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23 Mig-29 For 1 Euro  
User currently offline9A-CRO From Croatia, joined Jun 2000, 1574 posts, RR: 8
Posted (12 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3083 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR

Yup,
this is true
Poland "bought" 23 Fulcrums from Luftwaffe for 1 Euro
this is only about 4 cents for one Fulcrum

I hope they have more of these, i would like to buy myself a few of these  Smile Smile Smile


When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward...
24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offline9A-CRO From Croatia, joined Jun 2000, 1574 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (12 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2980 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR

and here is the link to the full story:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/newsid_1794000/1794284.stm



When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward...
User currently offlineSharpnfuzzy From Canada, joined Jun 2001, 570 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (12 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2937 times:

Although it's good to see them getting "newer" and more advanced aircraft.... I still can't wait to see an F-16 with the Polish checkerboard on it..... hopefully!!!!!

User currently offlineMagicMan_841 From Canada, joined Jan 2002, 182 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (12 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2908 times:

That ain't bad. Our Cessna 150 is worth more that 20000$....hee hee....

Math


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29813 posts, RR: 58
Reply 4, posted (12 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2890 times:

AH!!! common!!!!!.....

My crack about the value of migs was funny!! Laugh out loud

It did not deserve to get deleted. The political correctness here is going nuts Pissed

For anybody who missed it.....

I wrote, "You get what you pay for"  Laugh out loud

And I said it was a joke...Just like it is now!




OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (12 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2883 times:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/military/read.main/7421/

Would that happen to be it, L-188?  Big grin


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29813 posts, RR: 58
Reply 6, posted (12 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2875 times:

Ooops...... Embarrassment

My appologies to everybody....I could have sworn that I had put that post up on this topic.... Confused



How embarassing Innocent



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29813 posts, RR: 58
Reply 7, posted (12 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2872 times:

It must be all that caffenee Nuts


OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineMiG31 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (12 years 9 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 2845 times:

What the heck are you talking about?
I do not uderstand this kind of point of view of all the pple on this forum that Migs are inferior. Maybe that is due to their ignarance on the subject.

Kind Regards,


I.T.


User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (12 years 9 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2841 times:

MiG31, you didn't spell the word "ignorance" right.  Big grin

LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineLt-AWACS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (12 years 9 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2841 times:

well having studied their tactics and seen them fly, and even controlled them on a couple of occasions, for the most part they are inferior. The Helmet Mounted sight is good as are most Russian IR missiles but the Russians have no BVR (beyond Visual range) capability/ Also the planes are heavily GCI (ground control intercept) dependent . You make the plane look great at an airshow but tactical performance is what matters. THere is a reason the Germans are not doing much with their Mig-29's. They are falling apart.

The SU-27 and it's many new variants are the best overall FSu fighter out there, but the weapons, tactics and pilot training standards are not up to most Western Tactics and standards.

(This is all on an unclassified level) The classified info on these is better for discussion to bad we can't talk here, but that info from an unclass view proves my point.


User currently offlineMiG31 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (12 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2827 times:

Oh C'mon!
Everybody talking about German Fulcrums! They are ancient!
You cannot base your opinion on them! And can never compare them to Mig-29M for insrance!

Regards,

I.T.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29813 posts, RR: 58
Reply 12, posted (12 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2825 times:

MIG-31.....You do understand that I was joking...right???


OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2819 times:

"Russians have no BVR (beyond Visual range) capability"

We're still talking about aircraft, right? If the MiG-23, MiG-25, MiG-29, MiG-31, Su-27family, Su-37 etc. do not have BVR capability (according to your definition), than neither does the F-15, F-16 etc.

"Also the planes are heavily GCI (ground control intercept) dependent"

Well, duh! How else can you defend a country who's border is over 30,000km long?! How is that a flaw anyways? Couldn't the same be said about NATO's dependance on AWACS a/c?

"They are falling apart."

Maybe leaving all those Fulcrums out all winter long without touching them once wasn't such a good idea after all.  Yeah sure

"but the weapons, tactics and pilot training standards are not up to most Western Tactics and standards."

Why is it that you people always think that if something is different it has to be inferior?  Insane


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineLt-AWACS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2811 times:

actually the Russian do not have a fully operational AMRAAM missile with the BVR capes of the USA. This is fact. The Russians have great IR missiles but no BVR, anbd yes the US has a great BVR cape (the classified ranges might suprise you). Yes the russians are trying the 'AMRAAMski' as it is dubed but not working yet.  Smile

Everything I stated is true. I wasn't making it up or stating opinion. It is all things I have studied on both a classified and unclassified level, and flown against for years. Smile

Oh and NATO's use of AWACS is a little different than the US's, though NATO's BVR cape is still better then any FSU tactic.

