Flyindutchman8 From Canada, joined Dec 2007, 1 posts, RR: 0 Posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 10254 times:
The Australian and Japanese Governments are showing interest in overturning the ban to create an international market for the F-22 Raptor. What are the chances that America will give up the advantage of having such an amazing war machine to themselves? Also, even if it does become available, would it be restricted from certain countries (other than the obvious), Japan perhaps being one, and what countries would really benefit/show interest in it? http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...nt%20Wants%20to%20Consider%20F-22s
N74JW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 10251 times:
I don't think the F-22 should be exported, but I have a feeling it will after this administration leaves office.
Possible F-22A operators that the US would consider allowing a F-22 purchase might include; Japan, S.Korea, Australia, & Israel.
Japan has to eventually replace their eagle with something. They buy then build American. I don't see the Typhoon, or Rafale making any inroads there.
S.Korea just signed on for the last F-15s to be produced. If they do get the F-22, it might not be for awhile.
Australia has a new administration with new agendas. The RAAF just decided to buy 24 F/A-18Fs to replace their F-111 fleet. The RAAF also is a participant in the F-35 program. Given those two, I am not too sure F-22s will be in Aussie skies any time soon.
Israel does not need the F-22 as it does not face any credible air-to-air threat. Plus, if Israel has to pay for them, then forget it...
DL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11372 posts, RR: 88 Reply 2, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 10212 times:
Quoting Flyindutchman8 (Thread starter): What are the chances that America will give up the advantage of having such an amazing war machine to themselves?
Since the Japanese will just build one of their own we may as well sell them ours, especially since they're one of our closest defence partners and allies.
Quoting N74JW (Reply 1): I don't think the F-22 should be exported, but I have a feeling it will after this administration leaves office.
I don't think it's a matter of choice.
They need this fighter and we need someone to increase the buy to develop some economics of scale.
Lumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 23 Reply 3, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 10212 times:
Quoting N74JW (Reply 1): I don't think the F-22 should be exported, but I have a feeling it will after this administration leaves office.
I would give good odds that you're correct. IMO, the Japanese and Australians will eventually be allowed to purchase this aircraft. I'd wager that it would be stipulated that they buy them "off the shelf" from Lockheed Martin.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
Atmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 44 Reply 4, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 10204 times:
Quoting N74JW (Reply 1): I don't think the F-22 should be exported, but I have a feeling it will after this administration leaves office.
There is substantial resistance to the idea in the DoD and Congress, so I think a change in administration will not be a key factor in changing the policy.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
N74JW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 5, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 10154 times:
I think the big resistance to export is V.P. Cheney. I have nothing to back that up, except what I have read about him. I really don't think dubya or Condi could care less. Cheney is the chief war-monger in my opinion, but that is for another thread.
I don't see the Aussie's getting the F-22, despite the recent build-up in the area.
Blackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 10125 times:
I do not think the Japanese should get the F-22 -- they're already working on their own design as it is. And we should put pressure on them to cut it out and accept the F-35 as it is.
Israel can't be trusted for a simple reason -- when we gave them technology in the past, on numerous occasions they have given the technology to people that we are not friends with, and some cases are enemies with. This is simply too big a threat to take lightly.
Sadly Israel, and potentially Japan will probably get their hands on the F-22. I hope not.
Wvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 499 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 10026 times:
I agree if anyone needs it it will be Japan. I doubt Australia would want to fork over the money but they are and always have been a close US ally so I have no problems selling it to them if they want it.
I am not for selling it to Israel due to the troubles we have had in the past with secrets.
Quoting Blackbird (Reply 6): I do not think the Japanese should get the F-22 -- they're already working on their own design as it is. And we should put pressure on them to cut it out and accept the F-35 as it is.
I disagree with this I dont think we should put pressure on Japan to accept the F-35 they really need the F-22 to counter China and will probably be our allies if we ever have to go to war with them, we will need the extra help. The F-2 they have other than stealth is probably close in capabilities to the F-35 anyway so why would they buy more.
EBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1858 posts, RR: 2 Reply 8, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 10007 times:
Quoting N74JW (Reply 1): I don't think the F-22 should be exported, but I have a feeling it will after this administration leaves office.
In all of the discussions I've read on this matter, no one seems to have taken into account that an export F-22A will be downgraded, to some extent, and will not be as able as the ones the USAF uses. You remove very sensitive systems and replace them with less capable ones that won't compromise the advantage the airplane gives the US. At the same time, the export model gives our allies an advantage over their most likely opponents. Comments?
N74jw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 10000 times:
Would clients accept a down-graded F-22A? I would not...
What would be the point? The whole aircraft is pretty advanced, in that removing one or two sensitive components could compromise the whole system's effectiveness overall.
Don't forget that the US has significant forces based in Japan. I would pit the USN's F/A-18E/F's over the Chinese Su-30 any day. The US also has a carrier battle group on station in the area at any given time. To say the JASDF 'needs' the F-22A is a bit of a stretch. Many would say the USAF doesn't need the F-22A...
Checksixx From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 896 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 9924 times:
Quoting N74jw (Reply 9): Many would say the USAF doesn't need the F-22A...
Those would be the uneducated of course...
Quoting Blackbird (Reply 10): If Israel got the F-22 it would be given all the bells and whistles... Israel always gets the best from us.
Israel puts its own systems in the aircraft it gets from the US.
EBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1858 posts, RR: 2 Reply 12, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 9920 times:
Quoting N74jw (Reply 9): Would clients accept a down-graded F-22A? I would not...
What would be the point? The whole aircraft is pretty advanced, in that removing one or two sensitive components could compromise the whole system's effectiveness overall.
I believe it's standard practice to replace some of the most sensitive (classified) equipment and replace it with something comparable but not as capable. This has been a practice for years now. I don't recall any nation buying combat aircraft from us and getting exactly what we have in terms of ECM, weapons guidance systems, etc. Checksixx, chime in on this one and correct me if I'm wrong.
Checksixx From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 896 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 9905 times:
Your correct...in many cases the customer will have they're domestic systems put into the aircraft when possible.
F27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1107 posts, RR: 6 Reply 14, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 9843 times:
Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 8): In all of the discussions I've read on this matter, no one seems to have taken into account that an export F-22A will be downgraded, to some extent, and will not be as able as the ones the USAF uses. You remove very sensitive systems and replace them with less capable ones that won't compromise the advantage the airplane gives the US. At the same time, the export model gives our allies an advantage over their most likely opponents. Comments?
true
Quoting Blackbird (Reply 10): If Israel got the F-22 it would be given all the bells and whistles... Israel always gets the best from us.
->
Quoting Checksixx (Reply 11): Israel puts its own systems in the aircraft it gets from the US.
No one else is allowed to do this for economical reasons. There is a lot of money to make in aftersales. Only the israeli's are permitted to do it themselves.
Wvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 499 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 9794 times:
Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 14): No one else is allowed to do this for economical reasons. There is a lot of money to make in aftersales. Only the israeli's are permitted to do it themselves.
Not totally true, Japan was allowed to add some of their equipment and partially build their F-15J's Israel wasn't even allowed to do that even some 15 years later. So my guess if the US decides to sell the F-22 to Japan they would leave their sensative equipment out and allow Japan (which has the technical know how) to add their own to it. As far as purchasing a downgraded F-22 I would even a down graded one would be more than a handfull to any opposition.
N74JW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 16, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 9780 times:
Quoting Checksixx (Reply 11): Those would be the uneducated of course...
That is based entirely on point of view. Your statement is way too general.
Quoting Checksixx (Reply 11): Israel puts its own systems in the aircraft it gets from the US.
Not everything! The advanced systems of the F-22A most likely do not a par, let alone an advanced derivative in Israel. I think the Python AAMs would have to be re-designed to fit in the F-22A's weapons compartments. Is their an IAI/Elta RADAR set that can surpass the APG-77 AESA in capability? Let's not forget, the US has never exported an aircraft with stealth technology.
