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Brazilian F-X 2  
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8942 posts, RR: 40
Posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 17614 times:



The new rumored contenders are the Typhoon and the Rafale. The SU-35 is expected to remain as a leading contender, the Gripen as well, and I'd expect maybe a new bid coming from Lockheed for the F-16. What is the best choice for us?

Just wondering what you guys think would be the outcome of a Rafale/Typhoon v. SU-35? And as a side question, the Indian Su-30s are equipped with Israeli systems, right? What has been the experience of the IAF with the Sukhois, especially in regards to reliability?

The F-X "2" program hasn't been announced yet, but many expect it to be.


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
83 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4680 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 17624 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Thread starter):
The new rumored contenders are the Typhoon and the Rafale. The SU-35 is expected to remain as a leading contender, the Gripen as well, and I'd expect maybe a new bid coming from Lockheed for the F-16. What is the best choice for us?

Just wondering what you guys think would be the outcome of a Rafale/Typhoon v. SU-35? And as a side question, the Indian Su-30s are equipped with Israeli systems, right? What has been the experience of the IAF with the Sukhois, especially in regards to reliability?

So the Mirage 2000 is out?

Regarding the Sukhoi aircraft, one has to be careful with the designations. There are so many of them, often for the same aircraft.

Here are the pros and cons for each aircraft, IMO:

Sukhoi Flankers:
pros: very long range, not very expensive, with TVC and Canards impressive manoeuvrability, superb ejection seat, some nice AAMs, no export restrictions
cons: limited choice of precision guided air-to-ground bombs

F16:
pros: very good radar (Block 60), large choice of precision air-to-ground weapons, with CFTs good range, less expensive than Typhoon/Rafale
cons: export restrictions might apply

Rafale:
pros: good range (CFTs are planned), large weapons load
cons: limited choice of weapons yet, might be a little expensive

Typhoon:
pros: good manoeuvrability, advanced man-machine interface, set to receive some nice weapons, proven supercruise capability
cons: very expensive, IMO medicore range without CFTs, limited choice of air-to-ground weapons yet

Gripen:
pros: relatively inexpensive, good short-field capability
cons: smaller weapons load than the others, range?


Please don't flame for this, just my opinion!



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8942 posts, RR: 40
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 17606 times:

Quoting A342 (Reply 1):
So the Mirage 2000 is out?

That I couldn't say. Nothing official yet. The FAB bought 12X (second hand) M2000s from the French as an intermediate solution for our retired Mirage-3s, and those have been delivering since almost a year ago:


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Quoting A342 (Reply 1):
Sukhoi Flankers:
pros: very long range, not very expensive, with TVC and Canards impressive manoeuvrability, superb ejection seat, some nice AAMs, no export restrictions
cons: limited choice of precision guided air-to-ground bombs

Are you familiar with reliability of these aircraft? Before the turn of the millenium, our previous president's administration qualified the Sukhoi's as too much "aggregate risk" and chose the Gripen instead, but also chose to leave the final decision for the next administration (only to then delay it and finally cancel it). I'm not sure what they meant by "aggregate risk", but I suspect reliability and/or mx support issues.

Also - out of curiosity - would it be too expensive to fit Flankers with western systems? (including radar/missiles)

Quoting A342 (Reply 1):
F16:
pros: very good radar (Block 60), large choice of precision air-to-ground weapons, with CFTs good range, less expensive than Typhoon/Rafale
cons: export restrictions might apply

The F-16 was held as an ideal choice, but export restrictions to Chile dealing with BVR AAMs turned the FAB off from that plane. Even with assurance form the U.S. government. This can always change over time, though.

Quoting A342 (Reply 1):
Rafale:
pros: good range (CFTs are planned), large weapons load
cons: limited choice of weapons yet, might be a little expensive

Indeed, plenty of rumors about the Rafale, but price is still an issue. There were hopes Dassault would win deals for the Rafale and reduce/spread-out the development cost of the aircraft so to make it a bit more affordable.

Quoting A342 (Reply 1):
Typhoon:
pros: good manoeuvrability, advanced man-machine interface, set to receive some nice weapons, proven supercruise capability
cons: very expensive, IMO medicore range without CFTs, limited choice of air-to-ground weapons yet

The Typhoon is one of my (if not the) favorite aircraft. However, between the Rafale and the Typhoon, I don't see a lot of difference between them to justify the increase in cost for us. The longer range, however, is a plus for us.



Quoting A342 (Reply 1):
Gripen:
pros: relatively inexpensive, good short-field capability
cons: smaller weapons load than the others, range?

Range was the biggest issue given. Great aircraft though.

