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Report: Libya To Order Rafale  
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6169 times:

FI is reporting:
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...g+Eurofighter%2c+French+press.html

Quote:
Libya 'to order 13-18 Dassault Rafale fighter jets', rejecting Eurofighter, French press reports

Libyan leader Col Muammar al-Gaddafi has reportedly selected the Dassault Aviation Rafale fighter jet to re-equip the country's air force ahead of the Eurofighter Typhoon.

Libya is reportedly close to finalising an order for between 13 and 18 Rafales in a deal worth as much as €2.5 billion ($3.24 billion), French Sunday newspaper Le Journal du Dimanche says.

The newspaper cites industry sources and government insiders as saying Gaddafi chose the French offer over a refurbishing of and unspecified number of the country's mixed RSK MiG fleet of Mig-21s, -23 and -25s. Proposals from China and Russia were also considered, the report continues.

If true, the deal would be the first export order for the Rafale.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
54 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6485 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6122 times:

It only makes sense. They have around 120 Dassault products, ranging from Mirages to Falcons.


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6094 times:

Dassault have denied any negotiations are underway -

Quote:

PARIS (AFP) - French aerospace group Dassault Aviation denied a press report that it was negotiating the sale of Rafale fighter jets to Libya.

"To date, there is no negotiation on this matter between the Dassault company and the Libyan authorities," a company spokesman told AFP.

"This type of matter belongs to the bilateral domain between the French and Libyan governments," he added.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070114/bs_afp/francelibyaaviation

Would a government really undertake negotiations for a sale without involving the supplier?


User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6485 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6077 times:

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 2):
Would a government really undertake negotiations for a sale without involving the supplier?

Why not? The U.S. did it with Taiwan regarding diesel-electric submarines.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 4, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6019 times:
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I am a bit surprised at this, not that they would order a Dassault product...but that they are ordering new jets at all.

They'd be better served with new transport aircraft and civilian applications.

But, if they plan on these being their primary defense aircraft then they are making a good selection. The Rafale is a well put together airplane that is backed by an excellent financing package. I don't think that Saab could compete in that regard, even though their plane is less expensive.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4769 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6011 times:
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Quoting N328KF (Reply 3):
Why not? The U.S. did it with Taiwan regarding diesel-electric submarines.

strictly not quite true as there was only agreement to starting a program to meet a requirement but there was nothing concrete about the actual product which was still to be determined!


User currently offlineEBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 5957 times:

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 2):
Would a government really undertake negotiations for a sale without involving the supplier?

It would seem a good thing for the company as they can say the French government blessed the deal and the company therefore complied with the government's wishes. Libya isn't on the top ten most popular nations in the world list so the builders of the Rafale may not want to be seen as seeking business from that country.



Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently offlineMD90fan From Bahamas, joined Jul 2005, 2931 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 5898 times:

Are the Saudi's financing this?  wink 

Honestly I don't see it happening as long the French are flying Mirages for Chad against Libya.

Will these (if it happens) get the Mica IR? If not the Rafale is useless



http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
User currently offlineDeskflier From Sweden, joined Jan 2007, 537 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 5852 times:

Quoting DL021 (Reply 4):
I don't think that Saab could compete in that regard, even though their plane is less expensive.

Gripen could never compete for an order from Libya, given the large amount of US components in this system.



How can anyone not fly, when we live at a time when we can fly?
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 5824 times:

Quoting Deskflier (Reply 8):
Gripen could never compete for an order from Libya, given the large amount of US components in this system.

Is there still an embargo on weapons systems to Libya? I know Boeing is selling them commercial aircraft.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (7 years 8 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5661 times:

Dassault and the French defense ministry are now distancing themselves from this report...
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...per-reports-of-rafale-sale-to.html

Quote:
Countering the claim last week, a Dassault source said: "There are no negotiations with Libya on the Rafale." Any decision to offer the aircraft would have to be made by the French government, but defence minister Michèle Alliot-Marie has also denied the report, the source added.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 11, posted (7 years 8 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5611 times:
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Quoting Deskflier (Reply 8):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 4):
I don't think that Saab could compete in that regard, even though their plane is less expensive.

Gripen could never compete for an order from Libya, given the large amount of US components in this system.

I was under the impression that this was no longer a real issue. Is there still an arms embargo?



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (7 years 8 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5587 times:

Quoting N328KF (Reply 1):
It only makes sense. They have around 120 Dassault products, ranging from Mirages to Falcons.

These are so old that you will have problems in finding any match between them.


User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12566 posts, RR: 46
Reply 13, posted (7 years 8 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5570 times:
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Quoting Lumberton (Reply 9):
I know Boeing is selling them commercial aircraft.

What planes is Boeing selling them? They may be trying to sell them planes, but nothing has been sold yet AFAIK.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 14, posted (7 years 8 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5547 times:

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 13):
What planes is Boeing selling them?

AFAIK, none. Could be something happening behind the scenes as you suggest, but I'm not aware of any offers to Libya for combat aircraft--from Boeing, LM, or any other U.S. company.

[Edited 2007-01-20 18:11:13]


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineMD90fan From Bahamas, joined Jul 2005, 2931 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (7 years 8 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5532 times:

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 13):
What planes is Boeing selling them? They may be trying to sell them planes, but nothing has been sold yet AFAIK

Buraq Air ordered 3 Boeing 737-800s. Here a few photos of them in service.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Joe G. Walker
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Irfan Caliskan



Buraq Order

Cheers,
MD90fan  wave 



http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12566 posts, RR: 46
Reply 16, posted (7 years 8 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5529 times:
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You said:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 9):
I know Boeing is selling them commercial aircraft.

So I asked:

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 13):
What planes is Boeing selling them?

and you replied:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 14):
AFAIK, none.

I don't know about you, but I'm confused! yes 



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6485 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (7 years 8 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5524 times:

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 12):
These are so old that you will have problems in finding any match between them.

I'm not talking about commonality. I am referring to the fact that Dassault has an established relationship and foothold there.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (7 years 8 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5508 times:

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 16):
I don't know about you, but I'm confused! yes

Should have read further:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 14):
but I'm not aware of any offers to Libya for combat aircraft--from Boeing, LM, or any other U.S. company.

"combat aircraft".... It has been brought out on other threads that Libya via Burak airlines was buying 737s, but since this thread is about tactical aircraft, I thought it was understood. Apologies for the misunderstanding.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4839 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4893 times:

After the earlier denial, it seems the deal is progressing again.....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...mn8AAAEAAEOfw4sAAAAD&modele=jdc_34

Libya to buy 14 French Farale fighters: presidential source

Sorry, it's just a headline - those with subscriptions could please provide a link to the complete story. The typo notwithstanding, it's altogether more credible this time, given the Airbus orders signed at the Elysee Palace.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Malcolm J.Bezzina


It looks like the Rafale might finally have its first export customer. That is, if the government had learned its lesson and drops the stubborn insistence on package deals, and sings from the same songbook as Dassault.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineN74JW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4786 times:

The LARAF has to get something... The pics of the Mig-21s and Mig-23MLs show some tired aircraft.

User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4776 times:

This is being reported as an order on the French Wikipedia Dassault Rafale site. I don't know what credence to attach to this, nor who posted the info:

"La seule commande à l'export date de décembre 2007, il s'agit de 14 Rafale au dirigeant lybien Mouammar Kadhafi"

Translation: The only export order dates from December 2007, covering 14 Rafales for the Libyan leader Mouammar Kadhafi

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Rafale#Commandes


User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4839 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4749 times:

Defense-Aerospace reports further details about the MoU.....

France, Libya Agree Defense Deals but Postpone Signature

Quote:
"(Dec 11) PARIS --- France and Libya have agreed in principle several military equipment deals worth as much as 4.5 billion euros, but final signature of the contracts depends on the successful conclusion of ongoing negotiations. According to an Memorandum of Understanding signed here by the two governments on Monday, negotiations are to be concluded by July 1, 2008. The French government has not confirmed the Rafale sale, and French presidential spokesman David Martinon said Monday 'I cannot confirm it, but I can confirm that in the field of armaments cooperation we want to work with the Libyans.' He added that he could not comment on 'commercial negotiations.' According to French media reports, the agreement covers the sale to Libya of up to 14 Dassault Aviation Rafale combat aircraft, armed with MICA air-to-air missiles supplied by MBDA. The agreement reportedly also covers the supply of 35 military helicopters manufactured by Eurocopter, including ten Tiger attack helicopters, 15 EC725 Caracal multi-mission utility helicopters, and ten AS550 Fennec liaison/training helicopters. The media reports claim that France has also agreed to supply: - Cesar 155mm truck-mounted self-propelled howitzers; - 60 VAB wheeled armored vehicles; - 13 Sagaie wheeled armored vehicles; - 25 VBL armored scout/liaison vehicles; - eight fast patrol boats; - air-defense radars; and - the modernization of 12 or more Dassault F-1C combat aircraft bought by Libya in the 1970s."

So, they're still looking at a package deal - will be worth watching how this turns out.

[Edited 2007-12-11 08:45:51]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineF27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4701 times:

This is really unbelievable. How can they sell top-notch product like Rafale, Mica and Tigre to someone like Kadaffi? If I were French I would be ashamed.

User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4839 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4615 times:



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 23):
How can they sell top-notch product like Rafale, Mica and Tigre to someone like Kadaffi? If I were French I would be ashamed.

Precisely the gist of the opposition against his visit and the deals.....