Checksixx From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 896 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 9723 times:
Quoting N74JW (Reply 16): Quoting Checksixx (Reply 11):
Those would be the uneducated of course...
That is based entirely on point of view. Your statement is way too general.
Not at all. Anyone saying the Air Force doesn't need the F-22 has no clue how bad the F-15C/D fleet is, not to mention the boatload of other advantages the Raptor brings to the table.
Quoting N74JW (Reply 16): Quoting Checksixx (Reply 11):
Israel puts its own systems in the aircraft it gets from the US.
PADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 6 Reply 18, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 9721 times:
Quoting N74JW (Reply 16): Let's not forget, the US has never exported an aircraft with stealth technology.
Well at least one F-117 has been "exported" to a Belgrade military museum afaik ...
Quoting N74JW (Reply 16): Is their an IAI/Elta RADAR set that can surpass the APG-77 AESA in capability?
The AMSAR would be at least in the same level of performance. Don't know if it fits, but it would be a comparable type of radar.
Quoting N74JW (Reply 16): I think the Python AAMs would have to be re-designed to fit in the F-22A's weapons compartments.
Python 5 is only slightly larger than the AIM-9M. About 25cm longer, and 1cm more wing span. Is the the Sidewinder really that kind of tight fit in the F-22s weapons bay?
N74jw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 9699 times:
Quoting PADSpot (Reply 18): Well at least one F-117 has been "exported" to a Belgrade military museum afaik ...
The delivery method was a bit unconventional.
Quoting PADSpot (Reply 18): Python 5 is only slightly larger than the AIM-9M. About 25cm longer, and 1cm more wing span. Is the the Sidewinder really that kind of tight fit in the F-22s weapons bay?
AIM-9X, has very small fins...
Quoting Checksixx (Reply 17): Not at all. Anyone saying the Air Force doesn't need the F-22 has no clue how bad the F-15C/D fleet is, not to mention the boatload of other advantages the Raptor brings to the table.
If that is the case, what is the perceived mission. One could argue that the F-15's mission is air defense, and the USAF has aircraft in it's inventory that can perform that mission. The last CONUS air-threat was a Boeing 757/767. F-16s and USN F/A-18E/Fs are more than capable for air defense. That is not MY opinion, but it is the argument.
PADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 6 Reply 20, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9674 times:
Quoting N74jw (Reply 19): AIM-9X, has very small fins...
Strange, I assumed that in a thread a couple on months ago and got corrected by a senior US member that the AIM-9X is not yet used on the F-22, but the AIM-9M.
Checksixx From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 896 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9652 times:
Quoting N74jw (Reply 19): Quoting Checksixx (Reply 17):
Not at all. Anyone saying the Air Force doesn't need the F-22 has no clue how bad the F-15C/D fleet is, not to mention the boatload of other advantages the Raptor brings to the table.
If that is the case, what is the perceived mission. One could argue that the F-15's mission is air defense, and the USAF has aircraft in it's inventory that can perform that mission. The last CONUS air-threat was a Boeing 757/767. F-16s and USN F/A-18E/Fs are more than capable for air defense. That is not MY opinion, but it is the argument.
The problem is that many airframes F-15 C/D's, F-16's etc...are wearing down. The other problem is that you reach a point in upgrading an airframe where the room simply runs out. I'm not going to argue the F-15's mission because it is air defense/offense...thats what it was made for. You have to add in new technologies / threats to the equation...they didn't build a new fighter just because they wanted to throw away the money out of the budget. There are plenty of jets that can perform the defense mission in CONUS. The F-22 was built to take the fight to the enemy...unseen. Its a war jet. Not to mention there are no F-22A units assigned to NORAD at all. I do understand your view though.
Quoting PADSpot (Reply 20): Quoting N74jw (Reply 19):
AIM-9X, has very small fins...
Strange, I assumed that in a thread a couple on months ago and got corrected by a senior US member that the AIM-9X is not yet used on the F-22, but the AIM-9M.
Correct, the F-22 is not using the 9x at this time nor is there a need to. I will say that the 9x has been mounted on the jet though.
