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Japanese CX / PX Update  
User currently offlineBritJap From Japan, joined Aug 2006, 280 posts, RR: 2
Posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Greetings

This is a general thread to share information about these two projects as good info about them seems very hard to come by, but I will share what I know.
I have been meaning to write this for ages but have never got round to it until now. (I hope Keesje likes it).  Smile

The reason for my sudden rush to type this is of course the rollout date for the CX which is at last finally upon us (March 6th 2007)...or at least it should have been. The recently formed Japanese Ministry of Defence disclosed at the start of Feb. that imported rivets used in both the CX & PX had failed strength tests and that they were investigating possible effects.
The (unfortunate) effect as recently reported in the newspaper is that the rivets need replacing and rollout has been postponed to an unspecified date. The new rollout date will be judged based on the results of the investigation.

Originally I believe the plan was for the CX to be on static display at the Paris Airshow this year. I wonder is this now feasible?? I really hope it can still make it.

I also have a fairly large article about KHI's investigation into these frames into civilian aircraft. I haven't got round to translating it all yet, but will post the gist of what it says when I do.

For now though here are a bunch of (slightly old) photos of the CX / PX mock-ups that I hope you guys haven't seen before.

AAAhhhhhh...........The 'mouse over acronym' feature on this site is conflicting with the URL for the pictures I cant put them up individually or even link directly to the site.  banghead 
So use the link below and change the small c (in PXcX) to a big C.
Japanese only BTW.

http://www.asagumo-news.com/graph/PXcX.html

I will load up some more pictures later.

Cheers

J.

64 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBritJap From Japan, joined Aug 2006, 280 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Mmmm pictures seem to be working now so here they are...















User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12178 posts, RR: 51
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Great pictures. BTW, where did they get the flawed rivets from? Can the CX make the Paris Air Show? Possibly, but it really depends on how many revits need to be replaced. If it is only a few thousand, then they should be able to do it. But, if all revits need to be replaced, then no, it cannot be done.

User currently offlineBritJap From Japan, joined Aug 2006, 280 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 32767 times:

Neither of the two sources I read mentioned where the rivets came from. Only that they were imported.

I hope it can make Paris. If it does then I will definately be going to see it.

Such a pity that these a/c will not be rolled out today as intended!!!!

Here are a few more pictures.

http://www.mod.go.jp/trdi/img/air1-1.jpg

http://www.mod.go.jp/trdi/img/air1-2.jpg





User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

The C-X looks a lot like a mini-C-17...


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4700 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

What type of engine is that on the PX ?


Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineBritJap From Japan, joined Aug 2006, 280 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting N328KF (Reply 4):
The C-X looks a lot like a mini-C-17...

Yeah...KHI have clearly taken some design cues from the C-17 but hey, the the C-17 is one hell of a good design....
But I think more significantly it looks like the C-1 which it is designed to replace.

Why try to re-invent the wheel???  Smile

Quoting A342 (Reply 5):
What type of engine is that on the PX ?

The engine for the PX is an indigenous design being built by IHI called the XF7.

The CX will be using the GE CF6-80C2.


User currently offlineEBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

The PX looks like the Japanese took the basic P-3 design, swept the wings and replaced turboprops with jets or fan jets. In any case, it looks like it will meet their need for a maritime patrol airplane for some years to come. I wonder if the plane has export potential? P-3 is getting long in the tooth and Boeing's P-8 may not meet the needs of every nation requiring a maritime patrol aircraft.


Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting BritJap (Thread starter):
This is a general thread to share information about these two projects as good info about them seems very hard to come by, but I will share what I know.

Thnx for the info / photo´s!

I´ve done searches on those aircraft for years, but obviously the japanese very well managed to keep the doors closed, until now when they decided to go public (probably has to do with politics / delays).

rgds


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13252 posts, RR: 77
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Thanks from me too, for the info on a significant, but seemingly very under-reported, pair of projects.

Despite being a democratic friendly state, you rarely see much of their post war home designed aircraft.
Partly I think due to the severe export restrictions.

There is a wealth of fascinating stuff to consider.
From their line of jet trainers, culminating in the current T-4, with the first Asian supersonic type, the T-2 trainer and single seat strike version of the 1970's-what I call the 'Jaguar-J', J for Japan! But that's not to knock the aircraft.
The virtually unknown C-1 jet transport, the lovely flying boats-a modernised version now in production for SAR.
(Surely a potential for a great fire fighting aircraft here?)


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Imagine the costs of this project. Or better projects, the two aircraft seem to have limited commonality ($20B?). The Japanese build up a lot of aerospace knowledge. Investing tens of billions only for limited domestic use and no export ambition.

Kawasaki OH 1 "Reconnaissance" helicopter.. (hardly armed)


User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting N328KF (Reply 4):
The C-X looks a lot like a mini-C-17...

If you look at it's predecessor, the Kawasaki C-1 it's pretty obvious that the new C-X has an established Japanese heritage.


User currently offlineBritJap From Japan, joined Aug 2006, 280 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Right well...
I have recently read an interview with one of the chief designers on the CX / PX program. He explained a little further about the problem with the rivets.

