hey I used to live in Venezuela (Maracaibo) and loved it though I am sad about Chavez but that is for another thread...
I don't think this will go past the trainer stage. They can market it to Cuba and some smaller regional countries. Nothing more. Buena suerte to them Chavez can't stay around for ever.
Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
Capt-AWACS, Hermano bebe, que la vida es breve
Ptrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3072 posts, RR: 22 Reply 8, posted (3 years 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 9946 times:
Of course this doesn't sound like a very fruitful idea, but can you really blame a country for trying to achieve a degree of technical independence in the maintenance of its air force? The replies from the US are so stereotypical. US combat aircraft designs sucked until 1925 or so . Should the US have continued to buy French aircraft?
Peter
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
Dougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (3 years 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 9936 times:
Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 8): Of course this doesn't sound like a very fruitful idea, but can you really blame a country for trying to achieve a degree of technical independence in the maintenance of its air force? The replies from the US are so stereotypical. US combat aircraft designs sucked until 1925 or so . Should the US have continued to buy French aircraft?
Peter
It doesn't matter what the topic, somebody's always going to bash the US and the people in it. No matter how remote the connection or absurd the premise. I bet you're Udo in disguise.
May I say that you, sir, are as stereotypical as they come? And hardly the place to be making snotty remarks about European wars. I mean, how long did y'all last and how good was your record?
Glideslope From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1337 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (3 years 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 9921 times:
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 9): It doesn't matter what the topic, somebody's always going to bash the US and the people in it. No matter how remote the connection or absurd the premise. I bet you're Udo in disguise.
They are not Udo. Man I miss that dude. He was like putting Mentos into Diet Coke.
He is still here. I have a few suspects, but I'm not ready to go public. I get my daily fill of US Bashing without him.
"He wins his battles by making no mistakes." Sun Tzu
DL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11084 posts, RR: 91 Reply 11, posted (3 years 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 9842 times:
Quoting Acheron (Reply 3): So we can't build our own planes?.
And I doubt a COIN and Advanced Trainer will be a threat to anyone
I never said Venezuela could not....what I said was they won't. It's a non-economically sound idea that the country really cannot afford. The Argentines and Chileans already build perfectly adequate airplanes that never sold well outside their own countries (or inside for that matter) and this won't sell outside either. The internal market is not for more than 20 or so airplanes, so why bother. They can always buy the Chinese airplanes. Not subject to US embargoes.
Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 8): The replies from the US are so stereotypical.
dude...stop the insanity
Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 8): US combat aircraft designs sucked until 1925 or so . Should the US have continued to buy French aircraft?
no, because the US could sustain an internal marketplace for aircraft construction with it's population and land size. Buying French aircraft when we had self sustaining aircraft concerns here made little sense. Economics.
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 9): May I say that you, sir, are as stereotypical as they come?
Someone should....
Quoting Glideslope (Reply 10): He was like putting Mentos into Diet Coke.
Wow....what an image....I'm going have to work that one out of my head...
Acheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 861 posts, RR: 2 Reply 12, posted (3 years 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 9827 times:
Quoting DL021 (Reply 11): I never said Venezuela could not....what I said was they won't. It's a non-economically sound idea that the country really cannot afford. The Argentines and Chileans already build perfectly adequate airplanes that never sold well outside their own countries (or inside for that matter) and this won't sell outside either. The internal market is not for more than 20 or so airplanes, so why bother.
I could agree with you on the 20 planes if the rest of the COIN fleet was operative, but unfortunately, it isn't. Of the OV-10s, around 4 to 8(cannot give exact number)are still operative, and after the silly veto, it became a "we'll see", even though they are going through a series of modifications like adding a FLIR under a modified nose and a gunship version with a 20mm turret where the belly hardpoints used to be, but still, they can only fly for so long.
