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F22 Foreign Sales?  
User currently offlineBlackbird1331 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1893 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 15686 times:

I just read an article in Aviation Week about the F22 Raptor. What a fantastic plane. In a recent wargame they had a 144-0 kill rate. How many nations would we sell this to? Will there come a time when the United States comes up with a plane that we will not sell, even to our closest allies? Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think we sold the U2 or SR71 to other nations,and I think the SR71 was classifed as a fighter, but not used for conventional warfare as the Raptor would be.


Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
89 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 38
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 15708 times:

Quoting Blackbird1331 (Thread starter):
I just read an article in Aviation Week about the F22 Raptor. What a fantastic plane. In a recent wargame they had a 144-0 kill rate. How many nations would we sell this to? Will there come a time when the United States comes up with a plane that we will not sell, even to our closest allies? Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think we sold the U2 or SR71 to other nations,and I think the SR71 was classifed as a fighter, but not used for conventional warfare as the Raptor would be.

Currently the US has no plans on selling it to anyone, and many in Congress and the Pentagon are opposed to such sales. But the concept of selling it to a limited number of countries like Japan keeps coming up.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineSpacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2901 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 15699 times:

I doubt it will be offered for export to anyone other than the Japanese, and whether or not they place an order is a big if.

The SR-71 was developed from the YF-12A, which was an interceptor. Not very manouverable, but when you are firing nuke-tipped AAMs, you really just have to launch in the general direction.

As for recent aircraft not exported, we also have the A-10, A-6, RA-5, and so far S-3, though there is an attempt to place the newly retired ones with Brazil.



The last of the famous international playboys
User currently offlineThorny From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 15652 times:

Quoting Blackbird1331 (Thread starter):
Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think we sold the U2 or SR71 to other nations,and I think the SR71 was classifed as a fighter, but not used for conventional warfare as the Raptor would be.

The YF-12 fighter and SR-71 reconnaissance plane both emerged from the Lockheed A-12 (sometimes A-11) Oxcart reconnaissance aircraft built for the CIA.


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 15636 times:

Yes, I agree Japan will be the most likely first customer--if indeed there are any foreign sales. IIRC, we've had this discussion before. It's not just a question of who wants to buy, or who can afford it, but what countries will be cleared for the purchase. My shortlist:
Japan
UK
Australia
Singapore

Many will include Israel, but I sincerely hope not. Not only will it significantly de-stabilize the status quo in the Mideast, but we are perfectly capable of transferring the technology to China ourselves. Thank you very much.  duck 



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineOzair From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 843 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 15623 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 4):
Singapore

I am not sure whether Singapore should be on the list, they really are the whores of the intelligence community and sell to anyone for a price. I do not think they would be a wise choice for export.

It is no secret on these boards regarding my feelings on the Raptor; it still remains the best choice as a replacement for our ageing F-18s and F-111s and to maintain the capability edge of the RAAF in the region. I would even be happy to take a slightly reduced stealth version that is designed for export as this would still provide a much greater capability and endurance to the JSF and F-18Fs that are being considered.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 1):
Currently the US has no plans on selling it to anyone, and many in Congress and the Pentagon are opposed to such sales. But the concept of selling it to a limited number of countries like Japan keeps coming up.

As I have said previously the Raptor was offered to the RAAF in the late 90s but was flatly rejected. The position of congress has since changed and it is no longer offered for foreign sale but I still believe this could be changed in a matter of months should a formal request from the United States most committed ally emerge.

Its price and timeframe seem to be converging as a perfect fit for the RAAF, especially as delays and price overruns to the JSF look inevitable.


User currently offlineBlackbird1331 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1893 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 15598 times:

I hope Australia,Japan and the UK are offered the F22. I think Israel is a good friend, but, they have a tendency to overreact, unilaterally, and the US is associated with their actions in the end. With that in mind, I do not think they should be sold the F22. Given their global position and the military capabilities of their proven enimies, they do not need such a potent weapon. Besides, if it ever should become necessary for them to have it, they will.


Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4805 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 15584 times:

Quoting Blackbird1331 (Thread starter):
In a recent wargame they had a 144-0 kill rate.

and this was against F-15s and F-16s! 4 enemies on 1 F-22 at a time too!