[Edited 2007-06-09 23:58:46]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4680 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 17588 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
Are you familiar with reliability of these aircraft?

No, but I haven't heard anything negative about it.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
Also - out of curiosity - would it be too expensive to fit Flankers with western systems? (including radar/missiles)

Well, newer Flankers have nice radars, and IIRC further upgrades are planned. IMO no need to install western systems. Same with AAMs. Also the Flanker has a relatively large range of precision air-to-ground missiles, but not as many bombs. I think that's where the problem lies.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
However, between the Rafale and the Typhoon, I don't see a lot of difference between them to justify the increase in cost for us. The longer range, however, is a plus for us.

Actually, the Rafale has the longer range.  Smile


My personal favourite is the Flanker. It's just amazing.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4781 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 17524 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Thread starter):

The F-X "2" program hasn't been announced yet, but many expect it to be.

As long as it doesn't fizzle out like the previous one, then well and good. The candidates' list encompasses a very broad band of capabilities, so selection isn't very straightforward, unlike when there is some limiting criteria like MGW or number of engines, or indeed, price range - where comparing like for like could at least be approximated. Offset requirements would likely not be defined until release of RFP, so from a hi-lo perspective:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
The Typhoon is one of my (if not the) favorite aircraft.

In terms of capabilities and future potential, the Eurofighter is definitely the pick of the crop here. Understandably, that desirability commands a very high price which could handicap its campaign.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
Indeed, plenty of rumors about the Rafale, but price is still an issue. There were hopes Dassault would win deals for the Rafale and reduce/spread-out the development cost of the aircraft so to make it a bit more affordable.

The Rafale too, is very capable and has the advantage of a maritime variant in case Brazil envisages a future carrier force. Another factor is the FAB's familiarity with French equipment and past association with Dassault. And although EADS + Embraer is no more, French and Brazilian industrial cooperation could be restored with weapons, avionics and other contracts that could come with a Rafale win. Main drawback is the Rafale's unsuccessful export attempts, thus no widely fielded base to ensure easy availability of spares. This would also inhibit a drop in per frame price.


Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
Before the turn of the millenium, our previous president's administration qualified the Sukhoi's as too much "aggregate risk"

The Sukhoi's are topnotch aerodynamic machines with very good range, and offered with a good suite of A2A weapons, and very reasonably priced given its capabilities. Not as wide a choice for A2G, but still pretty impressive. Radars and avionics may suffer in comparison to Western types, but are undergoing upgrades, and in some cases completely new ones are proposed. The reliability issues are being addressed by more stringent TBO specs for the engines, which are also, reportedly being revamped.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
I'm not sure what they meant by "aggregate risk", but I suspect reliability and/or mx support issues.

Unfortunately, the strictest after sales support could be stipulated in the contract but maintenance and spares supply still come out spotty due to situations in the exporting country. The most that could be resorted to is to withhold progress payments until services improve, but fleet readiness will have already suffered. That might also impact commitments for the offset deals.


Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
Also - out of curiosity - would it be too expensive to fit Flankers with western systems? (including radar/missiles)

IINM, the Russians are quite accommodating with these type of arrangements. The problem is if Western companies would be similarly flexible with their prices and technology release without their usual partners. If we could go by what had been posted in this forum, Thales are supposed to be supplying electronics for ISR platforms from Ukraine in Venezuela.


Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
and chose the Gripen instead,

Very logical choice too. A true fourth generation design, the Gripen's biggest selling point is its netcentric ability. This allows it to function as battlespace C&C aircraft. Teamed with the Ericsson equipped ISR assets already in FAB service, it assures a proven, seamless combination that would act as a force multiplier. Its inherent multi-role capability will provide Brazil with an effective all-around air asset which could operate from diverse locations at a very reasonable price. A welcome bonus could be the involvement in local industry of the highly regarded SAAB Microwave Systems. Weak points are the single engine which would further be taxed by the increasing payload, and as a result, speed and range. News are that the engine is being uprated and weapons choice is being expanded in efforts to land contracts in Norway and Denmark. But the most opportune thing yet is that the Flygvapnet has declared around 70 JAS-39s surplus to its requirements, and would be offering those zero-timed for export. Overall, a very tempting prospect, considering the generous terms extended to the Czech, Hungarian and South African air forces.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):

The F-16 was held as an ideal choice, but export restrictions to Chile dealing with BVR AAMs turned the FAB off from that plane. Even with assurance form the U.S. government. This can always change over time, though.

