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User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4938 posts, RR: 1
Posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3276 times:

Defense Industry Daily has this report on RAND Corporation's Project Air Force studies dealing with US airlift capabilities as those apply to counter-insurgency operations. The conclusion was that current assets are too big, sophisticated and expensive for the job at hand, and for the most part out of reach of those requiring COIN airlift....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...-counter-insurgency-airlift-03561/

Quote:
"....The positive influence of airlift on counterinsurgent morale and confidence is also well documented and strategically important.... Very quickly, a conventional theater airlift fleet can run out of 'tails' to support such dispersed operations ....a counterinsurgent airlift effort likely will include a greater proportion of small-scale, quick-response military missions overshadowed by the possibility of encountering serious air defense threats.... The U.S. armed forces' experience with the C-7 Caribou... provides an instructive precedent.... the C-7 possessed a unique combination of moderate speed, economy of operation, and the ability to take off and land on rough fields that ....proved to be enormously valuable in Vietnam.... there may be a need to refill the C-7's operational niche. However, this need should be understood as a shortfall in capability.... two general program goals that DoD should emphasize....

First, the aircraft designs chosen should emphasize capability for short takeoffs and landings from rough fields or vertical takeoffs and landings and high survivability over other design goals, such as cargo capacity and economy of operation..... Second, the purchase of specialized systems should be minimized. Ideally, an existing aircraft design, suitably modified, would be able to provide these capabilities...."



It is very likely that even the C-27J Spartan recently selected for the US JCA requirement would prove too much of a plane, and way-over-the-top for the air arms of these poor, rebel-infested countries. The report recommends that the US, through its Foreign Internal Defense program, help these nations acquire suitable transports. This could be the right time and opportunity to continue development and production of failed projects such as the military variant of Ayres' L-200M Loadmaster.....

http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRTypen/FRfotzi2/LM200.JPG

Perhaps, a small portion of the funds intended for arming the Middle East could be channeled to this effort?.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...es-in-response-to-iran-sukhoi.html


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
14 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29813 posts, RR: 58
Reply 1, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3246 times:

Quoting DEVILFISH (Thread starter):
This could be the right time and opportunity to continue development and production of failed projects such as the military variant of Ayres' L-200M Loadmaster.....

I don't see that project being resurected, and I don't think that aircraft would have been able to handle the rough terrain. Tires too small, wing to high speed, prop too close to the ground.

To be honest the simplest way might be to get this catagory of aircraft would be to give Basler a call and have some C-47 conversions brought online.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4938 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3207 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 1):
Tires too small, wing to high speed, prop too close to the ground.

Did you mean the wing was too high, or designed for speed? Other than that, your proposed alternative seem to have the same characteristics.....


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One of the biggest concerns was helos and props were too slow and vulnerable to groundfire, RPGs and MANPADS.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 1):

To be honest the simplest way might be to get this catagory of aircraft would be to give Basler a call and have some C-47 conversions brought online.


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Bean counters may not deem refurbishing ancient airframes with expensive new engines, modern avionics, comms and spare parts as a wise or worthwhile investment. More to the point, it won't support many jobs in prospective backers' constituencies, nor give industry a lucrative contract.

An AFSOC study already identified likely candidates.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...rs-want-irreguar-warfare-wing.html

Quote:
"and 20 light mobility aircraft. The latter can be comprised of Cessnas or EADS Casa C-212s,"

However, both have survivability issues as well.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29813 posts, RR: 58
Reply 3, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3205 times:

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 2):
or designed for speed?

Exactly, it isn't designed to fly slow, it was designed for efficency.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 2):
your proposed alternative seem to have the same characteristics.....

Naw, a C-47 has no problem with 3k feet of gravel



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineDeskflier From Sweden, joined Jan 2007, 537 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3021 times:

Why not buy more C-23 Sherpas? An order from the US Army, USMC, and/or USAF, would probably be large enough to warrant a reopening of the production line, and it is a type that is already familiar to the US military. OK, it's a little slow and wouldn't stand much of a chance facing MANPADS unless flown by a very good pilot, but it is a proven sturdy design, and as stated before a known entity to at least the US Army. To show just how much of a utility transport the Sherpa is, I can inform You that the Alaska Army National Guard replaced their UV-18 Twin Otters with C-23B Sherpas.


How can anyone not fly, when we live at a time when we can fly?
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12173 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3015 times:

Quoting Deskflier (Reply 4):
and as stated before a known entity to at least the US Army.

