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Israel In Talks With USA Over F-22 Orders  
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 4 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 17773 times:

Israel has approached the USA about acquiring Lockheed Martin F-22s as concern mounts about new threats to the country’s regional air superiority.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...lks-with-usa-over-f-22-orders.html

I think Russia soo far did not export SU34/35 mig29M to the Middle east, but who knows what happening in the back ground, oil dollars are available. The same thing might happen in the Far East. between Japan, India and China..

http://www.ausairpower.net/000-B004-ESA-Su-32FN-1S.jpg

92 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (7 years 4 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 17769 times:

Wouldn't it be a double standard if the US deny F-22 sales to Australia, but allows them to Israel. In the end Australia is a far safer place in terms of un-wanted technology transfer than the middle east. Or is it just that Australia has not enought lobby in congress, which Israel indisputably has ... ?

User currently offlinePtrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3925 posts, RR: 19
Reply 2, posted (7 years 4 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 17745 times:

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 1):
Wouldn't it be a double standard if the US deny F-22 sales to Australia, but allows them to Israel. In the end Australia is a far safer place in terms of un-wanted technology transfer than the middle east.

True... But then I don't think the US is really denying a F-22 sale to Australia? Given Australia's staunch support of US policies, that would be a really strange decision... especially as Australia might actually pay for the aicraft itself

Peter



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineStealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5689 posts, RR: 44
Reply 3, posted (7 years 4 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 17731 times:
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Why would they bother selling to Isreal?
Wouldn't it be more efficient to fly them directly to China?

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 1):
Wouldn't it be a double standard if the US deny F-22 sales to Australia,

Of monumental proportions. It would be a gigantic slap on the face and one that I am positive the Australian Govt or people would not take lightly.

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 1):
Or is it just that Australia has not enought lobby in congress, which Israel indisputably has ... ?

That would be the key!,



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineStealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5689 posts, RR: 44
Reply 4, posted (7 years 4 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 17727 times:
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Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 2):
True... But then I don't think the US is really denying a F-22 sale to Australia?

Peter, despite our staunch support they did officially deny the sale of Raptors to Australia.



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineDeltaDC9 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 2844 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (7 years 4 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 17709 times:

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 4):
Peter, despite our staunch support they did officially deny the sale of Raptors to Australia.

Not completely true, the current position of the US Government is:

"Regarding the F-22, our current position is that the airplane will not be made available to foreign military sales"

Which was the exact response to Austria, and not specific to Australia by The US Deputy Defence Secretary, Gordon England.

The position is an all or nothing, black and white stand for all allies. If that position changes it will be for ALL our closest allies, I will bet money on that.



Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 6, posted (7 years 4 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 17669 times:

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 1):
Wouldn't it be a double standard if the US deny F-22 sales to Australia, but allows them to Israel.

Yes, but such considerations go out the window with all things Israel.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 3):
Why would they bother selling to Isreal?
Wouldn't it be more efficient to fly them directly to China?

Many of us have noted this in the past. Of course the answer is Yes.

Frankly, given the absolute rancor in the Congress at the moment, I can't see it happening. After the next round of elections, who knows?

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 4):
Peter, despite our staunch support they did officially deny the sale of Raptors to Australia.

Did the Howard government officially request the F-22? I know there is a very vocal minority in Australia lobbying for this aircraft, but AFAIK the Australian government hasn't officially requested. Do you have information indicating that it has?



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineStealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5689 posts, RR: 44
Reply 7, posted (7 years 4 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 17645 times:
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Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 5):
Which was the exact response to Austria, and not specific to Australia by The US Deputy Defence Secretary, Gordon England.

14-02-2007 - Australia -- The US Deputy Defence Secretary, Gordon England, has written to Defence Minister Brendan Nelson saying the US will not export the world's most deadly warplane - the F-22 Raptor - to Australia. The US statement ends a growing debate among defence experts about which plane should replace the RAAF's ageing F-111 strike bombers and form the front line of the nation's future air force.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 6):
Did the Howard government officially request the F-22? I know there is a very vocal minority in Australia lobbying for this aircraft, but AFAIK the Australian government hasn't officially requested. Do you have information indicating that it has?