Minus the age and political issues, the Falcon arguably has the best combination of attributes to make it as the FAB's frontline fighter. A choice of proven and very reliable engines, excellent radar and avionics, a very extensive array of smart weapons, good payload and with CFTs, very good range. Fully evolved and proven in air defense and ground attack roles. All at a reasonable price. Pluses include very reliable after sales service (intervening circumstances notwithstanding  Wink), and the thousands of examples in worldwide use assuring diverse inter-operability and wide availability of spares and support. The generation issue could be tackled by incorporating features included in the F-16 Future Options list. Depending on the outcome of the IAF tender, an F-16NG could yet emerge as a longshot. If not, concerns about export restrictions could be ovecome by a mutually acceptable compromise like the Sufa on offer to India where IAI would supply the radars and avionics, as well as some of the weapons systems. IIRC, IAI's work on the FAB's F-5s went well? Another incentive is the weak dollar, though this may be gone long before a contract is signed.

To complete the list and balance the low and high choices, I will include here the MiG-35. Relatively inexpensive and well-powered, most notable feature is thrust-vectoring giving the already very aerodynamic airframe even more impressive maneuverability. Highly capable in air to air combat and ground attack roles. Wide weapons choice. Downsides are the radars and avionics, the current status of MiG in the consolidated Russian military aircraft manufacturing organization, the aforementioned infamous support service, and the progressively stronger Rouble.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4680 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks ago) and read 17484 times:

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 4):
Downsides are the radars and avionics

The MiG-35 addressed just that. It has a new fully AESA radar and a new glass cockpit.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1598 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 17467 times:

I'm aware the questions were asked to A342 but I'll chime in.

Quoting PPVRA (Thread starter):
Indian Su-30s are equipped with Israeli systems, right? What has been the experience of the IAF with the Sukhois, especially in regards to reliability?

The indian MKI use some israeli equipment and are able to use Rafael Litening pods.
The initial entry into service in 1997 with the IAF was a bit troublesome, though these were early Su-30K birds while the integration of israeli and russian avionics with indian software took place. As far as I know, there are three batches of MKI's, Mk.1 early deliveries where not all of the systems were present; Mk.2 Futher integration and Mk.3 with is the final version with all the systems are integrated. Early versions will updated to this standard and the Su-30K birds were given back as payment.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
I'm not sure what they meant by "aggregate risk", but I suspect reliability and/or mx support issues.

Also - out of curiosity - would it be too expensive to fit Flankers with western systems? (including radar/missiles)

Well, speaking for the Venezuelan MK2's the mx support has been great, as of now, the group has logged a little over 700 flight hours in a little more than 6 months(the average for a NATO group I believe is around 300 hours yearly)without any hitch other than a bird ingestion by one of the Flankers but it returned to the base safely and was up in the air again in less than a week. You don't achieve that without the help of the manufacturer and shows that Sukhoi is improving its costumer support, of course, they haven't reached LM levels of support, but they seem to be on the right track.
Also, Sukhoi send lots of spareparts to Malaysia even before the firsts MKM Flanker arrived, just as the Malaysians requested.

As for fitting western avionics to the Su-35BM, why?. The Su-35BM(which is the real deal, so to speak and will be unveiled at MAKS 2007) is better in every aspect to the MKI/MKM birds. But yes, its possible, except it would take you a few years until the first plane its delivered, specially switching the radar(don't see the point, though, since the BM will have an AESA radar). Not sure about the missiles, seeing that anchoring points in russian weapons and western weapons differ.


User currently offlineDeskflier From Sweden, joined Jan 2007, 537 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 17456 times:

Why are there single-engined types in the race for this contract? Who in their right mind would fly a single-engined aircraft that lacks any capability to land on water and is virtually unable to fly dead-stick (both control-wise and in terms of L/D), over the Amazon jungle? The only thing the twins has speaking against them is that most of them are very big (=excessively expensive).

(LOL) Oh my God, what have I done? Just hope that I won't face treason charges for this. (LOL)



How can anyone not fly, when we live at a time when we can fly?
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4781 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 17406 times:

For lack of photos in the database of the exact versions to be entered in the competition, can we use these instead as points of reference?.....

MiG-29OVT for MiG-35

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Photo © Sergey Krivchikov - Russian AviaPhoto Team
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Photo © Sergey Krivchikov - Russian AviaPhoto Team



Su-35

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Photo © Sergey Riabsev - Russian AviaPhoto Team
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Quoting Deskflier (Reply 7):
Who in their right mind would fly a single-engined aircraft that lacks any capability to land on water

Yes, a twin is absolutely essential. They should go for this.....

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Photo © Alexandr Zhukov - Russian AviaPhoto Team



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Photo © Fyodor Borisov - Russian AviaPhoto Team
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Photo © Jos Schoofs


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Photo © Fyodor Borisov - Russian AviaPhoto Team



Quoting Deskflier (Reply 7):
and is virtually unable to fly dead-stick (both control-wise and in terms of L/D), over the Amazon jungle?

