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U.S. Agrees To Sell F-35 To Israel  
User currently offlinePlayloud From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 57 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10930 times:

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article...._id=10&categ_id=2&article_id=84187

Quote:
A senior Israeli government source said that under the defense package, the United States agreed to sell the Jewish state the new generation F-35 fighter jet, advanced bombs and laser-guided missiles.


97 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10875 times:

At least the US Government hasn't given them the F-22 -- yet!

Quote:
The aid boost to Israel has been widely seen as a US bid to help allay Israeli concerns over a package of arms sales, that could be worth some $20 billion over the next decade, which Washington is preparing for Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 10817 times:

Not really a surprise ... if they sell it to Turkey they will sell it to Israel.

User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 10790 times:

Stay tuned for more news on mid-east defense sales. There's a news report that Russia and Iran have concluded a deal for 250 SU-30s, plus tankers. Naturally, the Arab countries will want F-35s to counter this threat. And Israel? Undoubtedly they, and their enormous lobby in the U.S., will demand the F-22.


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineRaginMav From United States of America, joined May 2004, 376 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 10770 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 3):
Undoubtedly they, and their enormous lobby in the U.S., will demand the F-22.

And they undoubtedly (at least in my mind) will get it.

Honestly, though, I don't think Isreal would need the F-22 to counter the threat of Iranian SU-30s. A similarly sized fleet of F-35's in Isralie hands should be sufficient.


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 10764 times:

Quoting RaginMav (Reply 4):
I don't think Isreal would need the F-22 t

It ain't the SU-30s from Iran. It's these:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 3):
Naturally, the Arab countries will want F-35s to counter this threat.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineRaginMav From United States of America, joined May 2004, 376 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 10721 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 5):
It ain't the SU-30s from Iran. It's these

Ah ha! Forgive my incompetence, that was fairly obvious. I need more coffee.


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 10701 times:

Quoting RaginMav (Reply 6):
I need more coffee.

Believe me, brother, I've been there!  Big grin

Wouldn't it be ironic if the Russian sale to Iran proves to be a sales catylst for the F-35? India? Pakistan? UAE? Kuwait? Saudi Arabia? Egypt?



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineEBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 10694 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 3):
Stay tuned for more news on mid-east defense sales. There's a news report that Russia and Iran have concluded a deal for 250 SU-30s, plus tankers. Naturally, the Arab countries will want F-35s to counter this threat. And Israel? Undoubtedly they, and their enormous lobby in the U.S., will demand the F-22.

Just how effective is the F-35 expected to be in the air superiority and/or interceptor role? I've been under the impression it's designed to be a fighter-bomber first with secondary air-to-air capability. Does it have capabilities that would allow it to go head-to-head with the likes of the SU-30 or SU-35 and come out the winner?



Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently online9VSIO From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 711 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 10685 times:
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I believe the case for the F-35 vs SU's are that the Sukhoi's would never see it coming due to the stealth capabilities of the F-35. In terms of pure speed and maneuverability....who knows? (Someone answer that please!)


Me: (Lining up on final) I shall now select an aiming point. || Instructor: Well, I hope it's the runway...
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16824 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 10666 times:

Perhaps Israel should order a mix of F-35A's and F-35Bs, since Israel is such a small country within range of ballistics missiles from Iran their airfields are vulnerable to attack. They can move their F-35Bs to makeshift airfields away from hardened targets to prevent loss from a ballistics missile attack on an airfield.


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6836 posts, RR: 46
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 10657 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 3):
Undoubtedly they, and their enormous lobby in the U.S., will demand the F-22.

I suppose I'm part of that enormous lobby, but God promised to Abraham that he would "bless those that bless you and curse those that curse you." That promise has been literally fulfilled for about 4,000 years and I want to stay on the blessing side of it. Whatever Israel wants we should sell them, and if they can't afford it we should give it to them. They're the only true friend we have in the area, and perhaps in the world.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineUSAF336TFS From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1445 posts, RR: 52
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 10607 times:

Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 9):
I believe the case for the F-35 vs SU's are that the Sukhoi's would never see it coming due to the stealth capabilities of the F-35. In terms of pure speed and maneuverability....who knows? (Someone answer that please!)