Funnily enough, rather than requesting the F-22 there is some suggestion that some in the government used "back channels" to get the US to refuse sales so as to defuse the "vocal minority" that wanted the Raptor.
Personally, at the price, I don't think it would be viable for the RAAF. Nice to have the best there is, but hardly useful if you can't afford enough to have a viable force.
Kind of interesting how there are some that think that replacing the worlds best strike/attack aircraft(likely the best ever)with an air supremacy fighter makes sense!



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlinePope From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 4 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 17634 times:

Directed principally to our Australian members but I would welcome's anyone's comment on the matter -

Pardon my ignorance but who or what does Australia consider its biggest potential military threat? Obviously a country has a need to defend itself against all possible agression but whom specifically, if anyone, does Australia gear its military to fight against?

Thanks,

Mike


User currently offlinePtrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3925 posts, RR: 19
Reply 9, posted (7 years 4 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 17616 times:

Quoting Pope (Reply 8):
whom specifically, if anyone, does Australia gear its military to fight against?

Good question, but the unlikeliness of Australian F-22s ever getting close to a war zone (since the Taliban don't have an air force) makes the reported US refusal to sell them for good money even more amazing to me. That's xenophobia. The attitude that the F-22's secrets would be any less safe in Australia than in the hands of the likes of Lt Col Ollie North...  Wow!

Peter



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30877 posts, RR: 86
Reply 10, posted (7 years 4 months 5 days ago) and read 17590 times:
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Quoting Pope (Reply 8):
Pardon my ignorance but who or what does Australia consider its biggest potential military threat? Obviously a country has a need to defend itself against all possible agression but whom specifically, if anyone, does Australia gear its military to fight against?

Pure speculation on my part, but should China makes a play for the Spratly Islands (for their oil), Australia could conceivably be drawn into a regional conflict in support of the "allies" [US, Taiwan, the Phillipines, perhaps even Vietnam] as a forward base.

Also, Australia and Indonesia have had their ups and downs in relations, so if Al-Qaeda's operations in Indonesia bear fruit, Australia might feel the need to take action.


User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 38
Reply 11, posted (7 years 4 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 17573 times:

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
I think Russia soo far did not export SU34/35 mig29M to the Middle east, but who knows what happening in the back ground, oil dollars are available.

No, but Saudi Arabia is buying Eurofighters.

Israel has successfully lobbied against sales of fighters to SA in the past I believe.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineBeta From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 295 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 4 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 17563 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 10):
Pure speculation on my part, but should China makes a play for the Spratly Islands (for their oil), Australia could conceivably be drawn into a regional conflict in support of the "allies" [US, Taiwan, the Phillipines, perhaps even Vietnam] as a forward base.

No conceivable scenario in which Australia gets invloved in Spratly Island dispute. It's difficult to imagine even the US gets involved militarily, let alone Australia.
Back to topic, there is no country in the ME could challenge the Isreali Airforce dominance in the air in any serious way. Lebanon? Syria? Iran? Saudi Arabia? Egypt? I think not. I know Saudi Arabia is buying the Typhoon, but historically The Saudis have never proven to be able uitilize their fancy weapon systems to their fullest potential due to shortfall in training, maintenance, poor tactics and the political nature of the regime. Air dominance as someone mentioned involved more training and tactics than just the airplane itself. Besides there is a huge USAF presence in the ME theater. No need for Isreal to operate the F22. I think the argument of qualitative military edge is just a negotiation tactic to lobby for Isreali Aircraft Industry to participate in avionics, and weaponry development for the F22. However, I could be wrong and ready to hear discussion.

[Edited 2007-04-20 20:36:43]

User currently offlineDeltaDC9 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 2844 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (7 years 4 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 17548 times:

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 7):
14-02-2007 - Australia -- The US Deputy Defence Secretary, Gordon England, has written to Defence Minister Brendan Nelson saying the US will not export the world's most deadly warplane - the F-22 Raptor - to Australia. The US statement ends a growing debate among defence experts about which plane should replace the RAAF's ageing F-111 strike bombers and form the front line of the nation's future air force.