In which case they could land on the Amazon River.

Quoting Deskflier (Reply 7):
Why are there single-engined types in the race for this contract? ..... The only thing the twins has speaking against them is that most of them are very big (=excessively expensive).

If you would finance the project, then I'm sure the FAB would only be too happy to oblige.

Seriously, the carrier variant of the MiG-29 would be a good candidate in case Brazil sees that for the Marinha.

[Edited 2007-06-11 03:45:23]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8942 posts, RR: 40
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 17332 times:

Wow that's alot to answer! Thanks a lot all of you!!

Quoting A342 (Reply 3):
Actually, the Rafale has the longer range.  

Wow, totally got that backwards. Really takes away much from the Typhoon for us then.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 4):
The Rafale too, is very capable and has the advantage of a maritime variant in case Brazil envisages a future carrier force.

We already have a carrier (also bought from the French, second-hand), but I'm sure the Marinha has opther priorities right now. Since the end of the dictatorships our militaries have seen a blowback and are extremely underfunded. Things are slowly changing, though.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 4):
Unfortunately, the strictest after sales support could be stipulated in the contract but maintenance and spares supply still come out spotty due to situations in the exporting country. The most that could be resorted to is to withhold progress payments until services improve, but fleet readiness will have already suffered. That might also impact commitments for the offset deals.

Indeed what I have read about the Indian AF. I remember an article claming "defense sources" saying that 30% to 40% of all IAF Sulhois were grounded due to lack of spares. This kind of thing is not taken lightly in Brazil (I'm sure latin america as well). The FAB would be seriously ridiculed if that were to happen ("billion dollar+ fighter deal that stays in the hangar").

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 4):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
and chose the Gripen instead,

Very logical choice too.

Can the Gripen be fitted with CFTs? Shouldn't be too expensive/complex. . .??

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 4):
IIRC, IAI's work on the FAB's F-5s went well?

So far so good. Embraer/IAI began delivering them back late last year IIRC. Some info on their capabilities in this link:
http://www.patricksaviation.com/wiki/F-5BR_(F-5M)_Tiger_II

Quoting Acheron (Reply 6):
You don't achieve that without the help of the manufacturer and shows that Sukhoi is improving its costumer support, of course, they haven't reached LM levels of support, but they seem to be on the right track.

Thanks for the input form the Venezuelan experience. I hope they have indeed improved as you say.



Quoting Acheron (Reply 6):
As for fitting western avionics to the Su-35BM, why?. The Su-35BM(which is the real deal, so to speak and will be unveiled at MAKS 2007) is better in every aspect to the MKI/MKM birds. But yes, its possible, except it would take you a few years until the first plane its delivered, specially switching the radar(don't see the point, though, since the BM will have an AESA radar). Not sure about the missiles, seeing that anchoring points in russian weapons and western weapons differ.

Mostly based on my readings that Russian electronics tend to lag behind somewhat, especially as far as ECMs is concerned. Also, we use many western systems and perhaps integration with those would be easier and make most/better use of what we have available.

I didn't know about the BM variant. Hard to find much info/updates of the SU-35 online.

Quoting Deskflier (Reply 7):

Most military assets are in the center/southern regions, not in the amazon. That has been changing in the past 8 years, though.


Again, thank you all for the very valuable input!



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1598 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 17315 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 9):
Mostly based on my readings that Russian electronics tend to lag behind somewhat, especially as far as ECMs is concerned. Also, we use many western systems and perhaps integration with those would be easier and make most/better use of what we have available.

I didn't know about the BM variant. Hard to find much info/updates of the SU-35 online.

Recently the Russians released the Sorbtsiya ECM pods for export(yeah, they actually don't export some equipment
 laughing  ) and I've heard it gets the job done, precisely because it hasn't been outside Russia and its specs are not that known. Apparently the russians are confident enough about it that they permanently replaced the wingtip rails with said pods in the Su-35BM.

Some equipment has been developed with the help of western manufacturers, an example would be the GOES 342 FLIR turret present in the Mi-35M2 was developed with the help of SAGEM, same goes for the latests versions SAPSAN-E targeting pods employed in the Flanker family(The IR ball in the MiG-35 its probably one of the few devices that could track a F-22 at decent range). As far as I've heard, the last Flanker will hold its ground very well against a anything you can throw at it, except an F-22.

