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F35 Program In Trouble?  
User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3409 posts, RR: 4
Posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4640 times:

http://www.dailytech.com/Lockheed%20...Remains%20Grounded/article9924.htm

"Costs for the program have ballooned from $30 billion USD in 2002 to $40 billion USD today. And according to the Air Force, a single F-35 will cost $100 million USD when production is comfortably underway in 2013 -- this compares to $50 million USD for a single F-16 or $132 million USD for a single F-22 Raptor."

===================================================================

So the cost per frame is nearly that of the F22 and we are not even to production yet?

Engine, gearbox, and electronics issues are still stopping the program?

What next?


I think its time to toss the F35 in the stupid idea pile and and design a rational fighter that doesn't try to do everything for everyone everywhere in one single useless package.

66 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4627 times:

I see Super Hornets in the future for the USMC!

User currently offlineOroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 913 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4532 times:

In all fairness to Lockmart, the initial US DOD purchase was for 2852 airframes of various models, in the time since, that has been decreased by over 400 airframes, that is undoubtly going to increase price. Also, the F-22 and F-35 are highly digital, and the F-35 is highly electric. Setbacks are pretty much unavoidable when working at the bleeding edge of technology.

In the comming years, more countries will have high end Russian fighters, or even Eurofighters. Some current allies are not overly stable and it is not unfathomable for a Iran/Iraq situation to happen again somewhere else. Do you want F-16s vs Typhoons or F-15s vs SU-37s? Face it, a good pilot in a older aircraft is limited in what he can do. These days, with potential opponets having more and more advanced weaponry (they did have 30+ years to work on it), you dont really want something that is 'good enough'. You should not go into war on even ground, you want to have a major advantage. Buying a warmed over F-16 or F-15 is not a major advantage, might as well go get a few Mig-35s and save a few bucks.

If the F-35 is scrapped, there goes your $40 billion, nothing gained from it, and it will be ohhh, another 7-8 years to get to this point in a new program, then 5 years to get into full production, so you should have a new fighter by around 2021.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8532 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4527 times:

I have a standing offer to produce them for only $25 billion. PM me for my cell phone number if anybody is interested.

Quoting Oroka (Reply 2):
Setbacks are pretty much unavoidable when working at the bleeding edge of technology.

Project management is proposing something that can be done, and doing it on time.

If you can't do that, that means you are an incompetent project manager.

If you fail on purpose, that means you are a thief.

The defense contractors are mostly thieves. LM in particular is looking very bad from a management perspective, lately. Not unprofitable, but not entirely safe from criminal charges, either. Don't forget Darleen Druyun. Stealing money from the govt works 99 times out of 100, but on the 100th try, you go to jail. I wonder if LM management's turn is coming up.

We clearly do need new fighters, but without decent project management, the process will be a comedy of overspending and delays. There are ways to design new jets on time and on budget...


User currently offlineWvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 517 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4496 times:

Every aircraft program experiences delays and cost overruns, its the nature of the beast. When your dealing with such a complex aircraft such as the F-35 and others along its line, there will be delays and overuns. I doubt the F-35 will be cancelled there is entirely too much money at stake. Even the Russians who tend to build on more rugged and lower technology have had their share of problems even with a flankers they lost a few in the development stage. But they went on and built a good fighter. The F-35 will have its problems but it wont be cancelled.

Quoting Oroka (Reply 2):
In the comming years, more countries will have high end Russian fighters, or even Eurofighters. Some current allies are not overly stable and it is not unfathomable for a Iran/Iraq situation to happen again somewhere else. Do you want F-16s vs Typhoons or F-15s vs SU-37s? Face it, a good pilot in a older aircraft is limited in what he can do. These days, with potential opponets having more and more advanced weaponry (they did have 30+ years to work on it), you dont really want something that is 'good enough'. You should not go into war on even ground, you want to have a major advantage. Buying a warmed over F-16 or F-15 is not a major advantage, might as well go get a few Mig-35s and save a few bucks.