You simply do not get it, Congress and the Pentegon have not agreed to export it PERIOD. It has nothing to do with Austrailia.

The quote below is what was said. No exports period untill an agreement is reached INTERNALLY in DC.

You seem to think that if you asked GM to sell you a Camaro and they said "no, we are not even making them" that they singled YOU out. Wrong, no Camaros for anyone, and no F-22s either until we can internally come to an agreement.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 5):
"Regarding the F-22, our current position is that the airplane will not be made available to foreign military sales"

Austrailia was never singled out, that is in your head. This may change in the future, it may not. If it does, South Korea, Japan, Israel, and others like Austrailia will be reevaluated of those countries are still interested.



Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 14, posted (7 years 4 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 17516 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 6):
Did the Howard government officially request the F-22? I know there is a very vocal minority in Australia lobbying for this aircraft, but AFAIK the Australian government hasn't officially requested. Do you have information indicating that it has?



Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 13):
You simply do not get it, Congress and the Pentegon have not agreed to export it PERIOD. It has nothing to do with Austrailia.



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 7):
Funnily enough, rather than requesting the F-22 there is some suggestion that some in the government used "back channels" to get the US to refuse sales so as to defuse the "vocal minority" that wanted the Raptor.

I'm going to conclude from all of this that there was never an official request by Australia to purchase the Raptor. So why the indignation?

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 9):
Good question, but the unlikeliness of Australian F-22s ever getting close to a war zone (since the Taliban don't have an air force) makes the reported US refusal to sell them for good money even more amazing to me. That's xenophobia. The attitude that the F-22's secrets would be any less safe in Australia than in the hands of the likes of Lt Col Ollie North... Wow!



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineDeltaDC9 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 2844 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (7 years 4 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 17489 times:

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 9):
makes the reported US refusal to sell them for good money even more amazing to me. That's xenophobia. The attitude that the F-22's secrets would be any less safe in Australia than in the hands of the likes of Lt Col Ollie North...

Why is everyone making this SO complicated?

To export military equipment, the US government must come to an agreement internally to export it, and under what conditions. Until the yes position is agreed upon, then the answer is no due to the laws that cover this sort of thing.

If you remember, in the past we have taken a while to make these decisions, and this is no different. We have exported fighters with less capability than the corresponding USAF and Navy models, and recently more capability. The fact that South Korea has more advanced F-15s than the USAF has some people pissed off, and caused many to take a closer look with regards to the F-22 and F-35.

The F-35 was a victim of this internal rift in DC, which almost led to several partners throwing in the towel. Anyone familiar with the internal battle compares it to a divorce/child custody war.

This has nothing to do with the relationship with one of, or any of our greatest allies, it is simply against US policy to export this plane at this time, to anyone.



Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 4 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 17490 times:

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 11):
Israel has successfully lobbied against sales of fighters to SA in the past I believe.

Still they got F15s yrs ago.

What about the sale of Su-30 fighter jets and S-300V anti-aircraft ballistic missiles to Syria and Iran? Rumours are non MKI SU-30 versions were confortable with F15s in recent execises.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/39/F-15_Su30_Mir2000.jpg/744px-F-15_Su30_Mir2000.jpg


User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 4 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 17482 times:

It would be logical that we are selling to Israel because of their powerful lobby, AIPAC which has a heavy influence in our country (To put it lightly)


BTW: Should I mysteriously vanish, get a heart-attack, mysteriously get cancer, or some incurable disease, commit suicide, or end up arrestted on bogus, trumped up charges-- you know who to blame

Andrea Kent


User currently offlineTeamAmerica From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 1761 posts, RR: 23
Reply 18, posted (7 years 4 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 17482 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 6):
Yes, but such considerations go out the window with all things Israel.

Really? Is there a case where the US exported equipment to Israel that was denied to everyone else?

