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Uscg Needs Larger Helicopters.  
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29802 posts, RR: 58
Posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4747 times:

I have had this rant for a while but today on the TV I saw footage that confirms one of my suspicions.

The USCG operates helicopters that are too small for the rescue mission, especially those that conducted over cold northern waters.

Growing up on the Alaska coast, the USCG operated two primary helicopters The HH-3 and the HH-52.


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Photo © Willam W. Sierra
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Photo © George Canciani



These are the two helicopters that replaced them, the HH-65 Dolphin and the HH-60J Jayhawk.


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Photo © Shawn Miller
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As you can see their is a pretty decent decrease in cabin space from the HH-52 to the HH-65 and from the HH-3 to the HH60J. And that is where my complaints come in. The lack of cabin space limits the number of surviors you can have on board, the space available to triage, and the ablility to carry equipment to work on the people you hoist.


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This viewpoint of mine was reinforced watching the premier of seaons III of "Deadliest Catch" on Discovery Channel tonight. The second half of the episode was filmed from a USCG Jayhawk conducting S&R work south of the Alaska Pennisula. I thought the footage itself was pretty good because the helo lanched from my old haunt at Cold Bay (I took both the HH-60 and HH-65 photos earlier at this town, I consider it my hometown). Anyway the show ends with one of the four fisherment being winched on-board after 40 minutes in the water, and very hypothermic. The which operate has just started to cut the survival suit off the guy, There is no sign of the rescue swimmer, I assume he is still in the water at this point.


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If the USCG had a large cabin sized helicopter, like a EH-101 Comerant or a S-92, there would be plenty of room for the crew to work on survivors have all the equipment needed for cold water recussitation., and still conduct lifts. It would be able to have enough room that a swimmer, a winch operater, and a medic could be carriered, so hoists could be ongoing while the surviors are being worked on. There is no room for an extra person in a Jayhawk, and no way in hell you could pull that off in a Dolphin, Hell the damm basic is half the size of the chopper.

I call for the USCG procurement genuises to equip the USCG with the proper helicopters for the job.
Lives do depend on it.


OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4745 times:

I dunno, they probably need a mix. Today, I saw a Jayhawk here at San Diego dropping guys onto a cutter via fastrope because it didn't have room to land. I don't know if the Jayhawk is the smallest thing in the area. They were right by NAS North Island, but everything I've seen from the Navy here are Seahawks, so they wouldn't have been able to help. Not sure why they had to get those guys onto that tiny cutter that badly, but they did for some reason.


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineZBBYLW From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1986 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4739 times:

HAHA wow I looks like us Canucks have something right for a change for our military/coast guard vs the USofA. In all seriousness however, I do agree that a big helicopter is needed for some of the more challenging rescues. The shear size of the CH-149 makes it much more capable then what you guys are using. Hopefully the brass will smarten up and amend this problem.


Keep the shinny side up!
User currently offlineFlyUSCG From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 656 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4657 times:

Well I can't speak for all their reasons, but I do know that getting larger helo's isn't always practical. The HH-60 as it is already produces hurricane force winds in a hover. At a certain point, the rotor wash just becomes too great and will hinder the rescue. And then I'm sure economics come into factor. The USCG doing more than most with less than everyone.


Go Trojans! Fight On!
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12158 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4633 times:

There are, and have been larger helo choices for the USCG to use. But, the problem, for the USCG is it is not part of DOD, thus cannot get all the money it needs. The USCG needs a lot of helos, so they budget for smaller, less costly ones. You can but almost 3 HH-60Js for the cost of one (of the new) CH-53Ks the USMC ordered.

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 3):
The USCG doing more than most with less than everyone.

Oh, how I hated that term when I was in the USAF, "doing more with less". That is a political catch phrase left over from the '70s. What everyone forgets about that type of policy, is you rapidly reach a point of deminishing returns. It easily goes into cutting capabilities, instead of waste. The USAF, USN, USMC, nad US Army learned that under the Carter Administration. The USCG needs to learn that now. Perhaps they need to reevaluate the "Deep Water" program and funnel some of that money into buying already proven systems, from cutters to helos.