They were apparently one batch of many imported from the US.This particular batch had not received a heat treatment designed to increase their strength. Unfortunately if my translation is correct, this sub-standard batch has been mixed with other rivets that were fine.

And yes you guessed it...that means that the precise location of the faulty rivets is now not known!!!

The numbers involved are not too high. Approx. 2% of the total number of rivets. (Though that still equate to around 10,000 rivets) That figure relates to the CX. Lucky the figures for the PX are a lot lower, and they are hoping that there wont be significant effects on this program.

The guy explained that each rivet is having to be checked by way of measuring its electrical resistance which would be changed by the heat treatment. Where a faulty rivet is found it must be carefully drilled out, and a new one installed. This work is being carried out under 24 hour conditions he said.


User currently offlineBritJap From Japan, joined Aug 2006, 280 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 8):
probably has to do with politics / delays

Just a quick note to say that this is actually the first delay of a program that had been running right on schedule.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 10):
Imagine the costs of this project



Quoting Keesje (Reply 10):
$20B

Also the cost of this program is approx. 340,000,000,000 JPY = approx. 1.5 Billion GBP


User currently offlineBritJap From Japan, joined Aug 2006, 280 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Mmmm...dont seem to be that many interested parties, but I will keep posting all the same!!  Smile

Couple more pictures...





User currently offlineBritJap From Japan, joined Aug 2006, 280 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

And a few more of the PX in the Static test rig...








User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

That second pic looks suspiciously like the CX in the test rig.

User currently offlineBritJap From Japan, joined Aug 2006, 280 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 16):
That second pic looks suspiciously like the CX in the test rig.

Um...I did of course know that already I was just err... keeping you on your toes!!!!!  silly   biggrin 

You are absolutley right.


User currently offlineBritJap From Japan, joined Aug 2006, 280 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 32767 times:





User currently offlineBritJap From Japan, joined Aug 2006, 280 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

These are some photos taken I believe near the end of last year. The engines are not yet installed but they show the most complete aircraft seen yet including a hint at what they will look like with a full paint scheme.

Now I am really starting look forward to seeing these a/c in the air.  cloudnine 





User currently offlineBritJap From Japan, joined Aug 2006, 280 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Some more pictures.......

The XF7 being tested on the C1 flying testbed.



I posted these a while ago but they didn't work, so I had the post deleted and now I am posting the page link.
The page is in Japanese but if you scroll around there are three photos of the C1 FTB with the XF7 attached.

http://page.freett.com/airwings/gifu2004_11.htm

There is also a video of the engine on the FTB.

http://www.mod.go.jp/trdi/topics/video.wmv


User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1720 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Such a shame they can't export weapons since I think these two would be a hit in the international market, specially the CX.

User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4952 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Here is the Flightglobal report dealing with the rivets.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ki-transport-and-mpa-projects.html

Quote:
"KHI had planned to stage a dual roll-out ceremony for the new aircraft on 6 March, but is assessing the implications of the production fault. This centres on the use of defective rivets provided by a US supplier for the assembly of centre fuselage sections for the programme's static, fatigue and strength and flight-test aircraft."


And the one describing the projects.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ts-new-look-military-aircraft.html

Quote:
KAWASAKI HEAVY INDUSTRIES

"Japan's Kawasaki Heavy Industries is leading the development of the C-X transport, which is to replace the Japan Air Self-Defence Force's current 27 Kawasaki C-1s. The first aircraft had been scheduled to complete final assembly early next month and to make its first flight in mid-year, but this schedule has been delayed.

An air force evaluation of the C-X is due to run between fiscal years 2009 and 2011, with structural and fatigue testing also to conclude at the same time.

The C-X is to share a high level of design and component commonality with the P-X maritime patrol aircraft also being developed by Kawasaki for the Japan Maritime Self-Defence Force. The joint projects are being conducted using state funding worth ¥340 billion ($2.83 billion).

The C-X will be powered by General Electric CF6-80C2 turbofan engines and up to 44 transports could be produced to replace the C-1. The transport could also be developed for use as a commercial freighter."


Hope that shed some light into these interesting aircraft.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineBritJap From Japan, joined Aug 2006, 280 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Pics of the XF7 in its testbed.



The testing shown below was carried out in Feb this year in the aerospace facility at Taiki, Hiroo county, Hokkaido Japan. Water was sprayed into the engine to test the effects of icing.



This shows the engine mid test.


The result after the tests.


And here's the engine itself; Rated with a thrust of approx. 6 tons ; Bypass ratio approx. 8.5.