As for the Su-35BM per se, like I mentioned before, it will be the last of the Flanker family until the arrival of the PAK-FA. It will have an N035 Irbis-E AESA radar with a range of 400km for a target with an RCS of 3 m2(as per manufacturer), it will be able to supercruise, the structure has been modified and made more lightweight, it will probably be able to carry R-37M(range of 300km, and I say probably because the brochure only says Long Range Missile, which could be R-172 or the R-37M).
Also, quite new for the Flanker family, it will be able to carry external fuel tanks, giving more range to a plane that already had an impresive range.
Heres the brochure showed at LAAD.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b207/acheroncyc/su35_10.jpg
Yes, that's 12 medium range missiles on one go.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b207/acheroncyc/su35_01.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b207/acheroncyc/su35_02.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b207/acheroncyc/su35_08.jpg


User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4781 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 17299 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 9):

Can the Gripen be fitted with CFTs? Shouldn't be too expensive/complex. . .??

This is the only thing I could find, and it's dated.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles.../06/12/131212/network-fighter.html

Quote:
"Gripen has often been linked with a new or upgraded engine, which, says Brown, continues to be a longer term possibility. Range and endurance could be improved by using conformal fuel tanks or incorporating a fuselage plug in the aircraft. The latter would be the same length as the two-seater, but the rear cockpit area would be a fuel tank."

Note the bulge over the wing in the second image. The GE 414 engine was mentioned in the latest releases, but not CFT - only increased internal fuel capacity.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ipen-variants-studied-by-saab.html

http://www.gripen.com/en/GripenFighter/RemainLeadingEdge.htm

It seems CFTs are not being actively pursued.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineBarfBag From India, joined Mar 2001, 2207 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 17284 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 9):
Indeed what I have read about the Indian AF. I remember an article claming "defense sources" saying that 30% to 40% of all IAF Sulhois were grounded due to lack of spares.

Sorry, that is incorrect. We are no different from Brazil in terms of tolerating maintenance issues. The real story is that the IAF positively flogged the initial Su-30Ks, and the original plan for progressively upgrading the frames to MKI standard was changed in favour of fresh airframes. It wasn't about spares, but that the IAF put in a large number of hours *and* cycles into the original Ks, through a combination of short base runs and long IFRed 10hr missions. Spares and maintenance are not a huge issue - HAL manufactures the Su-30MKIs and parts locally now, and several locally manufactured specimens have already been in IAF service for a while now.



India, cricket junior and senior world champions
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8942 posts, RR: 40
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 17233 times:

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 12):
We are no different from Brazil in terms of tolerating maintenance issues.

I didn't mean to claim India is not, just that the FAB could avert serious ridicule by learning from other AFs experiences. I found an article with the claims I quoted, but its from the Malaysian National News Agency (not an Indian source and I don't know their reliability):

"In addition, according to defence sources, almost thirty to fifty per cent of IAF Russian supplied fighters remain grounded due to want of essential spares."
http://www.bernama.com.my/bernama/v3/news.php?id=263558

Quote is towards the end of the article, which is not even a month old.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 12):
Spares and maintenance are not a huge issue - HAL manufactures the Su-30MKIs and parts locally now, and several locally manufactured specimens have already been in IAF service for a while now.

That should help ensure smooth operations (if it is a problem to begin with). But while the FAB is expected to eventually order a larger number of fighters, initially, it's supposed to be only 12-24 or so. No economy of scale to justify local manufacturing yet.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 11):

Thanks for the articles. Very interesting.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 10):

Thanks for the detailed info. It's a great aircraft and one of the top contenders, no doubt.

I just hop they officially launch the program soon!  Smile



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineBarfBag From India, joined Mar 2001, 2207 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 17225 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 13):
"In addition, according to defence sources, almost thirty to fifty per cent of IAF Russian supplied fighters remain grounded due to want of essential spares."

The IAF currently operates the entire MiG-2x range, not just the Su-30 MKI. The spares issue primarily affected the Fulcrums and Fishbeds, and has since been resolved. Unnamed 'sources' aren't particularly credible; if effectively half the IAF fleet was grounded, there would have been a hell of a lot more press about it. The Defence Minister is answerable to Parliament during the publicly televised question hour, and he has at no time indicated anything of the sort. The spares and financial issues in the article you quoted pertains to the rapid rise of commodity metal prices in the last 2 years, because of which the Russians pushed to renegotiate the escalation clauses.



India, cricket junior and senior world champions
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8942 posts, RR: 40
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 17213 times:

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 14):

Thanks for the explanation.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineMD90fan From Bahamas, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 2931 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 17203 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):

That I couldn't say. Nothing official yet. The FAB bought 12X (second hand) M2000s from the French as an intermediate solution for our retired Mirage-3s, and those have been delivering since almost a year ago:

Yes, 4are in service and are stationed around Brasilia, 8 more to go.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 6):
Indian Su-30s are equipped with Israeli systems, right? What has been the experience of the IAF with the Sukhois, especially in regards to reliability?