User currently offlineStevenL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4592 times:

I was talking to a guy in the Coast Guard and he said the HH-65 doesn't have a lot of weight lifting capability.

If they reached there max weight or filled up the cabin space they would have to leave the diver in the water until the Helo went back to base dropped off the rescuees and go back to get the diver. This true?

Also the Jayhawk to my understanding is a fantastic aircraft. Its fairly new and varients of it are used in the USA, USAF, and USN. (Blackhawk, Pavehawk, etc.) Isn't the CAF Comerant an old helo that is no longer in production?


User currently offlineWrenchBender From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 1779 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4520 times:

Quoting StevenL (Reply 5):
Isn't the CAF Comerant an old helo that is no longer in production?

No, first delivery 2002. It is the same A/C chosen to replace the S61 for the Marines Presidential flight. It replaced the early sixties era Labrador and Voyagers (CH46's)

L-188
If the USCG is going to try and stay with a multirole platform capable of going to sea on the cutters, they pretty well have to stay with the Dolphin and Jayhawk or go to a bigger platformed cutter to handle something the size of the CH149/EH(US)101 which BTW is a 35K Lb helo.


WrenchBender



Silly Pilot, Tricks are for kids.......
User currently offlineStevenL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4503 times:

Quoting WrenchBender (Reply 6):
No, first delivery 2002. It is the same A/C chosen to replace the S61 for the Marines Presidential flight. It replaced the early sixties era Labrador and Voyagers (CH46's)

Learn something new everyday.

Quoting WrenchBender (Reply 6):
If the USCG is going to try and stay with a multirole platform capable of going to sea on the cutters, they pretty well have to stay with the Dolphin and Jayhawk or go to a bigger platformed cutter to handle something the size of the CH149/EH(US)101 which BTW is a 35K Lb helo.

But what I stated above, isn't the Dolphin an obsolete aircraft compared to the Jayhawk?


User currently offlineWrenchBender From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 1779 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4492 times:

Yes the Dolphin is a little older design but were bought new in the early eighties for the CG and the Jayhawk came on line mid eighties. I agree the J is the superior A/C, but it is too large for the cutters as currently operating. I have worked blue water ops with the USCG ships and A/C, and the Cutter flight decks are tiny in comparison to ours.

WrenchBender



Silly Pilot, Tricks are for kids.......
User currently offlineFlyUSCG From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 656 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4484 times:

Quoting StevenL (Reply 7):
But what I stated above, isn't the Dolphin an obsolete aircraft compared to the Jayhawk?

I dont think obsolete is the correct word. They can't really be compared to each other as the Daulphin is short-range and the Jayhawk is medium range (I guess the H-3's were long range?). The Jayhawk can do more just because of the nature of it's creation while the Daulphin is more a a civil turned military helo (I think it was initally a civilian design). Plus all of the Daulphins were just upgraded to HH-65C's and based on what I've heard from pilots, it is a "completely different aircraft". It got new more powerful engines, an almost entirely new cockpit and some other things. The HH-60's are also just beginning to go in for conversion to MH-60T's. The major change there will be an all glass cockpit and MUCH better visibility. Go to www.uscg.mil/deepwater for all the info on the HH-65 re-engining and the MH-60T's. The HH-60 is listed under "MRR-Medium Range Recovery" and the HH-65's are listed as "MCH-Multi-mission Cutter Helicopter". Go to the fact sheets on the left side of the homepage for all the Deepwater assets info.



Go Trojans! Fight On!
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29802 posts, RR: 58
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4459 times:

Quoting WrenchBender (Reply 6):
If the USCG is going to try and stay with a multirole platform capable of going to sea on the cutters, they pretty well have to stay with the Dolphin and Jayhawk

Agree completely, Before the 80's the only cutters that had hangers where the Hamiliton Class and the Icebreakers. All the cutters that have followed have pretty much been designed with the dolphin in mind.

