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Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says  
User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1700 posts, RR: 2
Posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 7455 times:

Quote:
TOKYO, Oct 17 (Reuters) - Japan is considering buying Eurofighter Typhoons to replace part of its ageing air force fleet, Defence Minister Shigeru Ishiba said in an interview on Wednesday.

Tokyo had shown interest in buying the Lockheed-Martin (LMT.N: Quote, Profile , Research) F-22 Raptor, which boasts stealth capabilities far superior to those of any other aircraft available, but the U.S. government is reluctant to allow the technology to be exported, even to a close ally such as Japan.

This is news to me, wonder how much was leaked.

Quote:
A scandal erupted this year when Japanese naval officers were reported to have leaked classified information about the Aegis radar system used on U.S. and Japanese missile-defence capable ships.

Anyhow, seems that Japan its pushing some buttons to get the Raptor.

http://investing.reuters.co.uk/news/...RIDST_0_JAPAN-DEFENCE-FIGHTERS.XML

68 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7088 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 7385 times:

A high ranked Eurofighter manager has just stated that the have high hopes on selling the aircraft to Japan. Would be as good news as JAL ordering the A380  Smile


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 7342 times:

Quoting Columba (Reply 1):
A high ranked Eurofighter manager has just stated that the have high hopes on selling the aircraft to Japan. Would be as good news as JAL ordering the A380

 Smile ... yep would be a good move, although I think this more meant as a demonstration of consequences if the US further stick to the export ban on the F-22. Selling EFs to Japan might be as likely as selling A380s or A350s ... but sure it would be great.

Does anybody know how export sales are allocated to final assembly sites? BAe builds EFs for Saudi Arabia, EADS Germany for Austria but who WOULD build Greek, Dutch, Norwegian, Swiss or Japanese EFs IN CASE they ordered them and did not demand license production (as Japan certainly did).


User currently offlineN74jw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 7235 times:

I think is a great prospect for Japan and the Eurofighter consortium.

User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3391 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 7230 times:

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 2):
Does anybody know how export sales are allocated to final assembly sites? BAe builds EFs for Saudi Arabia, EADS Germany for Austria but who WOULD build Greek, Dutch, Norwegian, Swiss or Japanese EFs

I think that the 4 countries participating in Eurofighter are individually allocated areas in each one is responsible for marketing the Typhoon. I think that if you get a sale, you get to assemble the aircraft involved in the sale.


User currently offlineBobski From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 83 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 7224 times:

I'm working in procurement BAE Systems at the moment, and Japan is considered to be a serious potential export customer. Raptor, while a very good aircraft (I prefer Typhoon, but then I'm biased as I'm working on the programme), is extremely expensive and the likelihood of the American Gov't allowing exports of it anytime soon are very slim.

[Edited 2007-10-18 07:54:04]


Who is Benjamin Breeg?
User currently offlineBobski From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 83 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 7219 times:

Quoting Bobski (Reply 5):
I think that the 4 countries participating in Eurofighter are individually allocated areas in each one is responsible for marketing the Typhoon. I think that if you get a sale, you get to assemble the aircraft involved in the sale.

He who makes the sale does the final assembly for the aircraft. Each partner nation in the consortium still builds their individual parts (e.g. the front fuselages at BAE Samlesbury). A Japanese order would likely include licence built a/c.



Who is Benjamin Breeg?
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12173 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 7218 times:

Would the EuroFighters replace just the JASDF F-4Js, or the F-15Js, too? Would they be built, under license, in Japan, like most of the F-4Js and F-15Js were?

Quoting Acheron (Thread starter):
Quote:
A scandal erupted this year when Japanese naval officers were reported to have leaked classified information about the Aegis radar system used on U.S. and Japanese missile-defence capable ships.

Yeap, that will help their case to buy the F-22, or even the F-35. Tell everyone how the AEGIS radar on the Tico class CGs and Burke class DDGs work.  banghead 


User currently offlineEBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 7209 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 7):
Would the EuroFighters replace just the JASDF F-4Js, or the F-15Js, too? Would they be built, under license, in Japan, like most of the F-4Js and F-15Js were?

Replace the F-4s first, I'm sure. As I recall, Japan got their Eagles fairly early in the program so they're likely at the age where they need replacement relatively soon as well.



Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12173 posts, RR: 51
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 7195 times:

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 8):
Replace the F-4s first, I'm sure. As I recall, Japan got their Eagles fairly early in the program so they're likely at the age where they need replacement relatively soon as well.