The C-23s were originially in the USAF. It would not be a good aircraft in a COIN role. You are better off with C-27s and C-212s.

Better yet, let's just build more AC-130s.  bigthumbsup 


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29813 posts, RR: 58
Reply 6, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2972 times:

Quoting Deskflier (Reply 4):
I can inform You that the Alaska Army National Guard replaced their UV-18 Twin Otters with C-23B Sherpas.

Wasn't their choice

There are lot of AKANG guys that are still ticked they had to give up their twin otters for those things



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4938 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2861 times:

What about the GAF Nomad? It's not the toughest of planes admittedly, but some structural beefing up and maybe an engine upgrade could produce a viable candidate?

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Especially since it might be available cheap, as buyers for the type certificate and manufacturing rights were being sought, so far unsuccessfully.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...3721/nomad-must-find-new-home.html

Quote:
"The Australian-built Nomad utility twin turboprop will face permanent grounding next month if the Australian government and Boeing-owned Aerospace Technologies of Australia (ASTA) fail to identify a buyer for the aircraft's manufacturing rights and type certificate.

Australia's Government Aircraft Factories (now ASTA) designed and built 55 14-seat N22 and 18-seat N24 Nomads, which are operating in civil roles in 10 countries, and in the defence forces of Indonesia, the Philippines and Thailand. Since 1995, product support has been contracted to ASTA, but the company advised operators in November 2006 that funding for the contract would cease at the end of next month.

ASTA says no further original equipment manufacturer-approved Nomad airframe spares will be manufactured if the type certificate is cancelled."


And there is the reborn Twin Otter by Viking. Also, the PZL Mielec Skytruck and Let's 410 seem to be under some kind of revival.....

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.....and the slightly bigger An-38.....

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[Edited 2007-08-11 05:36:41]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29813 posts, RR: 58
Reply 8, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2848 times:

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 7):
It's not the toughest of planes admittedly, but some structural beefing up and maybe an engine upgrade could produce a viable candidate?

Yeah replace those Allisons with a pair of Garretts and you might have something there. Power is always nice on a STOL airplane.

But I don't think it would be successful, It has the same issued with control that the MU-2 has due to the spoiler roll system. It is mainly a training issue, but old appearances die hard.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 7):
Especially since it might be available cheap, as buyers for the type certificate and manufacturing rights were being sought, so far unsuccessfully.....

I wonder how much they are asking for it.

And is that just the Aussie type or the US-FAA one?



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4938 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2790 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 8):
Power is always nice on a STOL airplane.

I'm not sure if they uprated the Allisons when they stretched the airframe by 3'-9" for the N-24.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 8):
It has the same issued with control that the MU-2 has due to the spoiler roll system.

From A/C Stats.....

Quote:
"Nomad production ceased in 1984, as much due to mismanagement by the Australian government departments entrusted with its development as any faults with the aircraft."

I believe the main issue was the banning of full-flap operations due to structural problems, preventing Nomad use for its primary STOL role.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...413/australian-nomads-move-on.html

Quote:
"The 20 aircraft include two 'stretched' N24s, modified with VIP interiors by Brisbane-based Jetcare, the maintenance and engineering division of Flightwest Airlines. Australia declared the type unsuitable for its requirements when operational restrictions, resulting from structural problems, including the banning of full-flap operation, barred the Nomad's use in short take-off-and-landing roles. The aircraft have since been in storage."


Quoting L-188 (Reply 8):

But I don't think it would be successful,



Quoting L-188 (Reply 8):

I wonder how much they are asking for it.

It may not even have to be a runaway success. If enterprising souls inside Boeing (who absorbed Rockwell after it acquired ASTA) thought it worth their while in view of the huge funding (link at start) being earmarked for the Middle East, they might do a double take and just decide they deserve that piece of the action.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 8):
And is that just the Aussie type or the US-FAA one?

AFAIK, both Oz and Stateside samples came under one FAA type certificate. I could be terribly wrong here. I wonder though how quick they could restart production and start delivery should an updated, strenghtened and re-engined Nomad N-24 Cargomaster version be deemed appropriate, given that manufacturing stopped 23 years ago.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29813 posts, RR: 58
Reply 10, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2773 times:

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 9):
I'm not sure if they uprated the Allisons when they stretched the airframe by 3'-9" for the N-24.

I'll have to dig out the photos but when I was working ramp at CDB Alaska we had to nomads pass through. I want to say they where N24's but it was 12-13 years ago or so. But they definately had Allisons.