Its very doubtfull you will ever see an F-16 facing a Typhoon or SU-37. The US already has the F-22 in production and that would be the aircraft that they would put up against the Typhoons and the SU-37 isnt even an issue "its not in Development". The US will probably never buy any Russian aircraft due to the fact they have the knowledge and the money to develope their own. Not to mention the fact the newer F-15's such as the F-15K and the F-15SG are more than a match for any current Flanker in development and the aircraft alone isnt the only deciding factor, you have training and ground control systems and AWAC's, where as most of the countries purchasing these expensive and high tech Russian fighters just dont have the money to do that. There are alot of factors the F-35 running behind schedule will not effect any of them. The only factor I can see from the F-35 is foreign sales, other countries involved in the program may decide to purchase other fighters instead of waiting such as the MIG-35,SU-30 or SU-35 or its western counter parts such as the Grippen,Typhoon,Rafale and F-18 Superhornet.

[Edited 2007-12-06 23:46:44]

User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4437 times:

Thread title: F35 Program In Trouble?

Cost: yes
Development: yes
Timetable for EIS and functionality inc weapons systems: yes

Just another ambitious program that is failing to pan out as planned.


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4415 times:

DID had a story on Dec 3, 2007 about "serious design issues" with the F-35. Here's the link.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...-by-serious-design-problems-04311/

This report is, frankly, grim.

Lockheed-Martin better get a handle on this program or it is going to have a huge bullseye painted on it, in the U.S. as well as Europe.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineUlfinator From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 315 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 4354 times:



Quoting Oroka (Reply 2):
In all fairness to Lockmart, the initial US DOD purchase was for 2852 airframes of various models, in the time since, that has been decreased by over 400 airframes, that is undoubtedly going to increase price.

I would have to agree. After working in the US defense contracting sector for some time now I have seen how the government tends to screw with programs on their own. Whether it is changing the number of frames or changing the functionality requirements and timing of delivery, what they don't seem to get it the introduce a lot of cost themselves because of the contract rework process that then has to occur.


User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4327 posts, RR: 28
Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4331 times:



Quoting XT6Wagon (Thread starter):
I think its time to toss the F35 in the stupid idea pile and and design a rational fighter that doesn't try to do everything for everyone everywhere in one single useless package.

 checkmark  Very well put. Unfortunately, there are too many hands in the cookie jar at this point and the program will probably move through to fruition. On the bright side, I don't think there's ever been a military project of substantial size that's not run into these problems and despite those problems some stellar aircraft have been produced. The problem here is, IMHO, the F-35 is not that great of an aircraft considering its cost (both the budgeted cost as well as the revised).

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 1):
I see Super Hornets in the future for the USMC!

I do, too, but what about the Marines' insistance of also having an attack jet that has VTOL capabilities?



My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
User currently offlineEBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4329 times:



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 8):
I do, too, but what about the Marines' insistance of also having an attack jet that has VTOL capabilities?

What's the possibility of an upgraded Harrier in the future or a brand new (for attack missions only) VTOL attack aircraft?
Wouldn't need to be supersonic; wouldn't need air-to-air capability except as a minor secondar mission. Is this realistic?



Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4300 times:



Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 9):
What's the possibility of an upgraded Harrier in the future or a brand new (for attack missions only) VTOL attack aircraft?

I think the people to ask would be the people who used to make the AV8-B.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 6):
DID had a story on Dec 3, 2007 about "serious design issues" with the F-35.

This report is, frankly, grim.

I can see countries that had reservations about the JSF looking with renewed interest at alternatives. If I were in Eurofighter's shoes, I would go all out to win a customer able to place a large enough order to warrant an extra assembly line - Japan, Turkey, India could all qualify. An extra line might make it easier to deliver within good time to any new customers who need a higher degree of certainty than the F-35 offers with regard to price, weapons capability and in service date.

I appreciate that an expensive supplier ramp up would also be necessary but with the F-35 looking less and less attractive to buy, there might be buyers for another 100-300 Typhoons if they could be made available in good time (Turkey, Greece, Norway, India, Japan come to mind).


User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4327 posts, RR: 28
Reply 11, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 4268 times:



Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 9):
What's the possibility of an upgraded Harrier in the future or a brand new (for attack missions only) VTOL attack aircraft?

I think the production line for the AV-8 was shut down a few years back so it wouldn't be cost effective to fire it up again. A new VTOL attack jet is what the F-35 was supposed to provide the Marines. If that program were to be cancelled, something tells me the AV-8B will become the B-52s and NW DC-9s of the Marine Corps.



My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 4260 times:



Quoting Art (Reply 10):
If I were in Eurofighter's shoes, I would go all out to win a customer able to place a large enough order to warrant an extra assembly line - Japan, Turkey, India could all qualify.

