Lumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 23 Posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 6709 times:
Quote: WASHINGTON (AP) -- L-3 Communications Holdings Inc. on Wednesday beat out rival Raytheon Co. to win a Pentagon contract worth up to $2 billion to build cargo planes for the military.
A senior advisory panel at the Pentagon picked a team led by New York-based L-3 to build 78 C-27J Spartan cargo planes by 2013, replacing the military's aging light cargo aircraft, senior Army and Air Force officials said.
Analysts expected L-3's team, which includes Italian partner Finmeccanica SpA's subsidiary Alenia North America Inc., Boeing Co. and Global Military Aircraft Systems to beat Raytheon. The Waltham, Mass.-based company teamed up with CASA, a subsidiary of European Aeronautic Defense & Space Co. NV, and offered to build C-295s.
While both companies make twin-engine turboprop planes, L-3's C-27J is considered larger, heavier and more technologically advanced than the C-295.
I had expected this aircraft to be selected since it is the (1) more robust of the two contenders and (2) engine commonality with the C-130J. Big win for Alenia, L3, and Boeing.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
FlagshipAZ From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3419 posts, RR: 18 Reply 2, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 6689 times:
It's a good call. The C-27J had been my personal choice for the US Army. The C-295 is not exactly the loser in this contest...the US Coast Guard has several on order for their long-range patrol fleet. I consider this a win-win situation. The Army is getting the C-27J, and the Coast Guard will keep alive the C-295 program for a few more years.
Both aircraft remind me of the old reliable C-123 Provider.
Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
Ulfinator From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 301 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6652 times:
I hate to sound so cynical but when is Raytheon going to file start filing protests. It seems that it is the normal thing to do after losing in a competition.
Lumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 23 Reply 4, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6650 times:
Quoting Ulfinator (Reply 3): I hate to sound so cynical but when is Raytheon going to file start filing protests.
Good question. I was going to end my post with something like "stand by for the inevitable protest", but I didn't want to sound...well, cynical.
The real surprise is not the selection of the C-27J but if the Raytheon/EADS team decides NOT to file a protest.
LMP737 From United States of America, joined May 2002, 4459 posts, RR: 27 Reply 5, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6629 times:
Good to hear. With the capablities of the C-27J along with obvious similarities with the C-130J it's a good choice. Wonder what the final production plans are.
DL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11372 posts, RR: 88 Reply 6, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6623 times:
The synergies between the C-27 and the 130 are hard to ignore, and that airplane is really an incredible performer (Aerobalance and I watched as one basically looped over our heads last summer) and it's got the capacity the Army needs.
It's very good to see them moving forward with this project....we haven't had a real tactical transport in the USA for a long while...not since the Caribous. Sherpa's are good airplanes but they ain't built for the kind of abuse they're taking on a regular basis.
DEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4103 posts, RR: 2 Reply 7, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6589 times:
Yessss, and about time too! These birds are badly needed. I was expecting them to announce the selection in Paris, but I guess that might be a little unseemly. The Paris Air Show would be a nice gathering to trumpet the win, though.
Quoting Lumberton (Reply 4): The real surprise is not the selection of the C-27J but if the Raytheon/EADS team decides NOT to file a protest.
Now, wouldn't it be a bummer if they chose to do that (the protest, I mean) in Paris? Anyhow, they could no longer totally truthfully say "It was not from here or there."
The folks at Mobile, AL and Ft. Rucker would be very pleased.
Hooray for "Li'l Spooky" (although that may only be in my imagination.)
L-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 28959 posts, RR: 66 Reply 8, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 6562 times:
About Bloody Time. Those Sherpa's are getting worn out and the AKANG where threatening to pick up the Spartans on their own.
Even the Air Force up here lost there Herks a couple of months ago, so we are hurting.
