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Question - Salutes, Appropriate For Civilians?  
User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2453 posts, RR: 5
Posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

A curious question for you that have served. In a show of respect, is it appropriate for a civilian to salute? I've often wondered that if the scenario would ever occur where I would encounter some part of a ceremony for a fallen soldier, should I salute? Or is it more appropriate to place my hand on may chest?

Any input appreciated.

Regards


Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 1, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Saluting is generally reserved for uniformed individuals, by regulation, but since it's an acknowledgement and show of respect between warriors it is not unheard of for civilians to salute. It's more often that a uniformed individual will salute an out-of-uniform individual if they are off-duty or retired and the uniformed serviceman believes it to be warranted.

As far as I know the only two civilians who are entitled to a salute are the Secretary of Defence and the President, who are both legally in the chain of command. You'll see the Marine guards saluting the President as he disembarks AF or Marine 1, and you'll see uniformed servicemen saluting the SECDEF when they greet him.

When I'm in a situation (now as a civilian) where I feel it warranted (like when I met a MoH holder) I have saluted them, but it's rare. Usually when Taps or the National Anthem play I stand at attention and hold my hand over my heart.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineEchster From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 399 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

I'm retired Army so my answers are based on those pertinent regulations found in AR 600-25.

- Civilian personnel, to include civilian guards, are not required to render the hand salute to military personnel or other civilian personnel.

- From Table C-1, 3: All men wearing civilian clothes (military and civilian) (includes sports attire with headgear)

Each time casket is moved:

Outdoors: Stand at attention, remove headgear with right hand and hold over the left shoulder with right hand over heart.
Indoors: Stand.

- From Table C-1, 4: Military personnel and civilians in civilian dress without headgear. Personnel engaged in sports and attired in a sports uniform without headdress.

Each time casket is moved:

Outdoors: Stand at attention with right hand with right hand over heart.
Indoors: Stand at attention.

There are other courtesies that should be rendered by civilians on Army bases for Reveille, Retreat, Retreat with To The Colors, Retreat with the National Anthem, when uncased Colors pass by or when passing uncased Colors, and when there is a cannon salute but not a cannon salute to the Union or Nation.


User currently offlineCF188A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting PC12Fan (Thread starter):
A curious question for you that have served. In a show of respect, is it appropriate for a civilian to salute? I've often wondered that if the scenario would ever occur where I would encounter some part of a ceremony for a fallen soldier, should I salute? Or is it more appropriate to place my hand on may chest?

pending on the nation as well . Here in Canada civilians do not salute. I have walked downtown Toronto many times and gotten a few homeless individuals to randomly salute me but beyond that nothing. However uniformed soldiers do indeed salute senior officers who are in civies . Pends on the regiment etc. as well


User currently offlineDeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

In uniform I'll render a salute...but like DL021 said, in civilian attire I'll remain at attention, and put my hand over my heart for the national anthem. At a parade in civies you generally stand at attention as the flag mass passes you....most people fail to grasp this (all the new people watching their kids join the mil).

DeltaGuy


User currently offlineCancidas From Poland, joined Jul 2003, 4112 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

since leaving the army i haven't been in a situation that required a salute. when i worked on the ramp i would salute the crew after pushing them back but that was more to acknowledge they were clear to depart the ramp.


"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 6, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting PC12Fan (Thread starter):
In a show of respect

While it is a breach of the formal protocols, if it is actually out of respect and could not possibly be taken for sarcasm or mockery it would likely be received in the spirit it was rendered. If the intent was not respectful then it might be that the only thing keeping a fist out of your face is the military person's dignity and respect for the uniform he is wearing at the moment.

I went to a memorial service a while back in a civilian suit, without any lapel pins demarking any personal military honors. A friend there, a retired major, introduced me to two AF brigadier generals. They addressed me as "sir" and I accepted it, even though I had peaked out many paygrades below them. I addressed them as "sir" or "general" as well, at least once. They were gentleman enough to assume that I warranted the respect, I could judge by their uniforms that they did.

Nice thing about respect - you can give it away all you want and not lose any of your personal stores. It always comes back.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2453 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Thanks for the input guys.

My intent would not be to salute a soldier if I saw him walking in uniform in some random area. I personally don't think that is appropriate. But, if I came across a funeral procession (not looking for them, believe me) or a situation where a fallen soldier is flown home and I would encounter that procession, I feel it would be respectful to salute someone that definitely outranks me for the ultimate sacrifice.

Again, thanks for the input.



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlineCancidas From Poland, joined Jul 2003, 4112 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 7):
My intent would not be to salute a soldier if I saw him walking in uniform in some random area. I personally don't think that is appropriate. But, if I came across a funeral procession (not looking for them, believe me) or a situation where a fallen soldier is flown home and I would encounter that procession, I feel it would be respectful to salute someone that definitely outranks me for the ultimate sacrifice.

i don't see that as appropriate either. if you're ex-military then i could understand but i think that as a civilian you should not salute. i also don't think that any fallen soldier "out ranks" you because they did give thier lives.