I've only heard them say good things about them, especially in PR's and military excersises.

The HAL built Su-30MKIs had some initial production problems, but that is being addressed and in the meantime India ordered more Irkut builds.

Also Brazil was/is interested in acquiring 50 Be-103 light amphibious airplanes and Mi-17 helicopters amongst other things  wink 

http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=11444348&PageNum=0



http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8942 posts, RR: 40
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 17185 times:

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 16):

Also Brazil was/is interested in acquiring 50 Be-103 light amphibious airplanes and Mi-17 helicopters amongst other things wink

Haven't heard anything in a while, especially about the Be-103s. Last thing I heard was about the helicopters and, IIRC the model, they also talked about the MI-34/35 as well as either the MI-17 or the MI-26 (or both?) to transport mobile radars and other equipment around the amazon (SIVAM surveillance program).

I believe both the Be-103 and the MI-17 are already certified in Brazil, but only one MI-17 in operations that I know of.


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"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4781 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 17135 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
Also - out of curiosity - would it be too expensive to fit Flankers with western systems? (including radar/missiles)

Further to this, I think the best source of information is Malaysia.....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...F38AAAEAAAIR1TIAAAAO&modele=jdc_34

Quote:
"The Su-30МКМ was developed by the Sukhoi Design Bureau on basis of the super maneuverable fighter the Su-30MKI. The aircraft has the same aerodynamically perfect airframe, state-of-the-art engine with the Thrust Vector Control (TVC) and the most advanced digital fly-by-wire system. The MKM version differs from the MKI by virtue of the composition of the onboard avionics. The French company ТHALES supplies the Head-up display (HUD), navigational forward-looking IR system NAVFLIR and Laser Designation pod (LDP Damocles). Aircraft carries missile approach warning sensor (MAWS) and laser warning sensor (LWS) manufactured by the AVITRONICS company (South Africa).

The electronic warfare (EW) system, up-to-date radar (with a phased antenna array capable of simultaneously tracking 15 and attacking 4 targets), optic-location system with the laser rangefinder are all produced by leading Russian manufacturers.

Officers from the RMAF have formed a Su-30MKM Project Team which is based in Moscow; the team has actively participated in the integration of all the avionics systems."



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineMD90fan From Bahamas, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 2931 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 17046 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 17):
Haven't heard anything in a while, especially about the Be-103s. Last thing I heard was about the helicopters and, IIRC the model, they also talked about the MI-34/35 as well as either the MI-17 or the MI-26 (or both?) to transport mobile radars and other equipment around the amazon (SIVAM surveillance program).

All of them would suit Brasil's needs, I am just wondering when they will order some. Whatever happened with the Black Hawks?

Also, DEVILFISH, IAF's Su-30MKI's produced from the Su-30MKI-MK3 batch were supposed to have Litening pods  bouncy 




http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8942 posts, RR: 40
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 16966 times:

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 19):
Whatever happened with the Black Hawks?

Most if not all delivered. Last year IIRC.



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 18):

Thank you again!



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4781 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 16805 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 20):
Thank you again!

You are welcome. And here's another tidbit about CFTs for the Gripen.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-more-payload-for-gripen-demo.html

Quote:
"The Gripen Demo aircraft will have a revised configuration, with a new forward-retracting main landing gear that frees up internal volume for extra fuel, and with distinctive bulged wingroot fairings underwing providing further increases in internal volume. The use of these fairings replaces the upper fuselage conformal tanks seen on previous studies, and will provide an extra 38% of internal fuel, taking the total to 3,130 kg."



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4781 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 16209 times:

Welcome news. The F-X2 competition is being revived! But this time around, the lineup is dominated by twins, except for the JSF and SAAB Gripen.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...g-upon-f-x2-fighter-program-04179/

F-X2: The Competition

Quote:
"For this second round of the FX competition, Dassault's Rafale, Eurofighter's Typhoon, Saab's JAS-39 Gripen, and Sukhoi's recently-unveiled SU-35 are all reported to be back in contention. The Air Force is also said to be interested in the Lockheed-Martin F-35, but the finalized nature of the industrial production partnership program may well get in the way. The Mirage 2000 production line is closing, however, and interest in the F-16 appears to have faded; neither has been mentioned as a contender this time around."

DID's analysis of the contenders is quite insightful. Coupled with the parallel procurement for helos, Brazil's armed forces are really looking at a serious buildup. Let's hope both push ahead.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8942 posts, RR: 40
Reply 23, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 16157 times:

Yeah it's good to hear. I just hope something comes out of this once and for all.

