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Turkey Chooses Mangusta A129  
User currently offlineTK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4451 posts, RR: 12
Posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4380 times:

After a seven year ordeal, Turkey decided on A129. Up to 52 of them will be purchased and built in Turkey, at a cost of $3Billion.


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The loosing party was Rooivalk of Denel, S.Africa, partly due to use of French made engines, and Turkish boycott of France and its policy towards Armenian genocide. It is ironic but there was a boycott of Italian goods few years back, because Italy refused to hand over the PKK leader Ocalan to Turkey at the time. American Apache was eliminated earlier since they wouldn't want production in Turkey.
Also today Turkish Armed Forces decided to manufacture its own battle tanks with possible help from the Koreans with a budget of $1Billion.

16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineTK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4451 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4325 times:

Here is an English link from theTurkish paper Zaman:
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=107044


User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4299 times:

Quoting TK787 (Thread starter):
Turkish boycott of France and its policy towards Armenian genocide

... did you say 'genocide'? Be careful ... Big grin

What about the Tiger? Also rejected because of French engines?

I find it a little ridiculous to boycott products that have some parts originating from a country that has an opposing opinion towards an anyway questionable facet of the buyers history. Especially given the fact that France is one of the countries that certainly has one of the last words on Turkey's membership in the EU. They are biting the hands that feed them ...


User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4260 times:

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 2):
Especially given the fact that France is one of the countries that certainly has one of the last words on Turkey's membership in the EU. They are biting the hands that feed them ...

Perhaps they have realized that it isn't going to happen, despite Turkish attempts to ingratiate themselves in the past with Europeans.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 19
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4252 times:

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 2):
Especially given the fact that France is one of the countries that certainly has one of the last words on Turkey's membership in the EU. They are biting the hands that feed them ...

Just shows that Turkey has more backbone that most of the EU and are willing to stand for what they believe in rather than bend over backwards to please the Frogs...
They're not a French colony yet (unlike most of the EU) and seem to like it that way (something I can understand).



I wish I were flying
User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4205 times:

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 4):

Just shows that Turkey has more backbone that most of the EU and are willing to stand for what they believe in rather than bend over backwards to please the Frogs...
They're not a French colony yet (unlike most of the EU) and seem to like it that way (something I can understand).

Not a question of showing backbone at all. Statistics show that more than 80% of all EU-citizens oppose Turkey's EU-membership. Among others the French government represents its people's opinion. Now it's up to Turkey to confront these sentiments and to show the necessary determination and will to follow the European idea. That has nothing to do with "economic brown-nosing" ... after all the A129 is still a pretty European product and thus this topic is not really appropriate to criticize Turkey. I just wanted to say that behaving snotty towards a country that has a significant influence on the prospects of your countries maybe biggest strategic project, is not really a clever idea.


User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7960 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4123 times:

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 4):
Just shows that Turkey has more backbone that most of the EU

Sure. Thanks to their backbone they still don't acknowledge the genocide against Armenians.
And what do you call the French position? Did they "bend over backwards" to sell some engines or helis? They didn't, so they "stand for what they believe in", don't they?

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 4):
They're not a French colony yet (unlike most of the EU) and seem to like it that way (something I can understand).

Of course, that's why Turkey almost desperarately wants to join the European Union. They even abolished the death penalty and torture, although probably not entirely history in Turkey, has become far less systematic - only to qualify for the European Union membership and to thus become a French colony.
Frankly, your contributions are often completely daft.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineBahadir From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 1801 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3933 times:

So,
we are becoming an active museum of helicopters:
- Cobras (earlier versions though) for Turkish Army
- Blackhawks for Turkish Jandarma, Army and Police
- Seahawks for Turkish Navy
- Cougars for Turkish Navy and Army
and now for something completely different .. Augusta..

Frankly I wouldn't mind Cobras. US was not willing to provide the code for the systems , but then again Aselsan, Havelsan has done an awesome job in terms of delivering what is required in terms of software and electronics.