I agree on the F-4Js, which are close to the USAF F-4E configuration, the last delivered in the mid 1970s. But, they bought the F-15Js in two buys (all of their F-15s are called "J" models). The first buy were really F-15A/Bs, some 45 airplanes (built in the mid 1980s), the second buy of about 60 airplanes were actually F-15C/Ds Built in the early 1990s). As I said all JASDF F-15s are designated F-15Js, I believe they use block numbers to separate the differences.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13241 posts, RR: 77
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 7142 times:

Didn't they update their F-4EJ fleet, including with APG-66 radar?
Even so, they are in need of replacement.
It will be interesting to see how they do it, an enhanced version of the F-2 fighter, seems out of the running.


User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4938 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 7102 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 10):
It will be interesting to see how they do it, an enhanced version of the F-2 fighter, seems out of the running.

They might have the existing F-2s replace the F-4EJs, the older F-15Js take on the job vacated by the F-2s, the newer F-15Js remaining as frontline fighters until the new buys take over the F-15C/Ds.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 7063 times:

There is a weapons race going on in Asia. All they want is F22s, the only western aircraft that can face the su-30 mki 's piling up in the region, and it doesn't stop with the Flankers.. The Chinese are not sitting on their hands.


J-XX, Chinese new fighter.

Japan is applying political pressure on the US to allow export of the F22. They are also threatened to start developing their own steatlh fighter.

Aircraft like the J-10 (likely developed with IAI (Lavi)) are entering mass production.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/62/Chengdu_J-10_3-view.gif/800px-Chengdu_J-10_3-view.gif


User currently offlineN74JW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 6 days ago) and read 7041 times:

Great post Keesje!

Where did you find that stuff?


User currently offlineBritjap From Japan, joined Aug 2006, 280 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6938 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 12):
J-XX, Chinese new fighter

From everything Ive read about that in the past year it seems that it is nothing more than a model. Not even a test frame of any sort, purely just a model.

Thats what I am hoping anyway!!


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 6900 times:

The J-XX is planned for 2015, this picture is likely a mock-up / study model.

issue is the Japanese Phantoms are up for replacement in a few years & the replacement have to last 20 yrs.

Buying Eurofighter would probably not create the level of confidence the Japanese want.

And the Chineese industry is studying more models.


Shenyang J-12


Chengdu J-13

In the mean time they are ramping up J-10 production.



and chineese pilots are building up experience on their Su-27J-11Su-30 fleets



The SU30's giant aesa radars & vimpel missiles aren't really inferior either.

Now imagine you are a Japanese Phantom pilot. I think you realize you need an upgrade soon to face the next 20 yrs and probably not a Typhoon.


User currently offlineAutoThrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1604 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 6874 times:

J-XX, Chinese new fighter.

LOL, with such big Candards it will have a RCS of a 747 but doesn't matter anyway its only a model.

Quote:
Ishiba said the strongest alternative among planes manufactured by other countries was the Eurofighter.

"The French Rafale is difficult to use. We certainly wouldn't choose a Russian fighter plane.

So much for the outdated concept crap. The French Rafale is difficult to use ; in other words Radar not enough Range and no LPI, no supercruise, insufficient sensorfusion, etc..

Quoting Keesje (Reply 15):
Buying Eurofighter would probably not create the level of confidence the Japanese want.

And the RAFALE or J-XX or Su-30 would?  crazy  Japanes MOD dont agree with this. But hey what do they know...

Quoting Keesje (Reply 15):

The SU30's giant aesa radars & vimpel missiles aren't really inferior either.

The radar is difficult to say, however the vimpel are much inferior then the METEOR.



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7088 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 6860 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 15):
Buying Eurofighter would probably not create the level of confidence the Japanese want.

But it still the best to get for them if they don´t get the F-22. The Typhoon Tranche 3 equiped with Meteor and other new missles will be a good and state of the art aircraft. Maybe Eurofighter will develop some modification for Japan and offer them a partnership.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 6853 times:

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 16):
Quoting Keesje (Reply 15):
Buying Eurofighter would probably not create the level of confidence the Japanese want.

... or J-XX or Su-30 would? Japanes MOD dont agree with this.

 beady  uhm.. they are the most likely opponents Auto..

They need something to scare away possibel J-XX / Su 30MKI

The Typhoon is probably not the airpower they really need want for that requirement.

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/447B0D38-658E-42AF-901B-CA755E5864F7/0/GLD075255.jpg

I have the feeling you don't really believe this is all about getting Japan getting its 100 F22 do you?

They feel they have to act because of the Chinees weapon build up. Same goes for South Korea and India.

http://wpherald.com/articles/4535/1/...rlds-second-biggest-air-force.html

Japan signals they will fill in this requirement anyway, with or without the US. They already started working with the french on their own now the Mitsubishi ATD-X.


