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User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4840 posts, RR: 1
Posted (6 years 11 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

I was waiting for someone to start a thread on this, but since nobody did, decided to come up to the plate myself.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...w-fighters-come-from-israel-01499/

Quote:
"Now reports in the Israeli press indicated that Romania and may go another route, and spend $150 million to purchase 'dozens' of used F-16A Netz (Hebrew for 'Falcon') aircraft from Israel. Israeli contractor Elbit Systems would be the lead contractor, overseeing their refurbishment and upgrade with newer Israeli electronics.

This could be a good deal for both parties. The Romanians would receive a version of the most widely-adopted fighter in NATO, with electronics that would be interoperable with NATO standards. The reports note that the Israeli Air force ('Cheyl Ha'Avir') plans to phase out at least some of its 75 older F-16A/B planes as it introduces 102 new F-16I Soufa (Storm) jets, which incorporate all of the F-16 Block 52 advancements plus Israeli electronics and weapons. Reports claim that a special committee has been set up to coordinate the various stages of what seems to be a complicated deal.

[.....]

Its possible choices also tend to narrow down to the lightweight fighter segment, in order to achieve even the 24 modern fighters desired for the kind of money the country will want to spend.

That leaves a small set of options:

* Used F-16 Falcons, from Israel or from other NATO countries.

* Mirage 2000s, possibly used, from France.

* Leased JAS-39 Gripens from Sweden. May be more expensive than used aircraft, but provides a 4th-generation fighter and comes with industrial offsets.

* Russian aircraft with upgraded Western avionics et. al., much as Israel did for their Lancers. The MiG-29 is the only modern Russian fighter in Romania's likely cost profile. Downsides include minimized NATO interoperability, and extra costs per plane due to the required refit.

The one potential downside to the F-16 is the necessity of US approval for technology transfer or sale. After all, these Romanian deal rumours come hot on the heels of the forced freeze of Venezuela's $100 million F-16A upgrade contract with Israel, under a new system in which the USA exercises far more say than ever before regarding Israeli weapons deals.

[.....]

In Romania's case, however, Israel is transferring the weapons themselves, not just maintaining them with Israeli technology. Formal American approval has always been required for any transfer of US equipment to third countries.

Fortunately, sales to a new NATO member like Romania aren't likely to attract any vetos from the USA.

Indeed, rumor has it that the potential deal with Romania was given a provisional green light by the American government and by Lockheed Martin. If matters have reached that point, the F-16 deal with the Israeli government is at a more advanced stage than the Romanians are letting on."


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Admittedly, those early, former ANG A/Bs are tired old birds and the $150M price reflects it - but could this be the breakthrough needed for IAI's Falcon ACE upgrade package to gain its first sale?


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4682 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (6 years 11 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

I'm confused - upgraded Israeli F-16s were the first aircraft to be considered. Then the focus shifted away from them, towards the Gripen, new F-16s, the Eurofighter and the Rafale. From what the Romanian press wrote on this matter, they want 48 aircraft, not 24, and a budget of $3.5bn has been allocated for the programme (but that also includes the money for new SAMs).


Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4682 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (6 years 11 months 4 days ago) and read 32767 times:

Gotta correct my self, depending on the source, the value of the contract could be between 3.5 and 4.4 billion EUROS...

At the moment, the Eurofighter and the Gripen seem to be the frontrunners, but we shall see who is going to come out on top.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineN74jw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (6 years 11 months 4 days ago) and read 32767 times:

My money is on the Gripen. If I had to forecast...

There are sufficient in-roads into this market by Saab, and all the FAR has to do is visit a neighbor, or two...


User currently offlineWvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 517 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 11 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting DEVILFISH (Thread starter):
The one potential downside to the F-16 is the necessity of US approval for technology transfer or sale. After all, these Romanian deal rumours come hot on the heels of the forced freeze of Venezuela's $100 million F-16A upgrade contract with Israel, under a new system in which the USA exercises far more say than ever before regarding Israeli weapons deals.