Edit: HEY I PUT A PHOTO ON THE DATABASE OF ONE WHEN IT WAS NEW!!!


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It is a N24

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 9):
I'm not sure if they uprated the Allisons when they stretched the airframe by 3'-9" for the N-24

I think that might be part of the issue. The aircraft might be underbuilt because of the lack of power causing a need to keep the weight down.. If you go to Garrett engines you a looking at a minimum 200 hp increase in power per side. You definately could add some weight.

Somebody also told me that the aircraft was designed for a swing tail but the FAA won't allow those in the US.


Still wouldn't it be great to have a little factory that build say the Lockheed 60 and these things (Properly redesigned) of course.

[Edited 2007-08-11 19:25:21]


OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4938 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2758 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 10):
Still wouldn't it be great to have a little factory that build say the Lockheed 60 and these things (Properly redesigned) of course.

The Lodestar certainly wasn't a stranger to harsh or desert environments.....

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But the Nomad has better odds of a new life - as with assured funds from the GWOT, Boeing could present it as part of industry offsets for their defence sales to Australia. Congress would likely look symphatetically at another bone thrown Boeing's way as an improvement of the balance of payments and in furtherance of trade. That is, if the Nomad could get past the Cessna Caravan, Viking Twin Otter and CASA C212-400 in current production.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29813 posts, RR: 58
Reply 12, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2747 times:

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 11):
The Lodestar certainly wasn't a stranger to harsh or desert environments

Wrong bird, This was the one I was thinking of.


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OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4938 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2739 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 12):

Wrong bird, This was the one I was thinking of.

That may be too "light" for the light utility/cargo mission. Although it could be the right "bird" for this other requirement.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...ogs-for-the-iraqi-air-force-03578/

Quote:
"and surveillance of roads and infrastructure.

That kind of surveillance doesn't require high tech, high-end aircraft. The USAF has been using F-16 and F/A-18 aircraft at $15,000 per flight hour, plus recapitalization amortization. In contrast, light propeller aircraft like Cessna's L-19 'Bird Dog' and O-2 successor worked very well in Vietnam. Their modern descendants can be outfitted with modern surveillance turrets plus 'Mk1 eyeballs and ears' for a fraction of a fighter jet's acquisition and amortization cost, in order to do more or less the same ISR job. They'll also crash less often than expensive UAVs, and are more suitable for fledgling air forces. Specialty models like the Schweizer RU-38 Twin Condor even add acoustic silencing, plus more mission space for dedicated surveillance equipment."


.....had Cessna not been first to the party!.....

Quote:
"The 'Bird Dog' concept fits the IqAF's profile and support capabilities, which may be why Cessna Aircraft Co. in Wichita, KS has received a firm-fixed-price contract for $10.6 million. For about the price of a high-end Predator UAV system, this contract action will procure 18 Cessna C-172 aircraft (with an option for 10 more), logistics support services, and 1 year of spares for the Iraqi Air Force."

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...ssna-172_Takeoff_Intersofia_lg.jpg



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4938 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2602 times:

On second thought, considering Sikorsky's acquisition of PZL Mielec - their stretched Skytruck Plus with P&W PT6 engines, 5-blade Hartzell propellers, rear ramp door and ability to carry three LD3 containers - is now better positioned to compete against CASA's C212-400 for the airlifter requirement.....

http://pzlmielec.com.pl/ang/fly01_4.html

* Cargo Transport, with a system for cargo loading and restraint; with operational equipment:

The SKYTRUCK PLUS will be available in two varieties.

One of those features a hydraulically-operated cargo door in the rear fuselage (tail) section, made up of either two door halves or a ramp door, combined with a cargo hoist. The major purpose of the variety will be for transportation of loose, small cargo items. The other variety comes with a large cargo door on fuselage starboard and a set of roller floors for loading and transportation of three standard LD-3 type containers inside the cargo cabin. Both varieties of the model can accommodate an under-fuselage luggage pod of 2 m? capacity and extra-capacity fuel tanks.

The airplane maximum takeoff weight ( MTOW) will amount to 8,600 kg .....

In military applications, the airplane characteristics ensure operating capability under severe terrain configurations for logistic support to locations inaccessible to large transport airplanes that require long, paved runways, while provision of the after door in the fuselage tail section allows for dropping up to 27 paratroopers.


http://pzlmielec.com.pl/057.jpg

http://pzlmielec.com.pl/058.jpg



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
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