Earthbound misfit I
User currently offlineWing From Turkey, joined Oct 2000, 1573 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3895 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 6):
Of course, that's why Turkey almost desperarately wants to join the European Union. They even abolished the death penalty and torture, although probably not entirely history in Turkey,

Regarding the latest opinion polls only (14% of Turkish people are in favor of joining EU)Turkey doesn't quite seem desperate to join EU. If you look at the fact that Turkey is a very dynamic country with great economical potential EU is not the only option.

I strongly support Turkey's stance on the political issues with EU talks,if they want us they should accept this way if not EU can go to hell, we dont care.

As for the death penalty,the given punishments were not being executed since the last 20 years already so although it was in the law it was already abolished in usage years ago.Still I have to admit I enjoy the latest achievements to become a systematic country.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 6):
And what do you call the French position? Did they "bend over backwards" to sell some engines or helis? They didn't, so they "stand for what they believe in", don't they?

On the contrary I see the French stance more like a bell dancer's moves.They bended to every direction to sell their products.They wanted to look pretty to Armenian voters during the elections and also didn't want to loose this very big purchase.They showed their real face and the door slammed on it .Today many French brands are boycotted in Turkey sure they dont bankrupt for this but Turkish people stands against an accusation that they have no relevance.



Widen your world
User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3853 times:

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 5):
I just wanted to say that behaving snotty towards a country that has a significant influence on the prospects of your countries maybe biggest strategic project, is not really a clever idea.

With respect to membership in the EU for the Turks it is wise to remember the words of George Orwell:

All animals are equal, only some are more equal than others.

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 4):
Quoting PADSpot (Reply 2):
Especially given the fact that France is one of the countries that certainly has one of the last words on Turkey's membership in the EU. They are biting the hands that feed them ...

Just shows that Turkey has more backbone that most of the EU and are willing to stand for what they believe in rather than bend over backwards to please the Frogs...
They're not a French colony yet (unlike most of the EU) and seem to like it that way (something I can understand).

This is interesting....are you the last angry man, Jwenting, or is there a certain current of discontent in what we are told is the next best thing to paradise except there ain't 70 virgins in the entire place.

I'd like to hear more...certainly the votes on the currency and ratification of hte constitution are a less than unanimous endorsement.


User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3814 times:

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 9):
All animals are equal, only some are more equal than others.

Although true in many occasions; I would not use that phrase in this context, because there is no equality here. It is not a birthright of Turkey to become a EU-member. When listening to Turkish politicians you sometimes get the impression that some think Turkey had such a right. EU-internally there is equality in the approval process of new members. Under the Treaty of Nice which is in place now and under the new EU Constitution which might be in place in the future the acceptance of Turkish membership requires the unanimous approval of the European Council and majority of votes in the European Parliament. That means that even a small country like Malta could block Turkish membership with its vote in the council.

One can have many reasons to be against Turkish membership, but IMHO the foremost reasons are of an EU-internal origin. The recent growth of EU members has brought lot's EU-internal inequalities - economy-wise and culture-wise. EU-citizens more and more dismiss the EU, because they hardly identify themselves with it anymore. The negative outcome of the French and Dutch referendum on the EU constitution has shown that very impressively. I think the current members should impose an at least 25 year moratorium an new memberships. This is needed to help the existing members grow together and the new members catch up economically. What's the use of an EU that is celebrated by its politicians and dismissed by its citizens? None!


User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7960 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3795 times:

Quoting Wing (Reply 8):
Regarding the latest opinion polls only (14% of Turkish people are in favor of joining EU)Turkey doesn't quite seem desperate to join EU.

Apparently, and as usual, the outcome depends on the poll and it's questions. According to this poll:
http://www.bpb.de/themen/5P5JZF,0,0,..._dem_Blickwinkel_der_T%FCrkei.html (german)
the majority of Turks support a EU-membership.

No poll, however, is required (reading newspapers suffice) to understand that the representatives of the Turks, their government(s) has/have undertaken quite a number of efforts to join the European Union. Efforts I welcome, btw.