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 23614 posts, RR: 79 Reply 22, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 9626 times:
Quoting DL021 (Reply 2): Since the Japanese will just build one of their own we may as well sell them ours, especially since they're one of our closest defence partners and allies.
Japan announced this weekend that they will launch their own stealth fighter program since they cannot (at this time) get the F-22.
N74JW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 9625 times:
Quoting Checksixx (Reply 21): Correct, the F-22 is not using the 9x at this time nor is there a need to. I will say that the 9x has been mounted on the jet though.
Those are the only missiles I have seen in photos, aside of the AIM-120. Does the AIM-9M have the capability to use the Helmet-Mounted Sight? It would be a waste not to incorporate that feature into the F-22A's design.
PADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 6 Reply 24, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9607 times:
Quoting Checksixx (Reply 21): Correct, the F-22 is not using the 9x at this time nor is there a need to. I will say that the 9x has been mounted on the jet though.
So there is a good chance that a Python 5s would fit in the weapons bay? (assuming 25cm additional length and 1cm additional span width compared to the -9M)
Quoting N74JW (Reply 23): Does the AIM-9M have the capability to use the Helmet-Mounted Sight?
I would say so. Otherwise the enhanced field of vision of the AIM-9X is only of limited use.
25 Lumberton: In six years according to this article! http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/...a/AS-GEN-Japan-Stealth-Fighter.php Yes, sure, that'll just about cover
26 KevinSmith: If I understand you correctly you said you've only seen 9Xs on the F-22? Here a picture with it carrying 9Ms.
27 Blackbird: Still, Israel's systems are probably better than ours. Which makes giving the F-22 to them more dangerous. Especially since they can't be trusted in k
29 N74JW: I am curious too. Israel cannot be trusted with the technology, that goes without saying, but they do not NEED the F-22A. There is no air-to-air thre
30 PADSpot: I ask myself why Israel should have developed superior system for use on the F-22, when there is no market. Also, from what I know of the F-22s design
31 Checksixx: Not sure where you would have seen the 9x mounted on the jet as there are no releasable photo's of that.
32 Baroque: The financing was quite normal, however - through the Pentagon. It will be interesting to find what discussions the new Aus min for Defence has with
33 N74jw: Microsoft or Oracle must be controlling the licenses for that software...
34 Wvsuperhornet: I remember one of the top brass involved with the F-22 at the Pentagon mentioned that it would cost millions to develop an exportable version of the
35 Baroque: Interesting. Also interesting that the times they may be a changing. Check out the happenings in Bali!! Who knows what will happen next.
36 Wvsuperhornet: Whats happening in Bali that would relate to the F-22?
37 Ozair: That is not really an obstacle though. What is 2,3 or 500 million in redesign for an order around the 10-12 billion range + the life of airframe spar
38 Baroque: Nothing on the surface of it, but it does demonstrate that the US can perform a U-turn. Until then, this was thought not to be a maneuver in the armo
39 Baroque: I think you are right Ozair. What might be more of an obstacle will be Scrooge McSwann (presumably potentially more powerful than any old Scrooge McD
40 Lumberton: The Japanese appear to be in no hurry. Japan To Postpone Purchase of Fighters: Report
41 Blackbird: Israel is known to have highly advanced technology. In fact US Companies are often quick to buy them because of their incredibly high advanced designs
42 JakeOrion: Bringing a thread back from the dead, so don't Holy Batman me. Senate Panel Seeks End To F-22 Export Ban http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/i
43 Stitch: I'm certainly willing to let Australia have it. I'm pretty willing to let the Japanese have it (they don't always have the best record at protecting o
44 Keesje: I think countries that want to buy the F22 see a thread. That thread is often a neighbouring SU27/SU-30 operator. SU-27/30 : http://upload.wikimedia.o
45 Lumberton: Indeed. We can sell the F-22 to China ourselves (I get a lot of mileage out of that quote). I've seen a couple of reports (and started a thread!) abo
