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Croatian AF Getting Back On Strength  
User currently offlineTripleDelta From Croatia, joined Jul 2004, 1123 posts, RR: 7
Posted (6 years 10 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5701 times:
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Here's a bit of welcome news for the Croatian Air Force. The Ministry of Defense has signed agreements for three new AT-802s and two CL-415s to boost its numbers during the summer fire season, which would bring the total fleet sizes to 4 and 6 respectively. (sources: Minstry of Defense (Croatian only) and the printed 27 Nov - 3 Dec edition of Flight International). The first AT-802 is due to be delivered by the end of January 2008, with the other two by May. No news yet on delivery dates for the Canadairs.

Meanwhile, the first two Mi-171s - out of a batch of 10 - are due to arrive shortly, transported in the insides of an An-124, to the delight of local spotters...  bigthumbsup .

The AF has gone on a bit of a shopping spree lately... first Mi-171s, then Zlin 242s, AT-802s and CL-415s...


No plane, no gain.
71 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineN74JW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 5666 times:

Great news!

What does the AF use the AT-802 for, glider tug?


User currently offlineMig21UMD From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 269 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5632 times:



Quoting N74JW (Reply 1):
What does the AF use the AT-802 for, glider tug?

The are used as water bombers, fighting fires.

'No news yet on delivery dates for the Canadairs.' .... These may by a few years away since there is a backlog of close to two years for the CL415


Re' the Zlins, are they being used yet?

TripleDelta,

Any news you have re' Croatian air force is always appreciated. Thanks for and keep up the post.

Cheers.



Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you long to return
User currently offlineMig21UMD From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 269 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5631 times:



Quoting TripleDelta (Thread starter):
(sources: Minstry of Defense (Croatian only)

http://www.morh.hr/en/vijesti_main_en.asp?id=491

Link in english.



Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you long to return
User currently offlineTripleDelta From Croatia, joined Jul 2004, 1123 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5627 times:
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Quoting N74JW (Reply 1):
What does the AF use the AT-802 for, glider tug?

As Mig21UMD said, they're used for fighting forest fires in less accessible areas. Though the current examples - all one of them Big grin - lack the "scoop as you go" functionality of the Candairs, their smaller size and greater agility in tight environments make up for it. The MoD seems to be going in the right direction in ordering the "Fire Boss" amphibian version - if that's indeed the version they ordered.

Good show by the AF in operating a mixed fleet, rather than just one or the other. The current firefighting fleet is pretty stretched, with the crews flying literally dawn to dusk during the fire season.

Quoting Mig21UMD (Reply 2):
Re' the Zlins, are they being used yet?

As far as I'm informed yes, they're - at least the delivered examples - already down at ZAD and I think some sort of conversion training is going on.



No plane, no gain.
User currently offlineF27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 5423 times:

great news!

I was fortunate to see an AN-124 take of from Zagreb international last wednesday, that must have been the delivery of the choppers right?


User currently offlineTripleDelta From Croatia, joined Jul 2004, 1123 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 5416 times:
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Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 5):
I was fortunate to see an AN-124 take of from Zagreb international last wednesday, that must have been the delivery of the choppers right?

Yes, that was the one. It had arrived Tuesday evening, round 6:30 PM.



No plane, no gain.
User currently offlineWvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 517 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5384 times:

Have they ever decided on their fighter jets yet as to what they are going to purchase?

User currently offlineTripleDelta From Croatia, joined Jul 2004, 1123 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5356 times:
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Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 7):
Have they ever decided on their fighter jets yet as to what they are going to purchase?

Not yet. I think - though I can't vouch for it - that the decision should be made in the first months of '08.



No plane, no gain.
User currently offlineWvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 517 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5318 times:



Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 8):
Not yet. I think - though I can't vouch for it - that the decision should be made in the first months of '08.

ok if you can let us know when your hear.


User currently offlineEBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5312 times:



Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 8):
Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 7):
Have they ever decided on their fighter jets yet as to what they are going to purchase?

Not yet. I think - though I can't vouch for it - that the decision should be made in the first months of '08.

Is there any indication what airplane(s) they're considering?



Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently offlineTripleDelta From Croatia, joined Jul 2004, 1123 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5307 times:
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Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 10):
Is there any indication what airplane(s) they're considering?