Well, yes, but....
Northrop Grumman Authorizes International Suppliers to Begin Work on First Phase of F-35 Low Rate Initial Production

Quote:
EL SEGUNDO, Calif. --- Northrop Grumman Corporation has authorized Terma, Lystrup, Denmark and Turkish Aerospace Industries, Inc. (TAI), Ankara, Turkey to begin fabricating subassemblies for the first two F-35 Lightning II production aircraft.

The awards, which expand the international membership of Northrop Grumman's F-35 supplier team, represent the first F-35 contracts for Terma and TAI under long-term agreements signed with the company in 2005.

The subassemblies to be produced -- composite components and aircraft access doors -- will be used in the F-35 center fuselage, a major section of the aircraft being produced by Northrop Grumman as a principal and founding member of the Lockheed Martin-led F-35 global industry team.

India perhaps? I doubt if Japan or Turkey would go this route at this point unless the program were terminated or can't meet performance goals.

Much more to come of this, I'm sure.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineMCIGuy From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1936 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4206 times:



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 6):
DID had a story on Dec 3, 2007 about "serious design issues" with the F-35. Here's the link.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...-by-serious-design-problems-04311/

This report is, frankly, grim.



Quote:
Another fact was discovered via a military employee of one of the European air forces, who works within the JSF project team, and is a liaison person for several air forces. He says that flying in 2012 with the JSF may be safe and the JSF can be used as a plane to fly around. But, the several software modules for weapons system integration will not be ready. Ground attack capability is the priority, so early-build F-35s will primarily be "bomb trucks" until the additional software modules can be tested and loaded. Air superiority capabilities will be restricted, and completed only after 2015. This means that full multi-role capability is possible by 2016 at the earliest, if and only if no major problems occur in development and testing of the weapon systems software.

So, will there be JSFs on European airbases without complete air superiority capability in 2016? A sobering thought in the light of the intensifying scrambling from UK and Norway since Russian TU-95 Bears have began entering air space near Norway again in 2006.

I'm no engineer, but I'm not sure I buy this part. What could be the problem? There aren't any new revolutionary weapons systems slated for F-35 (unless they go ahead with the tactical laser, which probably wouldn't be available for export anyway). Even the AIM-9X is operational now. Even the most advanced Slammers and Sidewnders will be tried and true by then. I guess they could be talking about the FCR, but they already have enough experience with sensor fusion with the F-22. The HMD isn't even that new of a concept, so that shouldn't be an issue either. I just can't imagine why it's supposed to be such a "lame duck" in early service.



Airliners.net Moderator Team
User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4207 times:



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 12):
I doubt if Japan or Turkey would go this route at this point unless the program were terminated or can't meet performance goals.

Well, IIRC the Turkish government is interested in acquiring some Typhoons (although the military would prefer to only acquire the F-35). I think that one reason for this interest is the cost uncertainty of the F-35. Would they buy enough Typoons to justify an assembly line if they decided to buy some? I don't know.

TOKYO, Oct 17 (Reuters) - Japan is considering buying Eurofighter Typhoons to replace part of its ageing air force fleet, Defence Minister Shigeru Ishiba said in an interview on Wednesday.

Tokyo had shown interest in buying the Lockheed-Martin (LMT.N: Quote, Profile , Research) F-22 Raptor, which boasts stealth capabilities far superior to those of any other aircraft available, but the U.S. government is reluctant to allow the technology to be exported, even to a close ally such as Japan.

Japan has also expressed an interest in the Eurofighter, as reported above.


User currently offlineOroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 913 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4182 times:



Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 4):
and the SU-37 isnt even an issue "its not in Development".

Sorry, I was thinking SU-35.

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 4):
Its very doubtfull you will ever see an F-16 facing a Typhoon or SU-37.

Maybe not a USAF aircraft, but what is the first reaction to a looming crisis? Send in a carrier group or two, and last time I checked the F/A-18E/F is good, but not really that good, not a big advantage. Great for running bomb loads, but put it up against say a J-10, it will probably be because of pilot skill, not from a big technology advantage. Ideally, the F-22s will wipe up the high threat targets out there leaving the F-35 to do the dirty work. Why did the Iraqi air force stay on the ground? They knew they were dead if they challenged the US and her allies. If a country wants to strike at a US force, they are not going to wait for the USAF to move its best assets into the theatre.