I dont know much about this but I assumed it was already a done deal I know the US had already approved the sale and upgrade of these aircraft several years ago from Isreal to Romania so the US denying it isnt going to happen. Well Unless Romania decides to vote Hugo Chavez in as president anyway..lol. (Just trying to be funny) I doubt that would happen. Romania has back both US lead wars and weather you like President Bush or not one thing he has been is very loyal to to the allies that have helped up with military equipment. Anyway I feel this would be their best option at least until they have the money and the F-35 is availible, the only other option I could see them going for is the F-18 E/F but that would probably be overkill for a small country like Romania. The Israeli used F-16 have relativley low mileage on them and would be a perfect fit for a country like romania that and I believe Israel upgraded their MIG-21 some years back so they are familiar with each other.


User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4682 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (6 years 11 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

I really hope they go for the Rafale.

Quoting N74jw (Reply 3):
My money is on the Gripen. If I had to forecast...

Preferably the Gripen NG...



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineEBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (6 years 11 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting DEVILFISH (Thread starter):
Admittedly, those early, former ANG A/Bs are tired old birds and the $150M price reflects it - but could this be the breakthrough needed for IAI's Falcon ACE upgrade package to gain its first sale?

I don't believe Israel got former ANG birds. I thought all of their F-16s were purchased new. Now, if we're talking about pulling some of the old US ANG birds from the bone yard and updating them, I'd have to agree they're already tired and are best left sitting where they are.



Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently offlineN74jw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 11 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 6):
I'd have to agree they're already tired and are best left sitting where they are.

I'll take one... It will make a great gate guard for my driveway.


User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4840 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (6 years 11 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 6):

I don't believe Israel got former ANG birds. I thought all of their F-16s were purchased new.

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article7.html

Introduction

"The Israel Defense Force/Air Force ordered a total of 362 F-16s, from early F-16A/Bs to the latest F-16I. Fifty of these aircraft were surplus USAF aircraft, given to Israel by the US as payment for restraint during the 1991 Gulf War despite Scud attacks. All Israeli F-16s are fitted with custom Israeli electronics."

Peace Marble IV

"As payment for restraint during the 1991 Gulf War, Israel was provided with 50 surplus USAF F-16A/B's, all Block 10 aircraft. Contrary to earlier deliveries, these aircraft retained their USAF air superiority gray color scheme at that time. The aircraft are called Netz II locally. The first of these (ex- 'DO' 907th FG and 'MI' 127th FW aircraft) were delivered on August 1st, 1994 under the Peace Marble IV program. The delivery was completed in late 1994.

About half of these aircraft were ex-ANG/AFRes aircraft, with the remainder being brought out of storage at Davis-Monthan AFB. The largest batch delivered to Israel were 12 F-16A/B's from the 157th Fighter Interceptor Squadron from the South Carolina ANG. These F-16A/B's will be used primarily for training, but will undergo a number of modifications prior to entering IDFAF service."



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineF27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (6 years 11 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 4):
option I could see them going for is the F-18 E/F but that would probably be overkill for a small country like Romania.

Actually Romania isn't that small, as you can see on this map.

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 4):
believe Israel upgraded their MIG-21 some years back so they are familiar with each other.

Romanian Aerostar is an important MiG upgrader itself.

I'd put my money on Gripen BTW. Not sure what Romania's ambitions in NATO are, but I can image they have other prioritues over having a large expiditionary force.


User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4840 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (6 years 4 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Update:

As it turns out, the U.S. is offering Romania 24 new Block 50 or 52 aircraft, and another 24 used Block 25 F-16C/Ds for a total cost of US$ 4.5 billion.....Does Romania have that much money to spare?

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ian-air-force-for-4.5-billion.html

Quote:
"A combination of new and used Lockheed Martin F-16s equipped with targeting pods and helmet-mounted mission controls highlight new details of the US government's estimated $4.5 billion bid to supply the Romanian Air Force with 48 multi-role fighters.

[.....]