Then we have the Tucanos, slowly getting old. We tried to buy Super Tucanos to complement them but like I mentioned, DoS told Embraer to not even bother. Same for the R-99's we tried to buy. So, we can't buy from Embraer even if we tried, same for the Argentinean planes which are marketed(and owned) by Lockheed Martin. Chile probably wouldn't sell us what they build, for fear of loosing spare parts supplies for their F-16s for violating the US embargo. The russians don't make COIN Turboprops nor Advanced Trainers.
The Czech Foreign Relations Minister told Aero Vodochody not to sell us anything, because of the embargo(though they are trying to figure out a way to strip the L-159 from all the american equipment, because they want the deal). Pzl Mielec...I'd rather not ask.
Not much of a choice, as you can see, since even the P&W PT6 had to be taken out of original design because of the embargo.
The ideas in Chile and Argentina didn't work mostly because it was more profitable for the politicians' pockets to buy foreign planesss.
I believe that the idea is go the way of the Swedish, build our own planes(and maybe export it to other Mercosul countries) and don't really depend from foreign sales, and still, we are producing a vehicle similar to the HMMVW and apparently Kuwait was interested in getting a hand on several of them, so who knows.
Also, it is a civilian proyect that requested goverment funding to go ahead, and it got it, so its not an idea of the goverment itself.
Quote: They can always buy the Chinese airplanes. Not subject to US embargoes.
We are not that desperate yet, and they don't produce turboprops either, other than Y-8/An-12 and Y-7/An-32.
It's kinda ironic, though, since the reasons for the embargo were that we weren't doing enough to fight terrorism, yet the equiment we are getting negated are mostly for COIN against the colombian guerrilla and paramilitaries and Training duties.
Quote: They can market it to Cuba and some smaller regional countries. Nothing more. Buena suerte to them Chavez can't stay around for ever.
You never know. And I think the guy is doing a decent job, but then, depends on who you ask and where you get your info.
Nice to know you lived here, though. Part of a military agregate or family?.
I'm not an America-basher, indeed, I deeply respect America in many ways.
I should have explained what I thought was stereotypical, and why I mentioned America in the first place. What I don't understand is why many Americans seem to feel so strong about Chavez' Venezuela. I can understand that his cheap anti-American rhetoric is annyoing, but that doesn't make him a threat in any way.
And of course starting an aircraft industry in the US in the 1920s made perfect sense, while doing it in Venezuela today doesn't sound like such a great idea. But the same was no doubt said when Embrear was set up as a Brazilian state company. IF things are done right, there's really no reason why a country like Venezuela couldn't have some sort of aircraft industry.
Peter
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
DEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 3191 posts, RR: 2 Reply 15, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9703 times:
Quoting Acheron (Thread starter): The Venezuelan Air Force signalled its intention to join the small club of countries that can build their own military aircraft in early December, announcing plans already under way to build a new manufacturing facility. The new facility will initially produce trainer aircraft,
That's intriguing since it's probably much simpler and cheaper to buy from their Russian buddies.
Quoting Acheron (Reply 12): The russians don't make COIN Turboprops nor Advanced Trainers.
Oh, but they do. Surprising that they neglected to offer their LIFT aircraft after selling Venezuela the Su-30s.....
As to the unwanted PZL Mielec, the maritime patrol and surveillance versions of the M-28 Bryza may be poor subtitutes for the R-99 especially without the PT-6 and Western avionics.....
.....but with the buyout by Sikorsky are now doubly unlikely to be a supplier. They have better chances with Beriev's 50I - provided a Russian alternate could be found for the Phalcon sensor suite.
Quote:
"Russia's Beriev expects to deliver the first of three customised A-50I airborne early warning (AEW) aircraft to the Indian air force in July 2007. The Indian version incorporates Israel's Phalcon active-array radar, replacing the Russian Vega radar used on previous versions. Beriev general director Victor Kobzev says the company has won a Russian air force order for a major upgrade of in-service A-50s. Beriev is also working on an all-new aircraft, Kobzev says."
All in all, the only rationale I could think of why Venezuela plan to take this more difficult path is that their Russian friends had become merchants first, and ideological brothers last.
Acheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 861 posts, RR: 2 Reply 16, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 9663 times:
Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 15): Oh, but they do. Surprising that they neglected to offer their LIFT aircraft after selling Venezuela the Su-30s.....
I meant a Turboprop Advanced Trainer. The Yak-130 is beeing studied to replace the F-5 which had to undertake improvised LIFT duties when the T-2D were retired.
Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 15): Although this looks a more promising replacement for the OV-10s.....
A bit too big for an OV-10 replacement, but would be a good budget gunship, and replacement for the Arava's, denied C-295 and dishonorable retired G222.
Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 15): All in all, the only rationale I could think of why Venezuela plan to take this more difficult path is that their Russian friends had become merchants first, and ideological brothers last.
No, this is not really based on ideology, but who is willing to transfer the most tech. Deals a la India.
Acheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 861 posts, RR: 2 Reply 19, posted (3 years 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 9391 times:
Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 18): This could also work as replacement for the Arava's.....
We have the shorter, PZL Mielec M-28 with PT6 engines version...yup...
But then, the Arava's operate with the Army so their replacement is not that urgent.
Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 18): For a good alternative to CASA's C-295 and replacement for the Alenia G222, the FAV might have to wait for this.....
The last operative G222 was lost a months ago when the left main landing gear collapsed during the take-off roll in CCS. This leaves the air force without a "medium" airlifter other than the Shorts 360, so the C-295 were urgently needed, to the point that Coaler is being considered. So not much of a time to waste.
Looks interesting, nonetheless.
Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 18): Then the Russians had been businessmen first indeed, and the deal a commercial transaction for the most part.
Yes. A deal was signed with Mi so they would install a mayor maintenance and training center in the country which would do maintenance for all the Mi choppers in LatAm, with the possibility of installing a factory in the future.
Fumanchewd From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 20, posted (3 years 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 9352 times:
Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 18): Unfortunately, most turboprop advanced trainers are of the Pilatus, Socata or American persuasion.
The PZL Orlik is pretty bad ass but then again..
Quoting Lumberton (Reply 14): Just as well, because:
Sikorsky Sets Up European Foothold with PZL Buy, Enters Fixed-Wing Business
First I've heard that. The Orlik is impressive as a 300 knot, 750shp, fully acrobatic trainer. But then again it has a PT6-25C and Hertzell prop which couldn't be imported.
Fumanchewd From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 21, posted (3 years 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 9349 times:
I did some research and found that the military versions of the Orlik previously had a Motorlet Walter M601T turboprop engine with 560kW of power but has since switched to the PT-6.
Fumanchewd From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (3 years 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 9258 times:
Quoting Acheron (Reply 22): Now that I remember, wasn't PZL part of EADS?.
After a fall of communist system in 1989, the factory was renamed with its traditional name PZL "Warszawa-Okêcie". In 2001 it was bought by Spanish EADS CASA and since then is known as EADS PZL "Warszawa-Okêcie".
On January 4th 2007 Sikorsky Aircraft Corporation, a unit of United Technologies Corp. (UTX) announced plans to purchase PZL-Mielec. Papers will be signed on January 10th, 2007.
Wait until the Chineese start laughing at the crap that rolls out of Hugo's factory.
Quoting Acheron (Reply 12): It's kinda ironic, though, since the reasons for the embargo were that we weren't doing enough to fight terrorism
Pouring gas on the fire doesn't help either.
God Save the Queen!
25 Acheron: Such a constructive post from someone inside the project, right?. Not much of a chance now, regardless of the engine, unless someone at Sikorsky want
26 TheCol: I don't think you have thought about all the resources that are needed to get this project started. Even if Hugo can come up with the initial funds, y
27 Acheron: Two colleges offer the Aeronautical Engineering career, and have been doing so for the last 30 years, so we do have the engineers. Most of them enlis
28 DEVILFISH: Ironic that the engines and avionics which probably made the Skytruck more attractive in the first place could now be the cause of its woes and why i
29 Acheron: Indeed, but as far as I know, the Skytrucks are doing fine, for now. Its cargo bin for lugage(present in the units that do most of the logistical act
30 Dougloid: The key to the success or failure of this project is going to be 1) will the aircraft be certified as a civilian model and 2) is it going to have Russ
31 CTR: If Hugo was truly serious about building an infrastructure in Venezuela capable of producing aircraft, he would be willing to take baby steps first.