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 4):
Japan
UK
Australia
Singapore

UK - yes of course... but unlikely considering they are getting the EF and the F-35.
Japan would be right up there with Australia... difference being that Japan can afford such an aircraft and with China and North Korea being close by this aircraft would be ideal for Japan.
Australia - would love to see it and I'm sure the US would not have a problem with Australia getting them (Australia is a loyal allie, a secure 1st world nation, and is the US's watchdog in South-East Asia). Only problem being that they are way too expensive for Australia... If the US decided to subsidise them..or offer them at cost to Australia that may be a more attractive proposition... and it would benefit the US also... would extend the production run allowing the US to get more aircraft themselves if they wanted as well as reducing some of the overall costs of the program.
Singapore? no way... Sure Singapore is a great (small) nation and friendly, but it has too many influences on it, and from a security point of view having Singapore with the aircraft would provide an opportunity for the likes of China and nations surrounding Singapore to get valuable info about the aircraft.
Israel... I don't think Israel will be offered the F-22.... they just can't be trusted enough by the US with it... (ie selling technology onto the likes of China). The F-35 is more likely for Israel.
Besides Israel doesn't need an aircraft like the F-22...Its such a small country that is surrounded... Stealth? any combat would be closein that the aircraft would be spotted, it doesn't need big range or supercruise... the F-35 is much more suited... more aircraft for your dollar, more suited to the shorter range missions. The only mission for Israel conceivable for the F-22 would be a mission to Iran. All the other middle east nations are close enough to Israel for other aircraft.



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 15571 times:

Quoting Blackbird1331 (Thread starter):
Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think we sold the U2 or SR71 to other nations,and I think the SR71 was classifed as a fighter, but not used for conventional warfare as the Raptor would be.

The SR-71 was not a fighter (S=Strategic R=Reconnaissance). The U-2's were sold to the Nationalist Chinese (Taiwan).


User currently offlineOzair From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 843 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 15525 times:

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 7):
Only problem being that they are way too expensive for Australia... If the US decided to subsidise them..or offer them at cost to Australia that may be a more attractive proposition... and it would benefit the US also... would extend the production run allowing the US to get more aircraft themselves if they wanted as well as reducing some of the overall costs of the program.

The cost is not as prohibitive as you might think. The buy would be for about 60-70 aircraft at the lowest point of the F-22 price curve. Compare this to the JSF buy of 100 which will occur at the highest point in the price curve, we will be the first export customer and hence be paying for that privilege.

It is worth reading the following to give you a good idea of why the F-22 is the better choice for the next 30 years for the RAAF and (we will be protecting you anyway) RNZAF  Wink

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...ink-power-australias-jsf/index.php


User currently offlineEBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 15431 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 4):
Yes, I agree Japan will be the most likely first customer--if indeed there are any foreign sales. IIRC, we've had this discussion before. It's not just a question of who wants to buy, or who can afford it, but what countries will be cleared for the purchase. My shortlist:
Japan
UK
Australia
Singapore

Japan, perhaps. UK not likely given their introduction of the new Typhoon. Australia not likely. I believe it's more airplane than they need or can afford. Singapore, not likely either as I don't know that they need it even if they could afford it.



Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently onlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16823 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 15405 times:

There is strong opposition to selling the F-22 abroad, the only possible sales would be to Japan and or Australia. The reason being they would be able to help buffer against the substantial Chinese military build up.

The US will not sell the F-22 to Israel for two reasons, first it's not needed as the F-15s, F-16s and future F-35 is more than enough capability for Israel to defend itself against anything currently fielded by countries such as Iran or Syria. Second Israel's less than stellar history of protecting US military technology, several technologies have passed from the US to China via Israel.

The UK would love to have it too, but I don't think there's a threat substantial enough to justify it's price tag.

The US, Japan and Australia to buffer Chinese military expansion.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineVenus6971 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1440 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 15388 times:

Quoting Blackbird1331 (Thread starter):
Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think we sold the U2

I believe the U-2 was sold to Taiwan in which a couple have been shot down by the Chicoms.