46 11Bravo: What a bad idea. Someday we'll regret selling our best stuff to the Saudis. As for F-22s, Like others here I think Japan and Australia seem like a re
47 GDB: Even if exports HAD been allowed, the same problem still arises, it's just too expensive, to buy and it seems, to operate. If Israel had got some, giv
48 Stitch: Well I expect Japan won't care about that - they're more worried about having a true Generation 5 fighter to sortie against China. Australia's securi
49 StasisLAX: http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009...home-f-22-looks-for-market-abroad/ Great idea. Build a super-plane, sell it to allies who could then sell it to
50 GDB: I don't see Japan buying it either, again the sheer cost. One problem with exporting the F-22, aside from costs and security, is that unlike the previ
51 Oroka: Let Israel throw in its own hardware... they can sell their own gear to China. I dont think stealth coatings are that secret anymore, and China could
52 Keesje: The Japanese and Chinese consider their own steath aircraft. The japanese defense might proceed building their own, like their new carfo and patrol ai
53 KC135TopBoom: I don't see any problems with selling the F-22 to Australia, Israel, or Japan. Just because the F-22A cannot be challanged today doesn't mean it won't
54 Cpd: Australia doesn't want the F-22, we've stated clearly that the F-35 and F-18 Super Hornet cover our needs. This was the outcome of a defence white-pa
55 Oroka: But, in the recent past Australia has shown interest in the F-22, and until the first RAAF F-35 is rolled off the factory floor, there is still a smal
56 Allegro: No production AESA radar yet from the Russians, and all they have shown is a passive back-plane design. An F-15 with the APG-79 is more than a match
57 Stitch: A fighter is only as good as the pilot in the seat and the people supporting him both in the air and back at base. In that regard, the US continues to
58 RJAF: I'm quite sure congress will be presurred by Israel for the F-22....especially with the recent Arab advanced fighterjet procurements (Saudis with the
59 Keesje: I would put the US Air Force Second to the Israeli Air Force. Seriously, apart from cold war steriod talk, underestimation comes before defeat. The e
60 Stitch: Well the USAF has been tested since the end of the Cold War and acquitted itself well in the Persian Gulf War, Yugoslavia and Iraq so indeed, anyone
61 Cpd: They shouldn't get it - because the technology would quickly end up in China or other such places. Israel shouldn't be trusted with the latest techno
62 Bramble: ....Yes, against an air force that spent a good portion of the 'war' defecting to Iran. The USAF had overwhelming air dominance on paper before the '
63 Stitch: Part of it is the power of the Jewish-American lobby. And during the Bush-Cheney years, they also had the Christian Zionists demanding Israel be well
64 Wvsuperhornet: You may as well forget it now after the us builds all they are going to buy the F-22 assembly line will end up like the F-14 line. "All part destroyed
65 DEVILFISH: With the latest requested being Block 50/52 F-16s, although these would come under the Foreign Military Sales umbrella..... http://www.defense-aerosp
66 DL767captain: It would be smart to sell the F-22 to strategic nations. We are obviously having issues with North Korea and Iran, who are our closest allies with ves
67 Oroka: Im pretty sure it is only F-15E based Eagles that can be upgraded to the SE standard. Also, it is better to have 300 F-22s flying around, even if 100
68 474218: Not on paper: Russia supplied Iraq with the the best equipment the Russians had. However, they didn't supply anyone who knew how or wanted to use it.
69 EBJ1248650: When did Saudi Arabia place a firm order for the Silent Eagle?
70 Wvsuperhornet: They haven't to my knowledge anyway the lastest order for F-15's and the most advanced version has been sold to singapore (not sure on delivery of it
71 BlackProjects: "smart politician" ?!? never met a Smart one apart from Tony Blair he could see the wrighting on the wall and Jumped ship. As for the f-22 going to ja
72 Wvsuperhornet: No arguments ther I actually liked Tony Blair. The new silent Eagle looks good has some low observability in it could be a good replacement for some
73 Venus6971: It looks like the Japanese are going to build there own version of a stealth vector nozzled fighter. http://shock.military.com/Shock/videos.do?display
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