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Source: Iran Seeks MiG-29/31 And 250 Su-30MK's  
User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Posted (6 years 10 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 22611 times:

Per Aviation Week's Day Four recap of the Paris Air Show, Syria is going to be acquiring MiG-31E's via Iranian funding and Iran themselves could very well be acquring both MiG-31E's as well as brand new MiG-29M/M2 aircraft via Belarus so the bill of sale will not be listed as Iran being the ultimate end user so as to get around the West's objections.

Reports also state that Iran is close to signing a huge order for 250 Su-30Mk's with Russia's Rosobornoexport (ROE) to replace all their 1970's US combat aircraft which might include licensed production rights to produce their own; this would be the largest single order for the aircraft ever. However, this version includes French Thales avionics and they might not be willing to sell them anything given the current nuclear issue with pretty much everyone else in the world save Russia and China - but I would imagine that would not be a huge deal breaker and they would acquire something comparable to get the deal done.

http://www.aviationweek.com/shownews/

Needless to say where there is smoke there is usually fire and this only reiterates my opinion that Russia is of little friend to the West. I have the utmost respect and actually like the MiG-29 and Su-27/30 quite a lot, but with Putin it's "once KGB, always KGB." Iran with all of these aircraft would go from a second string minor league Air Force to a highly capable and lethal power as soon as they received all the new aircraft and trained their pilots on them (which back when they were trained via US pilots and doctrine were actually fairly good pilots per the 8 year Iran/Iraq War - however would still be of little comparison to US or Israeli pilots, though.)

[Edited 2007-06-22 05:08:54]

54 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSovietjet From Bulgaria, joined Mar 2003, 2519 posts, RR: 17
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 22609 times:
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Business is business....

While I am happy to see such a success for both the Mig-31 and Su-30, it is not going into the right hands...


User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4696 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 22592 times:

Does Iran currently operate Russian combat trainers? If so, that could be a clue where some of the undisclosed 82 Yak-130 trainers are headed. A combination that may be of concern.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...214928/new-orders-for-yak-130.html

New orders for Yak-130

Quote:
"The Yak-130 combat trainer has racked up another 82 firm orders to add to the 76 already announced for the Algerian and Russian Air Forces, says Oleg Demchenko, president of Irkut Corp. Although the customers are not being disclosed for the time being, they all come from countries that are currently operating Russian combat trainers, he says."

A previous post in another thread had also indicated the Yak-130 being selected.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlinePtrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3884 posts, RR: 19
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 22485 times:

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 2):
Does Iran currently operate Russian combat trainers?

Such as? The Russians have hardly produced any between the MiG-15UTI and Yak-130.



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12061 posts, RR: 52
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 3 days ago) and read 22411 times:

Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 1):
Business is business....

While I am happy to see such a success for both the Mig-31 and Su-30, it is not going into the right hands...

So why are the Russians still doing business with the Iranians? I thought Russia supported scanctions of military equipment to Iran, at the UN. They just didn't support scanctions against the nuke "power plants".


User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 19
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 22392 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4):
So why are the Russians still doing business with the Iranians? I thought Russia supported scanctions of military equipment to Iran, at the UN. They just didn't support scanctions against the nuke "power plants".

Between what the Soviets say and what they do there's often a big difference...
Of course they want sanctions against Iran, knowing even France will obey the UN.
It leaves them with an easier market to open up, and create (or so they hope) a new satellite state on their southern border, poised to close down the flow of oil to Japan and most of the flow to Europe and the US whenever Moscow wants to.

Of course the Iranians also know how to double cross others...



I wish I were flying
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 22309 times:

I think the region can do without 250 Su-30´s..

The SU30MKi has a huge radar, huge warload, range & unsurpassed agility. Previous (non thrust vectoring) MK proved comfortable with F15s. Saudi Arabia, Israel and many others will not allow Iran to get their hands on 250..



Maybe the Persians /Russians think Israel will get F22´s & they want to give a signal..


User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 22275 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 6):
I think the region can do without 250 Su-30´s..

You can take comfort in the fact that even if the Iranians do buy them, they've got to stage, maintain, fly, and fight them as well, and they'll be getting the down market version with the dog dish hubcaps and the cardboard door liners.

So they might well be rather expensive flyover material when Ahmadinejad is doing some hysterical adolescent chest thumping at the next Revolution Day parade, look good on the recruiting posters and all, but having a capability and being able to execute on it are two entirely different things.