I would help you but it is not in the contract
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 15388 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 4):
but we are perfectly capable of transferring the technology to China ourselves. Thank you very much.

 rotfl  Very funny, but bearing in mind the AWACS stories, all too true. Then again, as you perhaps indicate, the Chinese may well already have all they need through other channels. Makes you wonder why the Russians never figured out that allowing "migration" out of Russia could have helped spying no end.


User currently offlineOroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 911 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 15215 times:

IMO the US should sell, finance, barter, trade, loan as many F-22s to her allies as possible. Come time, and the sh!t hits the fan, and the now puny USAF faces a huge Chinese air force, the world will need as many F-22s in the air as possible.

User currently offlineBlackbird1331 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1893 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 15185 times:

Orka: Sorry Canada was left off of the list. Canada has always been on my favorites list. If we sell any to foreign coutries, Canada should be first. It should be noted that Canada has has always been considered by me as a friend, not a foreign country.


Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4805 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 15108 times:

Quoting Blackbird1331 (Reply 15):
Orka: Sorry Canada was left off of the list. Canada has always been on my favorites list. If we sell any to foreign coutries, Canada should be first. It should be noted that Canada has has always been considered by me as a friend, not a foreign country.

Just a few extra states North of you that are polite and talk funny eh?  Wink

Yeah Canada is the other option....
There really are only 3 countries that America would sell the F-22 to... Canada, Australia, Japan. I doubt that Canada would get them however... Canada's operations are of the more defensive rather than offensive nature... Whilst the F-22 can be defensive (and is very good at it), it is an offensive aircraft designed to own the skies. Not just air superiority, but air supremacy.
The F/A-18E/F is more suited to Canada, or the F-35 unless Canada decides it wants to get more involved in foreign conflicts such as Afghanistan, NATO/UN ops.



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineT773ER From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 277 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 15033 times:

I read somewhere that Japan was a likely candiate for the F-22, but it would be a washed down version of the Raptor we have in the USAF.


"Fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of man."
User currently offlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3521 posts, RR: 29
Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 14957 times:

I really wonder whether there will be training exercises one day with EF2000 vs F-22... No doubt the F-22 will do better, but it would be interesting to see how the performance really is of both planes...

User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4805 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (7 years 6 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 14937 times:

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 18):
I really wonder whether there will be training exercises one day with EF2000 vs F-22... No doubt the F-22 will do better, but it would be interesting to see how the performance really is of both planes...

"In March 2005, Chief of Staff General Jumper, then the only person to have flown both the Typhoon and the Raptor, gave a verbal comparison on the two aircraft. He said that "the Eurofighter is both agile and sophisticated, but is still difficult to compare to the F-22 Raptor." "They are different kinds of airplanes to start with," the general said. "It's like asking us to compare a NASCAR car with a Formula 1 car. They are both exciting in different ways, but they are designed for different levels of performance." http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...news/2005/03/mil-050322-afpn02.htm
The F-22 is faster, more manoeuverable, has longer range and endurance, stealth, supercruise, larger payload. Still the Eurofighter is pretty cool  Smile



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineOroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 911 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 14889 times:

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 16):
Orka: Sorry Canada was left off of the list.

I wasn't implying you left us off... or purpose or otherwise, just that there should be as many F-22s in the air, no matter who owns them (obviously not China or Iran).

I dont see Canada buying any F-22s... not our cup of tea. We would never be in the opening wave of a air war. I am confident that we will order F-35s, maybe around 2015-2020... gotta wring every drop of use out of those CF-18s  Yeah sure

In the case of a country that has had a history of letting some secrets slip, like Israel, F-22s could be lease only, and part of the contract, there would be a USAF maintenance unit to maintain the aircraft. The F-22s are Israeli, Israeli pilots, at Israeli bases, fueled and armed by Israeli personal, but any sensitive work is done by Americans.