Saudi Arabia are after 24 Typhoons, Thailand is looking at Griphens, F-16s, and various Russian aircraft. Saudi Arabia has opposition to the Royal leadership, Thailand just had coup d'état last year. Country leadership can quickly change... remember Iran? For a good while their F-14s were fully armed (nearly), and were a viable force. It wouldn't take much for a nut freshly in control of a country to send 24 Typhoons at anything American in the region. A carrier group is a formidable weapon system, but being attacked by 24 Typhoons at once, a few shots will get through. I dont think the US wants its own little Falklands.


User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4181 times:



Quoting Art (Reply 14):
I think that one reason for this interest is the cost uncertainty of the F-35. Would they buy enough Typoons to justify an assembly line if they decided to buy some? I don't know.

I think the military has the more honest motives here. On the side of the Turkish government I assume politcal objectives.
I think they should get Block 60s or F-15"T"s. Less money, less time, less pain.

And I also don't think they will get an assembly line. Turkey belongs to the German EF sales area and I remember the fuss being made last time when they asked for an assembly line for rifle bullets (it was like they had asked for a nuke). It took them eight years to get an export clearance for second hand Leopard 2 tanks. The last thing that they will get is an export clearance is an EF assembly line (well at least not before 2030 or so ...).


User currently offlineGsosbee From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4145 times:

Airborne again

http://startelegram.typepad.com/sky_talk/2007/12/up-in-the-air-a.html


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4141 times:



Quoting Oroka (Reply 15):
Saudi Arabia are after 24 Typhoons,

Actually, it's 72, and they firmed up the deal this week.

Quoting Art (Reply 14):
Japan has also expressed an interest in the Eurofighter, as reported above.

I was aware of the media report. Japan is said to really want the F-22, but the U.S. (so far) refuses to export it. I'd have to ask, how bad they want it? Bad enough to buy it off the shelf? I can not see the U.S. agreeing to a line there, although I could see us eventually approving the sale to Japan, Australia, and Singapore (as discussed on many other threads). Could they opt for the Typhoon? Sure, but I suspect any decision on this is years away; the dance has just begun.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4094 times:



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 8):
I do, too, but what about the Marines' insistance of also having an attack jet that has VTOL capabilities?

I'm sort of irritated that the Corps hasn't solved this issue yet with the USN and yet they are still going forth with their plan for the time being. It's all but readily obvious that for the USMC to operated F-35B's from CVN's of which the F-35C's will be optimized for will be a reduction in capabilities for a larger price. While I'm all for the F-35B to replace the Corps' AV-8B+'s that's it - but the Corps needs to replace existing Hornets with Super Hornets and Growlers just like the USN is doing. Let's face it - the JSF was designed and selected around the STOVL F-35B variant and that just baffles me how the USAF and USN agreed to buy into that. Given the cost overruns in the V-22 and H-1 upgrade prograns combined with the need to still purchase the V-22's as well as begin to R&D the CH-53K, the Corps needs to pursue readily available alternatives such as the Super Hornet whenver they can.

If the Super Hornet is good enough for the USN to protect all of their carriers, I'm more than confident that F/A-18F and EA-18G's would serve the Corps admirably just as well and do so for a lot less cost than F-35B's and operating EA-6B's on their own after the USN retires their fleet for 10+ years (and at 4 crew-members, too!) With the F/A-18F's in Block II and even III config's they'd provide for the Corps the most economical CAS aircraft aircraft available as well as the most potent they have ever fielded: the Corps doesn't need an all STOVL (note that they don't even claim VSTOL like what the Harrier claims.)

Quoting Oroka (Reply 15):
I checked the F/A-18E/F is good, but not really that good, not a big advantage.

What makes the Super Hornet the powerful aircraft that it is is it's electronics and weapons - with AESA radar's most aerial engagments will be conducted well over the horizon with AMRAAM's where it's AESA radar's will give it a significant advantage over anything out of Russia or China at the moment. Throw in JHMCS and AIM-9X and the days of 1v1 WVR are just no longer quite the same as the days of the Red Baron or Erich Hartmann are over as we used to know it.


User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4834 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4077 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 12):

India perhaps?

I think LockMart's JSF incentive for the IAF was contingent on the F-16 winning India's MMRCA competition. And there's this besides.....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...yX8AAAEAAA4pXeAAAAAQ&modele=jdc_34

Transfer of High Technology Weaponry by the United States
(Source: Indian Ministry of Defence; issued Dec. 6, 2007)

Quote:
"The Ministry of Defence has received no offer from the United States for transfer of high technology weaponry including its 5th-generation Joint Strike Fighter F-35."