User currently offlineMCIGuy From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1936 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 22139 times:

On one hand I'm not worried because as capable as these aircraft are, and they are capable, they are no match for a true 5th generation jet fighter. Raptors and dare I say, Lightnings would have a field day. On the other hand, I agree that this is just more evidence that the Soviets, er, Russians, are no friends of ours.  Wink


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User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 22111 times:

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 8):
they are no match for a true 5th generation jet fighter. Raptors and dare I say, Lightnings would have a field day.

I think militairy planners in the region are less comfortable then you. Similar aircraft were delivered to India & China but those are considered reasonable states.

The SU-30 huge nose houses an enormous phased array radar. It can can track and fire on a F15 from 100nm.



Apart from that it has a good range and huge war load and budy budy refill packs are available.

I simply fail to see why e.g. a Lightning would have a field day.


User currently offlineMCIGuy From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1936 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 22082 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 9):
Apart from that it has a good range and huge war load and budy budy refill packs are available.

I simply fail to see why e.g. a Lightning would have a field day.

Regardless of what you've been told, stealth is a better asset than it's often given credit for. The Raptor's and the Lightning's LO is a generation, even two generations ahead of the F-117 and B-2. It's simple, you can't shoot what you can't see. Not to metention, as soon as the poor bastard in the Sukhoi starts beaming RF around like there's no tomorrow he's going to be in big trouble. Remember, the Raptor and Lightning don't have to turn on their own radars to get a vector and a firing solution, big advantage. The TV Indian SU-30 MKI's cleaned up on our F-15s on excercise, but of course the ROEs wouldn't allow the Eagles to use AAMRAM, a fact that's often left out. I know of one engagement with NO ROEs where one Raptor mopped the floor with eight, count 'em, eight Vipers. The Raptor was guns only by the end and the last Viper driver said the only threat warning he got was a glint of sunlight off the Raptor's skin, right before he died.  Wink



Airliners.net Moderator Team
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4696 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 22063 times:

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 3):

Such as? The Russians have hardly produced any between the MiG-15UTI and Yak-130.

They also have the MiG AT on offer, but so far, it seems none has been ordered yet.....

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Photo © Fyodor Borisov - Russian AviaPhoto Team


http://www.flightglobal.com/articles.../214982/from-russia-with-love.html

Quote:
"and MiG’s trainer series: the MiG-29UB, MiG-29KUB and MiG-AT. Yakovlev has brought its Yak-130, which can be used as either a trainer or as a light combat aircraft."

Anyway, the question was specifically about Iran's operation of (any) Russian combat trainer, although the FI report could (in error) have meant the MiG-29 or Su-25.

However, the IIAF evidently have Russian combat aircraft courtesy of the Iraqis.....

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Photo © Arash Naghib-Lahouti



Quoting Jwenting (Reply 5):
Of course the Iranians also know how to double cross others...

Which leads to this suspicion.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...31s-mig35s-for-1-billion/index.php

Quote:
"The paper adds that this amount raises questions, noting the likelihood that the deal is being financed by Iran as a back-door purchase. ....

In response, Russian authorities have issued non-denial denials.

Russia's Foreign Ministry spokesman Mikhail Kamynin said in a statement that '...all of Russia's deals in the sphere of military-technical cooperation comply with international law and Russia's obligations under various treaties and United Nations resolutions.' Since none of those obligation prohibit sales to Syria, this response is utterly meaningless.

Sergei Chemezov, head of state arms-trading monopoly Rosoboronexport, is quoted as saying that 'Russia has no plans to deliver fighter jets to Syria and Iran.' Of course, a sale of fighter jets only to Syria would comply with this statement - and if the Syrians choose to send them to Iran, that concerns Syria's plans and not Russia's."



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 22044 times:

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 11):
Which leads to this suspicion.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...31s-mig35s-for-1-billion/index.php

Quote:
"The paper adds that this amount raises questions, noting the likelihood that the deal is being financed by Iran as a back-door purchase. ....

In response, Russian authorities have issued non-denial denials.

Russia's Foreign Ministry spokesman Mikhail Kamynin said in a statement that '...all of Russia's deals in the sphere of military-technical cooperation comply with international law and Russia's obligations under various treaties and United Nations resolutions.' Since none of those obligation prohibit sales to Syria, this response is utterly meaningless.

