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Indian Navy Carrier Delayed--Wiring Problems!  
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 20715 times:

This is from Kieran Daly's blog on Flight.
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...nd-you-thought-the-airbus-a38.html

Quote:
And you thought the Airbus A380 wiring was bad...

A comforting story for the poor guys at Airbus in Hamburg who found the A380 wiring coming up a metre or so short. Things could be much worse - as the Indian Navy has reportedly just been told by the folks refitting the Russian aircraft carrier Gorshokov for sale to them.
Seems the engineers underestimated the quantity of wiring required by about, oh, 70% or so. Result - a two year delay and 10% cost hike. India, unsurprisingly, is "sending a senior officer to Moscow to assess the situation".

Here's the link to the article:
http://www.india-defence.com/reports/3084


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
82 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBarfBag From India, joined Mar 2001, 2207 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 20648 times:

The Indian Navy already issued a press release rubbishing the original unsubstantiated report.


India, cricket junior and senior world champions
User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11446 posts, RR: 76
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 20474 times:
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Yeah...but there's some smoke here....what's the real story?

I don't believe the initial rubbishing any more completely than I believe the massive error reported in the initial trashing.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineBarfBag From India, joined Mar 2001, 2207 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 20461 times:

Oh, the delivery of the carrier has slipped a few months, as the Navy release itself acknowledged in its rebuttal. They claim late 2008 instead of mid 2008 for delivery now. But the notion of wiring gone so drastically wrong is just bizarre. Its not like the Russians don't know how to fix a ship, or that the Indian Navy doesn't know enough about carriers to direct specific refits; we've been operating them continuously for 46 years, since we acquired the INS Vikrant in 1961.


India, cricket junior and senior world champions
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (6 years 12 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 19916 times:

Back in the news! This article in today's Flight Global says 2011.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...y-grounds-indian-mig-fighters.html

Quote:
India is unlikely to take delivery of the refitted Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov until 2011, three years after the due delivery date.
Russian shipbuilder Sevmash admitted on 1 August, that India was unlikely to take delivery of the refitted aircraft carrier, adding that director general Vladimir Pastukhov has been fired over the handling of the refit contract.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 5, posted (6 years 12 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 19835 times:

Another Three years when Everyone was thinking 2008.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 6, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 19314 times:

Defense Industry Daily has provided an update. Note the use of "commitment trap".
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...t-delay-cost-increases-03283/#more

Quote:
Nov 6/07: A top-level Indian Navy delegation is heading for Moscow to discuss the delay and price escalation in the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier deal. A detailed financial and technical plan outlining the specific justifications and amounts will be presented to the Indian side, who is there to listen rather than to negotiate.

The report pegs the original price quoted for refurbishing the carrier was just under $980 million, adding that the Russians are insisting on cost increases of at least $350 million. Indian officials reportedly fear that the final escalation may end up being much more once they are deep enough into the commitment trap of having paid for work. The report also adds that the Navy "had reconciled itself to the fact that the delivery of the ship would be delayed from the original deadline of August 2008 by a few years," a surprising development given the limited service life of India's remaining carrier. If the government is indeed prioritizing cost containment over delivery dates, reconciliation of the INS Viraat's service life with Gorshkov's entry may prove difficult. IDRW.

So the Indian side is going to Moscow to "listen, rather than negotiate"? I suspect they will not like what they hear.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12339 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 19226 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 6):
Note the use of "commitment trap".

Kind of reminds one of the ex-USSR work on the International Space Station.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineMichlis From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 737 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 19211 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
Kind of reminds one of the ex-USSR work on the International Space Station.

Agreed. 'Show me the money...so I can spend it on other things except what it was intended for.'



If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the outcome of a hundred battles.
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 9, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 19064 times:

Des the Indian Navy have another Option on hand or only the Russian one.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineF27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 19042 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
Kind of reminds one of the ex-USSR work on the International Space Station.

just mind that the Russians actually saved the whole ISS when the shuttle got grounded. Also the US MADE them ditch the MIR spacestation.


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 19038 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 9):
Des the Indian Navy have another Option on hand or only the Russian one.
regds

They could start from scratch and order on elsewhere, or try to build it themselves. However, they most likely would say good bye to all the money paid to date. I don't see the Indian Navy with many good options here.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13968 posts, RR: 63
Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 19035 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 11):
Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 9):
Des the Indian Navy have another Option on hand or only the Russian one.
regds

They could start from scratch and order on elsewhere, or try to build it themselves. However, they most likely would say good bye to all the money paid to date. I don't see the Indian Navy with many good options here.