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 9):
The attitude that the F-22's secrets would be any less safe in Australia than in the hands of the likes of Lt Col Ollie North...

 confused You may need to re-read your history. Ollie North was involved in some bizarre activities, but he did not give away any secrets.



Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
User currently offlineDeltaDC9 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 2844 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (7 years 4 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 17473 times:

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 18):
Is there a case where the US exported equipment to Israel that was denied to everyone else?

In a way. For example, we used to strip down the export models of fighter jets for most countries, but Israel got theirs with all the bells and whistles the USAF had.

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 18):
You may need to re-read your history. Ollie North was involved in some bizarre activities, but he did not give away any secrets.

I did not even want to ask...

Never saw what the big deal was. We had been doing that stuff for decades, and still do.



Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
User currently offlineChecksixx From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1088 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 4 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 17460 times:

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 19):
In a way. For example, we used to strip down the export models of fighter jets for most countries, but Israel got theirs with all the bells and whistles the USAF had.

No not really...all the advanced stuff was Israeli specific, no secret about that...Check


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 4 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 17453 times:

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 19):
For example, we used to strip down the export models of fighter jets for most countries, but Israel got theirs with all the bells and whistles the USAF had.

Both the Russians and US used to do that, keeping the best for themselves (mostly in term of radars, missiles and ECM equipment). Even for the Israelis sometimes, who upgraded them themselves..

I think with Iran an dother countries seen as a thread and some of those countries buying high tech equipment the situation could get uncomfortable.

(Equivalent)
Radar Cross Section F22: 0.0001m^2,
F15 RCS ~7-8 m^2.

RCS_dBSM.gif" width="567" height="514" border=0>
Su30 radar dectation range. RCS.htm" target=_blank>http://www.f22totalairwar.de/F-22_To...tealth_Radar_Cross_Section_RCS.htm
For modern SA radars (like the S-300V) this is a little different (more powerfull) but you get the picture.

The Su-30 MKI active radar detects the F-22 at like 7.5 nm, an F15 at about 100nm.

For close air combat the current NATO doctrine tactic for encountering Mig29´s & Su Flankers is to avoid engagements unless there are clear tactical advantages.

So if significant numbers of Su-30Mki enter the middle east, there is possibly a new situation for Israel; having the second best fighter.



User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (7 years 4 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 17428 times:

Keesje, could you check out the link? I couldn't get it to work. Very intriguing data.


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 4 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 17418 times:

Something went wrong, here you are

http://www.f22totalairwar.de/F-22_To...tealth_Radar_Cross_Section_RCS.htm


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12134 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (7 years 4 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 17400 times:

The US really needs to sell the F-22 to Australia, Isreal, and Japan.