Mitsubishi ATD-X http://jasonjeffrey.wordpress.com/20...r-announced-as-return-of-the-zero/



User currently offlineBobski From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 83 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 6850 times:

You don't need a Raptor to counter an Su-30MKI. Typhoon is more than up to the task, as the Indians found out over the summer.

Typhoon is more agile than any potential adversary, that is a fact. It has flown against and beaten all of its competition in exercises and in fly-offs. The only exception being the Raptor, although there are reports of Typhoon flying against and beating the Raptor in the US recently.



Who is Benjamin Breeg?
User currently offlineF27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6809 times:

Quoting Bobski (Reply 19):
although there are reports of Typhoon flying against and beating the Raptor in the US recently.

I'd like to have a link to any of these if you can give them  Smile


User currently offlineN74jw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6810 times:

Quoting Bobski (Reply 19):
You don't need a Raptor to counter an Su-30MKI. Typhoon is more than up to the task, as the Indians found out over the summer.

The Indians did hold back a bit. Their radar sets were turned off in most of the engagements to satisfy the Russian export requirement, and in light of prowling USAF RC-135s. To the same extent, the Typhoon was not used to it's fullest potential in IAF engagements for the same reasons.


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6799 times:

Quoting Bobski (Reply 19):
You don't need a Raptor to counter an Su-30MKI. Typhoon is more than up to the task, as the Indians found out over the summer.

Lets keep pride & hope away from reality.

The newer Flankers have Thrust steering. The have a very powerfull BARS ESA 1 metre class X-band phased array antenna radar and potent AA weaponary, http://www.ausairpower.net/russian-aams.png including serious air to surface.. When new radars under devlopment are retrofitted (Irbis E) the issue grows.



http://www.ausairpower.net/Su-30-AAMs.png

I'm not trying to scare you folks  Wink , just explaining why the Japanese probably won't think the Typhoon is the best solution for them and they are trying to get F22's rather sooner then later. They don't want to be outgunned.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31259 posts, RR: 85
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6788 times:
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Well ATC is always going to play a critical role, as well. If you can smoke your target 100 klicks out because your controllers can vector you into firing position well before the other guy's controllers can, having fancy missiles and on-board radars (which just help your opponent's missiles find you that much easier) isn't going to be much help...

And that is an area where Japan, ROK, and Singapore will likely be at an advantage to China...

Of course, I expect the USAF might like some more F-22 buys to lower the unit cost to help them get more of their own through Congress, and LM/Boeing I am sure would like to sell more.


User currently offlineN74jw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 6767 times:

Is it out of the question that the USAF may eventually base some F-22A's in Japan? Would the JASDF need to buy then at that point? No doubt, the F-4EJ's do need to be retired and are probably up on their airframe hours.

