Warlord From Netherlands, joined Jun 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0 Posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 10775 times:
Allof this data have been taken from another forum read them and tell me are they right: The Dutch have quite a reputation with the USN - in the fall of 1999, a single Dutch SSK 'sunk' a carrier and five of its escorts in only a few hours time...
A DACT-exercise of interest is also the highly-rumoured but poorly reported USN/IDFAF DACTing above the Negev a few years, where the USN reportedly had its (excusez le mot) ass kicked
In 1992, one of dutch F-16 squadrons "clashed" with F-14Bs from USS Saratoga in a series of DACM exercises over Sicilly, and - as it seems - the exercise ended pretty embarassing for USN fliers.
Well, I remember visiting the French Air Base from Cambrai, Home of the 12th escadre de chasse in the early 80's during an open door event...the 12 Escadre Mirage F1C were just coming back from the south of France where they had a joint DACM exercice with USN. There was a stand from the EC 3/12 with almost twenty black and white gunsight pictures showing F14A with a Mirage gunsight piper right in the middle of a it (Any flavor you want : from behind, vertically from above with the sea right under, and some time really close...). I talk with the pilots and they told me that the F14 was quite dangerous when it was in the long range arena, but in the close range, it was no problem for them... They even told me of an engagement where the Mirage were sucessfull in reaching a refuelling zone without been noticed and they "shoot down" the 2 A7 tanker and 3 F14 before the USN guys noticed something was happening...
Could anybody confirme this or its just a french/dutch vs USN wordsfight
Jwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 18
Reply 2, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 10666 times:
The well-known Tomcat bashing by Dutch F-16s was a disgrace for the US Navy, but there are several factors making it less dramatic:
1) the exercise lasted 2 days. The first day the 'cats killed all the Falcons easily. The second day the Falcons won out. In between was a US holiday (4th of July I think) which had the Navy pilots partying until late at night so they were hardly at their best.
2) the ROE were strictly visual engagement. The 'cats did not have the opportunity to employ their superior BVR weapons capability before closing to dogfighting range. Had they had the opportunity, they'd have had numbers on their side.
Soren-a From Denmark, joined Sep 2001, 235 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 10622 times:
In Air Forces Monthly a year or so ago there were a short news brief about the USN having DACM with the IDF/AF in which the USN apparently had their butt kick by the Israli F-16 and F-15 (I can't remember for sure but I think the "kill-ratio" was something like 20-1 in favor of the IDF/AF).
The news came from Israeli sources and the USN wouldn't comment.
The outcome might have been a result of no longe-range engagement where the F-14 is at its best. The article didn't mention anything about that.
Also the USN fliers might have been outnumbered.
CX747 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4473 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 10612 times:
I have read the article that you are talking about. The USN and the USAF got their butts handed to them. The USN F-14s and F/A-18s were used along with USAF F-16CJs. There were other motives though in this exercise. They USN and USAF were told to go head to head with the Israleis to see if there was a need for the F-22 and JSF. If the USN and USAF had won, it is thought that both programs would have been canceled as their was no need for next level fighters.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower