Flyindutchman8 From Canada, joined Dec 2007, 1 posts, RR: 0 Posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 9975 times:
The Australian and Japanese Governments are showing interest in overturning the ban to create an international market for the F-22 Raptor. What are the chances that America will give up the advantage of having such an amazing war machine to themselves? Also, even if it does become available, would it be restricted from certain countries (other than the obvious), Japan perhaps being one, and what countries would really benefit/show interest in it? http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...nt%20Wants%20to%20Consider%20F-22s
N74JW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 9972 times:
I don't think the F-22 should be exported, but I have a feeling it will after this administration leaves office.
Possible F-22A operators that the US would consider allowing a F-22 purchase might include; Japan, S.Korea, Australia, & Israel.
Japan has to eventually replace their eagle with something. They buy then build American. I don't see the Typhoon, or Rafale making any inroads there.
S.Korea just signed on for the last F-15s to be produced. If they do get the F-22, it might not be for awhile.
Australia has a new administration with new agendas. The RAAF just decided to buy 24 F/A-18Fs to replace their F-111 fleet. The RAAF also is a participant in the F-35 program. Given those two, I am not too sure F-22s will be in Aussie skies any time soon.
Israel does not need the F-22 as it does not face any credible air-to-air threat. Plus, if Israel has to pay for them, then forget it...
DL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11345 posts, RR: 89 Reply 2, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 9933 times:
Quoting Flyindutchman8 (Thread starter): What are the chances that America will give up the advantage of having such an amazing war machine to themselves?
Since the Japanese will just build one of their own we may as well sell them ours, especially since they're one of our closest defence partners and allies.
Quoting N74JW (Reply 1): I don't think the F-22 should be exported, but I have a feeling it will after this administration leaves office.
I don't think it's a matter of choice.
They need this fighter and we need someone to increase the buy to develop some economics of scale.
Lumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 24 Reply 3, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 9933 times:
Quoting N74JW (Reply 1): I don't think the F-22 should be exported, but I have a feeling it will after this administration leaves office.
I would give good odds that you're correct. IMO, the Japanese and Australians will eventually be allowed to purchase this aircraft. I'd wager that it would be stipulated that they buy them "off the shelf" from Lockheed Martin.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
Atmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 45 Reply 4, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 9925 times:
Quoting N74JW (Reply 1): I don't think the F-22 should be exported, but I have a feeling it will after this administration leaves office.
There is substantial resistance to the idea in the DoD and Congress, so I think a change in administration will not be a key factor in changing the policy.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
N74JW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 5, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 9875 times:
I think the big resistance to export is V.P. Cheney. I have nothing to back that up, except what I have read about him. I really don't think dubya or Condi could care less. Cheney is the chief war-monger in my opinion, but that is for another thread.
I don't see the Aussie's getting the F-22, despite the recent build-up in the area.
Blackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (4 years 2 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 9846 times:
I do not think the Japanese should get the F-22 -- they're already working on their own design as it is. And we should put pressure on them to cut it out and accept the F-35 as it is.
Israel can't be trusted for a simple reason -- when we gave them technology in the past, on numerous occasions they have given the technology to people that we are not friends with, and some cases are enemies with. This is simply too big a threat to take lightly.
Sadly Israel, and potentially Japan will probably get their hands on the F-22. I hope not.
Wvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 498 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (4 years 2 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 9747 times:
I agree if anyone needs it it will be Japan. I doubt Australia would want to fork over the money but they are and always have been a close US ally so I have no problems selling it to them if they want it.
I am not for selling it to Israel due to the troubles we have had in the past with secrets.
Quoting Blackbird (Reply 6): I do not think the Japanese should get the F-22 -- they're already working on their own design as it is. And we should put pressure on them to cut it out and accept the F-35 as it is.
I disagree with this I dont think we should put pressure on Japan to accept the F-35 they really need the F-22 to counter China and will probably be our allies if we ever have to go to war with them, we will need the extra help. The F-2 they have other than stealth is probably close in capabilities to the F-35 anyway so why would they buy more.
EBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1817 posts, RR: 2 Reply 8, posted (4 years 2 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9728 times:
Quoting N74JW (Reply 1): I don't think the F-22 should be exported, but I have a feeling it will after this administration leaves office.
In all of the discussions I've read on this matter, no one seems to have taken into account that an export F-22A will be downgraded, to some extent, and will not be as able as the ones the USAF uses. You remove very sensitive systems and replace them with less capable ones that won't compromise the advantage the airplane gives the US. At the same time, the export model gives our allies an advantage over their most likely opponents. Comments?
N74jw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (4 years 2 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9721 times:
Would clients accept a down-graded F-22A? I would not...
What would be the point? The whole aircraft is pretty advanced, in that removing one or two sensitive components could compromise the whole system's effectiveness overall.