Elemendorf just got their first C-17 yesterday but that is hardly the same sized aircraft and suitable for Army support missions in remote Alaska.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
FlagshipAZ From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3419 posts, RR: 18 Reply 9, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 6555 times:
You mean we could see some C-27Js in Alaska??? Hot damn! Now that's some news for the eyes here. Love them props on the Spartan. Forts Richardson & Wainwright should be pleased about that news, if they get a few to shuttle back & forth.
Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
Ozair From UK - England, joined Jan 2005, 578 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6549 times:
Great news, it really is a great aircraft and will be the new workhorse.
This wins paves the way for the RAAF selection in two years time. We like to have interchangeable equipment with the US and the C-27 is the closest we can find as a replacement for the Caribou.
AeroWeanie From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1588 posts, RR: 54 Reply 11, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6545 times:
Another reason for choosing the C-27: an older version (the C-27A) of it has already been in service with the USAF. Southern Command bought 10 of them in 1990. They relinquished them in 1999 and now the State Department operates most of them.
Erj-145mech From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 306 posts, RR: 1 Reply 12, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6515 times:
Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 7): The folks at Mobile, AL and Ft. Rucker would be very pleased.
Why Mobile? The aircraft will be built in Italy and outfitted in Waco, TX.
This is from defenselink.net:
CONTRACTS
ARMY
L-3 Communications Integrated Systems, L.P., of Greenville, Texas, was awarded a firm-fixed price contract June 13, 2007, estimated at $2.04 billion for procurement of up to 78 Joint Cargo Aircraft (C-27J Spartan). This includes pilot and loadmaster training, and contractor logistics support for the United States Army and Air Force. The contract consists of three 12-month ordering periods for Low-Rate Initial Production and two 12-month options for Full-Rate Production. Four bids were received under the full and open competition in response to the March 17, 2006, request for proposals. Work in the United States will be performed at Waco, Texas. Aircraft manufacture will occur in Italy. Work is to be completed by June 30, 2012. The U.S. Army Aviation and Missile Command at Redstone Arsenal, Ala., is the contracting activity (W58RGZ-07-0099).
777 From Italy, joined Sep 2005, 444 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6495 times:
Wow, I'm too happy to hear this news!
Yesterday evening I checked the news late in the night and some minutes before midnight the expected news appears on the TV... I did exactly the same thing some years ago when the US-101 won the dig deal for the new presidential copter....
This time I would like to pay my tribute to the man that, decades ago, conceived the G-222 (the forefather of the C-27) and many other a/c (included the mythical G- 91 Gina): Giuseppe Gabrielli
Lumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 23 Reply 16, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 6445 times:
Quote: he finalists were a familiar duo. EADS-CASA partnered with Raytheon; their C-295M has a longer fuselage for more cargo pallets, comes with a nifty pallet loading system, and is cheaper to maintain and fly, but lacks the internal dimensions and/or floor strength required for tactical loads like Humvees, small helicopters, et. al. Wins include Spain, Algeria, Brazil, Finland, Jordan, Poland, and Portugal. Alenia, meanwhile, partnered with L-3 Communications and Boeing to offer the C-27J Spartan, aka. "Baby Herc" due to its profile, engine, and avionics commonality with the C-130J Hercules. EADS-CASA claims the C-27J's fuel and maintenance needs give it operational costs that are over 50% more expensive than the C-295's, but C-130J commonality may bring those numbers down slightly and the C-27J's internal dimensions and floor strength give it the flexibility to carry light tactical loads. Wins include Italy, Greece (who had some issues but appears to have resolved them), Bulgaria, Lithuania, and Romania.
Surprisingly, word was that the US Army wanted the C-295 despite its tactical limitations, and the USAF wanted the C-27J despite is operating and maintenance costs. The decision was expected in March 2007, but it seems we now have a winner. And the winner is...
If the rumors are true, the USAF got its way - and the Army got more tactical flexibility. The GMAS team's C-27J "Baby Herc" will replace the U.S. Army's C-23 Sherpas, C-12 (based on the Beechcraft King Air twin turboprop) and C-26 Metroliner (based on the Fairchild Metro 23 twin turboprop) aircraft, and augment the U.S. Air Forces' aging and partly-grounded fleet of C-130E/H intratheater airlifters. In practice, it will also replace a number missions that are currently being executed using very expensive to operate CH-47 helicopters as in-theater supply aircraft.