"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2453 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Cancidas (Reply 8):

I didn't mean that as a cliche type of situation. Nor a thing to do to make me feel "I made a difference" kinda thing.

I am wondering if it would be acceptable to salute because it is a form of respect, and I personally think a salute means more to a soldier than my hand on my chest. But that's the whole point of me asking, and I want to know in case (again, not wanting to) I ever find myself in this situation. I want to do what is appropriate, but also from the heart.



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlineCF188A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

it is strictly a military sign of respect therefore civilians do not have the right to engage in it unless they have the proper qualifications and are involved in DND affairs. Veterans are exceptions of course but civilians should not be saluting those in the military or practicing any code of that sort.

User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 11, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Cancidas (Reply 8):
i don't see that as appropriate either. if you're ex-military then i could understand but i think that as a civilian you should not salute. i also don't think that any fallen soldier "out ranks" you because they did give thier lives.



Quoting CF188A (Reply 10):
it is strictly a military sign of respect therefore civilians do not have the right to engage in it unless they have the proper qualifications and are involved in DND affairs

I'm going to disagree with this based on intent. There is no law that proscribes you from saluting. As a member of a society that depends on the militia for it's first and final lines of defence...and the definition of militia including being the armed or able-bodied citizenry who can be organized into military units to defend the nation....then there is room for an honest and heartfelt salute to a professional soldier/warrior, from the citizenry eligible for drafted service, that he or she is or has defended.

Speaking from the heart here, I'd say that you should reserve it for the truly meaningful moments, and don't make it a habit. Most servicemen and women feel that they've earned the priviledge of giving and receiving salutes through their service and sacrifice. For almost all occasions a hand on the heart shows where you are coming from and will be taken as respect by the people to whom you are directing said respect.

Last thing on this....I signed up and served to defend your right to express yourself freely. If you want to salute, then go right ahead. It's your right.... specifically enumerated in the Constitution even....to express yourself. Just don't, for decency's sake, make a mockery of it or reduce its meaning by improper usage.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2453 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting DL021 (Reply 11):
Just don't, for decency's sake, make a mockery of it or reduce its meaning by improper usage.

Never would. Again, I just wanted to make sure that a gesture that I feel would express respect would not be offensive to the very people I am trying to honor.

Thanks for all input everyone. I have a good idea of what is appropriate in this case here and abroad.

Regards.



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlineCF188A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting DL021 (Reply 11):
Most servicemen and women feel that they've earned the priviledge of giving and receiving salutes through their service and sacrifice

agreed and this is why I feel it should be used STRICTLY between military personnel. I am sometimes saluted by civilians ... I do not rip their heads off .I just say "thank you". The hand over heart does not really happen here in Canada as often compared to the United States. I usually see veterans saluting during national memorials , airshows. etc.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 11):
Last thing on this....I signed up and served to defend your right to express yourself freely. If you want to salute, then go right ahead

yes but there is still common sense and respect. I signed up to defend the rights and freedoms Canada. I guess we could also compare this to a situation where a civilian is wearing a modern, present day, military uniform out of respect? There are some things you should just "not" do. To me the greatest sign of respect is a "thank y ou" on the street , which I receive quite often , or large turnouts during national salutes.


User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2453 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting CF188A (Reply 13):
yes but there is still common sense and respect. I signed up to defend the rights and freedoms Canada. I guess we could also compare this to a situation where a civilian is wearing a modern, present day, military uniform out of respect? There are some things you should just "not" do. To me the greatest sign of respect is a "thank you" on the street , which I receive quite often , or large turnouts during national salutes.

I completely understand you point sir. I would not wear a uniform of any branch if I was not serving. To me, that is a mockery. If I saw you on the streets, you would get that meaningful "thank you" and that would be the end of it. Until I saw you again!  Smile

But I hope you understand my original point, if I ever encountered a ceremony for a fallen soldier, in my heart, a salute is the most respectful thing I could think of to honor him/her. They gave their life, it's the least I could do. I'm not trying to "justify" my potential action with a salute, I just want know what is most appropriate if I ever encounter that situation. God forbid I do.

Regards.



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlineWrenchBender From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 1779 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting CF188A (Reply 13):
this is why I feel it should be used STRICTLY between military personnel

How about police forces, fire departments, EMS etc all are uniformed and most have a rank hierarchy that also includes saluting as a means of paying respect.
The paying of respects to a funeral procession or ceremony is as simple as standing and removing your hat as they pass by. If in uniform (with head dress) one shall salute the hearse as it passes by, is being loaded or unloaded.