Also, the just agreed Indo-Russian cooperation on the PAK-PA would cast doubt on an IAF acquisition of the F-35 - unless that joint venture runs into big costs, development and milestone problems too.

Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 17):
Airborne again

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...in-flies-f-35-jsf-and-catbird.html

[Edited 2007-12-07 18:30:49]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineOroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 913 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4060 times:



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 19):
What makes the Super Hornet the powerful aircraft that it is is it's electronics and weapons - with AESA radar's most aerial engagments will be conducted well over the horizon with AMRAAM's where it's AESA radar's will give it a significant advantage over anything out of Russia or China at the moment. Throw in JHMCS and AIM-9X and the days of 1v1 WVR are just no longer quite the same as the days of the Red Baron or Erich Hartmann are over as we used to know it.

Didn't they make a similar mistake with the F-4, assuming everything would be missile engagements and just skipped the guns? The Rhino has guns, but is does not have a clear advantage over Russian and Chinese metal with close in combat. You assume that an opponent will fly in clear and straight, willy nilly in the clear blue. The US will win every time if it comes down to radar, that is why an opponents tactics will avoid being pegged by radar, and it will be in a way you would never expect.

Combat changes, that was learned in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq... the same ol bag of tricks wont work forever. Big ass radar was initially designed with Soviet aircraft in mind, that line of tactics will become obsolete. Handy sure, but not a game winner.


User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4032 times:



Quoting Oroka (Reply 21):
Combat changes, that was learned in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq... the same ol bag of tricks wont work forever. Big ass radar was initially designed with Soviet aircraft in mind, that line of tactics will become obsolete. Handy sure, but not a game winner.

I guess I'm just assuming that we take into account our AWACS and our entire INTEL inventory from satelittes to AEGIS, combined with advents other than just radar like IRST as well; so other than that if I'm a two or four ship F/A-18F group flying MIDS L16 with everyone's eyes and ears on, I'm not seeing as to where we may be at a disadvantge - remember, air show wonder-maneuvers today have little to do with actual combat effectiveness: AMRAAM+ and/or AIM-9X don't discriminate.


http://www.boeing.com/news/feature/p.../assets/pas_2007fa-18_final-r1.pdf


User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4327 posts, RR: 28
Reply 23, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4022 times:



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 19):
It's all but readily obvious that for the USMC to operated F-35B's from CVN's of which the F-35C's will be optimized for will be a reduction in capabilities for a larger price.

Ah, but don't forget the Corps likes to have its own carriers -- amphibious assault ships -- that the AV-8B and future F-35B can operate from. That way they aren't so dependent on the Navy's capital ships for deployment. Unless you've got S/VTOL capabilities, you can't fly a fixed wing off of an assault ship.

But I'm not arguing your points. I think they need to reconsider their requirements/strategy.



My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
User currently offlineF27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3989 times:



Quoting PADSpot (Reply 16):
The last thing that they will get is an export clearance is an EF assembly line (well at least not before 2030 or so ...).

they are building their own F-16's, only natural that they would want to build their own EF's