User currently offlineBritJap From Japan, joined Aug 2006, 280 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

This is a Nice one  bouncy  (Its big so click to expand)

http://www.mod.go.jp/trdi/img/saiyou_kenkyu1.jpg


25 Keesje : Britjap thanks for keeping us informed. They seem to have set the information doors really wide open after many yrs of silence. I wonder what the comm
26 A342 : Do you happen to have the exact thrust in kN? If it provides at least 65kN, it could be used to re-engine the C-1. How much life have the C-1 airfram
27 Post contains images Britjap : The day I have been waiting for has finally arrived!!!! A few days ago there was a report that the CX & PX were going to be rolled out in mid June, bu
28 MDorBust : The PX reminds me of a DC-8.
29 Post contains links DEVILFISH : Flightglobal has a report on it..... http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ls-new-military-aircraft-pair.html Interesting that the patrol aircraft i
30 Egronenthal : I'm not sure what Flight International has been smoking, but the C-X and the P-X will be using different engines. The P-X will use four of the newly-
31 Post contains links Oroka : Looks like they have been rolled out. http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...9/japan-unveils-military-pair.html
32 L-188 : I always wondered what would happen if a DC-8 and Electra had sex.
33 Post contains links and images Egronenthal : IMHO, the P-X looks like the old McDonnell 119/220 on steroids... View Large View MediumPhoto © Peter de Groot View Large View MediumPhoto ©
34 Post contains links DEVILFISH : Whatever it was, the ill-effect must have since passed..... http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...and-patrol-pair-from-kawasaki.html Quote: "The hig
35 Post contains images BritJap : " target=_blank>http://www.flightglobal.com/articles....html Haha I am pleased to say that I could bring this news to A.net more than a week before e
36 Post contains links and images BritJap : The link will probably disappear soon so look at it while its there I guess. As I mentioned the official rollout of the the CX & PX aircraft happened
37 Post contains images DL021 : The Japanese could find themselves selling a commercial variant that ends up in military hands, and Embraer will have competition on it's potential tw
38 Keesje : I think the fact the Japanese have a long term strategy to not remain a sub contractor in aerospace forever. They want to be leading when Asai Aerosp
39 DL021 : On this we agree completely. I think that Boeing kept back the leading and trailing edge work on their wings from the Japanese in order to preserve s
40 Post contains images HanginOut : The CX is one sexy bird, I wonder if I could convince anyone over at DND (Canada's Dept of National Defence) to take a look at it in place of the C130
41 DL021 : Because their constitution forbids them from selling military equipment abroad. The whole thing revolves around stemming any potential military expan
42 Post contains links and images BritJap : Loads I would like to post so here goes... Starting of course with the official photos. Heres another video link I was pointed to through 2ch. As I gu
43 Post contains images BritJap : Random media photos
44 BritJap : Also heres a short update... The C-X & P-X official rollout has now happened, and flight testing is scheduled to get underway in September. According
45 DEVILFISH : If what has been posited in the Civ/Av thread that the Japanese were gradually relaxing their stance and promoting the commercial transport variant t
46 Post contains images HanginOut : Is it just me or does the PX look like an airplane out of the Tintin comics?
47 DL021 : Well done! This is the sort of stuff I come to this forum for.....excellent work! Thanks It sort of does. What's the range on this thing again?
48 Post contains links and images BritJap : Hi guys Okay back once again for another photo update... And here are some really good videos. The first is of the rollout ceremony again. Not as fanc
49 Post contains images BritJap : More photos from a Japanese news agency... The accompanying article was stressing the scale of Japanese industrial involvement in these two projects.
50 Keesje : BritJAp thnx for the loads of new info after yrs of an information stop on these projects Proud days for the Japanese aerospace industry after a massi
51 EBJ1248650 : How much bigger than the C-1 is the CX? Do I understand the Japanese aren't permitted to export their military aircraft designs?
52 Post contains images BritJap : There was a nice diagram that someone had made showing size comparisons that I saw on 2ch. If I can find it again I will post it for you. Yes you are
53 Post contains images BritJap : Some really bad news this time!! It was revealed yesterday (Jul 30) by the Japanese Ministry of Defence that some problems have been detected regardin
54 BritJap : I will post updates on the above news item as I have various bits and pieces to translate. But for now here is part of a television programme I found
55 Post contains links DEVILFISH : These would cast serious doubts on Japan's announced intent to develop an indigenous stealth fighter..... http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...er-i
56 Post contains images BritJap : Yes I first read about this project several months ago. I have received absolutely tons of articles relating to this recently but simply have not bot
57 Post contains links DEVILFISH : Update: P-X first flight expected mid-September. C-X first flight postponed till December. Videos of the two taxiing separately here..... http://www.f
58 Post contains links and images BritJap : Wooooooo nearly 10,000 views!! My regards to anyone taking an interest. Its been ages since I even signed in and I dont have much new news, but I did
59 LMP737 : Looking at the PX it sort of looks like a cross between a P-3 and a DC-8.
60 Post contains links and images BritJap : Wow....well, this time I am pleased to bring some good news!! I am constantly away from the computer these days so I am actually a bit late in bringin
61 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Any idea where I can find the MoD one for higher quality? Nifty looking airplane. Looks like a shrunken DC-8. B4e-Forever New Frontiers
62 Post contains links BritJap : Here you go... http://www.mod.go.jp/trdi/topics/topics2/P-XFirstFlight.mpg (Its a bit slow loading)
63 Post contains links and images BritJap : A few more details about Fridays flight.... The flight was on Fri. 28th September 2007 at 9:38am Japanese time. The aircraft was flown by pilots from
64 Post contains links and images BritJap : Another pic
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