32 Acheron: The only civilian model I've seen so far is a single-engine turboprop(similar to the Tucano, but with a twin tail) for civilian Flight schools. Russi
34 PPVRA: I think we went for Mil choppers to off-set our trade deficit with Russia. Trade negotiations with Russia are always on the table. Also, they are chea
35 Dougloid: Sorry, sir. That's a grant of unlimited, unregulated, and uncontrollable power to enact anything he's got a mind to do. What if Hugo decrees "Anyone
36 TheCol: Yeah, but the best and brightest of these bunch will demand competitive wages and benefits to work there. That would be difficult due to what other a
37 AerospaceFan: I wonder how long Chavez thinks he's going to be in power. As long as Castro? I don't think so. If he's still President of Venezuela ten years from no
38 DEVILFISH: Yakovlev used to talk about a Yak-152 prop trainer but it seems to have fizzled out. Iran has advanced jet trainer prototypes with butterfly tail fin
39 Acheron: Well, someone has to do the maintenance, and would be cheaper to send them across the border than put them on a ship and send them on a trip to Russi
40 DEVILFISH: The database mentions a future An-142 version with a rear freight ramp that could be the basis for an MPA. A 1996 agreement for license-assembly of a
41 Acheron: Well, now the rumours switched to Il-76 and Il-78, the latter make more sense since we only have two KC-707 and one of them its maintenance. That one
42 L-188: I think I like the designs, but they seem to be straying a bit from the "KISS" principal with the design of the wing. I would think a nice Hersey Bar
43 TheCol: That's why most people plan ahead for that, considering that there are more lucrative employers internationally. I doubt a local company like Embraer
45 Acheron: Well, the designs are bit old now, who knows if they have kept the shape of the wings. Indeed. And the rumour mill keeps spinning, now about An-140's
46 DEVILFISH: Variants of the An-140 would make sense, but Ukraine might require huge financing to develop the designs. If anything, it could be a toss-up with the
47 Acheron: As unexpected it might be, there is an An-140 at the moment in La Carlota. I didn't see that one coming... The original order was of 30 something hel
49 Acheron: Indeed, would look cool with the Army colours, though. It's the Army, not the Air Force who operates the Hinds. Probably a demo flight, yes, I'll try
50 DEVILFISH: Maybe Aero Vodochody has managed to take out the US content from this converted surplus L-159 trainer prototype?..... http://www.flightglobal.com/art
51 Acheron: Well, there is the L-59, which is the original model, with Ukranian engine and russian avionics, but I think the plane the Air Force will probably en
53 Luisde8cd: With 80% of Venezuela's population living in poverty, I think the last thing we should think about is building military systems. That money could be w
54 DEVILFISH: What will happen then with the 12 AMXs on order? http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ners-review-amx-international.html Quote: "Venezuela is the o
55 Acheron: Old, this has been dragged since 1998, and I think they should update their sources since that deal has been cancelled twice by now, after they final
56 Acheron: Well, it has been oficially announced that the Yak-130 is the new LIFT aircraft of the Air Force. Taking over the job as trainers of the VF-5, which w
57 DEVILFISH: It seems the Government and the military think otherwise..... http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...68/venezuela-in-airlift-study.html Quote: "A Ukr
58 Acheron: The An-140s are a no-go, for any branch. Only An-74(unknown numbers, some heading for the Army besides the MPA versions for the Navy) and around 10 I
59 DEVILFISH: Defense Aerospace had this piece denying Il-114 sale to Venezuela..... http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi....RV8T8MOa9dUAAFVAhVE&modele=jdc_34 Offic
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US combat aircraft designs sucked until 1925 or so 
. Should the US have continued to buy French aircraft?
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