The new Joint Cargo Aircraft will be in high demand from the first day they're delivered. The USAF has been making extensive use of intra-theater transports, and even C-17s with their short-field landing capabilities, in order to reduce the number of road supply convoys in Iraq. Meanwhile, state National Guard forces who have seen their air transport assets dwindle and C-130s are based elsewhere in realignments or just not flyable will be clamoring to host C-27Js, whose short-field landing capabilities will be very welcome in the disaster relief role.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
Papoose From Italy, joined Sep 2006, 28 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6415 times:
Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 14): Damn i hoped the C-295 would win it looks just much better then the ugly Spartan. However i think the Spartan as being heavier may fit better.
Even the AV8 looks better than the ugly A-10... Which it is the better for CAS?
Sphealey From United States of America, joined May 2005, 345 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6367 times:
Color me confused: I thought the C-27J was co-marketed with Lockheed. How did Boeing suddenly get in there?
Lumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 23 Reply 19, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6355 times:
Quoting Sphealey (Reply 18): thought the C-27J was co-marketed with Lockheed.
Not sure, but didn't Lockheed throw a fit when it tried to market the C-130J for this competition and the U.S. Army said it was too big? Maybe they took their ball and went home?
As for Boeing, they joined the team last year.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
Quote:
"November 27 , 2006
C-27J SUCCESSFULLY COMPLETES THE US ARMY & AIR FORCE EARLY USER SURVEY, THEN FLIES TO CECIL FIELD -- SITE WHERE NEW AIRLIFTER WILL BE BUILT IF TEAM WINS MULTI-BILLION DOLLAR COMPETITION"
Quoting Lumberton (Reply 19): As for Boeing, they joined the team last year.
Lumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 23 Reply 21, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 6256 times:
DL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11372 posts, RR: 88 Reply 22, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 6256 times:
Quoting Papoose (Reply 17): Even the AV8 looks better than the ugly A-10... Which it is the better for CAS?
Well, if there is a choice I'd rather have the A-10 for it's greater payload and longer loiter ability. However the real answer is whichever can get there "fustest with the mostest".
Quoting Sphealey (Reply 18): Color me confused: I thought the C-27J was co-marketed with Lockheed. How did Boeing suddenly get in there?
It was originally a joint project which Lockheed backed out of and was replaced by L3 (which is composed of divisions spun off from Lockheed in the late 90s).
DL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11372 posts, RR: 88 Reply 23, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 6249 times:
BTW...if it hasn't already been stated....they're going to be built at the old Cecil Field complex in JAX.
GDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 12357 posts, RR: 83 Reply 24, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 6211 times:
A very wise choice for what is shaping up to be a pretty outstanding aircraft, (and I think it looks good, handsome is as handsome does).
Similarity with C-130J, which of course the rationale for the C-27 concept to modernise the G.222 it's derived from.
(I've not seen a C-27 is the metal, but have fond memories of outstanding Italian AF aerobatic displays of G.222 back in the 80's at airshows).
25 Sphealey: >> Color me confused: I thought the C-27J was co-marketed >> with Lockheed. How did Boeing suddenly get in there? > It was originally a joint project
26 DEVILFISH: There seems to be some confusion with regards to that - as the ff. posts indicate..... This comment in DID might give a clue..... Quote: "'The JCA Pr
27 BHMBAGLOCK: Not in Mobile, the C-295 was to be built at the new EADS site at Brookley. They're actually pretty bummed right about now.
28 AutoThrust: Well the A-10 isnt that ugly as the Spartan IMO. Of course i assume the A-10 must be better.
29 DEVILFISH: Please see Replies 20 and 26. Perhaps GMAS will issue a clarification as to where majority of the C-27J manufacturing work would be located during th
30 PADSpot: What's the price for a C-27J compared to a C-130J? I'd guess about 50Mil$ for the C-27J and about 70-80Mil$ for the Herc ???