25 Par13del : As it relates to the USMC and the USN, what exactly does the Navy have besides the F-18? All their eggs are in one basket, the F-35 is not going to be
26 Post contains images PADSpot : It was very early in my life that mum explained me the difference between "wanting to have" and "get".
27 F27Friendship : I get your point, but I see no possible chance for Turkey buying EF if they don't get the assembly line. As simple as that.
28 AirRyan : That's why I only would advocate the F-35B to replace their Harriers - the notion that they are going to build new LHA's minus the well deck so they
29 Par13del : Well AirRyan let's see, I just completed watching the Pacific war on Discovery Channel last week and they had a whole show on about the Great Marianas
30 Wvsuperhornet : The J-10 is not that technologically advanced compared to an F-18 E/F the J-10 is maybe at best equal to a block 50 F-16. Not saying it wont be somed
31 F27Friendship : on what do you base all this?
32 GDB : So a brand new type, a lot of new technology, hits problems, even ones that should have been foreseen. But, imagine if we were writing in the early 70
33 Post contains images PADSpot : on his screenname
34 Oroka : And that is the issue, 'not right now'. The F-35 gets scrapped, it will be upgraded J-10s vs upgraded F/A-18s. China plans on building 4 J-10s for ev
35 Checksixx : Doesn't look like the F-35 is going anywhere...it's flying again.
36 F27Friendship : The only plane the US have at the moment that is superior to the latest Flankers is the F-22.
37 Wvsuperhornet : ask anyone who fly's it. Exactly how many F-35's do you think we will have? China will still have more aircraft than us no matter what we build its j
38 F27Friendship : this is not how we perform discussions on this forum as I understand it. Secondly, I don't know any pilots who fly the superbug. If your going to mak
39 XT6Wagon : It boils down to a simple point. If you want to replace the harrier, replace the harrier. It seems quite amazingly stupid to use a harrier to replace
40 Checksixx : No, actually they are not doing that. Your thinking would only apply to the USMC. You must not know any maintainers. You have to plan ahead. I can't
41 Flighty : Clearly nobody has done that to Lockheed in a very long time. They simply forgot how to build jets, or else, they lied about what they can build. One
42 Wvsuperhornet : I wasn't trying to be smart if you happen to venture to an airshow and talk to the pilots they love it. Also articles I have seen if magazines and ot
43 Post contains links DEVILFISH : Update: Lockheed-Martin prepares first STOVL F-35B for roll-out..... http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-f-35b-stovl-jsf-for-roll-out.html Quote:
44 Cancidas : anybody think that the plans and original timetables were too ambitious to begin with?
45 F27Friendship : ofcourse you are entitled to your opinion, but what you are claiming contests for example the aerodynamics of the machine. It is an attack aircraft i
46 USAF336TFS : They probably were, in hindsight, but anyone who thinks the F-35 is going to be cancelled is in for a rude awaking. The program is suffering much the
47 EBJ1248650 : Italy and Spain would be prime candidates to buy this one, you think?
48 USAF336TFS : Oh yes. I think all the NATO member countries are potential customers.
49 F27Friendship : that would also be the RAF model If the're going to replace their carrier based harriers for sure. I imagine Italy will get a bunch of A models as we
50 USAF336TFS : My bad... Thanks. But.. .. The only customer for the A model is the U.S. Air Force, at least at this point of the program's life. For smaller air for
51 F27Friendship : this is not what I meant: the Netherlands will get the A model, as well as Norway, Denmark, Canada, Australia and Turkey. The B-model is only practic
52 USAF336TFS : Or have a need to take off and land on unimproved or non-existant airstrips as the RAF does with their Harriers.
53 F27Friendship : indeed, but I think most partners will get the A model. Maybe UK will get the C model in the future, as their next carriers will be quite big
54 AirRyan : But that is what attack helo's are for - the STOVL penalites associated with the F-35B relative to it's A and C counterparts are just not woth the pr
55 F27Friendship : an attack helicopter is not a supersonic weaponsplatform now is it.
56 AirRyan : but they do the same damned thing, now don't they? STOVL is just a poor-mans fighter jet (yet ironically it costs more to procure and operate): half-
57 F27Friendship : you obviously don't know what you are talking about. The F-35B is able to operate from small unimproved locations, providing a platform to counter en
58 EBJ1248650 : How is this so? STOVL isn't designed as a poor man's fighter. Harrier can cruise with a typical fighter, can't it? I'm not talking about the most mod
59 EBJ1248650 : What are the penalties (significant ones) that take away from the F-35B?
60 Wvsuperhornet : Depends on which model of F-16 your talking about block 52 or higher maybe. Aerodynamics arent everything. The F-18 E/F has one of the most modern av
61 Wvsuperhornet : The F-35 is anything but a poor-mans fighter when talking about the newer generation of fights maybe the mig-29,f-16, or Grippen maybe considered tha
62 Art : Supercruise has always been a capability as far as I know. With weapons. Wouldn't be much point in having a supercruise capability if you got to your
63 F27Friendship : I have to look up the document again, but there are some renounced studies the Flankers makes toast out of everthing flying at the moment which isnt
64 Post contains links DEVILFISH : The F-35B rolls out - pictures here..... http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...s-out-vertical-lift-f-35b-jsf.html Quote: "Lockheed Martin's first F-3
65 Lumberton : Perhaps the thread title should be modified to "F-35 flight testing continues"?
66 Post contains images Atmx2000 : Well, you could flee a bit faster after your angry target sends something after you.
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