The US will offer 24 new F-16C/Ds Block 50 or 52s, depending on Romania's engine choice, and 24 used F-16C/D Block 25s powered by Pratt & Whitney engines."



http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/a...aeronautics/products/f16/f16_4.jpg

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/produc.../f16/versions/f-16-block50-52.html

Video here.....

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/products/f16/index.html

[Edited 2008-05-19 18:41:09]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineWvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 517 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 4 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 10):
As it turns out, the U.S. is offering Romania 24 new Block 50 or 52 aircraft, and another 24 used Block 25 F-16C/Ds for a total cost of US$ 4.5 billion.....Does Romania have that much money to spare?

As crappy as the US dollar is doing now, if they are going to purchase any new US military hardware now would be the time to do it, they would get more bang for the buck "so to speak anyway". Personally I think Romania has helped us out enough I would really like to see the US do the same thing for them militararly as far as assistance as they do for Israel, I think our technology would be more secure over there. That and the Romanian economy while not strong by western european standards is doing much better. But i have no vote in it just shouting out!!!!..lol


User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4682 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (6 years 4 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 11):

Actually the Romanian economy is booming.

But if Romania buys F-16s, I'd prefer Block 60 aircraft.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineWvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 517 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 4 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting A342 (Reply 12):
Actually the Romanian economy is booming.

But if Romania buys F-16s, I'd prefer Block 60 aircraft.

Really thats a good thing then. I would prefer the block 60 also, but I am not sure Romania would need a advanced aircraft like that, the block 60 is on the same lines as the F-35 but without the stealth it may be a little too much aircraft for them. The block 52 is a good aircraft and will do them a good job.


User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4840 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Update:

Another "near" decision.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-on-mig-21-lancer-replacement.html

Romania nears decision on MiG-21 Lancer replacement
By Luca Peruzzi

Quote:
"Romania could announce the winner of a tender for up to 48 new fighter aircraft within the next six months, say government defence representatives. However, the conclusion of its contest will depend on the near-term election of a new government and approval for a budget allocation that could yet reduce acquisition numbers."



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineTGIF From Sweden, joined Apr 2008, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 7 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 32579 times:

Update:

Looks like the economic crises has taken it's toll ones again:

Quote:
BUCHAREST, Feb 19 (Reuters) - Romania is likely to shelve multibillion-euro plans to buy fighter planes to bring its air force up to NATO standards this year because of a lack of cash in its crisis-stricken budget, a senior coalition official said.

...

"Purchasing fighter jets this year is out of the question in such a difficult situation," Mircea Geoana, head of the coalition's Social Democrat party (PSD), told Reuters.

http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSLI36950320090219

First Croatia and now Romania. Do I dare to guess we'll see similar delays in other 'East European' countries also shopping for new fighters?


User currently offlineTGIF From Sweden, joined Apr 2008, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 6 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 20407 times:

It looks as Romania finally found the money to fund it new fighter purchase. 24 second hand F-16

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLDE62M2C720100323

Quote:
"Taking into account that Romania does not have the needed financial resources to buy new ... planes, the Council okayed a defence ministry proposal to acquire 24 F16 used planes," the council said in a statement.

It said the plan would be subject to parliament's approval.

Romania is a U.S. ally and some analysts had said the F16 was a likely choice.

It's been said that Romania will get the 24 F-16's for "free" from the US. Romania will however have to pay to get the Block 25 F-16 into flyable condition. IMO, this will be far from cheap... But I guess once again, strategic partnership is more important than the actual fighters.


User currently offlinesasd209 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Oct 2007, 642 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 6 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 20165 times:

Quoting TGIF (Reply 16):
But I guess once again, strategic partnership is more important than the actual fighters

Do the Block 25 F-16's not meet the mission intended by the Romanian govt?


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4397 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (4 years 6 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 20088 times:

I think every flight worthy F16 meets the missions intended by Romania. They are surrounded by allies. and the conflicts in the regions ( Armenia/Georgia/Azerbaijan/Russia) don't touch them in any way. If it came to a conflict with Russia, it wouldn't matter either if the 24 F16s are Block 25 or Block 60 to be honest.