User currently offlineCF188A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 14851 times:

I noticed the threat was getting a little wild.... therefore I am just going to give my two cents. The F-22 for one is the bloodiest damn expensive fighter aircraft ever designed and why would anyone want to purchase the F-22 when the F-35 is just around the corner? I mean it is still stealth, LESS than half the price, has VTOL capability... and congress has accepted the possibilities of sales to foreign nations including Canada i mean for any country to purchase the F-22 .... I dont believe it is a wise decision. The F-22 is also now the worlds most advanced when it comes to maneuvering etc etc. I am still a firm believer its whose behind the controls ... however if its a F-22 vs a MIG-21 then obviously ,but i would love to see the US put the F-22 and the F-35 head to head.... I bet the results would be humorous as the F-35 has X/Y axis thrust vectoring not just Y axis , both are stealth, both can supercruise, I mean lol, sure the F-22 can carry more ordanance but hey, I still believe it is the most efficient decision to purchase F-35s. My two cents

User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4805 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (7 years 6 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 14835 times:

Quoting CF188A (Reply 21):
I noticed the threat was getting a little wild.... therefore I am just going to give my two cents. The F-22 for one is the bloodiest damn expensive fighter aircraft ever designed and why would anyone want to purchase the F-22 when the F-35 is just around the corner? I mean it is still stealth, LESS than half the price, has VTOL capability... and congress has accepted the possibilities of sales to foreign nations including Canada i mean for any country to purchase the F-22 .... I dont believe it is a wise decision. The F-22 is also now the worlds most advanced when it comes to maneuvering etc etc. I am still a firm believer its whose behind the controls ... however if its a F-22 vs a MIG-21 then obviously ,but i would love to see the US put the F-22 and the F-35 head to head.... I bet the results would be humorous as the F-35 has X/Y axis thrust vectoring not just Y axis , both are stealth, both can supercruise, I mean lol, sure the F-22 can carry more ordanance but hey, I still believe it is the most efficient decision to purchase F-35s. My two cents

The F-35 is not as cheap as you think... its costs are spiralling all the time and it is a less capable aircraft than the F-22... F-22 costs can only come down with time.. ie if another country (Canada, Japan, Australia) was to buy the F-22 they would get a pretty good deal for it, whereas they have to pay full list price for the F-35.
So far as F-22 vs F-35 maneuvering, the F-22 is a larger aircraft, but it has more thrust available to it and has larger control surfaces. In either case the whole point of the F-22 is that it should never need to get into a dogfight in the first place due to its stealth (which is more than what the F-35 will have). The F-22 also works with conventional fighter aircraft well in that it can operate as a mini-AWACS platform... because it is stealth and has advanced computers etc it can use passive radar to pick up threats and then relay the information via secure links to other aircraft who can attack without being seen by the enemy... the F-22 is a force-multiplier...
F-35 supercruise is not going to be anywhere near the F-22 supercruise... the difference in thrust between the two aircraft is so massive... The F-22 can supercruise not just at over mach 1, but well above it... its classified, but it is thought that it can supercruise somewhere between mach 1.4 and mach 1.8. I doubt the F-35 will do much more than mach 1.2 without burner.
And of course the final argument is that the F-22 is already in service and is a known quantity... the F-35 is unknown and won't be in service for some time yet.  Wink



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineCF188A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 6 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 14833 times:

awesome info.. thank you

User currently offlineBlackbird1331 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1893 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 6 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 14738 times:

Zkpilot:Good post. As I see it, then, the F22 would make a good squadron- mom. Dump most of the ordnance and add fuel tanks so they could stay on station as the F35s come and go. And, with some weaponry, they could act as a last resort defensive weapon.


Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
25 KevinSmith : Anybody see Future Weapons recently? One of the pilots was talking about how they need to have 5 F-15s vs 1 F-22 to make it a challenge for the Raptor
26 Oroka : I would call the F-35 the F-22's little brother. It has stealth (it is almost the same as a F-117), super cruise, high tech integrated sensors, just n
27 Zkpilot : Well Australia is about as friendly a country to the USA as you can get. Australia poses no threat to the USA, and were Australia to be invaded in fu
28 KevinSmith : Your reverse psychology won't work on the US my friend. Ha Ha. Only joking of course. Very good point. But unfortunately for the Aussies, I don't thi
29 NoUFO : How much? But yes, you're probably right. Questionable, at least if you wait for the T3 Typhoons which will come with thrust vectoring noozles. Typho
30 Post contains images Zkpilot : "Former Lockheed Raptor chief test pilot Paul Metz stated that the Raptor has a fixed inlet. Metz has also stated that the F-22 has a top speed great
31 Ozair : The next year of JSF development is key to any RAAF F-22 procurement. If the aircraft begins to suffer program delays of a couple of years then the F
32 Blackbird1331 : Lockheed Martin has delivered 82F-22's and has an order for 49 more. All going to the USAF. As a note: The Joint Strike Fighter System Design and Deve
33 Zkpilot : Australia is only there at that level because they haven't gotten themselves as involved as the other countries. Australia and the UK are the USAs cl
34 Venus6971 : Being from the AWACS community I would say your comment about Canada is wrong, they are very much tide to the hip with our E-3 mission and Norad/Spac
35 Legs : If Australia did pull out of the JSF program in favour of Raptors, however unlikely that may be, will the Australian government incur any penalties? O
36 Post contains images AutoThrust : Indeed, btw the Typhoons doesnt really need the thrust vectoring noozles wich are already developed.The differences are marginal. Also we should ment
37 Ozair : We have not actually spent any money on purchasing the JSF (well not any direct money, I am sure there are plenty of studies etc which has consumed d
38 Legs : Now you mention it, i do recall a bunch of companies successful in bidding for contracts, Hawker de Havilland being the first that springs to mind. W
39 Deskflier : Two points. First, don´t get too blinded by a wargame result. The operative word here is game, not war. In Korea 1950-53 the F-86 slugged it out with
40 KevinSmith : The F-22 uses a low observable radar, the AN/APG-77. I know your point was with regard to BVR combat, but say the radar doesn't work as advertised. T
41 Post contains images Ozair : Much of the cost (and length) of development for the F-22 has been in sensor fusion. It can seamlessly receive data from many different platforms, pr
42 Legs : This has been floating around at work as well, but we've been told that theres been no tender let, nor has there been an official submission from Boe
43 Zkpilot : I should clarify by military I meant in the combat sense rather than the in-your-own-backyard Norad type situation. Many countries are in Afghanistan
44 Venus6971 : The Canadians have gotten their hands very dirty in Afghanistan under NATO command and have taken losses plus given the taliban a bloody nose or two.
45 Blackbird1331 : These weapons are about protecting the people of the free world. I doubt the level is based on a level of friendship, but based on an expected level o
46 Ozair : I'm not convinced that the Super Hornet is a wise decision as a bridging aircraft. It does not have the range, payload or capability of the aircraft
47 Blackbird1331 : Ozair: I was refering to reply number 32. The JSF design and development partners were assigned levels. Subsequent posts seemed to infer the assigned
48 Ozair : Okay I understand. Interesting though as the RAAF was/are talking about full source code access to allow them to integrate their own weapons and sens
49 Legs : Amen to that! He who has the biggest and best toys wins, especially in our neck of the woods, with all the neighbours to the north buying hotrods as
50 Venus6971 : With the 144 to nothing score I just heard about the F-22 verses F-15 and 16's it will be a needed asset if ever a shooting war over Taiwan or the Spr
51 Post contains images Baroque : So delicately put! Have you been writing letters for DoD to our Minister telling him he cannot have the F22s he says he does not want?
52 Blackbird1331 : Baroque: Diplomacy and protocal; they make the world go 'round.
53 Post contains images Baroque : They surely do Blackbird! In the same week as we learned that the F22 is too secret for us, we also learn we will host a new sat spy base in WA. Grea
54 Post contains links Tak : Hi Everyone, Just saw an article which says that the US has informed Australia that it will not exprot the raptor to them. Raw deal if you ask me! Jus
55 Cloudy : That smells like a political decision to protect the F-35 program. Loosing potential F-35 sales to the F-22 would be highly embarassing to many who ha