25 TexL1649 : No USAF F-22's in Japan. There won't be any 'extras' to base there. Japan will probably be allowed to purchase the F-22's pretty soon, as will Austral
26 Post contains links and images AutoThrust : As you wish , Sir! http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/1818077.stm Air Power Review, Volume 20 Whether this is true or not is will let decide you.
27 F27Friendship : thanks for the links! quite interesting!
28 AutoThrust : Np, you are welcome. I think a lot of people underate the EF because of the look of the aircraft.
29 Columba : No most people (at least in Germany) do because they still think of it as the "Jaeger 90", developed in the 1980s to fight East German and Russian Mi
30 Acheron : The N011 Bars radar is PESA, not AESA. Same for the newest N035 Irbis-E on the Su-35 and the improved version to be installed in the PAK-FA. Don't wo
31 N74jw : I would not be so sure about that. PACAF already has two bases slated for F-22A's. It would not be much of a stretch to forward-deploy them if necess
32 PADSpot : That wouldn't surprise me if it had PIRATE installed. Through sensor fusion radar can be locked on a target which is tracked by the IRST. If meteorol
33 Post contains links DEVILFISH : I think Japan is more concerned with this..... http://www.npo-saturn.ru/!new/photoshow.php?slang=0&id=29
34 Acheron : To be fair(and getting ahead of the "russias copies everything" crowd), noone knows how the PAK-FA will look like other than the people working in th
35 Post contains images AutoThrust : Agreed. PESA Radars are considered a technological dead-end. The Captor AESA Radar has been recently tested, soon it will be ready. The Meteor was ma
36 Post contains links and images Keesje : Give them some time, they have the resources / ambitions to start up parallel programs to full-fill requirements. http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce
37 Acheron : According to who?. The russians considered that going AESA for the Su-35 didn't offer any particular advantage, and since they seem to have a achieve
38 PADSpot : According to scientific insights in all defense industries around the world. Russian defense industry is so in love with PESA, because it was all the
39 Post contains links and images Keesje : Thing is many recognized the value of buying SU-30 and did so, specially in Asia. Military operators of the Su-30 Operators of the Su-27: http://uplo
40 PADSpot : We were talking about METEOR and its Russian counterparts, where both are certainly fine products but neither side can claim any sort of combat exper
41 Stitch : The K-172's range of close to two-thirds of the APY-1's range certainly would. I suppose the next step will be SWAC - Spaceborne Warning and Control.
42 Post contains images BilgeRat : Yes I think this weapon would give USAF and NATO planners some very bad dreams I suppose the only real countermeasure for the E-3 would be for it to
43 Post contains images Highlander0 : Keejse- nice videos, however, I can't speak Chinese or Russian, so is there a transcript available? I've picked up on some posts * * that you don't th
44 Post contains links Keesje : I think we are not talking carrierborn aircraft here. Range, multirole capabilities stea+t, thrustvectoring are benchmarks for the future. IMO europe
45 Highlander0 : Sooo, never mind the J-10A or Raptor diagrams on there? Keesje, it appears you don't believe that the Eurofighter is a capable aircraft, or one which
46 Wvsuperhornet : Looks like a Su-35 front and a YF-23 Rear. But I agree with the candards it will have a large rcs cross section thats probably why there are none on
47 Wvsuperhornet : WOW the press will print anything to help EADS sell an aircraft. Just to note this has been discussed before and several people working with the F-22
48 Post contains links Keesje : The Typhoon might be a very nice aircraft for folks that have seen it at airshows making a lot of noise / sharp turns etc. Me too thought so, when I
49 Post contains links Art : Is that so? Source? IIRC Typhoon supercruises with 6 missiles. My source is currently unavailable: www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk
50 Post contains images AutoThrust : Yes though, the Canards do improve agility and thats also the reason why they are small on the typhoon and have RAM on the critical sides. Yeah sure,
51 F27Friendship : how true: "The best place for a canard is on your opponents nose" not entirely true Keesje. All partners now have multi-role Typhoons (will get bette
52 Post contains images Keesje : And now you have to back up it's false information.. it can carry bombs, another expensive tranche x is needed to make it competitive "The committed
53 F27Friendship : I'm sorry, but your quote really says schedule for delivery. They could not get the aircraft fast enough. I'm afraid you are interpreting too much. I
54 PADSpot : Canards do not reflect much radar energy due to the obtuse angle. Only their edges have an disproportional effect on RCS and that is why the EF's can
55 Post contains links and images Keesje : I think developments like the J-XX, KFX-201, Mitsubishi ATD-X, Shenyang J-12, Chengdu J-13, PAK-FA, SU/47 and T-50 don´t give us signals we can lean
56 Stitch : That's a slick looking plane. Kind of reminds me of the YF-23 in some ways. Which one is it?
57 PADSpot : I think that is the same J-XX concept as the mock-up in thread 12. Looks radar-wise stealthy to me.
58 F27Friendship : Sure, you can specalute all you want, but don't sell it as the reason why Singapore didn;t go for Typhoon..
59 Post contains links Keesje : perhaps you can help me out with the "systems did not meet the requirements of the Singapore Air Force" part ? Limited air-ground capabilities and a
60 Art : Eurofighter uses a lean manufacture approach. IIRC this unfortunately means that it is not practical to increase the production rate by more than 20%
61 GDB : You got that right Art, especially back then, with the status of Tranche 2 and beyond, in fact, RSAF people have said so in public. It was about timin
62 PADSpot : Well, as I know the Japanese for their marked preference for fast and posh cars, Mr Hammond & Co might have set up the right benchmark for them. Eurof
63 Acheron : Then the Zhuk AE is a figment of our imagination?. Please do. I think few were fired in the Ecuador-Peru war, but I'm not sure. I need to check. That
64 L-188 : I have to agree that the chi-coms are channeling Northrop. Don't joke, the ruskies where not bad at rocket science.
65 PADSpot : Of course they were. They were great in developing all that "rocket science". Eventually all those electro-mechanical basics of stealth technology is
66 Post contains links and images Keesje : I think the Russians pioneered phased array radars on the Mig31. During the cold war they kept the more powerfull interceptors for themselves (e.g. MI
67 N74JW : I wouldn't want one looking for me...
68 PADSpot : Yep, but they mostly stayed on the "passive" side to avoid some of the technology and money pitfalls that come with AESA. The MiG-31 is still very un
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