What about taking the ship as it is and finishing it in an Indian ship yard? After all India has good engineers as well.

Jan


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 19033 times:

Does India actually hold title (i.e., own) to the ship at this point? If not, the Russians would most likely demand they pay through the nose. If that were the case, they might want to order one of the new Brit/French CVs.


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4777 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 19021 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 13):
If that were the case, they might want to order one of the new Brit/French CVs.

Swallow the bitter pill you warned of?.....

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 11):
However, they most likely would say good bye to all the money paid to date.

That might spell the end of a lot of political and military carreers, not to mention those quietly working on the sidelines.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineMichlis From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 737 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 18949 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 12):
What about taking the ship as it is and finishing it in an Indian ship yard?

Or perhaps drive it onto the beaches of Alang.  stirthepot 



If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the outcome of a hundred battles.
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 16, posted (6 years 7 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 18626 times:

Update. If this is what the Indian Navy is saying in public, they must be extraordinarily unhappy behind the scenes. I thought there was a "special relationship" between the Indian armed forces and the Russians?
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=3224309&C=asiapac

Quote:
he strain in Indo-Russian defense ties is showing, and the delay in Russia’s delivery of the aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov could make India “ponder where our defense relations are going” with Moscow, the Indian Navy chief, Adm. Sureesh Mehta, said Dec. 3 during an annual Navy Day news conference here.
In a standoff that began early this year, Moscow is demanding price escalations on several deals with India, some still under negotiation and some agreed upon years ago.
Russia had sought a $650 million increase for the refit of the Admiral Gorshkov, a retired Russian Navy carrier, Indian Defence Ministry sources said.
“We have paid more than $400 million for the carrier and we own it now,” Mehta said. “The government should not get into price renegotiations. We expect that the fixed-price contract [under which the deal was negotiated] should be honored by the Russian government.”




"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 17, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 18481 times:



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 16):
a "special relationship" between the Indian armed forces and the Russians

Is this related to the Growing proximity of India to the US.If so sounds childish.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 18448 times:



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 17):
Is this related to the Growing proximity of India to the US.If so sounds childish.

Huh? It's a simple fact that the Indian Navy has sourced a great deal of their equipment from Russia. Nothing more, nothing less.  Yeah sure



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineTugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5419 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 18418 times:

Two things have happened here:
1. The price of copper has skyrocketed over the last few years so what was budgeted for wiring for the refit is now substantially deficient. Over the last 6 years the price of copper has gone from 60 cents a pound in 2001 to about $3.50 today.

2. Theft. A lot of it. Since the price has gone up copper thefts have increased and though I don't how much has been stolen in this instance it has been a major issue for many construction projects. So a lot of what was ordered or on hand, if it wasn't properly supervised, has found its way into to other hands.

Tug



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 18161 times:

Interesting comments on the carrier deal with Russia.
http://www.upi.com/International_Sec...alysis_indias_defense_sector/6269/

Quote:
By KRISHNADEV CALAMUR
UPI International Security Editor
Indian minister chides navy chief over Russia remarks

India's defense minister has chided the navy chief over suggestions that the country should take another look at its defense ties with Russia.

"The relationship with Russia is a time-tested one," Defense Minister A.K. Antony said. "Problems will be overcome."

The comments, which were reported by the private IBS news channel, came following comments by navy chief Adm. Sureesh Mehta.

In comments last week, Mehta said Russia should honor the contract it signed for the aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov. Russia is seeking more money from India to refurbish the vessel.

"It is a fixed price contract and they should honor it," Mehta said.

He also ruled out withdrawing from the deal, despite some suggestions to do just that, because India has already paid $500 million for the vessel. But it is his remarks on defense ties with Moscow that got the most scrutiny.

"Where is our relationship with Russia going?" he said, noting the deal was signed when Russia needed it the most.

"They said give us work. I would like to believe we helped them in their time of need."




"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 21, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 17963 times:



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 18):
Huh? It's a simple fact that the Indian Navy has sourced a great deal of their equipment from Russia. Nothing more, nothing less.

The recent events Smell of a Growing Annoyance by the Russians towards the India US proximity.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13968 posts, RR: 63
Reply 22, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 17894 times:

What about India buying the USS Kitty Hawk? This conventionally powered aircraft carrier is going to be decomissioned soon.

Jan


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 23, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 17886 times:



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 22):
What about India buying the USS Kitty Hawk? This conventionally powered aircraft carrier is going to be decomissioned soon.