The two biggest players are LM with the F-16 and SAAB with the Gripen. Dassault with the Mirage F1 and 2000 was also mentioned in the press, as was MiG with the MiG-35. There's more on the subject in this thread.



No plane, no gain.
User currently offlineTripleDelta From Croatia, joined Jul 2004, 1123 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5239 times:
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The morning paper today ran an interesting two-page article on the ongoing fighter competition, outlining the companies and jets in question. The Ministry of Defense has sent requests for information ("requests for proposals" would I think be a better translation) to LM (F-16), Dassault (Mirage F1), MiG (MiG-35) and SAAB (JAS-39) for 12 airframes to enter service in 2011, when the current fleet of MiG-21s is expected to be fully decommissioned.

The MoD is looking at both new and used aircraft, citing sale conditions, price, delivery dates and performance as determining factors. "Diplomatic" ones are also being considered. The article has also provided a short breakdown of the pros and cons of each aircraft in question:

F-16: the MoD stated that it was looking for 10-year old airframes. Possible sources are Belgium, the Netherlands and the "warehouse of the Minnesota Air Guard". It is also said that LM could offer the jets for free, but under the condition that they be upgraded in-house. However, someone in the MoD had estimated that this option could be almost as expensive as buying new aircraft outright.

Of the aircraft itself, the F-16's advantages for the CroAF are quality, easy crew conversion and commonality, as 40 countries worldwide operate them. The disadvantages are the large-ish required changes in infrastructure, the number of support companies required to provide logistics for it and its inability to operate from contaminated runways (foreign-object-wise) due to its low-slung intake.

Mirage F1: pretty much the same deal as with used F-16s, cheap airframe, expensive upgrade.

The advantage of the aircraft itself is its multifunctionality, but the disadvantage is that it's currently not used by any European country (I guess we can erase Spain and France off the maps of Europe then).

MiG-35: a real nugget, MiG is said to be "vigorously preparing" to offer the -35, almost as much as SAAB with the Gripen. The first hurdle they have to overcome is the "diplomatic" issue, as it is said that choosing a new fighter type will give indication of where Croatia's "allegiance lies". To quote the article: "As an aircraft deal brings other businesses as well, Croatia would in this case firmly 'station' Russia in South-Eastern Europe, something that would not be to the liking of Croatia's Western allies. Vukadinovic [a professor of intl relations here] doesn't advise buying MiGs now that Croatia is entering NATO. 'This hasn't been done by a single member of the Alliance [NATO], so I don't see why should Croatia do it.' ".

Politics aside, plus points go to the -35 for maneuverability and the available ordnance arsenal, while the downsides are high operating costs and dependence on Russian weaponry.

JAS-39: SAAB has been lobbying very hard for the Gripen and has offered 4 corvettes as part of the deal (as mentioned in this thread).

Its biggest advantage is excellent mutlifunctionality, while the disadvantage is that parts are produced in a number of different countries, pointing to potential logistics problems like with the F-16.


The whole contract would be worth around $700.000.000, and the MoD expects the four manufacturers to submit their offers by the end of March 2008. Should the MoD fail to choose a winner, Croatia may be left fighter-less in 2011., the current MiGs running out of life in 2010.

Another interesting bit of news from the same article is that Croatian and Slovenian pilots are supporting an idea for Croatia and Slovenia jointly buying fighter aircraft, in which case the number would be upped to 16 airframes. The main fighter base for both countries would be moved to Cerklje in Slovenia (a stone's throw from the border), ZAG would be demilitarized and another smaller base would be constructed in Eastern Croatia. Apparently, NATO and the EU are supportive of the idea, however, Slovenia doesn't have provisions for fighter aircraft in their budget, and we'd first have to iron out our sometimes fiery relations...

[Edited 2007-12-11 00:56:05]


No plane, no gain.
User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5228 times:

Does anyone know what the price of such an Mi-171 is today? Western models range between 15 and 30Mil$, but I presume a Mi-171 is significantly cheaper?!

User currently offlineTripleDelta From Croatia, joined Jul 2004, 1123 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5224 times:
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Quoting PADSpot (Reply 13):
Does anyone know what the price of such an Mi-171 is today? Western models range between 15 and 30Mil$, but I presume a Mi-171 is significantly cheaper?!