Don't forget that the US has significant forces based in Japan. I would pit the USN's F/A-18E/F's over the Chinese Su-30 any day. The US also has a carrier battle group on station in the area at any given time. To say the JASDF 'needs' the F-22A is a bit of a stretch. Many would say the USAF doesn't need the F-22A...
Checksixx From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 873 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (4 years 2 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 9645 times:
Quoting N74jw (Reply 9): Many would say the USAF doesn't need the F-22A...
Those would be the uneducated of course...
Quoting Blackbird (Reply 10): If Israel got the F-22 it would be given all the bells and whistles... Israel always gets the best from us.
Israel puts its own systems in the aircraft it gets from the US.
EBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1817 posts, RR: 2 Reply 12, posted (4 years 2 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 9641 times:
Quoting N74jw (Reply 9): Would clients accept a down-graded F-22A? I would not...
What would be the point? The whole aircraft is pretty advanced, in that removing one or two sensitive components could compromise the whole system's effectiveness overall.
I believe it's standard practice to replace some of the most sensitive (classified) equipment and replace it with something comparable but not as capable. This has been a practice for years now. I don't recall any nation buying combat aircraft from us and getting exactly what we have in terms of ECM, weapons guidance systems, etc. Checksixx, chime in on this one and correct me if I'm wrong.
F27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1106 posts, RR: 6 Reply 14, posted (4 years 2 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 9564 times:
Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 8): In all of the discussions I've read on this matter, no one seems to have taken into account that an export F-22A will be downgraded, to some extent, and will not be as able as the ones the USAF uses. You remove very sensitive systems and replace them with less capable ones that won't compromise the advantage the airplane gives the US. At the same time, the export model gives our allies an advantage over their most likely opponents. Comments?
true
Quoting Blackbird (Reply 10): If Israel got the F-22 it would be given all the bells and whistles... Israel always gets the best from us.
->
Quoting Checksixx (Reply 11): Israel puts its own systems in the aircraft it gets from the US.
No one else is allowed to do this for economical reasons. There is a lot of money to make in aftersales. Only the israeli's are permitted to do it themselves.
Wvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 498 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (4 years 2 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 9515 times:
Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 14): No one else is allowed to do this for economical reasons. There is a lot of money to make in aftersales. Only the israeli's are permitted to do it themselves.
Not totally true, Japan was allowed to add some of their equipment and partially build their F-15J's Israel wasn't even allowed to do that even some 15 years later. So my guess if the US decides to sell the F-22 to Japan they would leave their sensative equipment out and allow Japan (which has the technical know how) to add their own to it. As far as purchasing a downgraded F-22 I would even a down graded one would be more than a handfull to any opposition.
N74JW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 16, posted (4 years 2 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 9501 times:
Quoting Checksixx (Reply 11): Those would be the uneducated of course...
That is based entirely on point of view. Your statement is way too general.
Quoting Checksixx (Reply 11): Israel puts its own systems in the aircraft it gets from the US.
Not everything! The advanced systems of the F-22A most likely do not a par, let alone an advanced derivative in Israel. I think the Python AAMs would have to be re-designed to fit in the F-22A's weapons compartments. Is their an IAI/Elta RADAR set that can surpass the APG-77 AESA in capability? Let's not forget, the US has never exported an aircraft with stealth technology.
Checksixx From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 873 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (4 years 2 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 9444 times:
Quoting N74JW (Reply 16): Quoting Checksixx (Reply 11):
Those would be the uneducated of course...
That is based entirely on point of view. Your statement is way too general.
Not at all. Anyone saying the Air Force doesn't need the F-22 has no clue how bad the F-15C/D fleet is, not to mention the boatload of other advantages the Raptor brings to the table.
Quoting N74JW (Reply 16): Quoting Checksixx (Reply 11):
Israel puts its own systems in the aircraft it gets from the US.
PADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 7 Reply 18, posted (4 years 2 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 9442 times:
Quoting N74JW (Reply 16): Let's not forget, the US has never exported an aircraft with stealth technology.
Well at least one F-117 has been "exported" to a Belgrade military museum afaik ...
Quoting N74JW (Reply 16): Is their an IAI/Elta RADAR set that can surpass the APG-77 AESA in capability?
The AMSAR would be at least in the same level of performance. Don't know if it fits, but it would be a comparable type of radar.
Quoting N74JW (Reply 16): I think the Python AAMs would have to be re-designed to fit in the F-22A's weapons compartments.
Python 5 is only slightly larger than the AIM-9M. About 25cm longer, and 1cm more wing span. Is the the Sidewinder really that kind of tight fit in the F-22s weapons bay?
N74jw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (4 years 2 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 9420 times:
Quoting PADSpot (Reply 18): Well at least one F-117 has been "exported" to a Belgrade military museum afaik ...