Contrary to what you may hear, especially from some of our "if it's American-made, it's overrated" colleagues here on A.Net, I believe that the F-35 was designed to counter Russian fourth generation fighters, such as the SU-27/30 and latest MiGs.
I have no doubt that if anyone is going to prove how well the design is against finest of Russian metal, it'll be the Israelis.

[Edited 2007-07-31 20:26:16]


336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
User currently offlineSilentbob From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2053 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 10577 times:

Quoting RaginMav (Reply 4):
Honestly, though, I don't think Isreal would need the F-22 to counter the threat of Iranian SU-30s. A similarly sized fleet of F-35's in Isralie hands should be sufficient.

When you go to war, you don't want "sufficient", you want overkill.


User currently offlineRaginMav From United States of America, joined May 2004, 376 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 10553 times:

Quoting Silentbob (Reply 13):
When you go to war, you don't want "sufficient", you want overkill

Yes, well, we (America) want overkill over the rest of the world. And for that reason, the F-22 should stay in our hip pocket, at least until we have 'the next big thing.' So, IMHO, the F-35 will just have to suffice.


User currently offlineHanginOut From Austria, joined May 2005, 550 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 10489 times:

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 11):
They're the only true friend we have in the area, and perhaps in the world.

I would have thought that the UK, Canada, Australia, Japan and others are "friends" of the US as well (considering that most of these countries have spilled their blood fighting alongside US forces on many occasions).  sarcastic 



Dreaming of the day I can work for an airline
User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 10488 times:

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 12):
I have no doubt that if anyone is going to prove how well the design is against finest of Russian metal, it'll be the Israelis.

Huh? Last time the Israelis shot something down must haven been somewhere in the 80s? And even then they mostly fought against 70s Russian metal manned with poorly trained crews. If you want that kind of test, you should sell F-35s to someone who has a good chance to fight a nation that really flies modern Russian aircraft, trains its crews properly and additionally can bring in all the Command/Control/AWACS stuff that contributed most to US air superiority since after Vietnam. I can only see Russia, China and India here, hence sell them to Pakistan or Taiwan to get a test.

Quoting Silentbob (Reply 13):
When you go to war, you don't want "sufficient", you want overkill.

No, you want overkill so that you don't NEED to go to war. Any other logic is sick.

Quoting RaginMav (Reply 14):
Yes, well, we (America) want overkill over the rest of the world.

Really amiable ...


User currently offlinePlayloud From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 57 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 day ago) and read 10461 times:

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 8):
Just how effective is the F-35 expected to be in the air superiority and/or interceptor role? I've been under the impression it's designed to be a fighter-bomber first with secondary air-to-air capability. Does it have capabilities that would allow it to go head-to-head with the likes of the SU-30 or SU-35 and come out the winner?

From the information available, I believe the F-35 will be the 2nd best AA fighter in the world (behind the Raptor). Its combination of stealth, and a very advanced and capable RADAR will likely give it the first shot in a conflict. It is also highly maneuverable (9g with full internal load) should it find itself in a knife fight.

The biggest problem the F-35 has (in terms of AA capability) that I can see, is the fact that currently it can only carry 4 AA missiles internally. If you are flying against a large number of enemy planes, it may be desirable to load up some missiles externally. However, this will compromise the high level of stealth that the F-35 enjoys.


User currently offlineSilentbob From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2053 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (7 years 23 hours ago) and read 10436 times:

Quoting HanginOut (Reply 15):
I would have thought that the UK, Canada, Australia, Japan and others are "friends" of the US as well (considering that most of these countries have spilled their blood fighting alongside US forces on many occasions).

Iran was a staunch ally at one point as well. You never know what may change over time.

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 16):
No, you want overkill so that you don't NEED to go to war. Any other logic is sick.

Anyone who wants to go to war is sick. However, there are going to be times that war is a necessity. Not believing that is delusional. I do agree that having an unsurmountable advantage tends to reduce the likelihood that you need to go to war.

As an aside, it is interesting to note that the US has never used its full military capabilities in any conflict since the second world war.


User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 23 hours ago) and read 10424 times:

Of course Israel will get the F-22 as well as the F-35. Their Israel Lobby has a stranglehold on our government and would creat a s**tstorm if we refused.

My opinion is that Israel should not get them because they cannot be trusted with keeping technology which we give them to themselves. I mean they gave the Chinese loads of technology regarding Nuclear Ballistic missiles, some of it they got from us!!! That's an outright betrayal, they gave our technology to an enemy of ours, or a quasi-enemy.

Of course others will disagree with me, but that's my opinion.

Andrea Kent


User currently offlineFumanchewd From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 22 hours ago) and read 10393 times:

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 19):
My opinion is that Israel should not get them because they cannot be trusted with keeping technology which we give them to themselves.

Are you sure that your haven't arrived at your opinion because of other reasons?  Smile


User currently offlinePlayloud From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 57 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 21 hours ago) and read 10388 times:

Given Israel's history of selling our tech, I rather just let them buy the F-35, which was designed from the beginning to protect sensitive technologies. Israeli pilots are second to none, and I don't think they will have any problems defending themselves with the F-35.

If we can't trust Japan with the Raptor, how can we trust Israel?


User currently offlineHanginOut From Austria, joined May 2005, 550 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 21 hours ago) and read 10376 times:

Quoting Silentbob (Reply 18):
Iran was a staunch ally at one point as well. You never know what may change over time.

While it is true that your allies change over time, you're confusing client states or friends of convenience that are propped up or used as a bulwark by the US Government against their enemies/competitors, with their "allies". They may use the terminology "ally" when talking about such countries, but in reality they're client states/bulwarks. (e.g. Would you really describe Saudi Arabia as an ally or a client state/bulwark against Iran and general instability in the Middle East.)

I would argue that the UK, Canada, and Australia have been consistently allied and friendly with the US for generations, you can't say that about many other countries in the world (including Israel) as I would argue that a true ally would be willing to shed blood alongside American combat forces. So your example of Iran isn't really valid in this context. What it does show is that bulwarks/friends of convenience can come back to haunt you (e.g. Iran, the Taliban in Afghanistan, etc.).

Also, I would argue that only your closest friends and allies will disagree with you but can almost always be counted on in the end. For example, while Canada disagreed with the US policy toward Iraq, we didn't let that disagreement (which at times was quite poisonous) destroy our overall relationship. Afghanistan is a prime example of this. We have Canadian troops fighting and dying alongside American forces against the Taliban and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. You can't say that about many other so called allies of the US (just for the record the only NATO allies that are willing to do the fighting in Afghanistan are the UK, Canada, the Netherlands - there's also the Australians, but they're not NATO)!



Dreaming of the day I can work for an airline
User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 20 hours ago) and read 10363 times:

Chewy,

Don't question my loyalty as an American... I am loyal to the ideals and constitution of my country.


Playloud

My point exactly


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 24, posted (7 years 20 hours ago) and read 10343 times:

Quoting Silentbob (Reply 13):
When you go to war, you don't want "sufficient", you want overkill.

Exactly. You don't want a fair fight.

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 16):
No, you want overkill so that you don't NEED to go to war. Any other logic is sick.

Exactly, but if you have to fight you want to have the biggest stick.

Quoting Playloud (Reply 21):
Given Israel's history of selling our tech, I rather just let them buy the F-35, which was designed from the beginning to protect sensitive technologies

In that light I actually agree with that.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
25 Silentbob : Actually, I would consider Saudi Arabia a major source of funding for militant islamic fundamentalists. Not confusing them at all, though I do agree
26 USAF336TFS : Huh? And for historical perspective, the Israelis shot down Syrian MiG-29s in the mid 90s, I believe. Iran is buying 30 SU-30MK from the Russians. Do
27 F27Friendship : another vivid example of exremely poor long term strategic planning. When will US govmnts ever learn from their mistakes?? You all remember that Iran
28 SEPilot : The next major fight is already here, and it is against militant Islam. Israel is the ONLY nation (including the US) that really understands this. Al
29 Post contains images USAF336TFS : As stupid as we Americans are, I doubt we're that stupid... Ah yes, the great "Military/Industrial Complex" conspiricy again... Or is it simpler? May
30 F27Friendship : LOL! No conspiricy at all! Industry will benefit from this, how is that a conspiricy? Ofcourse it is not only because industry wants it (they are not
31 USAF336TFS : I don't think we're going to "trust" anyone with the F-22, nor should the United States. "Trusting" or not "trusting" another government may an be un
32 F27Friendship : I apologize if what I posted is deamed offensive. This was not my intention. My personal opinion is just that his conclusions are extremely weird for
33 SEPilot : Personally, I take no offense. This is largely correct. I totally agree that many may disagree with it, and that is entirely their right. I did not p
34 Post contains images Lumberton : I sincerely hope this thread can continue. Geopolitics is an integral part of military sales, particularly as involves high performance aircraft. Diff
35 F27Friendship : I am glad you didn't. Fair enough. However, if anyone's personal opinion concerning the US/Israel relation is formed by their faith, I don't think th
36 SEPilot : While part what you say is true, everyone's faith is an issue in practically all their opinions, whether they acknowledge it or not. I usually do not
37 Post contains images PADSpot : I don't want to explicitly negate that sentence, but it was not primarily made to fight 4thGen fighters in the first place. It is a truly multi role
38 Post contains images USAF336TFS : I didn't, but we both know who that is.... You're correct. My bad. The data I was looking at is too small for my over-40 eyes to focus in on anymore.
39 Fumanchewd : I try not to judge people in that manner. However, your past posts indicate, to me at least, that you are far from being an Israeli sympathizer and I
40 F27Friendship : I am not convinced.. Can you tell me more about the SU-30 IR capability, and why you think it would detect an F-35 before it would see the SU-30? I b
41 Lumberton : Weren't some shot down during the first Gulf War?
42 Post contains links Playloud : Not by the Israelis, but some were shot down by coalition forces. http://webcom.com/~amraam/aakill.html[Edited 2007-08-02 00:37:30]
43 Lumberton : Thanks, that's what I thought. Great link by the way.
44 SEPilot : A bit off topic, but I believe I heard that no F-15 has ever been shot down in air-to-air combat. Does anyone know if this is true?
45 USAF336TFS : Absolutely true.
46 PADSpot : I did not write, that it would be detected earlier by the Su-30s IR system than it would be able to detect the Su-30 by radar. And that is definitely
47 Post contains links F27Friendship : So if I understand correctly: JSF can see further, but doesn't have the weapon to make the kill, while the SU-30 has a smaller range with its sensors
48 PADSpot : With its radar, yes. And a Su-30 is a target you can't miss radar-wise. IR-wise yes, radar-wise a clear statement is hardly possible because there ar
49 Post contains links Playloud : Two F-15E's were lost in Desert Storm. One to AAA and one to a SAM (SA-2). http://webcom.com/~amraam/aaloss.html
50 F27Friendship : thanks for the update. I wasn;t aware of this. It seams it is always advertised as a fighter that has never been lost due to combat, but only because
51 USAF336TFS : This is absolutely correct, because both aircraft were from our sister squadron. It is also fact the F-15 has never been shot down in an air to air r
52 F27Friendship : so you could say no 'normal' F-15 (air superiority version) was ever lost, I guess I didn;t read accurately when I learned no F-15 was ever lost, they
53 Checksixx : Errr...thats 2 AtA missiles internally. No plans yet to upgrade that capability. I'm guessing you'll see that after they start delivering aircraft. N
54 F27Friendship : you are forgetting there will be other operators than the USAF who will have only the F-35, for all missions (AA, AG, recon, etc)
55 9VSIO : Erm, wasn't there a joint airex between the USAF and the Indians which showed that the SU's beat the F-15's hands down?
56 Post contains images PADSpot : That's what I thought also. The F-35 will more do the job of a fighter bomber, while the F-22 will put an emphasis on fighting air threads. Yes, even
57 F27Friendship : only USAF (at least untill further notice) will have those 2 types.. For example in the Netherlands we will do everything with the F-35 (as we do now
58 PADSpot : Yes, you're right. I was again to quick ... UK F-35s will at least be able to rely on Typhoons over land. When deployed on carriers, they need to do
59 F27Friendship : I guess it will be the other way around, with the typhoons using the stealth F-35 platform to guide them.. but then the F-35 could do it just as easi