At least there seems to be more of a political will behind it this time.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1598 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 16127 times:

I believe the only real contender in this are the Su-35 and the Rafale. The amount of technology transfer that Brazil requires will rule out the F-35 and the french will hopefully learn from the Morocco experience.

25 Wvsuperhornet : I happen to agree with you the only other con I would note would be on the SU-35 Since none have acually been sold yet there could become an issue wi
26 Acheron : Not really. Sukhoi realized that to be competitive, they needed to pick up their act, specially with post-sale support. Venezuela's MK2 have logged m
27 Wvsuperhornet : Yes but to my knowledge its the SU-35 that is being looked at not the SU-30 unless something has changed the SU-35 which is a new aircraft and differ
28 Post contains images Acheron : Does it matter?. Its made by the same company and plant(both the MK2's and Su-35 are being manufactured in the KnAPPO plat at Komsomolsk-na-Amur. The
29 A342 : BTW, the modernized Brazilian F-5s are supposed to be quite capable. Does anybody happen to know if it can now carry any medium-range AAMs (e.g. Derb
30 PPVRA : Yup, they bought some recently. 11 of them from Jordan. And yes the have Derbys, and also acquired SKYSHIELD and LITENING III.
31 Acheron : I was talking about the unmodernized F-5E, not the F-5BR. Although it is indeed a very capable platform, being able to carry Derby and using Helmet M
32 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : Or else it might be the Rafale's Waterloo. Considering that Brazil might be their last chance for a Rafale export, Dassault could be very willing to
33 Wvsuperhornet : Just was making a judgement in my opinion but don't really care enough to put much thought into it. Really and there is a Brazillian threat out there
34 Post contains links DEVILFISH : Flightglobal has picked up the story..... http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...to-update-brazilian-air-force.html Quote: "But Brazil is far more con
35 PPVRA : Any guesses on the helicopters? Any knowledge of their cost? I think the Cougars are good helis but maybe its time for an upgrade. I like the Merlin.
36 Post contains images Baron95 : Why the heck don't the Brazilians just go for the F-35? I mean the way they take so long to make a decision, F35 slots will be available. The price is
37 Post contains images Acheron : Lol, no. Has to do with the sale of a.net to Demand Media. Besides, Bofors joined the veto, so no much to look for in there. Nope. It could very well
38 Wvsuperhornet : I agree I wouldn't discard the gripen its also a reasonable aircraft for them. I never said the SU-35 was a bad aircraft and yes I know the differenc
39 Post contains links and images F27Friendship : I'm not sure, but wouldn't that be the UAE (which got new block 60's) since Jordan bought our used F-16A/B'sMLU? dude! Brazil is HUGE! BTW< do others
40 Post contains links DEVILFISH : Well, the Indian deal last year for 80 Mi-17s was worth $660M. http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...licopter-manufacturers-review.html Do I take it
41 Post contains links DEVILFISH : An update on the IAF helo deal..... http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...-buy-80-mi17-1v-helicopters-02755/
42 Baron95 : That is exactly my point. That is a silly requirement. It is reminescent of the Brazilian "Market Reserve for Computers" in the 80s - computers below
43 Post contains images DEVILFISH : Let's see. Assuming the Lightning's price drops to around $80M per copy during slow rate production, they could get 24 frames and still have loose ch
44 Post contains images Acheron : Well, what fighter isn't expensive nowadays?. If you want a single engine aircraft, you are limited to the Grippen, F-16 and F-35. All three of them
45 Baron95 : This is a theoretical advantage - not a real one. Pretty hard to improve on an integrated G5 fighter. Or, as you are saying improve a G4 to match a G
46 Wvsuperhornet : Ummm ok with no Viable threats to its security other than its own internal security and gang violence in its cities. News to me since Russia has its
47 Baron95 : That is not true. Brazil is facing some serious and growing problems of incursions (land and air) in it's amazon reagion. What happens 15 years from
48 Post contains links and images F27Friendship : no problem I'm afraid this is untrue. It has 4 internal hardpoints (so it could carry 4) but I believe it can actually carry only 2 internally, since
49 Post contains links and images Acheron : If you don't have a gigantic budget of 500 trillions of dollars and deep pockets in case that's not enough, it helps to reduce operating costs to man
50 Post contains links Baron95 : Very few countries that buy advanced fighters go on to keep them on the front line for 40+ years like Brazil does. They are buying F16s now because i
51 Baron95 : Sorry, here is some fair use quote on the F35 internal AMRAAMs capabilities from the above link... ---------- The Joint Strike Fighter could be upgrad
52 Acheron : But I think you also need to understand the conflict scenarios for the region, which is part of the reason why most airforces in the region still ope