User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 781 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 6 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 20010 times:

Quoting sasd209 (Reply 17):
Do the Block 25 F-16's not meet the mission intended by the Romanian govt?

Likely they do,but the ordervalue estimated to be approx. 1.3 Billion $ (for uppgrading) devided by 24 makes it a ....54 Million per plane!! for a F-16 block 25 from the 80,s..l.....would't be my first choice. Perhaps they have a good salesorganization at LM  



It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
User currently offlineTGIF From Sweden, joined Apr 2008, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 6 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 20000 times:

Quoting sasd209 (Reply 17):
Do the Block 25 F-16's not meet the mission intended by the Romanian govt?

I believe I chose a poor wording. I meant to imply that money had little to do with it and strategic partnership was a larger factor.
Second hand Gripens or Mirages could have been equally cheap with the former definitely cheaper to operate than the F-16's. The F-16's will most certainly fulfill every role.


User currently offlinesasd209 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Oct 2007, 642 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 6 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 19883 times:

OK, I perhaps misunderstood the intent there.  

While the F-16 is a good aeroplane, I'd like to see what the support costs for each entry would be like.


User currently onlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4840 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (4 years 6 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 19822 times:

Quoting TGIF (Reply 20):
Second hand Gripens or Mirages could have been equally cheap with the former definitely cheaper to operate than the F-16's. The F-16's will most certainly fulfill every role.

As they say, "You gets what you pays for" --- which those at SAAB see as a reason for consternation.....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...-romania%27s-f_16-jets-choice.html

"Swedish Saab surprised at Romania's F-16 jets choice"


Though I find it incredible that Romania is setting its sights on the F-35.....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...-new-f_16s-as-lead_in-for-jsf.html

Quote:
"Given that Romania does not have the financial resources necessary for the acquisition of new multirole aircraft, CSAT has approved the Defence Ministry’s proposal to acquire 24 used F-16 aircraft.

[.....]

In this respect, the strategy set out the following steps:
- An initial stage involving the acquisition of 24 used F-16 Block 25 aircraft;
- An intermediate stage involving the acquisition of an additional 24, new-build F-16 aircraft of the Block 50-52 version;
--A final phase involving the service introduction of 24 F-35 JSF aircraft, which will replace the first batch of F-16 aircraft originally purchased."


IMHO, Super Vipers would be a more practical intermediate solution as they could go farther into the future in case the F-35s prove to be too ambitious.....

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/assets/aeronautics/products/f16/f-16in-1.jpg
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/a...onautics/products/f16/f-16in-1.jpg



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently onlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4840 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 18359 times:

And speaking of cheap, SAAB must have fired its best, parting shot.....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...ers-cut-price-jets-to-romania.html

"Sweden offers cut price jets to Romania"

Never say die.....         

[Edited 2010-04-16 03:31:23]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 781 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 18288 times:

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 22):
- An initial stage involving the acquisition of 24 used F-16 Block 25 aircraft;

This has been on the table for over three years now....and still no 25 years old F-16 on the tarmac,due to the lack of money,the F-35 feels ...i will probably not live to see it  
Quoting Devilfish (Reply 22):
Though I find it incredible that Romania is setting its sights on the F-35.....

Talk is cheap.....

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 22):
"Swedish Saab surprised at Romania's F-16 jets choice"

I am surprised that they are surprised....they should know this buisness by now.
  



It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
25 wvsuperhornet : I wouldn't be too sure about a block 60 in the hands of a skilled pilot the block 60 is a very advanced light aircraft and would be a handfull for a
26 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : Latest excerpts from DID..... Quote: "Price matching from Gripen, Eurofighter, as Parliament considers its options. (May 14/10)..... May 11/10: The Eu
27 Post contains links DEVILFISH : Update: It appears Romania's decision last March is headed nowhere for the time being..... http://www.haaba.com/news/2010/06/11...ford-buying-f-16-jet
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