56 Lumberton : Or...maybe the Australian Government asked for this to silence the minority of opinion within Australia itself that thinks the Raptor is a better cho
57 StealthZ : There are many here quite offended by this, I share a house with an officer in the ADF and his reaction would likely get me banned from A.net. On som
58 Atmx2000 : Maybe, but Boeing on the other hand might lobby for it given they have a large share of the F-22 but not the F-35. There is another consideration: it
59 Lumberton : Well, here's another scenario. After much ranting and outrage in the Australian press, the Australian government demands the "right" to purchase the
60 StealthZ : Absolutely, I doubt that many in the US would agree to anyone paying a "flyaway" price after all the development was done.. except maybe some in the
61 Atmx2000 : I won't be surprised to see incremental orders for the F-22 extending production down the road. The larger number of units will decrease per unit cos
62 Checksixx : Bottom line is the Raptor is currently banned from FMS. On another note any country thats pissed off because we decide not to sell a weapon system to
63 StealthZ : Your country of almost 300m people has a slight industrial & technical capacity advantage over many others!! On the contrary, it is often the USA tha
64 Post contains images Baroque : You might think that, but in Australia we could not possibly say it. And as for Lumberton's suggestions, you could be so close to the truth you need
65 Blackbird1331 : I must ask, does there come a time when a country should say no to its friends and allies? Just how sensitive is this weapon? I feel that if the USA d
66 Checksixx : They're not all smart...your country would have no problem making a significant dent in the defense industry. Well I think any country thats trying t
67 StealthZ : Quite right, but it would be fair to say that for here as well.. so you still have 15:1 advantage in "smart" people! Apologies Ah, the tanks, let's s
68 Post contains images Baroque : I wonder if you really mean that. In WWII we did just that. Since then, large parts of our aircraft industry have been bought by US firms and to cons
69 Blackbird1331 : Baroque: If the USA is willing to sell the F22 to Israel, who, I feel, is a loose cannon, then I do not think it improbable that it be offered to our
70 StealthZ : Wouldn't just shipping the design data & tooling to China be more cost effective? If the US sold (or gave) Raptor to Israel then there would be many
71 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Yeah tell me about it... How is the F-16/Lavi edition development going...sorry, I meant the J-10. B4e-Forever New Frontiers
72 Checksixx : ---It seems you have not read my post above, please check it as I clearly stated that I was not attempting to single out any one specific country...C
73 Post contains images Baroque : The relevant part is requoted above. Let us see. One country is mentioned Australia. "Battlespace OVER Australia". Ah so it must be whoever is going
74 Checksixx : Baroque...Sorry if your offended by my statement...you seem to be the only one that has trouble understanding my comments and clarifications I made af
75 Post contains images Baroque : Not at all offended. Just slightly puzzled you do not know what it seems to me you wrote. I am not offended by what you wrote, it is not that far fro
76 Post contains links Blackbird1331 : I went here: http://www.f22-raptor.com/government/today.html Interesting reading as it discusses why the F15s,16s,and 18s are not suited for flying co
77 Checksixx : Sorry, you have me confused with someone else as I never used that term...Check
78 Post contains images Baroque : Indeed, check, that is what I said. "Dependent" was my term not yours. What would be interesting would be to know what your term for such states woul
79 Checksixx : I don't have one. Australia certainly isn't one of them. Stop trying to pick a fight and move on. To get back on topic...The aircraft is banned from F
80 TSV : Minority? I'd like to see a vote on that one.
81 Post contains images ACFA : You mean this one?
82 Blackbird1331 : Gen. Ronald Keys, chief of the US Air Combat Command, says the F22 and the B2 are not invisible and that if they stay on station in a battle zone long
83 KevinSmith : We should have never retired the Spark Vaark. B-1's has some pretty good EWO capability too.
84 Post contains links DEVILFISH : Here are two more to add to the "tall tales".... http://www.f-16.net/news_article2199.html http://www.f-16.net/news_article2196.html
85 Checksixx : Not really tall tales when its really happening...Awesome jet...Check
86 DEVILFISH : Please note that I put the words in quotation marks.
87 Blackbird1331 : In the second link, reply 84, Hutchinson's closing remark is that the only way to keep the cost of the F22 down is to keep the line open. Obviously; b
88 Checksixx : Yes, I'm aware of your post...I understood it and was agreeing with how you presented it...Check
89 Blackbird1331 : I know we will sell it to friendlies.
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