I am not sure about the Haley, She might be able to take a Jayhawk, I am pretty sure that all the Bears can't----What an f'ing lemon.

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 3):
The HH-60 as it is already produces hurricane force winds in a hover. At a certain point, the rotor wash just becomes too great and will hinder the rescue.

Legitimate point, I would point out that the USCG, USAF, and CDNCG, have done lifts with much larger helicopters including the CH-53, CH-46, HH-3 and EH-101.

Quoting StevenL (Reply 5):
Also the Jayhawk to my understanding is a fantastic aircraft.

Agreed and I wouldn't be having this concern if the HH-60 had been around to replace the HH-53. But that aircraft didn't happen.

Quoting WrenchBender (Reply 8):
Yes the Dolphin is a little older design but were bought new in the early eighties for the CG and the Jayhawk came on line mid eighties

Jayhawks are acutally a bit newer, they didn't replace the HH-3 up here until the early 1990's.

Just a bit of a side note, the Dolphin was the best of two bad choices at the time, The two helo finalists from what I have been told where the Dolphin and the Bell 222, which was powered by the same lousy engines.

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 9):
Plus all of the Daulphins were just upgraded to HH-65C's and based on what I've heard from pilots, it is a "completely different aircraft". It got new more powerful engines, an almost entirely new cockpit and some other things.

They only had what? 3 of them go down with engine troubles over the years? I think there was a family that made a serious run at sueing the USCG over the deaths of their family crewmembers. They needed to be upgraded 10 years ago, and then they could have the helicopter that they should have had in the first place.

Quoting WrenchBender (Reply 8):
I agree the J is the superior A/C, but it is too large for the cutters as currently operating.

I have a dirty little secret, most of these rescue missions aren't being flown from ships, they are being flown from either Air Station Kodiak or Sitka, or from a forward land based civilian airfield. About the last time I can think of a helo launched from a USCG ship making the news during a rescue was during the Saleydang-Ayu (SPL) wreck-the USCG lost a Jayhawk on that run. It was making runs to the Alex Haley and winching surviors down to her helo deck. The HH-65 from the Haley was also flying in that operation.

So since these missions are being flow from land based fields, I don't think the ability to land on ship is a major consideration in this case.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4339 times:

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 3):
Well I can't speak for all their reasons, but I do know that getting larger helo's isn't always practical. The HH-60 as it is already produces hurricane force winds in a hover. At a certain point, the rotor wash just becomes too great and will hinder the rescue. And then I'm sure economics come into factor. The USCG doing more than most with less than everyone.

Lack of funding is the major hindrance of all Coast Guard capital spending. It's been that way since the 1970's, and it probably was a major driver before then as well.

When you take lack of funding with incompetent leadership, you have a recipe for disaster.

The Bear class cutters are a disgrace. The Coast Guard was given a choice - get the cutter with the capabilities you really need but fewer of them in number versus a less capable cutter in the quantities you want, and the Coast Guard predictably took the latter, leaving them with a cutter that can't operate in the north Pacific or Bering Sea. Really stupid, but that was just one of a long line of stupid procurement/engineering decisions.

Don't want to forget the 1980's midlife rebuild of the the existing High Endurance Cutters. Some really brilliant people said "let's upgrade the weapons systems, the electronics, and the habitability of these cutters, and leave the main engines alone." Which has turned out to be a serious blunder, as there is at least one 378 cutter that hasn't been able to complete a patrol for over 2 years owing to serious problems with the main propulsion plant, and every one of the other 11 cutters has experienced significant problems over the last decade.

Next let's consider the Dauphin and the Falcon. When it was delivered, the crews immediately complained about the lack of power, and shortly thereafter, had to contend with serious corrosion problems because "surprise," the aircraft actually got wet! The CG should have gone to Congress immediately and asked for money to install proper engines on the Falcon, but didn't. The Falcon was so unreliable - again, because of a shortsighted engine choice - that we used to joke that the CG version of the missing man formation was one plane and three empty slots, because most of the Falcon air stations in the 80's were lucky to have one of their birds out four in a operating condition. A/S Sacramento in particular had some notorious hangar queens.