31 Sinlock: Take a look here to see her in action........... Barrel roll............ http://www.flightlevel350.com/aviati...s.php?airplane=Alenia+C-27+Spartan
32 Keesje: Another one in Action (G555) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDfW5ub_yos
33 3DPlanes: Well this should be interesting... Everyone here in Jax is certainly expecting that final assembly will take place at Cecil (VQQ) - and that includes
34 DEVILFISH: Here's the Air Force's statement regarding the C-27J's selection..... http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...E38AAAEAAF4aKOcAAAAH&modele=jdc_34 Quote:
35 DEVILFISH: That indeed seemed to be the general idea, although this article from last year indicated finish work and painting would be done by L3 in Waco..... h
36 R2rho: If this is true, I don't understand it. Being a tactical transport, the vast majority of the missions it will perform will be for the Army. And the m
37 Atmx2000: I think that mentality was based on the need to deliver large numbers of troops and equipment into large theaters of operation such as NATO countries
38 R2rho: I agree. I'm not at all critizing or saying it was the wrong thing, just wanted to clarify that. It was just a general statement. The needs of the US
39 777: Last Tuesday I was at Le Bourget and it was quite impressive to see how Finmeccanica acted as "Winner of the Year". In fact the had probably the large
41 Dougloid: Wish I was there! Youse guys have all the fun. Howevah....I may just make the trip west for the first B787 flight. I saw the first MD11 and C17 fligh
42 DEVILFISH: Well, here is the answer..... http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...s-airlifter-contract-to-c-27j.html Quote: "Raytheon has decided to officially pr
43 Dougloid: Buncha crybabies. That's like complaining when you are trying to sell a Ford Escort with dog dish hubcaps and cardboard door liners to a guy who need
44 DEVILFISH: That may be so, but how would the protest affect the Army's plan to order the first two frames off the line? Will they have to postpone ordering, or
45 Ulfinator: Doh!!! I hate the fact that was right!
46 UH60FtRucker: God damn it. The military ought to make companies bidding for contracts sign a waiver saying they won't launch these silly protests and complaints. A
47 HanginOut: UH60FtRucker, I agree with you. The most important thing should be the troops in the field, but sadly, the corporations care more about their market
48 Lumberton: They protest because the procurement regulations provide them the opportunity and it costs them little compared to the cost of losing the contract. T
49 GDB: While I understand that bidders have a right to contend the results of a procurement choice, is this not getting out of hand? The first major one I re
50 Lumberton: Yes. Absent some bureaucratic obfuscation on the part of GAO, or some heavy political pressure from the losing congressional delegation, I'd expect t
51 Atmx2000: Funny thing though, Alenia is also now complaining about the Canadian selection of the C-130J. http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?C...9c7f0f-47c7-4fb
52 Lumberton: Raytheon outlining their reasons for their protest. Guess the government's defense will be "best value". http://yahoo.reuters.com/news/articl...55_N27
53 Thorny: So does Alenia only want 80% of the contract? Or is the other 20% of the jobs Canada needs done just supposed to be ignored?
54 Papoose: Since exists the flight refuelling I think is not a problem to loiter. Even if, Thunderbolts with their TF-34s low bypass are less thirsty than the A
55 Lumberton: Raytheon's protest has been denied. http://www.reuters.com/article/marke...sNews/idUKN2740573620070927?rpc=44
56 DEVILFISH: Great. Now this can really fly!..... http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...tica-c-27j-spartan-as-it-desc.html Can't wait for Li'l Spook.
57 Curt22: At the very least...losing contenders who chose to protest should be held financially responsible for the government's (Taxpayer) expenses should the
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These birds are badly needed. I was expecting them to announce the selection in Paris, but I guess that might be a little unseemly. The Paris Air Show would be a nice gathering to trumpet the win, though.
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