Sergei Chemezov, head of state arms-trading monopoly Rosoboronexport, is quoted as saying that 'Russia has no plans to deliver fighter jets to Syria and Iran.' Of course, a sale of fighter jets only to Syria would comply with this statement - and if the Syrians choose to send them to Iran, that concerns Syria's plans and not Russia's."

On one hand I'm sort of excited in a perverse sort of way because I really like the Su-30MK's, MiG-29M2's, and really like the dual role capability (training and combat) of the Yak-130, but I often wonder if WWII would not have been better settled had the "Allies" negoitated Russia to the Germans and China to the Japanese?!

Even at a point where Russia were suppossedly allied with the US and the West, Russia literally stole US B-29's that made emergency diversions there while conducting ops against Japan and reverse-engineered 847 Tu-4's which were essentially carbon-copy Boeing B-29's - I still say that Russia owes Boeing Billions for copy-right infringement!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/af/TU-4-MONIN0.jpg/800px-TU-4-MONIN0.jpg

[Edited 2007-06-24 02:41:11]

User currently offlinePtrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3884 posts, RR: 19
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 22029 times:

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 12):
I often wonder if WWII would not have been better settled had the "Allies" negoitated Russia to the Germans and China to the Japanese?!

What a scandalous, perverse remark... Russia was largely what Germany was fighting for, and China was largely wat Japan was fighting for... so you're saying the Western Allies should not have resisted the fascists.

I know that Stalin and Mao killed millions, but do you think the Russian and Chinese peoples would have been better off under Nazi and Japanese rule? And that America would have been better off? Because the Russians owe Boeing a few bucks?  crazy 

Peter



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineBigJKU From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 873 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 22023 times:

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 10):
The TV Indian SU-30 MKI's cleaned up on our F-15s on excercise, but of course the ROEs wouldn't allow the Eagles to use AAMRAM, a fact that's often left out. I know of one engagement with NO ROEs where one Raptor mopped the floor with eight, count 'em, eight Vipers. The Raptor was guns only by the end and the last Viper driver said the only threat warning he got was a glint of sunlight off the Raptor's skin, right before he died. Wink

This cannot be stated enough to Keesje. If I make the rules of engagement so that each side has to use its own radar or visual contact to engage then yes, the F-15, F-22 ect are all vulnerable.

However if I throw a USAF force with an AWACs, tanker support, B-2's, TLAM and F-15's against what the average nation has, ie anyone but Russia basically, then I have a huge advantage. I can force you to sortie when I want to as I am on the offensive. I can see further than you and I can do it without letting you know where my shooters are.

All the fighters in the world are great but call me once you get the full setup going. A few guys in some high performance machines can be quickly overwhelmed by professionals.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16693 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 22011 times:

Quoting BigJKU (Reply 14):
However if I throw a USAF force with an AWACs, tanker support, B-2's, TLAM and F-15's against what the average nation has, ie anyone but Russia basically, then I have a huge advantage. I can force you to sortie when I want to as I am on the offensive. I can see further than you and I can do it without letting you know where my shooters are.

And if those Su-30s are over the gulf they are targets for Aegis Destroyers, the Aegis's SM-2 missiles can hit airborne targets 115 miles away.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 21980 times:

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 13):
What a scandalous, perverse remark... Russia was largely what Germany was fighting for, and China was largely wat Japan was fighting for... so you're saying the Western Allies should not have resisted the fascists.

I know that Stalin and Mao killed millions, but do you think the Russian and Chinese peoples would have been better off under Nazi and Japanese rule? And that America would have been better off? Because the Russians owe Boeing a few bucks?

Peter

In retrospect, yes - but hindsight is always 20/20 and who knows what could have been the other way around. However, consider the impact USSR/Russia has had since WWII, from their involvement in the Korean and Vietnam conflicts let alone the entire Cold War, not to mention arming the entire "indigent" world of everything from assualt rifles to tanks and fighter jets that have literally "armed" the Middle East today as we know it - and than there is China, wow their (negative) mark on the world and it's future is only just beginning (consumption, population, economy, military power and infulence, etc.) As far as Hitler or Stalin is concerned, I don't see how you can rate one any better than the other.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 15):
And if those Su-30s are over the gulf they are targets for Aegis Destroyers, the Aegis's SM-2 missiles can hit airborne targets 115 miles away.

