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Russia Engine Embargo Derails JF-17 Sale  
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 10255 times:

Not enough room in the Topic line to say what I wanted:
"Russian Engine Embargo Derails JF-17 Sale to Pakistan" was what I wanted it to read!
Good story here.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...ni-jf17-program-grounded/index.php
What a tangled web!

Quote:
...China signed a $550 million agreement with Grumman in 1986 to modernise its J-7 fighter (MiG-21 copy) under the "Super-7" upgrade project, with US and British firms competing to provide the engine and avionics. The project was canceled after the Tienanmen Square massacre, but Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation managed to continue the programme with its own resources, and the project was re-branded as FC-1 (Fighter China-1). US sanctions related to Pakistan's nuclear program and Chinese-Pakistani use of ballistic missile components led Pakistan to seek helps from its Chinese ally. A joint development and production agreement was signed in June 1999, with China Aviation Import and Export Corporation (CATIC) and Pakistan each contributing 50% of the estimated $150 million development costs.

The Pakistan Government had hoped to sign a deal to acquire 150 JF-17/FC-1 fighters in 2007, with 8 aircraft in service by year's end. China had reportedly even bought 100 Klimov RD-93 engines from Russia for installing on JF-17s, with an option to contract another 400 engines.

There's only one problem: Russia has just refused permission for the transfer of its RD-93 engines, derived from the RD-33 that equips the MiG-29. The decision comes only a few days after a visit to India by Russia's Deputy Prime Minister and Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov, during which a number of joint defense projects were discussed and agreements were signed. These include the MRTA transport aircraft, and reportedly a "5th generation fighter" project, even as the MiG-29OVT/MiG-35 is touted as the likely winner of the multi-billion MRCA fighter contract.

Coincidence? Not a chance. Replacement with another engine? Unless it's a very close copy, that requires re-work of the entire fighter design and takes years. Just ask the J-10 project team.

Bottom line? Pakistan's ongoing F-16 fleet upgrade and expansion program with the USA has just become much more important - giving the USA a larger lever to use over Pakistani behaviour vis-a-vis Afghanistan, al-Qaeda, et. al.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
14 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4798 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (7 years 7 months 20 hours ago) and read 10147 times:

From a different angle, this development could adversely affect delivery of Russian fighter aircraft that China has on order. How would the Chinese react? Is it highly unthinkable that they might order from the West and would the latter sell to them?


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 38
Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 20 hours ago) and read 10138 times:

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 1):
From a different angle, this development could adversely affect delivery of Russian fighter aircraft that China has on order. How would the Chinese react? Is it highly unthinkable that they might order from the West and would the latter sell to them?

Certain European countries would love to sell stuff to China given that they don't have any defense obligations in East Asia. The US has objected whenever they broach the subject, because obviously the US has such obligations and forces deployed.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 19 hours ago) and read 10123 times:

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 1):
How would the Chinese react?

I suspect they will comply; they simply have no other choice until they can produce comparable engines themselves.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4798 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 7 hours ago) and read 10019 times:

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 2):
Certain European countries would love to sell stuff to China given that they don't have any defense obligations in East Asia.

I imagine European companies could come up with zero-US-content military hardware they could sell to China, but that could be a bit reckless. OTOH, China would not risk the readiness of their frontline equipment including the carriers from Russia, which they could not readily and cheaply replace with Western gear.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 3):
I suspect they will comply; they simply have no other choice until they can produce comparable engines themselves.

LockMart would be well positioned then to offer Pakistan KAI's T/A-50 as a substitute in case of a Chinese default, provided they price it competitively against the likes of L-159, M-346 or MB-339 and Hawk 128, as Yak-130 would be out of the running.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Dmitriy Pichugin - Russian AviaPhoto Team


http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...re-golden-eagles-for-training.html

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...664/usaf-offered-t-50-trainer.html

[Edited 2007-01-26 13:09:12]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4798 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 9322 times:

Flightglobal reports that 2 JF-17 light combat fighters arrived in Pakistan. But the accompanying video looks like promotional stuff shot in China. The report says the aircraft will be exhibited during a flypast on March 23.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...7-thunder-arrives-in-pakistan.html

How did that get past the Russian restriction - did they change the engines?

Meanwhile, KAI's Golden Eagle is to have electronic attack and reconnaissance variants.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...heed-martin-t-50-advanced-jet.html

Quote:
"Planned role equipment for the new aircraft includes active jamming pods and Raytheon AGM-88 HARM anti-radiation missiles for the EA-50 and an electro-optical/infrared pod for the RA-50, potentially the Elop long-range oblique imagery system already ordered for the air force's Lockheed F-16s. Additional equipment to be used in common with the FA-50 includes radar warning receivers and counter­measures dispensers, says Lee."