Quoting Wing (Reply 8):
If you look at the fact that Turkey is a very dynamic country with great economical potential EU is not the only option.

The only other realistic option would be to stay "single" and thus to maintain the (unwanted) status quo.
"Realistic" insofar as Turkey certainly does not wish to form a Pan-Arabic union with Iraq and Iran as a sibling to the EU.

Quoting Wing (Reply 8):
On the contrary I see the French stance more like a bell dancer's moves

Whatever. You're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to not sharing it.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3789 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 11):
The only other realistic option would be to stay "single" and thus to maintain the (unwanted) status quo. "Realistic" insofar as Turkey certainly does not wish to form a Pan-Arabic union with Iraq and Iran as a sibling to the EU.

I think most realistic is the "Privileged Partnership" that German opposition leader and later chancellor Angela Merkel has proposed. That would include a tariff union, participation in EU's security and foreign policy and some minor subsidies. It excludes any freedom of labor or domicile and participation in the Schengen Treaty as well as agricultural subsidies. Turkish politicians angrily rejected that proposal, but once membership negotiation will have reached a dead end, it will be only thing they can get.

Quoting Wing (Reply 8):
On the contrary I see the French stance more like a bell dancer's moves.They bended to every direction to sell their products.They wanted to look pretty to Armenian voters during the elections and also didn't want to loose this very big purchase.They showed their real face and the door slammed on it .Today many French brands are boycotted in Turkey sure they dont bankrupt for this but Turkish people stands against an accusation that they have no relevance.

French might behave like the Princess and the Pea at times, but the Armenian holocaust is something the Turkish won't get through with. This is not a French singular opinion, they just spoke it out openly. If you have problems with it you should get yourself clear about what "Unity in Diversity" really means. Eventually to have 27 different opinions and despite that making the best out of it.

Quoting Wing (Reply 8):
Regarding the latest opinion polls only (14% of Turkish people are in favor of joining EU)Turkey doesn't quite seem desperate to join EU. If you look at the fact that Turkey is a very dynamic country with great economical potential EU is not the only option.

14%? Great! Well then the only problem would be to communicate that to Turkish politicians? Apparently the haven't heard about that poll. Or just don't care ...

Quoting Wing (Reply 8):
If you look at the fact that Turkey is a very dynamic country with great economical potential EU is not the only option.

I would seriously never doubt that. Really. My reservations are of a different nature. Even though I must second NoUfo here by asking what these alternatives are? Syria, Iraq or Iran?


User currently offlineWing From Turkey, joined Oct 2000, 1573 posts, RR: 24
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 3770 times:

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 12):
14%? Great! Well then the only problem would be to communicate that to Turkish politicians? Apparently the haven't heard about that poll. Or just don't care ...

Well they will in the nearest elections.

First of all European people should understand that Turkey is not begging for EU membership.Yes we are doing our best to comply with EU standards.Infact this is something we should accomplish decades ago and I am sure every Turkish citizen appeciates the impovements in the human rights and improvements in every aspect of daily life to comply with EU standards.

Again I have to repeat that Turkey bids a membership,EU has right to accept it or reject it,thats not a life or death situation for both sides.They both think that they can profit from an allience,if not they can stop negociating anytime.

In the current situation it just turned to a political bribery against Turkey to take some advantages form it.They want us to give up from many things apart from the technical requirements and this creates an unfair feeling among the Turks,thats why the approval rating of the public is different from the government itself which has an official membership bid policy.

The options of Turkey(Arabs,Iran or whatever) is not very important,Turkey is a self sufficient country and not every country in the world is EU member and they live,we are not a member at the moment and we don't lack anything.I don't admire anything that the member countries have and we don't.So we Turks are really not desperate.

Turkish boycott agaist the French is not only a matter of Armenian issue.Today France is one of the leading countries for democracy and they also mentor Turkey for its improvement in democratic issues and at the same time they pass a law in their country to ban every comment not accepting a genocide.A Turkish democratic party leader(Doðu Perinçek) is trialed in court for his words stating that Turks didnt deliberetaly exterminated Armenians to wipe out from the face of the earth but their casulities were a circumstance of a war,therefore denying the genocide.