Even with a modern military modernization upgrade by Iran but even more so now and before any such upgrades, all the US would have to do is cross the border calling Iran's bluff and forcing them into a fundamentally conventional military engagement, and the US military would crush any and every piece of military hardware Iran could mobilize. Iran's Navy would be destroyed within days and mostly while in port. The only thing right now that can possibly threaten the might of a modern competent military along the lines of the US Military is unconventional military warfare a.k.a. terrorism - but one can only hide so long before sooner or later paitence is exhausted and everything a la WWII is destroyed in order to accomplish the mission. War isn't supposed to be pretty.


User currently offlineSovietjet From Bulgaria, joined Mar 2003, 2519 posts, RR: 17
Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 21963 times:
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Why is it that everytime a nation purchases new jets it always has to be squared off against the USA? Of course any nation in the world would lose against the USA, be it Iran or Britain or Israel(this is hypothetical of course as the last two are obviously not going to engage the USA). I think for the purpose of LOCAL conflict those Su-30s are a great tool. Name one country in the vicinity of Iran that can counter 250 Su-30s.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 16):
Even with a modern military modernization upgrade by Iran but even more so now and before any such upgrades, all the US would have to do is cross the border calling Iran's bluff and forcing them into a fundamentally conventional military engagement, and the US military would crush any and every piece of military hardware Iran could mobilize. Iran's Navy would be destroyed within days and mostly while in port. The only thing right now that can possibly threaten the might of a modern competent military along the lines of the US Military is unconventional military warfare a.k.a. terrorism - but one can only hide so long before sooner or later paitence is exhausted and everything a la WWII is destroyed in order to accomplish the mission. War isn't supposed to be pretty.

Right...just like how the USA is winning in Iraq right now  Yeah sure.


User currently offlineCaptOveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 21956 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4):
So why are the Russians still doing business with the Iranians?

Umm.. Money.. Iran has it, Russia wants it. Russia doesn't care about UN sanctions, they know the UN is just a debating society. Watch out Russia, the UN might pass a resolution condemning your actions.


User currently offlinePtrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3884 posts, RR: 19
Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 21927 times:

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 16):
In retrospect, yes

Of course we're talking in retrospect.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 16):
However, consider the impact USSR/Russia has had since WWII

Yes, WWII launched the USSR as a superpower, and you may regret that in retrospect, but preferring Nazi Germany and imperialist Japan as superpowers... wow.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 16):
and than there is China, wow their (negative) mark on the world and it's future is only just beginning (consumption, population, economy, military power and infulence, etc.)

Now you're blaming China for having one billion Chinese... Yes, under Japanese rule there might have been less.... Nice.



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 21904 times:

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 12):
Even at a point where Russia were suppossedly allied with the US and the West, Russia literally stole US B-29's that made emergency diversions there while conducting ops against Japan and reverse-engineered 847 Tu-4's which were essentially carbon-copy Boeing B-29's - I still say that Russia owes Boeing Billions for copy-right infringement!

I think many here still have the cold war in their heads. Anything the russians make must be inferior or copied  Big grin

If you do a search on this subject you´ll find out the russians did dozens of original designs that even the blindest patriot can not attribute to western design or say they are inferior. Adjust to the new moreobjective reality.

All it takes is the will to cross that road..
http://www.richard-seaman.com/Aircra...seums/Monino/Highlights/index.html


User currently offlineWithaK From Australia, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 255 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 21893 times:

Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 17):
Why is it that everytime a nation purchases new jets it always has to be squared off against the USA? Of course any nation in the world would lose against the USA, be it Iran or Britain or Israel(this is hypothetical of course as the last two are obviously not going to engage the USA). I think for the purpose of LOCAL conflict those Su-30s are a great tool. Name one country in the vicinity of Iran that can counter 250 Su-30s.

As you implied the USA possesses the strongest air force in the world. If you are buying military hardware and have any remote chance of having to face of with the US such as Iran does you would take this fact into account.

If there was a local conflict who would Iran likely to be fighting? Israel. If these two nations were to start fighting what country would likely get involved? The USA.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 20):
I think many here still have the cold war in their heads. Anything the russians make must be inferior or copied

Are you trying to deny that the Tu-4 was a copy of the B-29? No one is denying that the Russians came up with many great, original and unique aircraft all by themselves. The link you provided proved that point (shame the only Ekranoplan shown was the Beriev VVA-14) but to say that the Russians didn't blatantly copy western hardware is a joke. If I remember correctly they also copied British jet engines and attempted to copy the U2.