Back to ships. the 110 patrol boat is an amazing cutter, but early on, crews noted that the structural integrity was less than ideal when compared to the 82' and 95' class they replaced. In other words, they simply weren't going to last as long. So what did the mental giants in CGHQ decide to do as part of Deepwater? Cut them in half and add 13 feet! And the result? Every one of the converted cutters have been ordered to remain at the dock until the serious hull fracture problem is solved.

And of course we have the spectacle of the new National Security Cutter being delivered with - oh yes, structural integrity problems! Problems that the Coast Guard engineers noted almost 3 years ago. And the response of the Coast Guard leadership? Let's just keep giving Lockheed Martin more money.

My sources tell me that more Congressional oversight is on the way, and not a moment too soon.

The sad part is, someone ought to be court martialled, but most likely no one will be held accountable.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4):
There are, and have been larger helo choices for the USCG to use. But, the problem, for the USCG is it is not part of DOD, thus cannot get all the money it needs.

True. But the problem is, the Coast Guard rarely asks for the money it needs.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 10):
I am not sure about the Haley, She might be able to take a Jayhawk, I am pretty sure that all the Bears can't----What an f'ing lemon.

See above. You actually have a good idea. We should paint the entire Bear class a pleasing shade of lemon yellow.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 10):
I have a dirty little secret, most of these rescue missions aren't being flown from ships, they are being flown from either Air Station Kodiak or Sitka, or from a forward land based civilian airfield. About the last time I can think of a helo launched from a USCG ship making the news during a rescue was during the Saleydang-Ayu (SPL) wreck-the USCG lost a Jayhawk on that run. It was making runs to the Alex Haley and winching surviors down to her helo deck. The HH-65 from the Haley was also flying in that operation.

So since these missions are being flow from land based fields, I don't think the ability to land on ship is a major consideration in this case.

Bingo. CG helos routinely hopscotch the Aleutians and the Bering Sea from Kodiak.


User currently offline60mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4181 times:

As a Flight Mechanic, I would love to work out of a larger helicopter. The Jayhawk is a fine and sturdy platform. It is difficult to bring a litter in with a patient that is not ambulatory. There have been cases where many people have been brought on board the helo. The record for the Jayhawk is 26 survivors in late 200 or early 2001 (helo from Elizabeth City NC). A lot of the "Old Guard" lament about the H-3's and how much better they were, the 60 and the 65C both do a very good job. The 60 has fairly good legs, back in February I ferried a 60 to Bermuda for a SAR case 200 miles West of Bermuda (800 miles West of Elizabeth City). Within eight hours of the SAR alarm going off the survivors were picked out of the water and on dry land. The Tango model 60 promises to bring new capabilities regarding avionics but most of the remaining systems remain the same. Having looked at the prototype this afternoon, it will be a while before it flies. It is many months behind schedule but I am looking forward to seeing it fly. It promises us new navigation, communication and sensing capabilities in the cabin in addition to what the pilot's have. While it would be nice to have larger helos, what we have are very capable and will serve the Coast Guard for many years.

User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 4172 times:

Quoting 60mech (Reply 12):
It is many months behind schedule but I am looking forward to seeing it fly.

Of course it's late. It's a "Deepwater" project.


User currently offlineMissedApproach From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 713 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 4167 times:

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 3):
The HH-60 as it is already produces hurricane force winds in a hover.

AFAIK, the 'hawk family is known for severe rotor wash. EH-101/Cormorant alleviates this through the use of an advanced rotor design. Suffice to say there is more to the rotor wash problem than just aircraft weight.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 10):
most of these rescue missions aren't being flown from ships

I would think a larger, & more importantly longer ranged helicopter would be a better choice in the far North. Aside from the obvious advantages of rescuing more people, you can also carry more equipment, which offers a lot more mission flexibility.
The Canadian military has always chosen large helicopters for over water operations- most navies still don't fly something as large as a Sea King from something as small as a Frigate. The Canadian Coast Guard...not so much. Their Helicopter fleet numbers 27, composed of BO-105, Bell 206, Bell 212, & S-61N.