Then that would be a first. No U.S. carrier of post-WWII construction has been sold to another country. I can safely say this also: the U.S. Navy extracts every ounce of service out of these ships, so if one were sold, it would require at least as extensive (and expensive) a refit as the Russian ship,maybe more.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13968 posts, RR: 63
Reply 24, posted (6 years 7 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 17874 times:



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 23):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 22):
What about India buying the USS Kitty Hawk? This conventionally powered aircraft carrier is going to be decomissioned soon.

Then that would be a first. No U.S. carrier of post-WWII construction has been sold to another country. I can safely say this also: the U.S. Navy extracts every ounce of service out of these ships, so if one were sold, it would require at least as extensive (and expensive) a refit as the Russian ship,maybe more.

But I doubt that the US would push the price up, like the Russians do. And, with the current proximity between India and the US, it might be politically wise, like having another friend there, especially with the Chinese opening deep water ports (superficially for commercial shipping, but can be used for military purposes) in Sri Lanka and Pakistan.

Jan


25 Halls120 : Lumberton is correct - India is better off with a Russian hull than an old tired US aircraft carrier. By was of comparison, the USS Independence (dec
26 DfwRevolution : Saved it from what? Burning up in the atmosphere? I don't think so. It would have been no major trouble to leave the station in a dormant state for a
27 HAWK21M : any purchase would require Retrfit & upgrades to the latest standards which will cost $$$. regds MEL
28 Post contains links Lumberton : Update from Defense Industry Daily and some speculation that the Russians may (repeat "may", nothing confirmed) link the ship's completion to other de
29 A342 : Yes, they did exactly that. The ISS needs regular fuel supplies in order to stay in its orbit.
30 Post contains images Astuteman : Pushed to hazard a guess, I'd say that the condition of the original wiring was found to be far worse than was originally envisaged, resulting in a d
31 Zeke : What aircraft would India operate off this carrier ?
32 A342 : Brand-new MiG-29Ks/KUBs, the first of which, IIRC, have already started flight testing. Further in the future, maybe a naval variant of its indigenou
33 DesertJets : The INS Vikramaditya will most likely operate a mix of Mig-29Ks and Sea Harriers. Honestly as the delays continue why not just bail out on the refit
34 Post contains links Lumberton : Some more news. The costs has gone up. (surprise!) Will Russia cancel aircraft carrier deal with India? The Russians "might actually try to keep the v
35 Nomadd22 : There's a reason old ships almost inevitably turn into nightmares when someone tries to restore them. The degree of wiring and plumbing and all other
36 PP705 : I think its time we called off this deal and looked around for another carrier. The Russians are no longer dependable as a supplier. They have increas
37 Trex8 : and you think any of the other major arms suppliers on the world market don't do the same???
38 HAWK21M : Ideally.What India currently is doing,is gradually moving away from one supplier nation & looking out for options. regds MEL
39 Osiris30 : I failed to see why India doesn't just build their own carrier. Any nation which can do lunar shots should be more than capable of building their own
40 Nomadd22 : Building a 1,000 foot long floating airport is a little different scale than sticking a turbo pump and a nozzle on the bottom of a fuel tank.
41 Osiris30 : Sure, not disputing that, but it is sounding like all that India is *really* getting from Russia in their deal is a hull since everything else is bei
42 Nomadd22 : India's technical skills are certainly second to none. I wouldn't be surprised to see them become the next Hundai if they decided to get into the humo
43 DesertJets : Well the INS Vikrant is already under construction. Which would be the first home built aircraft carrier. If the Russians can't finish the current sh
44 Osiris30 : That's kind of where my thought process is at, at the moment. Wouldn't surprise me at all, and if the funds had been redirected one can only imagine
45 PP705 : The delay has a lot to do with the present geo-political situations. The Russians are clearly not happy with the the increasing closeness between the
46 Post contains links Lumberton : This is turning into a horror show for the IN. Price is now expected to be USD$2.9 billion--with a "b". Sounds like the Russians are doing a shake dow
47 Osiris30 : Man between this and the A400M, US Military contractors are beginning to look down right cheap by comparison!! (You know, the same military contracto
48 DEVILFISH : With the US$ and economy where they are now, maybe they could even order a brand-new, competitively priced carrier from US shipbuilders! Any ballpark
49 JoeCanuck : India should just pull the pin. They are completely screwed in this deal. The final price will be significantly more than 2.9 billion. Screw the carri