WithaK


User currently offlinePtrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3884 posts, RR: 19
Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 21883 times:

Quoting WithaK (Reply 21):
Are you trying to deny that the Tu-4 was a copy of the B-29? No one is denying that the Russians came up with many great, original and unique aircraft all by themselves

Some people (not you and probably not AirRyan) ARE still denying that, always coming up with the Tu-4 to prove it.
The Tu-4 was a blatant copy of course, but it is a pretty unique case. It was done on Stalin's orders, Tupolev didn't like it.
Some other aircraft may have been inspired by other aircraft, but adopting ideas happens everywhere all the time.

Quoting WithaK (Reply 21):
they also copied British jet engines

Well, they got a legal license for the Derwent and Nene if that's what you mean.

Quoting WithaK (Reply 21):
and attempted to copy the U2.


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You mean this thing? Try to design a plane that can get up to 71,788 ft and does NOT look remotely like the U-2. Form just follows function. This wasn't even conceived as a recce aircraft, but to shoot down CIA recce balloons.



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineWithaK From Australia, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 255 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 10 months 1 day ago) and read 21868 times:

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 22):
Well, they got a legal license for the Derwent and Nene if that's what you mean.

Now, I know I'm quoting Wiki (I know naughty naughty but its late) so it may not be 100% accurate but here it is.

Quote:
By 1946, Soviet designers were finding it impossible to perfect the German-designed HeS-011 axial-flow jet engine, and new airframe designs from Mikoyan were threatening to outstrip development of the jet engines needed to power them. Soviet aviation minister Mikhail Khrunichev and aircraft designer Alexander Sergeyevich Yakovlev suggested to Joseph Stalin that the USSR buy advanced jet engines from the British. Stalin is said to have replied: "What fool will sell us his secrets?"[2] However, he gave his assent to the proposal and Artem Mikoyan, engine designer Vladimir Klimov, and others traveled to the United Kingdom to request the engines. To Stalin's amazement, the British Labour government and its pro-Soviet Minister of Trade, Sir Stafford Cripps, were perfectly willing to provide technical information and a license to manufacture the Rolls-Royce Nene centrifugal-flow jet engine, a move which even Russian sources have mocked. This engine was reverse-engineered and produced as the Soviet Klimov RD-45 jet engine, subsequently incorporated into the MiG-15.

With regards to the U2 copy I only heard this on a documentary once so take with a grain of salt. After a U2 was shot down over Russia the government ordered that what was left of the U2 be reverse engineered. What resulted was heavier than the U2 and far less capable.

I will look into both of these cases further in the morning and try to confirm or disprove what I have written above.

WithaK


User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 23 hours ago) and read 21851 times:

Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 17):
Right...just like how the USA is winning in Iraq right now

The US Military has yet to lose a single military engagement in either Iraq or Afghanistan yet - perhaps the beatnik liberal politicians aren't helping matters any by throwing the efforts in Iraq under the bus for their own personal political gain, but that's another story.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 18):
Russia doesn't care about UN sanctions, they know the UN is just a debating society

And quite adept at it they have become, too sort of a Master Debating Society the UN has become!

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 19):
Yes, WWII launched the USSR as a superpower, and you may regret that in retrospect, but preferring Nazi Germany and imperialist Japan as superpowers... wow.

I'm not asserting one over the other, just hypothesizing as all historians do...

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 22):
Quoting WithaK (Reply 21):
Are you trying to deny that the Tu-4 was a copy of the B-29? No one is denying that the Russians came up with many great, original and unique aircraft all by themselves

Some people (not you and probably not AirRyan) ARE still denying that, always coming up with the Tu-4 to prove it.
The Tu-4 was a blatant copy of course, but it is a pretty unique case. It was done on Stalin's orders, Tupolev didn't like it.
Some other aircraft may have been inspired by other aircraft, but adopting ideas happens everywhere all the time.

I was just trying to point out how when the Soviet Union and the US were alledgedly allied against Germany in WWII the Russians still did what they did with the B-29/Tu-4 so as to show that the Soviets have never really been "allies" with the US; as a former US Marine avionics tech I still beleive Russian avionics pale in comparison to that of the West but there is no doubt that Russia has created on their own accord numerous and signifcant aircraft from the MiG-15/21/29/31 to the Su-27/30/35 just to name a few - I'm a big fan of the Su-30MK for what it's worth.