25 Ptrjong : Okay, of course the US has every right not to sell a weapon system if it doesn't like to. And I don't really think Australia would fork out the money
26 Beta : Why would the US "really needs" to sell the F-22 to Australia and Isreal? I can understand it makes sense for Japan given its proximity and need for
27 Post contains links StealthZ : Gentlemen, you ascribe to me much more indignation than I actually feel. DeltaDC9, the release I saw of Asst Sec. England's communication was address
28 Post contains links Echster : F-22 Attractive To Japan As Missile Threats Grow "I'm aware the Japanese are interested in the F-22," Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of
29 Lumberton : Thanks for fixing the link, but what exactly is this site? It looks like one of the "war game" sites.
30 Post contains links DEVILFISH : Did Israel decide that they no longer want or need 100 F-35As? ..... Israel Wants 100 F-35A And 24 F-22A... (by AirRyan Jun 30 2006 in Military Aviati
31 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Japan, yes. Australia, yes. Israel...F*#k no. Easy question. Don't sell to nations that sell our Tech to our enemies. F-22 is our toy and we don't hav
32 TheSonntag : Actually I think it is not unlikely that they might order the Eurofighter. Germany always had a policy of delivering high-tech equipment to Israel, l
33 Ptrjong : Israel hasn't bought a European warplane in 40 years (Mirage 5, embargoed by France)
34 LMP737 : It was twenty years ago that Toshiba sold milling equipment to the USSR. The equipment was used to make quieter propellers for the Soviet sub fleet.
35 Post contains images MCIGuy : The government reinstated the FMS ban last summer and AFAIK, have no plans to repeal it soon. As of now, Israel will not and should not get Raptors. I
36 Stitch : At 7.5nm, the Su-30 would already be about to be snuffed by a Sidewinder/ASRAAM, assuming it was not already downed by an AMRAAM tens of nautical mil
37 Post contains links and images Keesje : A su30 can track & fire on a F15I from 100nm. For Awacs like targets something is under devlopment with India (Novator KS-172). Standard AA are R-77/
38 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Toshiba isn't an American company beholden to Washington DC and our nation's national security. Lockheed Martin is. America did not sell milling equi
39 LMP737 : Are you saying that if the equipment was ingeniously produced by Israel then it would be okay? When comes right down to it it's irrelevant who produc
40 Post contains images Ptrjong : I think the US government should be extremely upset about Israel selling its technology to a third power... But I can't believe my eyes here... If I'
41 LMP737 : No I'm not dismissing it on just military reasons alone. The thought of attacking another country over something like this makes no sense to me.
42 Atmx2000 : Given that the US bears significant material responsibility for Japan's defense, anything that they do that jeopardises us and our military forces ma
43 Post contains images Confuscius : It was twenty years ago that Toshiba sold milling equipment to the USSR. The equipment was used to make quieter propellers for the Soviet sub fleet. B
44 SCAT15F : I thought Australia already decided on the F-18E/F as the F-111 replacement?
45 Post contains images Ptrjong : Glad to hear
46 StealthZ : Well the JSF is actually the planned F-111(& F/A18A-B) replacement but we have ordered 24 F/A-81F as an "interim" solution to cover any potential del
47 Post contains links Lumberton : Reuters is reporting that the Japanese are considering the F-22. http://yahoo.reuters.com/news/articl...2-37_T328235&type=comktNews&rpc=44 Hopefully,
48 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Toshiba didn't "stab us in the back". It's their technology, they can do with it as they please. No, but I do believe Israel should respect it's only
49 Blackbird : Boeing4Ever, You don't get it. We don't have a choice in selling our technology to Israel. If the US refused, they would start with character assasina
50 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Very funny. I was the one accused of being that nut. In the end we're talking a nation that survives souly on our support vs. the world's only curren
51 RJpieces : All I can say is "hahaha."
52 LMP737 : If it was there's to do as they pleased then why did the Prime Minister of Japan at the time say that Toshiba betrayed Japan? Why were two Toshiba ex
53 DeltaDC9 : So now Israel can take on the US? What next? Panama? Wow. They do not have anywhere near the technology we have across the board. Some areas are comp
54 Fridgmus : All of you, Israel whacking our politicians: Not going to happen. Direct Military Action against Israel: Not going to happen. As stated earlier in thi
55 Blackbird : Solely on our support being the key word... and I think they'd be willing to do anything to keep it. Andrea Kent
56 Fridgmus : Andrea, If they tried assassination, we would find out who did it, and Israel knows we would. Those geniuses at the FBI Crime Lab are the best at wha
57 DeltaDC9 : It absolutely was a breech of US national security, Japanese national security, and of Japanese corporate ethics. It is my theory that this event, al
58 Atmx2000 : No, its milling equipment whose export to the USSR was prohibited by Japanese law because it could be used to manufacture high tech weaponry. The com