Talking about democracy and banning Turkey's primary human right of defending himself.Even if you murder someone, the court gives you right to defend yourself .

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 11):
Whatever. You're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to not sharing it.

Thats fair enough.



Widen your world
User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3733 times:

Quoting Wing (Reply 13):
Yes we are doing our best to comply with EU standards.

And that is absolutely credited by the media in Europe. There are still some construction sites left, like the Kurdistan problem and the power of the military, but I am sure you working on it. Finally complying with "EU standards" as you call it is beneficial beyond being being a member of the EU. It's put a lot of pressure on Turkey's neighboring states to the south and to the east.

As I said before resentments of Europeans are not that much about Turkey not complying with our standards. It's 1. "The Bus is full!", 2. "The development gap between the EU and Turkey is still too large." and 3. "Is Turkey in Europe at all?"

Quoting Wing (Reply 13):
Again I have to repeat that Turkey bids a membership,EU has right to accept it or reject it,thats not a life or death situation for both sides.They both think that they can profit from an allience,if not they can stop negociating anytime.

Well, then I don't understand why Ankara reacted almost aggressively when they were proposed the "Privileged Partnership"?

Quoting Wing (Reply 13):
Today France is one of the leading countries for democracy and they also mentor Turkey for its improvement in democratic issues and at the same time they pass a law in their country to ban every comment not accepting a genocide.

No need to flatter the French her. Since Atatürk Turkey has been a lighthouse of democratic development in the Near East/ Muslim world. Turkey did a great job in separating state and religion, but also in integrating the military into its system  Wink. That is being reversed now, as far as I read the news. I think in a couple of years Turkey might also be mature enough to reverse some of Atatürks reforms. About a year ago I talked to some female Turkish students, who had only come to Germany for study, because in German universities they were allowed to wear their headscarf, while in Turkish universities they were not. They had no background in the vast Turkish population that lives in Germany. Maybe reforms overshot the mark here a bit.


User currently offlineWing From Turkey, joined Oct 2000, 1573 posts, RR: 24
Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3733 times:

Back on the actual topic about the A129;

My opinion is, the current A129 is not the best attack helicopter choice in the market especially when you think the first winner of the competiton was the KING COBRA.But after reading the actual agreement it may turn out to be good deal in the long run.

According to the agreement between SSM(Ministery of defence Industry) of Turkey and Agusta,Turkey will upgrade the platform with full glass cockpit,avionics and IR targeting pods designed by ASELSAN,and the engine will be the advanced and more powerful version which was designed for Comanche.This more powerful engine also will allow the new helicopter to carry more weapons and extend its range.Turkish upgrades will make it very suitable to use in the high elevation mountainous terrain of south eastern Turkey and the new model will be actually named as T-129 instead of A129,to apart it from the other variants, Turkey also will earn money if any third part interests in the T-129 and buys it.



Widen your world
User currently offlineCygnusChicago From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 758 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (7 years 5 months 3 hours ago) and read 3374 times:

Quoting TK787 (Thread starter):
The loosing party was Rooivalk of denel, S.Africa, partly due to use of French made engines, and Turkish boycott of France and its policy towards Armenian genocide

Seems a little unlikely that the Rooivalk lost because of boycott of France.

Firstly, The French engines have been in that helicopter for a long, long time. If Turkey had intended to boycott France, why even include the Rooivalk in the final two?

Secondly, South Africa and Turkey are fairly close politically, seems daft to boycott one of your primary allies, who desparately needed that order, just to get on up on the French.

In my opinion, it is more likely that the Rooivalk lost out due to non-NATO standard weapons, than any other reason.

Most importantly, this is pretty much a disaster for Denel. A massive amount of money has been spent on this helicopter, that no one wants to buy. It's turning into South Africa's Concorde  Sad



If you cannot do the math, your opinion means squat!
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