53 Post contains links DEVILFISH : Relative to that, a new study is being funded that would allow similar capability F-35 as the USAF's to be exported without compromising sensitive te
54 F27Friendship : Thanks for the link. I thought myself that volume was not really the issue, but the layout I presented is the one that's always "officially" presente
55 Post contains links F27Friendship : There's a discussion on F-16.net about this issue. See how the AMRAAM is swinged into the airstream when the door opens. I think this is criticial, to
56 Post contains images Baron95 : You are of course correct there. There are several issues. Without going into too much detail, some of the big ones are pushing the AMRAAM out while
57 Post contains links F27Friendship : Check out page 23 of this report http://www.adbr.com.au/download/2510.pdf There's a possible rack mentioned to have the F-35 carry more than just 4 mi
58 Post contains images Acheron : So are you suggesting selling fighters as a political presure and control measure?. Well, thats maybe a reason why Brazil is not going to buy US-made
59 Post contains images DEVILFISH : Did Dassault lose out again in Libya that they're now turning their attention to Venezuela? Is Rosoboronexport denying the Su-35BM sale this time? An
60 Wvsuperhornet : Yes I have heard that, but after 9-11 the US and it Politicians have been distancing themselves from the saudi's they have sold them some other weapo
61 Wvsuperhornet : Yes that has always amazed me also, considering the F-35 while not the F-22 by anymeans is a very capable fighter also.
62 F27Friendship : the F-35 does NOT hold sidewinders internally as of yet. It's a problem with the seaker that needs a "view" of the target. F-22 has a special piece o
63 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : However, in case you made a slip there and meant the FAB instead..... View Large View MediumPhoto © Henrique dos Santos Matte .....these photos
64 Acheron : No idea, lol. The BM's are more a matter of "when" than "if's". The Rafale at the moment is a rumour(and a possibility) since apparently there is a F
65 Baron95 : There you go - that is all the confirmation we need that in fact the IS an amrs race.
66 Wvsuperhornet : I Know I wasn't talking about Israel and yes they are the dominant airforce and military in the region. I was refering to the Saudi's and that the US
67 Baron95 : The F-35B will have a stealthy, belly-mounted 25 mm missionized gun pod - so they can carry it or put other stuff on it. It is different configuratio
68 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : They have four..... Maybe Embraer could build a tanker variant of this if they need new ones..... http://mediamanager.embraer.com.br/e...agina=2&pagi
69 F27Friendship : I've mentioned it a couple of times. The F-35 does not carry sidewinders internally (might in the future)
70 Baron95 : Neighter does it/did it carry 6 internal AMRAAMs internally in current configurations. As I mentioned before, the issue is the USAF not wanting their
71 Acheron : There was a similar logic applied to the F-4 and we know how that ended. I don't think relying so much on stealth is a good thing, but thats my opini
72 PPVRA : They are getting some ex-USAF P3s off the desert and thoroughly upgrading them in Europe (Spain?).[Edited 2007-11-20 16:05:57]
73 Post contains images Baron95 : Perhaps you missed my point - I am not advocating not carrying sidewinders. I'm simply saying you can carry them externally, once you knocked out the
74 Post contains links DEVILFISH : Whether the F-35 would or wouldn't have Sidewinders carried internally will be a moot point for the FAB if (in addition to the tech transfer issue) i
75 Post contains images PPVRA : Haven't heard anything new yet. . . defense news been kinda slow lately.
76 Baron95 : Total program cost divided by procured units is not the right measure. The flyaway cost for the next unit to be ordered is waht counts.I htink the F3
77 Post contains links DEVILFISH : Be that as it may, the initial acquisition costs would need to be amortized over a shorter period, and I'm not very optimistic that the unit flyaway
78 PPVRA : On the other hand, perhaps getting more conventional planes (for our conventional threats) and spend money on upgrading systems and other electronic
79 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : Perhaps, this is a sign that they're working on it now?..... http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi....RV8T8MOa9dUAAFVAhVE&modele=jdc_34 Brazil sounds
80 Post contains links DEVILFISH : And here is France's response..... Quote: France ready to sell submarines, jets to Brazil: Sarkozy http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...In8AAAEAABY
81 PPVRA : From what I know we are going with the IKL-214, and supposedly that's pretty much already a done deal. I doubt we'll see Scorpenes. I guess they shou
82 A342 : The higher-thrust engine isn't in production at this point, but they can do it very quickly.
83 Baron95 : Is the Mirage 2000-BR still the lead contender on this deal? I know the French proposed local build by Embraer and total tech transfer (their terminol
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