59 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Then it's Japan's problem. It was not our technology being sold off. Toshiba did wrong, but considering it'll be the Chinese Air Force and not rust-b
60 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Still a Japanese problem. Israel gave the Chinese a fighter plane with technology we developed and sold to them. B4e-Forever New Frontiers
61 LMP737 : Sorry it was not just Japan's problem as you seem to think. It was also our problem because it was our Navy that would have to find these subs. So st
62 Post contains images Boeing4ever : The point you constantly missed is that we gave Israel support and technology which Israel sold right to our enemy. Japan didn't do this. They had a
63 Atmx2000 : Japan didn't take it seriously enough until a lot of noise was made in the US. The truth of the matter is that more than a few Japanese companies eag
64 LMP737 : And you consitently miss the point that its irrelvant whether it was the Japanese government or a Japanese company that sold the equipment. The damag
65 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Until that's verified though, it's still a Japanese company breaking Japanese law. US tech and funds. And don't start on Pakistan...there's another c
66 Blackbird : You don't know the Israeli's very well. They use the holocaust to justify everything they do! Andrea Kent BTW: Should I vanish, get a mysterious illn
67 Atmx2000 : The sale was in violation of Japan's obligations under the CoCom treaty that established a means of embargoing sales of weapons and dual-use products
68 Blackbird : For the most part, the "should I die you know who to blame" is largely meant as a joke. Andrea Kent
69 Zkpilot : Most directly - Indonesia (although the F-22 would hardly be needed against them when any current gen F-16 / F/A-18 / F-15 etc would be superior. Pri
70 Post contains images Boeing4ever : Very well, now how does this reduce what Israel has done. So far, I have yet to see the JASDF selling F-2's or F-15J's to the highest bidder. One, I'
71 KevinSmith : I have some trouble with the information in the link provided. It is from a website about a F-22 video game. Keesje do you know where the web site go
72 Post contains links Keesje : They seem rougly consistent wit other sources. http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/electronics/q0168.shtml http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairfo/
73 KevinSmith : Lots of 90 degree angles.
74 Drewfly : Getting a bit off the aviation track here, but I was talking the other day with my friend's father, he is USN-ret and spent 20 years on subs. I am doi
75 Keesje : Isn´t the Toshiba story a traditional cold war myth. For decades anything the Russian made was bad or copied. A bullet prove patriotic vision. The id
76 Post contains images Ptrjong : It's obvious why the F-22 would be denied to the Israelis, but it's equally obvious to me why they want the very best stuff. They are the ones who ha
77 Atmx2000 : Why would they need to buy the equipment then? And why would Toshiba go through extensive efforts to hide the sale? And those milling machines are co
78 Post contains links LMP737 : No Keesje it is not a myth, < http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...9B0DE0DD163CF936A25754C0A961948260 >
79 Lumberton : No, it's not.
80 DeltaDC9 : This is total BS. The entire US military industrial complex would have collapsed if that was true, Congress would never have approved the massive Col
81 Post contains images Baroque : Not the Spratly Is but Chinese ambitions stretch even further S to Natuna and Indonesia would call for help if the Natuna group was threatened. The S
82 Post contains images Ptrjong : I just want to remark here that at least early in the Cold War - when the Russians were still building their strategic forces - the USAF, in it entho
83 Post contains links Keesje : Sounds like this Toshiba / Subs story is more then facts, snifs like opportunitic politics, somebody digging up a 25 yr old story, desperate for prot
84 LMP737 : If you go back to post 34 you will see that I'm the one who first brought up the milling equipment. You can also see that I did not bring it up for u
85 Checksixx : There is no ban specific only to the Raptor. It falls under the Arms Exportation Act. Check
86 StealthZ : No they don't but they do make the manufacture of them a more practical proposition. I was working for a US technology company (in Australia) at that
87 USAF336TFS : "Because of U.S. laws, we cannot know the specific capabilities of the F-22," Japanese Defense Minister Kyuma said. The Obey amendment, tacked onto th
88 Checksixx : Yeah, I was waiting for someone to bring up Obey...its not there anymore. Everything falls under Arms Export Control which was cinched tight by the Cl
89 Post contains links USAF336TFS : Well I read that quote in Defense News this morning, (3/05/07). The article is dated yesterday, 3/02/07. http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=272954
90 Checksixx : That article is a little misleading...not to mention that one thing doesn't have a thing to do with the other. Asking for classified information has n
91 Checksixx : H.R.5631 Department of Defense Appropriations Act, 2007 SEC. 8062. None of the funds made available in this Act may be used to approve or license the
92 Post contains images Fumanchewd : This is great stuff! I was thinking that you should be in a sitcom, but then I remembered that you already were! Seriously, I have no idea where the
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