50 Osiris30 : Agreed 100% on that one. Funnel the funds into their own production. For $2.9B that better be one hell of a hull... oh wait.. it's an old hull, n/m.
51 Nomadd22 : Can't happen. With the US playing both sides of the border, India isn't going to give up their relationship with Russia.
52 Osiris30 : So India is just supposed to keep handing over 100s of millions of dollars every time Russia farts? Granted it's a damned if you do, damned if you do
53 JoeCanuck : There are other arms dealers besides the US and Russia. It looks like all India is getting from Russia is buggered. Long term, short term...the resul
54 Nomadd22 : The Nimitz class won't start retiring till around 2020. With refit and refuling, I doubt if India could get one till 25 or 26.
55 HAWK21M : Not advisable relying on only one supplier in todays times. regds MEL
56 Post contains links Lumberton : Update. According to this report, the Russians have offered a small price decrease as a "face saving" gesture to India. http://www.defensenews.com/sto
57 Vivekman2006 : The problem is that India has already invested a huge amount of time, manpower and money in the process of acquiring this carrier. AFAIK, India has a
58 Nomadd22 : There's an old saying regarding "Throwing good money after bad" Spending $2 billion because you already spent $650 million is a pretty poor way to ma
59 JoeCanuck : The US killed the Comanche after spending 7 billion on the project. 650 million is a pittance compared to what they will overspend on the project. It
60 Post contains links Lumberton : This thing is the "gift" that keeps on giving.... http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4222149&c=ASI&s=TOP The Russians are holding the big cards he
61 Post contains links Lumberton : The Indians appear to be caving into Russian demands for more money. There appears no face saving exit or alternative here. But "Discussions though wi
62 HAWK21M : With options limited to costs....Any idea why the US is not offering Carriers to India.Or is it the price. regds MEL.
63 ThePointblank : Because all of the US carriers are large supercarriers that are operationally, beyond the experience of the Indian Navy, and that the current carrier
64 Lumberton : AFAIK, the Indians have never asked the US if they would sell them a carrier, nor has the US offered. I could see that changing at some point--especia
65 Bongodog1964 : Invincible is mothballed and sitting in Portsmouth dockyard, its highly unlikley that the Royal Navy will be given the budget to bring her back into
66 Post contains links Tugger : Well here's another reason for India to be worried about their carrier that Russia is working on: http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9AQCRA
67 NA : 2.900.000.000 $ for a 27 year old Russian carrier which even as a new one was vastly inferior to a Nimitz. Now thats a deal for the dump!
68 Post contains links Nomadd22 : A pretty entensive article from Defense Industry daily. http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...ay-cost-increases-03283/#more-3283
69 Marcus : Interesting read....does anyone know what is the status of the supposed possibility of India getting a retired US carrier?, the articles in the link o
70 Par13del : The odds are better if the Indians request one of the "brown water" carriers like the Tarawa, one of those that the Marines use, cant see where it ma
71 Post contains links Lumberton : Old thread, but it may be of interest: Would A Nimitz Class CV Work For The Indian Navy? (by Lumberton Feb 23 2009 in Military Aviation & Space Flight
72 Nomadd22 : The US wants a new class of carrier, but a main reason they don't go for another cycle with the old ones is that a 2nd refueling combined with all th
73 NA : I doubt that the RN and the USN would sell its foremost state-of-art ships to foreign countries outside NATO. Thats a huge technological transfer they
74 ThePointblank : Perhaps the Indians could buy another copy of the CVF, which would help drive down the cost of the two carriers the UK is purchasing (for a total of
75 NA : Surely a sale of a third CVF would bring down the individual ship´s cost down by 500 million pounds or more. But the RN needs a new carrier by the p
76 Kaitak : Is it possible to distinguish between the vessel itself and the technology; I'm sure that it is possible to sell one of the vessels (or another simil
77 NA : Absolutely, thats possible. 20 years ago the USN sold its then brandnew and state-of-the-art "Arleigh Burke" destroyers design to Japan - more or les
78 HAWK21M : Self dependence is the best option. regds MEL.
79 MD11Engineer : If this is currently not possible, why not join up with the British and French. I´m quite sure they´d like to have another partner to share the exp
80 BarfBag : The CVF rumour is most likely meant to pressurize the Russians, rather than constituting a realistic expression of interest. Besides the Viraat, which
81 Post contains links Lumberton : Delayed again--to December 2012. http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...y-of-russian-aircraft-carrier.html
82 Post contains links Lumberton : So what has this thing cost so far? Close to USD$5 billion? http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/702/
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