Columba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 5610 posts, RR: 5 Posted (2 years 2 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 20468 times:
PARIS --- France and Germany are leaning towards an off-the-shelf acquisition to meet their requirement for a heavy transport helicopter, and according to present plans could award a production contract by 2012 for initial deliveries in 2017.
The two countries on June 20 signed an agreement in which they said they would “work in common to harmonise their requirements for operational and tactical airlift and air manoeuvrability, in order to fill the gap beyond the capabilities provided by the NH90” and the future Airbus A400M fixed-wing aircraft. The project is known as Helicoptère de Transport Lourd (HTL) in France and Future Transport Helicopter (FTH) in Germany.
AutoThrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1048 posts, RR: 9 Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 20467 times:
I really hope they go for the Mi-26 and refit it with the very latest avionics and engines. That would be a very capable helicopter. With the NH-90 it would accomplish any mission.
TheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 2755 posts, RR: 30 Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 20445 times:
Very interesting. Under the old Schröder government, intensifying relations with russia was on the agenda. While the atmosphere is cooler now, it could be an interesting development to order a russian made plane.
PADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1673 posts, RR: 7 Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 20115 times:
Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 1): I really hope they go for the Mi-26 and refit it with the very latest avionics and engines. That would be a very capable helicopter.
I wouldn't mind to see them buy CH-53K.
Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 2): Why not order some IL76M at the same time?
The difference to the A400M is not that big. Should get some C-17s or An-124.
Columba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 5610 posts, RR: 5 Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 20100 times:
Quoting PADSpot (Reply 4): I wouldn't mind to see them buy CH-53K.
Me too, I think the CH 53 is a very nice helicopter and the CH53G/GS served the army well so why not going for the successor. I don´t think a helicopter in the size of the Mil 26 is really needed. If they need capacity that big a small cargo aircraft below the A400M (CASA, C27J) might be the better solution.
Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans - John Lennon
PADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1673 posts, RR: 7 Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 20038 times:
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 6): How much heavy lifting does either of these nations conduct?
What's the ability for either France or Germany transport this aircraft to a theater of operation?
Germany has will sustain a heavy lift helo fleet of 60-80 CH-53-equivalent helos. France is not so much in the heavylift helo business and only operating a small number of Frelons. Most of their heavier helicopters are Pumas and Cougars which are more in the medium segment.
Germany uses wet-leased An-124 to haul their CH-53 into theater. Smaller helicopters such as Hueys and Sea kings are sometimes transported by Airbus Belugas. Hueys were regularly flown into the Balkans on their own power.
Quoting Pelican (Reply 7): How do get such a huge chopper to a place like Afghanistan?
One of the HTH design goals was to fit in an An-124.
PADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1673 posts, RR: 7 Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 months 13 hours ago) and read 19900 times:
Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 9): what about flying there? I believe the RNLAF even flew some cougars there? (have to dig up the source though)
That is rather impractical. You have a certain limit of flying hours from one depot maintenance to the next one. In hot, high and dusty environments these hour limits decreases further due to safety considerations. You just cannot afford to waste a couple of dozen hours just to get from Europe to AStan. I think only the US have currently depot maintenance for helicopters in theater.
UH60FtRucker From Afghanistan, joined Mar 2005, 2877 posts, RR: 67 Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 months 12 hours ago) and read 19891 times:
Quoting PADSpot (Reply 8): One of the HTH design goals was to fit in an An-124.
Interesting.
But what if political or external events make it impractical/impossible to lease the An-124?
Does Germany have the naval ability to ship the aircraft to a theater? And I'm not talking about a commercial ship, but an official naval vessel with proper defensive abilities to operate in hostile environments.
...And for that matter, could the Mi-26 operate off of the French helicopter cruiser Jean D'Arc or the French carrier? I guess I'm just wondering, out loud, whether the Mi-26 is really something you would want to operate in hostile environments. The size is certainly a tactical hindrance, and the IR signature is large and unprotected.
And as I recall, wasn't Germany interested in building their own heavy lift helicopter? I remember Keesje talking about it some time ago.
Columba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 5610 posts, RR: 5 Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 months 10 hours ago) and read 19879 times:
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 11): Does Germany have the naval ability to ship the aircraft to a theater? And I'm not talking about a commercial ship, but an official naval vessel with proper defensive abilities to operate in hostile environments.
Maybe the "Berlin" and "Frankfurt" could ship them to a theater:
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 11): And as I recall, wasn't Germany interested in building their own heavy lift helicopter? I remember Keesje talking about it some time ago.
I guess you mean the Eurocopter HTH project
Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans - John Lennon
PADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1673 posts, RR: 7 Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 months 10 hours ago) and read 19879 times:
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 11): But what if political or external events make it impractical/impossible to lease the An-124?