The delivery method was a bit unconventional.
Quoting PADSpot (Reply 18): Python 5 is only slightly larger than the AIM-9M. About 25cm longer, and 1cm more wing span. Is the the Sidewinder really that kind of tight fit in the F-22s weapons bay?
AIM-9X, has very small fins...
Quoting Checksixx (Reply 17): Not at all. Anyone saying the Air Force doesn't need the F-22 has no clue how bad the F-15C/D fleet is, not to mention the boatload of other advantages the Raptor brings to the table.
If that is the case, what is the perceived mission. One could argue that the F-15's mission is air defense, and the USAF has aircraft in it's inventory that can perform that mission. The last CONUS air-threat was a Boeing 757/767. F-16s and USN F/A-18E/Fs are more than capable for air defense. That is not MY opinion, but it is the argument.
PADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 7 Reply 20, posted (4 years 2 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9395 times:
Quoting N74jw (Reply 19): AIM-9X, has very small fins...
Strange, I assumed that in a thread a couple on months ago and got corrected by a senior US member that the AIM-9X is not yet used on the F-22, but the AIM-9M.
Checksixx From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 873 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (4 years 2 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9373 times:
Quoting N74jw (Reply 19): Quoting Checksixx (Reply 17):
Not at all. Anyone saying the Air Force doesn't need the F-22 has no clue how bad the F-15C/D fleet is, not to mention the boatload of other advantages the Raptor brings to the table.
If that is the case, what is the perceived mission. One could argue that the F-15's mission is air defense, and the USAF has aircraft in it's inventory that can perform that mission. The last CONUS air-threat was a Boeing 757/767. F-16s and USN F/A-18E/Fs are more than capable for air defense. That is not MY opinion, but it is the argument.
The problem is that many airframes F-15 C/D's, F-16's etc...are wearing down. The other problem is that you reach a point in upgrading an airframe where the room simply runs out. I'm not going to argue the F-15's mission because it is air defense/offense...thats what it was made for. You have to add in new technologies / threats to the equation...they didn't build a new fighter just because they wanted to throw away the money out of the budget. There are plenty of jets that can perform the defense mission in CONUS. The F-22 was built to take the fight to the enemy...unseen. Its a war jet. Not to mention there are no F-22A units assigned to NORAD at all. I do understand your view though.
Quoting PADSpot (Reply 20): Quoting N74jw (Reply 19):
AIM-9X, has very small fins...
Strange, I assumed that in a thread a couple on months ago and got corrected by a senior US member that the AIM-9X is not yet used on the F-22, but the AIM-9M.
Correct, the F-22 is not using the 9x at this time nor is there a need to. I will say that the 9x has been mounted on the jet though.
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 22934 posts, RR: 78 Reply 22, posted (4 years 2 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 9347 times:
Quoting DL021 (Reply 2): Since the Japanese will just build one of their own we may as well sell them ours, especially since they're one of our closest defence partners and allies.
Japan announced this weekend that they will launch their own stealth fighter program since they cannot (at this time) get the F-22.
N74JW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (4 years 2 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 9346 times:
Quoting Checksixx (Reply 21): Correct, the F-22 is not using the 9x at this time nor is there a need to. I will say that the 9x has been mounted on the jet though.
Those are the only missiles I have seen in photos, aside of the AIM-120. Does the AIM-9M have the capability to use the Helmet-Mounted Sight? It would be a waste not to incorporate that feature into the F-22A's design.
PADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 7 Reply 24, posted (4 years 2 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 9328 times:
Quoting Checksixx (Reply 21): Correct, the F-22 is not using the 9x at this time nor is there a need to. I will say that the 9x has been mounted on the jet though.
So there is a good chance that a Python 5s would fit in the weapons bay? (assuming 25cm additional length and 1cm additional span width compared to the -9M)
Quoting N74JW (Reply 23): Does the AIM-9M have the capability to use the Helmet-Mounted Sight?
I would say so. Otherwise the enhanced field of vision of the AIM-9X is only of limited use.
Lumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 24 Reply 25, posted (4 years 2 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 9310 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 22): Japan announced this weekend that they will launch their own stealth fighter program since they cannot (at this time) get the F-22.
Quote: The key part of the six-year project, to be officially launched next April, involves developing an XF5-1 engine that would allow a fighter jet to be both highly maneuverable and cruise at supersonic speeds.
Quote: Defense officials hope to have a test flight of the prototype, unofficially nicknamed "Shinshin," or spirit, by the end of March 2014. The entire project is expected to cost 46.6 billion yen (US$419.8 million).
Yes, sure, that'll just about cover it.
Good luck.