25 BigJKU : Slightly overstated but on the surface true. The US military could overrun and wipe out the Iranian ability to threaten anyone outside of their borde
26 AirRyan : Exactly, that's all I am trying to convey - we did it in WWII when we thought our lives really depended upon it and let the terrorists and extremists
27 BarfBag : The IAF MKIs have never been authorized for active radar ops or DACT exercises against western forces, especially the USAF. It has been consistent IA
28 AirRyan : The rumors I always heard were that for the most part the USAF was simply trying to build a case for as many F-22's as they could get Congress to app
29 Dougloid : I dunno, I'm just not too worried about the Iranians. For all of Mr. Ahmineedashavebad's chest thumping, the measure of his military prowess and abil
30 Post contains images MCIGuy : Or could it be that the Eagle drivers were flying 30 year-old equipment? The USAF (and IDFAF) pilots are the most professional in the world, I don't
31 Keesje : I don´t think there have been many anyway during the last 25 yrs. The Russian like the west always made sure to not deliver "the best" equipment out
32 Sean1234 : What do guys think about the Russian S-400 SAMs? A good deployment of these could easily destroy an AWACS group.
33 Post contains images MCIGuy : We knew all about the rudimentary HMD's in the MiG-29. Hell, it was used in a video game in 1991. BTW, the AIM-9Xray is a direct result of the F-22 p
34 Mgoran : In Vietnam US Army won all or almost all battles and look how that ended. Problem in Vietnam was and problem in Iraq is that US government does not k
35 Wingman : The beatnik press is misleading the American public for their own political gain? Dude, you must be on fascist crack. We have 157,000 troops in Iraq c
36 Dougloid : I do not think there's a direct analogy and I do not believe it matters what, if anything, the soldiers know about the place they fight in. In VietNa
37 DeltaGuy : Why don't you keep your damned opinions to yourself on this board- the thread was in regards to Iran and their aquisition of new aircraft...not a spi
38 Wingman : But you're fine with the inane comments about the press being responsible for Iraq and discussion of WWII and Vietnam? This board is all about opnions
39 Mgoran : He he imagine the potential for a fight in a Persian Gulf when here people are fighting, fortunately with words only. I don't think Iran is going to
40 DeltaDC9 : There has been nnothing but the opposite impression coming out of DC for over a decade. Except for the atom bomb design they stole in the 50s, among
41 Mgoran : Soldiers maybe do not have to know about the place where they are fighting but they sure must know the culture and people in the place they are tryin
42 Dougloid : So you say. What about it is of benefit? Let's talk about specifics. What, for example, did the Soviets know about European culture and custom when t
43 Mgoran : What about Malaya and the creation of British tactics "war for the hearts and minds"? Algeria was a colony that did not wish to be a colony anymore a
44 DeltaGuy : I'm not fine with it, but your comment was way left field. The topic was regarding Iran's military capability...not your extreme left-wing status. De
45 Post contains links and images Dougloid : Where do you see any reference to "criminal acts of Allied soldiers" in Europe in this biography or how Yarborough was involved in any educational ef
46 Olle : Russia sees this as a way to get more power in the regsion. This is pretty obvious. But it might take time while they also need to be nice special wit
47 AirRyan : Cheney severed all of his financial ties with the company before he ran with Bush as the VP and once again, Haliburton was the only company who could
48 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : An A.Net b-day present for AirRyan. After more than a year, the report in Reply 11 is updated with some sort of confirmation..... http://www.defensein
49 JoeCanuck : Russia may be hoping for more control over the region but the middle east has so far resisted control from outside. Russia should be more concerned th
50 Bennett123 : First question is this; With these weapons, (the whole package) could Iran match the US/Russia or Israel. My understanding is No, No and No. I also do
51 Par13del : Anyone expect Russia to arm its neighbour with the same capable a/c? You answered your question much better than I. Careful there, some might interpr
52 Sovietjet : I thought Algeria also had Mig-25s.
53 Post contains links DEVILFISH : Of course, they wouldn't slip into the mix some of the MiG-29s that Algeria returned, would they? The report qualified it as "currently". This old Fl
54 Bennett123 : Par13del As I understand it, there is no reasonable dispute that Iraq had, (and used) these weapons against the Kurds in 1988/1989 (?) or against Iran
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