The CroAF deal cost $65 million for 10 examples - with transport, support and training, somewhere around 6.3-6.5 million per unit, though our versions were modified with Western equipment not available in the original package (don't know what equipment that is).



No plane, no gain.
User currently offlineF27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 5180 times:

thanks for the extensive update! I think the Slovenians should first extend the highways all the way to the Croatian border  Wink Would historically also be funny that the Slovenians and Croats would jointly operate an air force again.

I think Gripen would be the best plane. Allthough 12 seams a very low number, even for only QRA operations.


User currently offlineTripleDelta From Croatia, joined Jul 2004, 1123 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 5178 times:
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Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 15):
thanks for the extensive update! I think the Slovenians should first extend the highways all the way to the Croatian border Wink Would historically also be funny that the Slovenians and Croats would jointly operate an air force again.

It's not extending the highways that's the problem - it's finishing the existing ones  biggrin . Driving toward Ljubljana is an alternation of 130 kmh highway and 80 kmh rural road... both with considerable ups and downs.

But it would be interesting to see. The article mentioned that the SloAF budget is currently geared toward transports, without provision for fighter aircraft.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 15):
Allthough 12 seams a very low number, even for only QRA operations.

I'd say the number is more than adequate. 12 fully-functioning aircraft would be about equivalent to the current MiG fleet strength (including three operational two-seat trainers). I personally believe there's no real need for a large QRA fleet - above two or three aircraft at any rate. Light the blower and you can reach any part of the country in about 20-25 minutes if flying from ZAG, cut it down to about 10-15 minutes if flying from both ZAG and ZAD (the current unofficial round-the-country record in a MiG-21 is about 1 hour 35 minutes). Plus, we don't really need to be worried about Backfires and Bears flying around here...



No plane, no gain.
User currently offlineF27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5165 times:



Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 16):
It's not extending the highways that's the problem - it's finishing the existing ones . Driving toward Ljubljana is an alternation of 130 kmh highway and 80 kmh rural road... both with considerable ups and downs.

I know! I was talking about the same thing  Wink

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 16):
I'd say the number is more than adequate. 12 fully-functioning aircraft would be about equivalent to the current MiG fleet strength (including three operational two-seat trainers). I personally believe there's no real need for a large QRA fleet - above two or three aircraft at any rate. Light the blower and you can reach any part of the country in about 20-25 minutes if flying from ZAG, cut it down to about 10-15 minutes if flying from both ZAG and ZAD (the current unofficial round-the-country record in a MiG-21 is about 1 hour 35 minutes). Plus, we don't really need to be worried about Backfires and Bears flying around here...

In other topics the number of jets to have 2 planes on QRA seamed to be around 20? Does this mean there will be only one on QRA?


User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5162 times:



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 15):
I think the Slovenians should first extend the highways all the way to the Croatian border Wink

Please not!!!! I still remember that rural road vividly. Been to Crikvenica with the girlfriend in 2004 and still remember the landscape at that road. The GF dubbed it "hobbit land" because the landscaped look as if it was scaled down by half. Small roads, small hills, small forests, small houses the narrow road gently curling through the landscape ... very "cute".  Smile  cheerful 

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 14):
The CroAF deal cost $65 million for 10 examples - with transport, support and training, somewhere around 6.3-6.5 million per unit, though our versions were modified with Western equipment not available in the original package (don't know what equipment that is).

My estimate was 5Mil$. So not a bad guess.


User currently offlineTripleDelta From Croatia, joined Jul 2004, 1123 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 5154 times:
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Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 17):
In other topics the number of jets to have 2 planes on QRA seamed to be around 20? Does this mean there will be only one on QRA?

I must admit that personally I do know. Given that the only foreseeable situation down here requiring fighter interception is a non-responsive airliner - which would probably be out of the country by the time something gets airborne to intercept it  biggrin  - one would probably do it, if the AF keeps any A/C on QRA at all...

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 18):
Small roads, small hills, small forests, small houses the narrow road gently curling through the landscape ... very "cute".

It's a small country...  duck 

BTW, stay tuned for some Mi-171 pics tomorrow afternoon. Got press access for the official ceremony  bouncy 



No plane, no gain.
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4851 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5142 times:

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 12):
The Ministry of Defense has sent requests for information ("requests for proposals" would I think be a better translation) to LM (F-16), Dassault (Mirage F1), MiG (MiG-35) and SAAB (JAS-39) for 12 airframes to enter service in 2011, when the current fleet of MiG-21s is expected to be fully decommissioned.

If the MoD had already gone through the exploratory phase of stating its general requirements - asking the manufacturers what they could offer for consideration and was responded to and do not need additional information, then an RFP stipulating a more detailed criteria and narrowing the candidates to those most closely meeting the first requirements, would indeed be issued next.

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 12):
JAS-39: SAAB has been lobbying very hard for the Gripen and has offered 4 corvettes as part of the deal (as mentioned in this thread).

Its biggest advantage is excellent mutlifunctionality, while the disadvantage is that parts are produced in a number of different countries, pointing to potential logistics problems like with the F-16.

I read where the MoD is looking at new and used aircraft, but have the Air Force stated whether the Gripens to be proposed would preferably be new-builds, SweAF samples upgraded to C/D standard, or excess, reconditioned A/B models?

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 12):
The whole contract would be worth around $700.000.000, and the MoD expects the four manufacturers to submit their offers by the end of March 2008. Should the MoD fail to choose a winner, Croatia may be left fighter-less in 2011., the current MiGs running out of life in 2010.

If the selection and award processes are anywhere as condensed as the RFP period, this could be the most expeditious fighter acquisition yet, comparatively speaking.

[Edited 2007-12-11 15:10:50]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineMig21UMD From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 269 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5122 times:

Interesting times....

I still remember when Croatia almost became an F16 operator in the late 1990's but the US state department did not let Croatia have them.

I am very surprised that the F1 is being considered, I'm sure it is a great aircraft but can it be compared with a modern F16 or Gripen?

TripleDelta,

Looking forward to the Photo's...... Some cockpit and armaments (if it is on show) shots would be great.



Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you long to return
User currently offlineTripleDelta From Croatia, joined Jul 2004, 1123 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5106 times:
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Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 20):
If the MoD had already gone through the exploratory phase of stating its general requirements - asking the manufacturers what they could offer for consideration and was responded to and do not need additional information, then an RFP stipulating a more detailed criteria and narrowing the candidates to those most closely meeting the first requirements, would indeed be issued next.

The article phrasing was a bit vague, but I think it may be the former. The MoD has sent requirements for general information such as prices, delivery dates, performance and so on.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 20):
I read where the MoD is looking at new and used aircraft, but have the Air Force stated whether the Gripens to be proposed would preferably be new-builds, SweAF samples upgraded to C/D standard, or excess, reconditioned A/B models?

The article did not mention used Gripens, and I personally don't remember reading about that option at all. The only second-hand aircraft deals mentioned were for the Mirages (previously 2000 and F1, now just F1) and the F-16.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 20):
If the selection and award processes are anywhere as condensed as the RFP period, this could be the most expeditious fighter acquisition yet, comparatively speaking.

The new aircraft are expected to enter service in 2011., so with a training period of two years prior (from the article), it could indeed be fast. You get the feeling that time is not really on the MoD's side now, since when the MiG-21s run out of life, game over. Some or other politician will probably push for them being used a year longer to eek out the last bits of life from them, but this probably won't go down well with the pilots...

Quoting Mig21UMD (Reply 21):
I still remember when Croatia almost became an F16 operator in the late 1990's but the US state department did not let Croatia have them.

On a funnier note, back in the day a politician or party was boldly claiming that Croatia is going to buy much more advanced hardware than that - F-22s no less  biggrin . If I remember correctly - was a kid still at the time - the prototype hadn't even got off the ground yet...

Quoting Mig21UMD (Reply 21):
I am very surprised that the F1 is being considered, I'm sure it is a great aircraft but can it be compared with a modern F16 or Gripen?

I was also surprised to see Mirages of any type in the running. Don't get me wrong, I love them, especially the 2000, but they didn't strike me as aircraft ideally suited for Croatia. The 2000 is a bit of a hot-ship and doesn't really have that much load-carrying capability and multifunctionality, something important in an airforce whose front-line strength is a tad over 10 aircraft. The F1 looks like a good choice when you think about it, it can haul a lot of stuff and can be used for a variety of roles - like the F-16 - but is a comparatively rare aircraft, with only two operators in Europe and a handful more in the world. And it's an old design, like the F-16, but without the latter's upgrade programs and "customization options". But it's durable and can operate from contaminated runways and in rough environments, which may have influenced the MoD decision to include them in the competition.

Quoting Mig21UMD (Reply 21):
Looking forward to the Photo's...... Some cockpit and armaments (if it is on show) shots would be great.

Judging by a recent video report from the Ulan-Ude factory, the cockpit won't be anything out-of-this world, a modernized analogue cockpit of the old Mi-8, fitted with a separate weather radar screen bolted onto the console, GPS and civil transponder. No EFIS, much to our regret.

The boom-booms will probably be fitted, but are limited to unguided rocket packs.



No plane, no gain.
User currently offlineMig21UMD From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 269 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5086 times:



Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 22):
Judging by a recent video report from the Ulan-Ude factory, the cockpit won't be anything out-of-this world, a modernized analogue cockpit of the old Mi-8, fitted with a separate weather radar screen bolted onto the console, GPS and civil transponder. No EFIS, much to our regret.

Surprised again, I thought the Mi-171s had an EFIS cockpit.

BTW France and Spain were mentioned before as the only F1 operators in Europe, what about Greece are have there aircraft been retired?



Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you long to return
User currently offlineMig21UMD From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 269 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5084 times:

On another note, December issue of Airforce Monthly has an article about Noble Midas 07 (NATO exercise held in Croatian in October) It mentions that Croatian Mig21s were involved in ' Dissimilar Air Combat Training' against NATO F16Cs, with dogfights taking place above 15000ft. Does anyone have any more info regarding this?

Would be interesting to find out if The Croatian Migs managed some simulated 'kills'



Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you long to return
25 Post contains images TripleDelta : Some do, depends on the equipment package ordered. Going through the DB with the same idea, I saw that they're all retired now. MiG-21bis vs F-16C. H
26 9A-CRO : photos in the queue, waiting for screeners
27 Post contains images F27Friendship : come on! if you want to see farmland, go to Bavaria, I just want to get to the beautiful coast as soon as possible!
28 N74JW : If I were Croatia, I would go with the Gripen. Could there be a market here for retired Swedish AJS-37s? Probably not, but I would love to see the Vig
29 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : SAAB are unwilling to propose 12 used JAS 39A/Bs for just $700M? In an "as is" condition, $58M+ per frame including weapons, ancilliaries, training a
30 Post contains links and images TripleDelta : The upper echelons - some of which still live in socialist times - would probably be dazzled and awed by something new and shiny, without considering
31 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : Coalition tankers would likely fill that void during joint operations. NATO inter-operability and interest suggest that LockMart might aggresively pr
32 TripleDelta : News reports in the press indicate that the two most vigorous competitors are SAAB and MiG. An article from a while ago mentioned that LM is actually
33 F27Friendship : Thanks for the great pics of those choppers! I am surprised by the rocket pods though! I thought they would be used solely for transport and SAR? Can
34 TripleDelta : Transport and SAR will be the primary roles, but I guess the AF also wants to fill the void left by the Mi-24 fleet when it was retired several years
35 F27Friendship : indeed never a bad idea to keep options open. I think the CroAF is well under way in becoming a modern, small, but agile and capable force.
36 Post contains links and images Mig21UMD : First ill like to say Merry Christmas and happy new year to all. Since the F1 was mentioned as a possible mig21 replacement, I started to think about
37 F27Friendship : the'd be much better off keeping the MiG-21's . As I recall the A4 is a subsonic attack airplane. They need a supersonic fighter, that is at least ab
38 Mig21UMD : I never thought of the A4 as a subsonic aircraft. Looks like it could be supersonic. Anyway, you are correct it is a subsonic aircraft. Still a nice m
39 N74JW : It would be nice if Croatia could acquire some Jas-39 Gripens, perhaps from existing Swedish stocks. If not that, maybe some Mirage 2000s from France.
40 Post contains links TripleDelta : Another bit of unofficial news: the Croatian DoD has decided to include Eurofighter in the fighter competition as the 5th contender. However, with a t
41 F27Friendship : that's a good one!
42 PADSpot : You won't get it for that money. System price is more like 150Mil$ or about 105Mil€.
43 Post contains images TripleDelta : Pardon, it was 80-100 million Euros, must have put dollars out of habit... my mistake [Edited 2008-01-16 11:25:40]
44 F27Friendship : I'm quite certain though, szu Germans will be making a sweet offer with little used Tranche 1 airframes, currently with the Luftwaffe, and take more
45 Post contains links and images TripleDelta : Not to needlessly open another thread, I'll just post some fighter competition news here instead. The morning newspaper (link in Croatian) states that
46 Mig21UMD : Seems like the Russian are desperate to get back into the arms market. Will the Russian's change there mind if Croatia recognises Kosovo? I have never
47 TripleDelta : The M and M2 versions are altogether far more capable than the stock MiG-29A. Better avionics, higher performance and - most importantly - bigger fue
48 Post contains images SAS A340 : Whats up with the mi-171,s? are they new ones? looks like they been stored in Russia for 20 years ore so....Everything feels so "second hand"....And M
49 TripleDelta : The Mi-171s are brand new. Four of 10 were delivered so far, while the remaining six are in various stages of being bolted together at the Ulan-Ude A
50 A350 : Why not do an upgrade / lifetime extension program with the Mig-21s as Romania did instead of buying new aircraft? I don't exactly understand the beni
51 F27Friendship : I believe these frames were already given an update once. Furthermore, the operational costs are tremendous. At one point they would have to moderniz
52 TripleDelta : Correct. A number of MiGs had already been overhauled - not upgraded to Lancer standard - some years back (5 or 6) and fitted with some new instrumen
53 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : It's quite puzzling how LockMart could be a favorite when, as you said, they were "losing interest"? Does it mean they have regained the upperhand du
54 TripleDelta : It's what the press reports say. Maybe they still are losing interest, but the CroAF still considers them an option to contend with - since it is the
55 TripleDelta : Again some news, this time some details of SAAB's offer have come out to light. The aircraft offered would be C/D versions ("not A/B as previously spe
56 TripleDelta : Apparently, if Cro newspapers are anything to go by, we'll have to wait a bit for the winner of the fighter competition. The five manufacturers invite
57 Mig21UMD : The EADS entry is interesting indeed. I wonder if Dassault may now offer the Rafale instead of the F1. I also wonder how Serbia may react to Croatia u
58 TripleDelta : Even if Dassault wanted to offer the Rafale, it's too late now, since - if the news are correct - the submission deadline for initial offers has ende
59 Post contains links and images TripleDelta : I've just been thinking about this. I know that it's 99% sure that whatever we buy will be painted in that uninspiring 'eurogrey', but imagine an EF-
60 F27Friendship : let's make it a photoshop contest!
61 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : They probably have a limited production capacity, given that the campaigns produced no wins (so far). Too bad the Mirage 2000 line closed last year -
62 Post contains images TripleDelta : Okay, the official list of contenders is out (which shows how much the media knows): France: Mirage F1 modernised by Astrac France: Mirage 2000-5 (new
63 Post contains images F27Friendship : well, if this is your ticket to JSF
64 TripleDelta : Which would probably be early beat up versions, overpriced to compensate for the cheap sale of the F-16s - just like the F-16s themselves. But who kn
65 Post contains images DEVILFISH : (Dis)Information is usually leaked to the media to mislead/confuse rival bidders. Except for the wild card Typhoon, we can now see a very balanced fi
66 TripleDelta : Interesting, never looked at it that way - all manufacturers offering both new and old jets, competitive against their counterparts. It really appear
67 F27Friendship : I thought that production line was closed down?
68 Post contains images DEVILFISH : Actually, I was intending to write "potent attack package" but forgot to include the middle word. Note the conformal fuel tank and targeting pod in t
69 TripleDelta : Good question. From the available information, I myself am under the impression that the CroAF is currently geared toward operations that the F-16I w
70 Post contains links DEVILFISH : This Flightglobal report has a photo of the MiG weapons fit, and details the FMV's Gripen proposal..... http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ls-gri
71 Post contains images TripleDelta : Here are some more pictures, from the same AF Open Day: I'm not very knowledgeable on Soviet missiles, but I think those are AA-8s. Whatever it has,
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