WINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 70 Posted (6 years 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6525 times:
Boeing confirms fresh delay to Turkey’s 737 AEW&C project.
Deliveries under the Turkish air force’s “Peace Eagle” airborne early warning and control system project have been further delayed until 2010 due to software and equipment issues with the modified Boeing 737-700 aircraft.
“Upgrading the sensors is going more slowly than expected,” says Maureen Dougherty, Boeing’s vice-president for the 737 AEW&C project. “To increase the performance, the software and the equipment will be modified,” she said before this week’s International Defence Industry Fair (IDEF) in Ankara.
Slz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (6 years 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 6409 times:
Oh dear....
Luckily it is 'only' the Wedgetail and thus the repercussions are limited, but Boeing's failure to successfully integrate complex electronics in an existing platform like the 737NG should be a good lesson for all those who think Boeing is so much better than Airbus when it comes to managing its programs...
MDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 2, posted (6 years 23 hours ago) and read 6395 times:
Quoting Slz396 (Reply 1): ...should be a good lesson for all those who think Boeing is so much better than Airbus when it comes to managing its programs...
And the Airbus AEW&C airframe is......
Level of complexity difference. Apples to Ferraris.
PPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8492 posts, RR: 43 Reply 3, posted (6 years 21 hours ago) and read 6356 times:
Is it a systems integration problem or a weight problem? Haven't been in the loop, but from the article sounds like the systems are too heavy (thus decreasing the aircraft's performance) or something. . .
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
Brendows From Norway, joined Apr 2006, 1020 posts, RR: 4 Reply 4, posted (6 years 16 hours ago) and read 6307 times:
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 3): Is it a systems integration problem or a weight problem?
I believe that it's a software and hardware integration problem, just as it is with the wedgetail. Military projects tend to get a little more difficult and unpredictable...
Quoting Slz396 (Reply 1): but Boeing's failure to successfully integrate complex electronics in an existing platform like the 737NG should be a good lesson for all those who think Boeing is so much better than Airbus when it comes to managing its programs...
This has most likely nothing to do with the platform, but you probably knew that very well...
Quote: "Turkey’s delayed 'Peace Eagle' airborne early warning and control aircraft project has received a welcome boost, with the nation’s first of four modified 737 airliners having performed its flight debut earlier this month. Conducted from Boeing’s Seattle Field site in Washington, the 2.5h debut included 'a series of functional tests that verified the airworthiness of the aircraft’s systems and structures,' the company says."
Usnseallt82 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 4891 posts, RR: 55 Reply 6, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5784 times:
Quoting Slz396 (Reply 1): but Boeing's failure to successfully integrate complex electronics in an existing platform like the 737NG should be a good lesson for all those who think Boeing is so much better than Airbus when it comes to managing its programs...
You're shittin me, right?
It has nothing to do with what company is taking on the project, nor does it have anything to do with what airframe its on. You have to realize that to upgrade an aircraft with the electronics needed to perform this mission is a major undertaking. There are so many systems that have to be reconfigured over and over because of the extra 'stuff' in there, like normal electrical systems that now get interference from the new equipment and vice versa. You have to go through many hurdles before you put this stuff on.
To say that it has something to do with Boeing is just asinine.
Boeing Completes Painting of First Peace Eagle Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircraft
Quote: "ST. LOUIS, Nov. 08, 2007 -- A newly painted Peace Eagle Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) aircraft is shown in Turkish Air Force colors outside a Boeing [NYSE: BA] hangar in Seattle, Wash.
The aircraft will make its first international flight this month when it travels to the Dubai Air Show in the United Arab Emirates, where it will be on static display Nov. 11-15."
QFMel From Australia, joined Jun 2009, 79 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4419 times:
Quoting WINGS (Thread starter): Deliveries under the Turkish air force’s “Peace Eagle” airborne early warning and control system project have been further delayed until 2010 due to software and equipment issues with the modified Boeing 737-700 aircraft.
Who'd have thunk it? I'd doubt that the Turkish Air Force is going to hold it's breath. These things take time- just ask the RAAF.
It has nothing to do with what company is taking on the project, nor does it have anything to do with what airframe its on. You have to realize that to upgrade an aircraft with the electronics needed to perform this mission is a major undertaking. There are so many systems that have to be reconfigured over and over because of the extra 'stuff' in there, like normal electrical systems that now get interference from the new equipment and vice versa. You have to go through many hurdles before you put this stuff on.