60 PADSpot : Ehhm, no. When operating side by side over land the EF would do the air-to-air fighting and the F-35 would do the bombing. Over water and based on ca
61 Post contains images F27Friendship : ok, let's not start such a discussion. I just disagree with you and I think F-35 will beat a Typhoon in AA any time
62 Post contains images PADSpot : That's is totally ok for me, no problem at all.
63 Post contains images F27Friendship : hey! great this is possible! I think I'm going to try this respected member thingy
64 Post contains links USAF336TFS : Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 55): And...? Airexs and actual combat are two completely different things. Proves nothing. Airex are usually a better test of abi
65 PADSpot : Here's what the leading officer of the USAF detachment that took part in "Cope India 2004" said after the exercise was over And here is what the Indi
66 Post contains links USAF336TFS : http://www.kommersant.com/p-11159/Sukhoi_Iran_jets/ Fair Use: "Sukhoi Doesn't Negotiate Su-30 Delivery to Iran Sukhoi Co. has refuted today the repor
67 PADSpot : Maybe he's just not interested in heating up the situation more and more. Could also be about money, Iran is not that solvent as one might think. The
68 F27Friendship : I guess this goes for a lot more parties than just the Russians... probably everybody?
69 Post contains images USAF336TFS : Hummm.... both statements sound the same to me...
70 PADSpot : Well if your assumption is correct he would just seek his own advantage, if mine is correct he could even have some morale. Basically yes, but the ex
71 Post contains images F27Friendship : I do hope so (if you mean it changed in a positive sense)
72 Acheron : Depends, we still have to see what the last Flanker(Su-35BM, which is purely for export market so it wont be restrained by VVS' specs) is capable of,
73 PADSpot : Although the Su-30 does have some nice features to reveal radar-wise stealthy targets, it was not designed to counter modern fighters such as the Typ
74 Acheron : I'm not talking about the old Su-30K/M/MK series nor the old Su-35(Su-27M, the widely known one with Canards and all that) but the model which first
75 Post contains images F27Friendship : could you hand us a link?
76 PADSpot : Just out of curiosity I would like to see that brochure, too. So if you could post that link again that would be very kind. Thanks in advance!!! But
77 Post contains links Acheron : Sure!. http://www.airliners.net/discussions/military/read.main/67195/ Reply 10 Well, for a design which is almost at the end of its improvement-of-ca
78 PADSpot : thx. 3m² is still large. It could itself track from up to 400km ... much of the electomechanical theory behind stealth was conceived and developed b
79 Acheron : Not really, that's about the size of an F-5. The F-16 by comparisson is around 7m2(around 4 to 5 when treated with RAM) and Flankers and Eagles are o
80 PADSpot : With its nowadays opponents being below 1m² it is large. Well, adding land attack capability is a concept extension with grave implications. With th
81 MCIGuy : That's really too bad. I hope we don't see the tech end up in Chinese hands then.
82 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : Update: Israel firms up its requirements for their version of the JSF..... http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...strike-fighter-specifications.html Q
83 LY744 : ...while Israeli government and military leadership are actually quite willing to DELAY the potential purchase. This is in light of the obvious need
84 L-188 : A lot of peole are of the opinion that the US intentionally tanked that exercise in order to secure F-22 funding.
85 Post contains links DEVILFISH : Due to it being required to take those on as well, instead of its more natural competition only..... .....Rafales and Typhoons --- on account of it b
86 Wvsuperhornet : An over 20 year old aircraft.
87 PADSpot : Yes, I know. I pointed out that argument in another thread. Ehm? The Su is that large due it being required to take on small RCS targets in addition
88 DEVILFISH : I meant it has a larger RCS compared to later fighters, but significantly smaller than the "technologically equivalent" though chronologically ahead
89 Wvsuperhornet : If the surrounding countries are being sold the top Russian weapons look for the US to sell top American Weapons the only hold might just be the sell
90 Jabs : Earlier in May, Israel has placed an order for 25 F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighters, with options for a further 50. The 25 aircraft will be of t
91 LY744 : So is that really a done deal now? There's been so much blabbering about the F-35 in Israel I stopped paying attention... It's a long time coming tho
92 Wvsuperhornet : Whats the difference between this and the Gazillion US Tanker deal threads..lol
93 EBJ1248650 : In years past, if a fighter was optimized for the fighter bomber role, it was assumed to be very good at that role but somewhat deficient in the air-
94 Wvsuperhornet : I agree in the hands of an Isreali especially the F-35 will be more than enough to handle any Russian made threats in the area.
95 Baroque : I wonder what relevance David Howard the expert on "wholistic dentistry" from Sydney might have. Ironical that his website trailer spells holistic in
96 LimaNiner : If you want a direct test, how about selling a few to Georgia? We could probably get the test results pretty quickly... (And yes, I'm kidding...)
97 SEPilot : Good relations is fine as far as it goes. But when someone's theology says that God will reward them for killing you it is wise to be on your guard.
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