Are you trying to be one of those people who let facts get in the way of a good argument?  Smile


User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2803 times:

How would you classify the AA-10/R-27 missile (carried, among others, by MiG-29's of all models, Su-27 family)? It is usually compared to the most advanced versions of the AIM-7 Sparrow, although most of it's versions are believed to have a significantly higher range. What about the AA-9/R-33 (carried by the MiG-31, comparable to the AIM-54 Phoenix)? AA-7/R-23/R-24 (MiG-23, somewhat comparable to AIM-7)? AA-6/R-40 (MiG-25/P/PD, Su-15, MiG-31)?

"anbd yes the US has a great BVR cape"

Never disputed that.

"Yes the russians are trying the 'AMRAAMski' as it is dubed but not working yet"

There you go suggesting that the AA-12/R-77 is a copy of the AIM-120...
That missile is estimated to have almost double the range of the AMRAAM, BTW. The missile has been in development since the very early 80's, FYI, while the AMRAAM entered service in 1991 if I'm not mistaken.


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineMiG31 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2792 times:

Thanks LY744! At least there is some1 on this forum who has respect for foreign aviation (not just US).
This is turning into a X vs. Y thing and it seems to me that people on this forum are gainst it, but I just wanted to express my anger at the fact that there are a lot of people on this forum who make so called 'jokes' about MiG with a pure intention to show its supposedly inferior qualities while it remains one of the many masterpieces of the Russian a/c industry.

Kind Regards,

I.T.


User currently offlineLt-AWACS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2781 times:

LY744 I don't know where you are getting your info, but it sounds like airshow or industry propaganda.

As for the Archers and Alamo's vs Aim-7 and Aim 9s that is great, in fact I said the one area Russia makes a better weapon than the US is in the IR missile industry, but Russia does not have a fully active i.e AR missile working. nothing close to the AIM-120. THe SAR i.e Semi active ones are okay, but your ranges are off.

I'm glad you like them, and they do look pretty at air shows. Why do people buy them now? they are cheap, but you get what you pay for. I've worked with MIGs in several countries and there are reasons they are looking to upgrade to NATO qual systems. I've sat in debriefs with their pilots and GCI in amazement that they couldn't do a 1/4 of what our forces could do in various excer. and such.


User currently offlineMiG31 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2775 times:

Ok, this sounds really childish and pathetic but: Lt-AWACS, wow you are so cool!

And there is no way that a MiG cannot do a 1/4 of what an F-16 does with its equipment ... I would change them the other way round really...

Kind Regards,


I.T.


User currently offlineWhiskeyNovembr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2761 times:


I must say...as a neutral bystander, Lt-AWACS has been laying the facts out on the table and backing them up with seemingly factual, accurate first-hand information. Let's give him some respect for doing so. Those arguing with him, on the other hand, seem to be having trouble presenting actual facts or data to back up their own claims.

I REALLY wish people on these forums would stop basing their arguments solely on their enthusiasm for one side.







User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2755 times:

"I REALLY wish people on these forums would stop basing their arguments solely on their enthusiasm for one side."

 Laugh out loud WN, search through my posts on this forum, and see who I've been acused of favoring more often...  Big grin

Lt-AWACS, my whole reply was addressing the "Russian don't have BVR capability" statement.

"As for the Archers and Alamo's"

Never even mentioned the Archer, why would I?

"but Russia does not have a fully active i.e AR missile working. nothing close to the AIM-120"

Even assuming that the AA-12 is indeed not operational as you say, that has nothing to do with what I was talking about, which is BVR capability, not active radar homing capability, which hasn't come up until now.

"THe SAR i.e Semi active ones are okay, but your ranges are off."

I didn't specify any ranges.

"but it sounds like airshow or industry propaganda....and they do look pretty at air shows"

What's your obsession with air shows?  Smile I've never seen a missile fired at an airshow.

As for my sources, everything I said in my previous reply can be atributed to general knowledge, but you can go to The Federation Of American Scientists' Military Analysis Network It is relatively impartial and will give you range numbers that should be used as a rough reference.
So, can you finally explain what you meant by saying that Russia doesn't have BVR capability?


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2754 times:

The AA-10/R-27 is also available as a radar (semi-active) guided missile, BTW.

LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineLt-AWACS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2756 times:

Semi active versus active missiles makes a big difference. Your Fire and Forget AIM-120s (and Aim54s with F-14Ds) actively guide on targets and allow the pilot to Notch (put the RADAR in the Beam) to get away from the adversary threat. The Russians cannot do this. Like our Aim-7s (which we rarely use now other the F-16 ADF on domestic CAPs) the Russian Semi Active missiles to which there are AA-8, 6, even 10s all must be supported by the pilot (or WSO in some cases) until it can be snipped at impact. This puts the pilot in more risk as he must get closer to the 'bad guy'. The Russian have great 'heaters' i.e. IR missiles better than the USA in some respects. They focus more on dogfighting while the US does not we focus on BVR (Beyond visual range) shots With 'unclassfied' ranges well better than the Russians. Thus The 'Active' missiles Aim 120 and the better RADARs (APG 66s, APG 70s and APG 63s etc) give the US their much, MUCH better BVR capes than the Russians (who once again focus on Dogfighting which the US does not)


The FSU (Former Soviet Union) and currently Russian doctrine worked more on Dogfighting with heavy GCI (Ground Control Intercept) dependence and very centralised command and control. WHile the USA and western countries focus on Autonomus Operations and decentrelised execution. Big difference

Oh I have also worked Mig 29's in the US (gee wonder where we get them???) and in Latin America along with the Germans and soon to be Polish Mig-29s.
The SU-27 and various MKK and MKI upgrades are still much more capable than the MIGs.
The SU-27 is the best product the Russians offer other than Pri Trainers.

Now:
The Mig-29 would be great if we (the USA) put a good RADAR in it like a APG 66, APG 63 or even the upgraded F-14s APG- 70. Move the HOTUS around on the mig 29 and give it better RWR gear (i.e. up to NATO standards) and it would be great.

many things go into making 'one plane better than another' but the Wests Pilot Training. Missiles, and RADARs, GCI and AWACS, along with support make most of the Western Platforms better than FSU/Russian platforms. Yes there are serious threats, the Soviets made some of the BEST SAMs around. The SA-5 is BIG threat, this is another reason they didn't focus on BVR technology.

You need to not get pissed. I commented not to upset you folks but point out some things I felt incorrect. As I fly dealing with this weekly. Not to mention the classified level off study our Air Weapons Officers (like me) go into on the AWACS.

and on the Fed of Scientists. yes it is a good base, though of course there are errors. Some countries and manufacturers fudge their numbers (shocking I know) higher or lower to look better or hide capes. I mention airshows because people think if they see it at an airshow it must be true, which of course is false.I will stop ranting now. Ciao


User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (12 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2750 times:

Who was that last post (especially the first paragraph) directed at?  Smile All I really want to know is what you meant when you said that "Russian don't have BVR capability", nothing less, nothing more. I know enough about the pathetic maintanence (or lack of it) policies most countries (with the exception of the US and possibly certain Asian nation/s) that operate the MiG-29 undertake, nor the fact that most operators (same exceptions as above) do not have the money to provide their pilots with anything that could be considered anywhere near adequate training. Nor do I care to discuss the tactics and doctrines used by the AF's operating it. I'm sure other users would appreciate it, though.  Smile

"The SA-5 is BIG threat"

Yeah, learned it the hard way last year.  Sad
Wonder how a HARM would do against an AWACS though.

"Some countries and manufacturers fudge their numbers (shocking I know)"

 Big thumbs up


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineLt-AWACS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (12 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2725 times:

The response was directed at no one just continuing the discussion thats all, and I know about he AA-10s I thought I stated their capes above, if I didn't make that clear sorry.

The Russians have no BVR capes (so to speak). You could argue semantics and say that a pilot might not have visual on a plane at 10-12 miles so the Russian Semi-Actives and Heaters, especially the 10 A and Cs could do a little 'BVR' but not in the sense of American and NATO BVR capes and standards. That is my point and part of the problems with the Radars which of course lead to problems with the planes. The Russians have fixed some of the minor issues with the SU-27 (and MIg)upgrades though they aren't exporting it all yet. The FSU planes aerodynamically are desigined great it is the insides that always have problems it seems.

as for the Harm thing:
It would be difficult to get up and pop a HARM off against us in the AWACS, and of course at that point we Turn the Radar and IFF off so it goes away.


More Tactics:
Granted Americans don't plan for dogfights anymore like the Russians but hte Aim-9X will keep us safe enough. This should rank up with the Russian IRs and the Israeli Pythons

Ciao


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