WrenchBender



Silly Pilot, Tricks are for kids.......
User currently offlineCF188A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting WrenchBender (Reply 15):
The paying of respects to a funeral procession or ceremony is as simple as standing and removing your hat as they pass by. If in uniform (with head dress) one shall salute the hearse as it passes by, is being loaded or unloaded

Never was I taught in any of my basic courses that you salute a hearse as it passes by . That might be a personal preference , however in uniform with head dress, never have I heard of saluting a dead civilian, I am quite positive this is not true.

Quoting WrenchBender (Reply 15):
How about police forces, fire departments, EMS etc all are uniformed and most have a rank hierarchy that also includes saluting as a means of paying respect.

by saying military personnel, I would include EMS, Police, Fire Department... even the parking police Smile . All these branches are always in our armouries practicing drill.


User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 17, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting CF188A (Reply 13):
I guess we could also compare this to a situation where a civilian is wearing a modern, present day, military uniform out of respect?

Actually, in the US, it's illegal to wear a complete military uniform unless you are in the military. Impersonating a soldier is actually against code. Sort of funny. Salutes are governed by military regulation (in the US service it's called the Uniform Code of Military Justice...UCMJ), which does not cover civilians. US federal code covers impersonating a soldier or officer.

Quoting CF188A (Reply 16):
Never was I taught in any of my basic courses that you salute a hearse as it passes by

It depends on the rank of the individual in the hearse. The dead are accorded a salute as they are paraded and at the time of burial. Watch the next military funeral procession. You will salute the flag draped casket as it moves past. Either with eyes right, hand salute or the rifle salute depending on the formation and the issued command.

I just realized that there is one time that a civilian is saluted......the person receiving the honors receives the salute as they are handed the folded flag from the casket. I assume that the salute is rendered to the person since the flag is folded and rendered by that time.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineOroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 913 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Here is Canada, you do not salute a civilian, and civies dont salute you. Civilians include civil peace officers (police), no matter how highly ranked they are. You do not salute higher ranked NCMs, only officers, and you directly salute the highest ranking officer in a group of officers. If you are not wearing your head dress, you do not salute, but check your arms and address the officer you are passing. You salute any and all officers, whether they are in uniform or not.

It was kinda funny when I was in Cold Lake in 99. The mess hall burned down, and IIRC that part of the base is USAF owned so there were USAF construction personnel on base, they had no clue of Canadian ranks, and saluted almost everything with a rank! I seen a few USAF personnel saluting Air Cadet course staff, and not even the officers... like Sgts, F/Sgts, 17-18 year old kids Big grin


User currently offlineCF188A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting DL021 (Reply 17):
You will salute the flag draped casket as it moves past. Either with eyes right, hand salute or the rifle salute depending on the formation and the issued command.

I do not believe we are referring to military flag draped coffins DL021. I was under the impression we were talking about civilian funerals .... aka your walking down the street and a hearse goes by , therefore you stop and salute it? I was saying this is highly unlikely. During military funerals and burials all in uniform will salute the casket.


User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6204 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

As a military member, I certainly don't expect a salute from civilians. With that said, it's certainly not my place to tell a civilian whether or not they're entitled to salute me. They're not subject to the UCMJ and aren't required to be trained on military customs and courtesies. A civilian has never saluted me before, and it would probably feel a little akward, but I wouldn't be offended if done out of respect. While I was eating lunch today (in uniform), some random guy came in and asked me to buy his bus ticket and a new pair of socks and a shirt, so I suppose there are worse ways to annoy somebody in the military than simply rendering a salute. By the way,we always salute the POTUS, the SECDEF, and Medal of Honor receipents. I had the honor of saluting Col. Bud Day, the highest decorated Air Force officer still living, earlier this year. We probably are supposed to salute the secretaries of the military departments too, but I'd have to look that one up. As the saying goes, if in doubt, whip it out.


Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offlineWrenchBender From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 1779 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting CF188A (Reply 16):
Never was I taught in any of my basic courses that you salute a hearse as it passes by . That might be a personal preference , however in uniform with head dress, never have I heard of saluting a dead civilian, I am quite positive this is not true.

Then I suggest you read the appropriate section of A-PD-201-000/PT-000 CF Manual of Drill and Ceremonial. Chapter 1, Sect 2 pay particular attention to Paragraphs 9 thru 15, 17 & 23, and also Chapter 11 in its entirety.
I am sure it was all covered on your BMQ, if not there is something missing in your units training.
BTW the whole post is about civilians saluting military personnel be they alive or dead.

WrenchBender



Silly Pilot, Tricks are for kids.......
User currently offlineWrighbrothers From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 1875 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Here in the UK:

Civilians generally do not salute over here, not that I've seen at-least , although it's not illegal or anything, it's simply seen as a military thing.