Can you hear me now?
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29802 posts, RR: 58
Reply 15, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 4159 times:

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 13):
Of course it's late. It's a "Deepwater" project

No kidding,

I am one that things the USCG has let it's rescue and fisheries enforcement roles go To S#!t since 9/11.

Hell just look what happened at St. Paul this year.

Five boats got caught in the harbor ice, and there is currently no vessel that can handle those conditions.

Sedge and the 180 footers are all retired, they where the ones that where ice strengthened. Hell, the Mackinaw is the only icebreakter that has actually done real work in the last 20 years. The others are just expensive cruise ships for scientists.

Here is a video of the "Top 10 USCG rescue videos" Note how little room there is in the Dolphin in the first video.

<>



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29802 posts, RR: 58
Reply 16, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4150 times:

Here you go, a complete video of the Alaskan Monarch rescue.

Illustrates a time when the USCG had the proper equipment to operate in the ice. The larger HH-3 Pelican, and the Storis.

I think you can see Halls120 waving from the bridge.




OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4113 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 16):
Here you go, a complete video of the Alaskan Monarch rescue.

Illustrates a time when the USCG had the proper equipment to operate in the ice. The larger HH-3 Pelican, and the Storis.

I think you can see Halls120 waving from the bridge.

 blush 


User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4024 times:

I still yet to hear any logical explanation (money doesn't cut it given the USCG mission and the way our government pisses it away anyways) as to why the V-22 Osprey is not ideally suited for the USCG mission? Not the smaller BA609 that I think is too small, but the regular full sized V-22 - if you strategically placed them throughout their speed and range I would think would pay dividends for the mission of the USCG.

The V-22 can perform the role of the C-130 and the new CASA combined with the ability to dip down and actually peform a rescue can it not?

There is an aft hoist that appears to work just fine - combined with the V-22's auto-hover/auto-pilot I don't see a problem there, am I wrong?



http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w2/rdrebers/USCGV22fifty.jpg

[Edited 2007-04-12 01:05:31]

User currently offlineFlyUSCG From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 656 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4015 times:

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 18):
The V-22 can perform the role of the C-130

I really doubt the V-22 has a 13 hour endurance or can carry as much equipment as the C-130 does. I also can't imagine it having an AOR from Alaska, to Hawaii, to Central America (if based at Sacramento).



Go Trojans! Fight On!
User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4000 times:

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 18):
I still yet to hear any logical explanation (money doesn't cut it given the USCG mission and the way our government pisses it away anyways)

Money IS an issue. Not just the acquisition costs, but O&M as well. The simple fact is, the Coast Guard never will have a budget the size necessary to support leading edge - and arguably unproven at this point - technology, which is what the V-22 represents. And the Coast Guard mission would be better served by continued purchases of C-130's instead of the less capable CASA, and the purchase of long range heavy lift helicopters to complement the makeover of of the H-60's and H-65's.

Until the Coast Guard becomes part of DoD - which will never happen - they will be captives of a less well funded department.


User currently offlineMissedApproach From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 713 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3975 times:

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 20):
Money IS an issue.

As a matter of fact, I believe an earlier thread on the CASA aquisition made a point that it was driven in large part by thinly spread budgets, in that C-130's were not affordable-
First Flight Of U.S.C.G. HC-235A (by FlyUSCG Nov 10 2006 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)



Can you hear me now?
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29802 posts, RR: 58
Reply 22, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3969 times:

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 18):
I still yet to hear any logical explanation (money doesn't cut it given the USCG mission and the way our government pisses it away anyways) as to why the V-22 Osprey is not ideally suited for the USCG mission

I think it is ideally suited, I know if I was in the water I would sure as hell prefer the rescue bird to be comming at be a 300kts rather then 140kts.