To say that it has something to do with Boeing is just asinine.
Thank you for saving me the trouble. The workings of an AWACS/AEW&C system is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma. Tremendously complicated, particularly with integrating those systems with the early build airframes.
Steman From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 1275 posts, RR: 8 Reply 9, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4349 times:
I expect similar delays if not even worst on the P-8 Poseidon.
It´s easy to convert a standard 737-800 with new raked wingtips and some holes in the lower fuselage. But integrating the complex ASW/ASuW systems (plus the parafernalia of ESM, Recce, etc etc that this platform is intended to perform) will be very hard.
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 26722 posts, RR: 83 Reply 10, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4322 times:
Quoting Slz396 (Reply 1): Luckily it is 'only' the Wedgetail and thus the repercussions are limited, but Boeing's failure to successfully integrate complex electronics in an existing platform like the 737NG should be a good lesson for all those who think Boeing is so much better than Airbus when it comes to managing its programs...
I'm sorry, but since Boeing isn't the one designing the components, developing the components, building the components, testing the components, and delivering the components, I don't see how they can be accused of "mis-managing" them.
That would be like accusing Boeing and Airbus of "mis-management" when they had to stop production due to the delay in getting lavatories. I didn't realize they designed them, developed them, built them, tested them and delivered them. I thought sub-contractors did. Silly me.
Seriously, kindly keep the petty sniping for the sake of petty sniping to yourself. It doesn't benefit the discussion.
DEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4429 posts, RR: 1 Reply 11, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4318 times:
Quoting Steman (Reply 9): I expect similar delays if not even worst on the P-8 Poseidon.
While the P-8A is not without its share of troubles, Boeing and its systems suppliers have had a long, successful track record with this kind of work. Also, it doesn't have the idiosyncratic and slogging top mounted array seen on the Peace Eagle.
Quote: "Following T-1's first flight, the programme is now working on resolving the 'inevitable' software anomalies that appear in such a complex mission system, says Feldmann.
[.....]
While the T-1 is dedicated to airworthiness testing, the T-2 and T-3 flight-test aircraft are assigned to checking out mission systems and weapon systems, respectively.
The P-8A programme will integrate the mission systems, which includes more than 2 million lines of software code, on the T-2 at Boeing Field, said Feldmann.
[.....]
Moran acknowledges that the mission system is 'an issue that we're concerned about, but we've got a good chance to be successful and keep to schedule.'"
The problems with the Turkish platform seem to center around the multirole electronically scanned array radar.
Quoting Steman (Reply 9): It´s easy to convert a standard 737-800 with new raked wingtips and some holes in the lower fuselage.
It wasn't a walk in the park either.....
Quote: "Until now, the programme has had to overcome structural design challenges, with the P-8A's basic structure being 75% unique compared with the 737-800, says Feldmann. Those challenges included integrating a weapons bay in the keel of the airframe."
Trex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 3970 posts, RR: 14 Reply 12, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4299 times:
Quoting Usnseallt82 (Reply 6): To say that it has something to do with Boeing is just asinine.
Yes its real complicated, yes any OEM could have had problems. but isn't part of the $ the customer is paying for the OEM to have "realistic"" timelines for delivery?? Anyone can give a low price and an early delivery schedule and then plead its not their fault if they are late or over priced! And on that score Boeings recent history withe the 737 AEW and 767 tanker has been less than stellar by anyone's standard. In fact wasn't one of the USAFs rationale for picking the NG/EADS tanker, NGs better recent history on managing programs than Boeings?
My company almost purchased a million+ of equipment from a US company which 7 years ago claimed they would have the product ready in 2 years. We went German, it was delivered in a year (and there was actually an integration issue with our present equipment which was purely our fault -we gave them the wrong specs- and they built us a new unit at their expense so they essentially made us two units and delivered one for the price of one)- which if nothing shows what profit margins they have!!) .
The US company still has no product they could deliver today, we would have been hosed if we had waited for that still non existent product, plus they wanted a slightly higher price too!
Boeing have been too quick to promise the earth and the moon to too many customers to win contracts. They need to either tighten up their management of these programs or spend more money on their engineers or they will be forever running up charges on these programs and having upset customers.
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