Then we use ships, let them fly on their own power despite the maintenance issue or use smaller helos. With the full scale introduction of the NH-90 the CH-53 is going to see less use anyway. They certainly won't become obsolete, but with just 2Bil€ spent on modernization the remaining CH-53GA and -GS will easily serve until 2025-30. Then the NH-90 will be fully fielded, lowering the need for a large helo anyway to something near 40 frames. 40 frames will again be far too less to develop a new one helo and the replacement will be bought on shorter notice off-the-shelf. After 2020 the Mil Mi-26 will be no option anymore.
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 11): Does Germany have the naval ability to ship the aircraft to a theater? And I'm not talking about a commercial ship, but an official naval vessel with proper defensive abilities to operate in hostile environments.
Germany uses civil, mainly exclusively leased vessels for sea-lift. If these were to get into trouble German Navy is at any time authorized to provide cover, protection and escort even on board those vessels. These helicopters would also be operated by the army, so no amphibious task as we don't have an amphibious force.
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 11): And as I recall, wasn't Germany interested in building their own heavy lift helicopter?
HTH was the only project known to me.
Edit:
Quoting Columba (Reply 12): Maybe the "Berlin" and "Frankfurt" could ship them to a theater:
No, I don't think that would be practical. They wouldn't fit into the Hangar.
Tancrede From Finland, joined May 2006, 216 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 19670 times:
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 11): And for that matter, could the Mi-26 operate off of the French helicopter cruiser Jean D'Arc or the French carrier?
The Jeanne d’Arc will soon be decommissioned, by the year 2010. She will be replaced by the Mistral Class – an amphibious Assault, command and force Projection Ship. This class has two ships – Mistral and Tonnerre – and is a smaller version of the American LHD Tarawa-class, but still twice the size of the Jeanne d’Arc.
Keesje From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 9846 posts, RR: 51 Reply 16, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 8243 times:
France and Germany are close to taking a political decision to procure a heavy rotorcraft capable of lifting up to 13t of equipment and supplies or 70 troops over a range of 1,000km (540nm), says the European Defence Agency (EDA).
Steman From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 1171 posts, RR: 12 Reply 17, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 8210 times:
What keeps on surprising me is the long timing of military projects, even when it involves old types already in production.
If D and F go for the Mi-26, certainly not a newcomer on the market, they could have to wait 5 years between contract signing and initial deliveries.
And this is just one case. But basically EVERY military aviation contract involves veeeery long waiting times between contract and delivery.
Do they assemble each frame by hand?
What if an Armed Force needs urgently a machine?
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 10360 posts, RR: 67 Reply 18, posted (6 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 8168 times:
The Bundeswehr was originally conceived as a territorial defence force, which would not operate worldwide and was not supposed to have too much of offensive capablities (also to pacify our worried neighbours after WW2).
Since the end of cold war the situation has changed. We need to build up worldwide operating capabilities.
Concerning the Mil-26, I think one thought was to have a helicopter with enough performance reserves to be able to carry a sizeable load of cargo to hot and high destinations. The shortcome of the German helicopter fleet, which was optimised for operations in north-west Europe, was shown during the operations in Somalia and Afghanistan.
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 10360 posts, RR: 67 Reply 20, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7931 times:
Quoting Columba (Reply 19): Quoting Keesje (Reply 16):
I wonder if the MI-26 stands any political chance..
I hope not, it is outdated. My hope is for the CH 53K.
Why does it always have to be the newest gimmick? The mil-26 technology is proven. I'd rather go for reliability than the newest option, which still has teething problems.
Columba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 5610 posts, RR: 5 Reply 21, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7916 times:
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 20): Why does it always have to be the newest gimmick? The mil-26 technology is proven
The Mil 26 as it is used now is not an option. 5 man cockpit crew, dated avoinics etc....
The helicopter will be in service for 30 years so introducing an already 30 year old design is not a good idea. If so we could have simply rebuild the C160 instead of ordering the A400M.
A deep modernisation of the Mil 24 would be like a completely new development and it would take years until it would be available.
The CH 47F is already in service but too small. CH 53K is also a bit smaller than what it is written in the requirements but it will be the newest design of them all, but bigger and with more power than the CH 53G. Service entry for the US Marines is supposed to be 2015.
Also the German Army has long experience with the CH 53 why change a winning team
Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans - John Lennon
F27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1090 posts, RR: 6 Reply 22, posted (6 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 7807 times:
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 20): Why does it always have to be the newest gimmick? The mil-26 technology is proven. I'd rather go for reliability than the newest option, which still has teething problems.
Today it is an attraction for climbers in the swiss mountains. Soon the snow which covered it almost fully will be gone and authorities plan to bring it back to Germany. No one died at the failed landing. In the process of the incident the helicopter slided downhill 0.5 km like bobsled!
Just a short interuption into the relevant part of the thread!
F27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1090 posts, RR: 6 Reply 25, posted (6 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7506 times:
Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 23): Entirely unconnected. The F-4 is still used simply because the Eurofighter was delayed and the modernised F-4 does the job quite well.
it still is an old outdated airframe though.. right now the German Air Force is still training only one or two Typhoon pilots a year. You'll be flying the Phantom for a while.
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