And to that the USCG's tendency to be somewhat conservative, it took them a good 10 years after the Seahawk entered service before they decided to go ahead an field the Jayhawk.

I can't blame them for not wanting to be on the bleeding edge of technology.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 20):
Until the Coast Guard becomes part of DoD - which will never happen

They would have to give up their law enforcment mission.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 20):
and the purchase of long range heavy lift helicopters to complement the makeover of of the H-60's and H-65's.

Agreed, S-92's with commonality to the Jayhawks would be ideal. EH-101's proably the runner up, although withe the USAF getting those Pave-CH-47's those might not be a bad choice either. They definately want to be attached to somebody else's support network.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 20):
And the Coast Guard mission would be better served by continued purchases of C-130's

I hate to say that I don't think the C-235's are going to be that bad of a choice-FOR THE LOWER 48. But they definately don't have the legs for Alaska.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3960 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 22):
And to that the USCG's tendency to be somewhat conservative, it took them a good 10 years after the Seahawk entered service before they decided to go ahead an field the Jayhawk.

That gap was driven more by the fact that the H-3's were still viable airframes when the Jayhawk entered service, and the more pressing need to replace the wonderful but tired H-52's.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 22):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 20):And the Coast Guard mission would be better served by continued purchases of C-130's
I hate to say that I don't think the C-235's are going to be that bad of a choice-FOR THE LOWER 48. But they definately don't have the legs for Alaska

Nor do they have the legs for the maritime patrol mission in the Eastern Pacific. If we had more MPA today, we'd be seizing more cocaine today.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29802 posts, RR: 58
Reply 24, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3958 times:

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 23):
Nor do they have the legs for the maritime patrol mission in the Eastern Pacific. If we had more MPA today, we'd be seizing more cocaine today.

Agreed, but I don't know if the Herk is the best platform for that sort of patrol. Herks are great aircraft but they are slow and they don't have 360 degree radar coverage.

We put a lot of P-3's out in the desert, those seem to be better platforms for that mission. And they could task out heavy maint, training and spares to the Navy. Shoot, it doesn't matter what branch you are end, every pilot regardless of service learns to fly herks at Little Rock AFB.

But I give them credit for at least buying an aircraft that has a rear ramp for dropping pumps and other supplies.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 23):
That gap was driven more by the fact that the H-3's were still viable airframes when the Jayhawk entered service, and the more pressing need to replace the wonderful but tired H-52's

Too bad they couldn't have sped up the Jayhawk entry to replace the H-52 instead of HH-65.

Seriously without consideration for money, it would be nice to take the remaining Dolphins and go ahead and assign them permentaly to the hangered ships (Hamiltons, Haley, Healy, the Polars and the Bears). Any extra ones just rotate them out of depot, kind of like the Canadians are doing with their Hornets now.

And then a mix of Jayhawks and Cormerants for the heavy duty rescue work.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
25 Halls120 : While the 130's aren't optimal, they are better than nothing. The MPA out there right now is the Nimrod - it has an excellent ability to spot small f
26 FlyUSCG : I dont think a P-3 would make a good C-130 replacement. Perhaps a supplement, but even that would be pushing it. They have no cargo loading door and
27 Halls120 : We are talking about the C-130's ability to perform a P-3 mission, not the other way around.
28 L-188 : I was speaking only of using the Orions on long range drug patrols. You are correct it isn't as flexable as a Herk, and from what I have seen, that r
29 Post contains links DEVILFISH : Update: Lockheed and Northrop just got the boot..... http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...Wn8AAAEAAHsmTY8AAAAB&modele=jdc_34 Quote: "The failures of
30 L-188 : I put up a thread over in non-aviation about the scraping of the 123 foot cutters. Frankly thought I wonder if the critisims of the LM/Northrop compan
31 Bingo : The Washington Post has had a field day tearing up Deepwater and it's leadership. Search the Post's site for some of the stories...good reading...
32 60Mech : Correcting my earlier post, I meant that the survivors were 200 miles East of Bermuda. Whether or not the Tango model has been delayed due to Deepwate
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