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2007/12/11/42818.html


Quote:
"Gaddafi is visiting France for the first time in 34 years, seeking to bolster his international standing after decades as an outcast of the West.

His visit, during which a series of deals with French firms have been signed, has angered the opposition and rights groups, who accuse Sarkozy of sacrificing principles to boost exports.

Sarkozy has retorted that he told Gaddafi at a meeting on Monday that he should do more to improve the human rights situation in Libya, but Gaddafi gave a different account.

'First of all, President Sarkozy and I did not discuss these subjects. We are quite close friends. We cooperate,' Gaddafi said in an extract of an interview on France 2 television due to be aired on Tuesday evening."


Pacts notwithstanding, France could cite its EU neighboring countries' not buying the Rafale and other defense equipment as the reason that drove these companies to seek commercial survival in rogue states. Their rationale might be, "If we didn't sell to them, someone else would."



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
25 PADSpot : During the past years he did a lot to rebuild a peaceful reputation. Every once in while one needs to reward that with a candy to keep him carrying o
26 F27Friendship : yeah, how stupid can we be. Gives him the position again to do whatever he pleases. Give him new airliners, investments in the local economy, not hig
27 Bennett123 : Given that we are talking about only 14 aircraft, surely there is a limit to the amount of harm that he can do. Also in the past, he has had major pro
28 F27Friendship : it's about the principle; BTW< he also got a significant amount of hi-tech anti armor rockets for the army
29 Wvsuperhornet : Just throwing something out and I dont always agree with who the Frech sell their weapons to, but he hasn't been linked to any terrorist activities s
30 Post contains images MadameConcorde : I also think it is a scandal (much more than a shame) that Sarkozy is pushing this deal with Khadaffi. This tells a lot about who the French president
31 F27Friendship : Everything Saddam was accused of, Kadaffi DID.. Think about that when you open your newspaper and read about the mess in Iraq..
32 RJAF : I do not see any problem with the sale of high-tech French equipment to Libya, if they don't, well somebody else will and I applaud Sarkozy for such a
33 F27Friendship : that's the lamest excuse ever.. Would you hand a serial killer a pocket knife, even if he improved his behaviour a bit?
34 RJAF : Do not wish to start a political debate here but one can argue easily that there are much, much worse countries who have done much more harm to certa
35 F27Friendship : Well... Qadafi DID have nuclear weapons and DID train and support terrorist attacks trough his own intelligence agencies. Isn;t this exactly what Sad
36 N74JW : Does it really matter if Libya buys a dozen Rafales? That is not going turn the balance of power in the Middle East. I think that Libya wants to make
37 F27Friendship : that is not the question, it's an ethical and principle thing
38 N74JW : What is questionable about France's ethics in selling them, and what principle are we trying to support? This is a business transaction. The former S
39 F27Friendship : this is all true, but in my opinion you don't sell arms to a dictator that supported terrorists, developed nuclear weapons, fired SCUDs at your count
40 N74JW : I agree. That is probably the side-effect of the arms business. Weapons will fall into the hands of the wrong people. If France doesn't do it, someon
41 F27Friendship : let them do it then, I think France should remain on the respectable countries' list
42 EBJ1248650 : The impact of this sale hinges on what the leaders in Libya want to do with those Rafales.
43 N74JW : What could they do, exactly? Re-enact the Gulf of Sidra incident? The worst they could do with 13-18 modern warplanes would be deliver a tactical nuc
44 Wvsuperhornet : Really I wasn't aware Kadaffi gased his own people?. Look I am not going to join his politcal party anytime soon or saying he is totally innocent but
45 Mir : If France sells the weapons, France can control the flow of spare parts. If France refuses to deal based on principle, they can't. One scenario leave
46 F27Friendship : one new thing: France as a huge military base in Chad (or how do you write that) to protect Chad from the Libiyans.. They have bombed Libiyan columns
47 Post contains links DEVILFISH : As the saying goes, "There are no permanent enemies, only permanent interests." http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...on-libya-seeking-arms-deals-04
48 N74JW : Let's not forget, Libya has a dozen or so Su-24's in use (see this month's AFM for photos). It does not take a Rafale or an Su-24 to bomb Chad. A B-17
49 TaromA380 : Please, tell us more about this event.
50 Post contains links F27Friendship : other discussion reply130, where I first heard about this. I have to admit I'm not familiar with the subject myself, but I regard Zeke as a reliable
51 Bennett123 : Perhaps Zeke could tell us more.
52 Wvsuperhornet : He may but also keep in mind his Son was the one who got him to condem WMD's and open up, so something tells me that the old man maybe getting ready
53 EmmenezMoi : No he didn't. He didn't do that either. SCUD's don't have the necessary range to come anywhere near France when fired from Libya. What reply 130 in t
54 F27Friendship : but wasnt because he gave them up the reason he was let into the global community again? I"m confused thanks for clearing that up
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