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29795 posts, RR: 58
Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 9207 times:

I have to wonder if the Russians where asked to kill this engine use by the Indians.

The Russians are keen to win the lightweight fighter competition and I don't think it is entirely impossible for somebody in India to wisper in their ear to kill this deal for Pakistan.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineSpacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2914 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 9117 times:

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 5):
Flightglobal reports that 2 JF-17 light combat fighters arrived in Pakistan. But the accompanying video looks like promotional stuff shot in China. The report says the aircraft will be exhibited during a flypast on March 23.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...7-thunder-arrives-in-pakistan.html

How did that get past the Russian restriction - did they change the engines?

Probably not. I'd suspect the JF-17s are still Chinese owned, and are visiting, rather than being delivered to the PAF.



The last of the famous international playboys
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4798 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 8171 times:

In a new development, India Defense reports the signing of an agreement between China and Russia for the re-export of the RD-93 engines used in the JF-17. This could pave the way for the completion of JF-17 deliveries to Pakistan......

http://www.india-defence.com/reports/3087

Quote:
Russia to Permit Chinese Sale of RD-93 Fighter Jet Engines to Pakistan
India Defence Premium
Dated 26/4/2007

"In what could cause concern to India, Russia has reportedly permitted China to re-export its RD-93 fighter engines to Pakistan.

'This permission will enable the supply of 150 Chinese JF-17 fighter aircrafts to Pakistan, and help implement the contract for the supply of Russian engines worth USD 238 million,' Russian daily 'Kommersant' reported today."


Russian hardball or their version of horsetrading?



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8106 times:

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 8):
'This permission will enable the supply of 150 Chinese JF-17 fighter aircrafts to Pakistan, and help implement the contract for the supply of Russian engines worth USD 238 million,' Russian daily 'Kommersant' reported today."
Russian hardball or their version of horsetrading?

Frankly, I suspect this news, if true, will infuriate the Indian government, but could it jeopardize their position in the IAF competition?



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4798 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8049 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 9):
Frankly, I suspect this news, if true, will infuriate the Indian government, but could it jeopardize their position in the IAF competition?

IMO, only to the extent that those playing the game wish it to affect the results. Although it may come to pass that one might overplay his hand and see things go out of control.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4798 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (6 years 7 months ago) and read 6138 times:

Update:





It appears the Pakistani JF-17 program is moving ahead in earnest.....

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-3705

Pakistan starts mass production of JF-17 fighters

Dated 22/1/2008

Quote:
"Pakistan began on Tuesday the mass assembly of a JF-17 fighter at an aircraft-manufacturing plant in the northwest of the country, national television reported.

The JF-17 Thunder, also known as the FC-1 Fierce Dragon in China, is a single-seat multirole fighter aircraft developed by China and Pakistan. About 50% of the on-board equipment and avionics for the fighter will be manufactured in Pakistan at the Kamra plant, while the rest of the assembly parts are to come from China."


[Edited 2008-01-26 20:10:56]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (6 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6049 times:



Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 2):

Certain European countries would love to sell stuff to China given that they don't have any defense obligations in East Asia.

Defense sales to China have been embargoed by the EU since 1989.


User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 38
Reply 13, posted (6 years 6 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 5924 times:



Quoting PADSpot (Reply 12):
Defense sales to China have been embargoed by the EU since 1989.

Nitpick: the EU didn't exist in 1989. The individual European countries embargoed sales.

Anyway I said "would love." The France and Germany under Chirac and Schroeder advocated the lifting of the arms ban.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/03/24/news/china.php

I believe Merkel is opposed, but Sarkozy remains in favor.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 14, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5680 times:

Things seem to be changing in the arms Russian-Chinese arms relationship according to this report.
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=3339336&C=europe

Quote:
Russian Arms Exports to China in Collapse: Report
By AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE

MOSCOW — Russia’s arms industry is suffering a near collapse in exports to China as military top brass agonize over which technology the neighboring state should be allowed, a Russian daily reported Jan. 29.
The independent newspaper Nezavisimaya Gazeta said that Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov would visit China to try to resolve problems in this key relationship before President Vladimir Putin’s final term ends in May.
From a situation where 40 percent of Russian earnings from arms exports came from China, “recently exports to China of our military equipment and weapons have dropped almost to zero,” the paper said.
One problem is the recent breakdown of a contract to supply transport and refueling aircraft after problems at an Uzbek contractor, the paper said.
But the main issue is indecision over which technology can safely be sold to China, as well as Beijing’s desire to receive licenses to do the work itself, the paper said, citing a senior officer overseeing the arms industry, Mikhail Dmitriyev.
Russia’s arms export agency declined to comment on the report when contacted by AFP, as did the defense ministry.




"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
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