In cadets (and I believe the actual armed forces too), a salute by a military person can only bee taken when they have their head-dress on, and so if they do not have head-dress on, they don't salute, the same also applies when you salute an officer, if there's no head-dress on the officer, as far as I know, you do not have to salute them.
Second, you do not salute or return a salute when driving a form of transport (bike, motorbike, car etc) no matter what (as you could lose control of the vehicle).
Thirdly, you only wear head-dress when you are wearing uniform footwear, and so do not wear head-dress if you are wearing trainers or civi shoes, therefore, if you wear civi shoes, you don't wear head-dress and don't salute.
Fourthly, you do not wear head-dress when off duty, in a mess or when outside of a military base (except on parades etc), and so do not salute outside of a military base, because you shouldn't have your head-dress on.

Basically, when I wear my uniform (I'm in the cadets), I salute only when in full uniform and to an officer wearing head-dress when i'm on base or on duty.
We only salute officers, not basic soldiers, officer cadets, Warrent Officers or NCO's at any time.

Oh, and you don't return a salute to a non military person except to ex serviceman or woman with their head-dress on during a special occasion (like the Falklands 25yr celebration that happened recently here)

Wrighbrothers



Always stand up for what is right, even if it means standing alone..
User currently offlineRTFM From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 429 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:

Just to add to Wrightbrothers' post (mostly correct)... and being ex-Army....

Civilians in the UK don't salute, even (generally) if they are ex-military (however this is not to say that they can't - there's no law against it.

As a military person you would not salute when in civilian dress or when you are not wearing head-dress (generally when you are indoors). However you would salute a senior officer if you were in uniform even if they were in civilian dress or even not wearing head-dress.

The bit about not wearing head-dress outside of a military base is not correct.. the only time you generally remove head-dress when in uniform is indoors.


User currently offlineWrighbrothers From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 1875 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Hi  Smile

Quoting RTFM (Reply 23):
Just to add to Wrightbrothers' post (mostly correct)... and being ex-Army....

Civilians in the UK don't salute, even (generally) if they are ex-military (however this is not to say that they can't - there's no law against it.

As a military person you would not salute when in civilian dress or when you are not wearing head-dress (generally when you are indoors). However you would salute a senior officer if you were in uniform even if they were in civilian dress or even not wearing head-dress.

The bit about not wearing head-dress outside of a military base is not correct.. the only time you generally remove head-dress when in uniform is indoors.

Ahh, the army do things slightly different to us cadets, we do have to remove head dress when off base unless we're on duty (parades etc) and I'm not 100% sure about the officer out of dress issue, bit of a grey area, but thanks for the army view  Smile

Wrighbrothers



Always stand up for what is right, even if it means standing alone..
25 Post contains images David L : In the OTC, we were to remove our head-dress when having a smoke. I guess smoking in full uniform just isn't cricket. I vaguely recall that, in a sit
26 Jutes85 : How would I know who is an officer or not when he/she is in civies?
27 Post contains images DL021 : probably should have said "known to you" to clarify. Is this horse dead yet?
28 Jutes85 : Most of the officers that I know are easy going and would probably shoot a puck at me during a hockey game for saluting them while they are in civies.
29 Post contains images WrenchBender : Have you been reading the same book that I have been reading ? WrenchBender
30 DL021 : dude....I gave up reading books long ago....my lips get too tired...
31 HanginOut : Could one of our US friends confirm something for me. I know that for the Commonwealth militaries, we never salute without head dress, but I've seen U
32 Zwaving : Perhaps if we look at the origins of the salute, it would help with what to do as long as we use common sense. The purpose of the salute today is some
33 HanginOut : The practice began when knights would greet each other. To show that they did not have hostile intent they would raise the visor on their helmet (whi
34 RIXrat : During my army days I served in the environs of the Pentagon. The rules there was no salutes, whatsoever, unless on a special occasion. The logic was
35 Post contains images BilgeRat : I'm an officer with the Royal Fleet Auxiliary. Officially we are civilians (although moves are afoot to change that!) but we wear uniform, have a rigi
36 Sprout5199 : When I was in the Navy, there was a time/place to salute everyone, no matter civilian or miltary, When someone was coming onboard the ship, the OOD, o
37 Flighty : Exactly, the US Pres is not a civilian. IMO.
38 Checksixx : Yes, the President is the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces and is still considered a civilian. It is not the norm for regular civilians to rende
39 UH60FtRucker : Did you ever hear the joke that President Reagan use to tell: "I can't resist telling you a little story that I've just told the marine guard at the
40 Checksixx : Yes, its a 'custom and courtesy'...as such a Medal of Honor recipient is not in your chain of command and you would still salute. Also, an officer of
41 Sprout5199 : And when in doubt, Salute. A little story: The ship I was on went reserve(hated it--another story), so we "hosted" Midshipmen for 2 week cruises in t
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