Don't give up on those negotiations, guys. There will be a change of administration soon.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
KevinSmith From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 26, posted (4 years 2 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 9756 times:
Quoting N74JW (Reply 23): Those are the only missiles I have seen in photos, aside of the AIM-120. Does the AIM-9M have the capability to use the Helmet-Mounted Sight? It would be a waste not to incorporate that feature into the F-22A's design.
If I understand you correctly you said you've only seen 9Xs on the F-22? Here a picture with it carrying 9Ms.
Blackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 27, posted (4 years 2 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 9756 times:
Still, Israel's systems are probably better than ours. Which makes giving the F-22 to them more dangerous. Especially since they can't be trusted in keeping the design we give them (even the airframe is advanced) to itself and might give them to China or who knows who else...
I am curious too. Israel cannot be trusted with the technology, that goes without saying, but they do not NEED the F-22A. There is no air-to-air threat that the current IASF cannot handle. Syria, Lebanon, Iran, any attack from those nations will not involve the use of military aircraft. Suicide bombers, terrorist attacks, and perhaps medium-range missiles are the real threats Israel faces and not an enemy air force.
PADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 7 Reply 30, posted (4 years 2 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 9630 times:
I ask myself why Israel should have developed superior system for use on the F-22, when there is no market. Also, from what I know of the F-22s design philosophy, you cannot really develop anything for it unless your really involved. The F-22 is a much more, proprietary and closed system whose components are largely tailored to the specific design needs of the entire concept. Also computer-wise, it is a pretty much centralized system. I.e. you cannot just exchange one part for another and expect that the system still works. The system architecture is completely different from that an on F-15, F-16 or EF. It wouldn't be too hard to israelize a Eurofighter on the other hand ...
Checksixx From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 873 posts, RR: 0 Reply 31, posted (4 years 2 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 9587 times:
Quoting N74JW (Reply 23): Quoting Checksixx (Reply 21):
Correct, the F-22 is not using the 9x at this time nor is there a need to. I will say that the 9x has been mounted on the jet though.
Those are the only missiles I have seen in photos, aside of the AIM-120. Does the AIM-9M have the capability to use the Helmet-Mounted Sight? It would be a waste not to incorporate that feature into the F-22A's design.
Not sure where you would have seen the 9x mounted on the jet as there are no releasable photo's of that.
Baroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 60 Reply 32, posted (4 years 2 months 21 hours ago) and read 9481 times:
Quoting N74jw (Reply 19): Quoting PADSpot (Reply 18):
Well at least one F-117 has been "exported" to a Belgrade military museum afaik ...
The delivery method was a bit unconventional.
The financing was quite normal, however - through the Pentagon.
It will be interesting to find what discussions the new Aus min for Defence has with the US. If we are to get a degraded US plane, it would probably be better to have an F22M rather than an F35M - the M standing for Minus. The explanations that the F35 would come with access to source codes has been less than convincing.
Wvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 498 posts, RR: 0 Reply 34, posted (4 years 2 months 14 hours ago) and read 9406 times:
Quoting Baroque (Reply 32): It will be interesting to find what discussions the new Aus min for Defence has with the US. If we are to get a degraded US plane, it would probably be better to have an F22M rather than an F35M - the M standing for Minus. The explanations that the F35 would come with access to source codes has been less than convincing.
I remember one of the top brass involved with the F-22 at the Pentagon mentioned that it would cost millions to develop an exportable version of the F-22 since it was never designed to be exported in the first place. Thats something to keep in mind also. I am not quite sure with the F-15 problems and fighting 2 wars that the US tax payer is going to be willing to fork over more money to export the F-22.
Baroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 60 Reply 35, posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 9325 times:
Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 34): Thats something to keep in mind also. I am not quite sure with the F-15 problems and fighting 2 wars that the US tax payer is going to be willing to fork over more money to export the F-22.
Interesting. Also interesting that the times they may be a changing. Check out the happenings in Bali!! Who knows what will happen next.
Wvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 498 posts, RR: 0 Reply 36, posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 9243 times:
Quoting Baroque (Reply 35): Interesting. Also interesting that the times they may be a changing. Check out the happenings in Bali!! Who knows what will happen next.
Whats happening in Bali that would relate to the F-22?
Ozair From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 550 posts, RR: 0 Reply 37, posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 9237 times:
Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 34): I remember one of the top brass involved with the F-22 at the Pentagon mentioned that it would cost millions to develop an exportable version of the F-22 since it was never designed to be exported in the first place.
That is not really an obstacle though. What is 2,3 or 500 million in redesign for an order around the 10-12 billion range + the life of airframe spares logistics support?
Baroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 60 Reply 38, posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 9235 times:
Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 36): Quoting Baroque (Reply 35):
Interesting. Also interesting that the times they may be a changing. Check out the happenings in Bali!! Who knows what will happen next.
Whats happening in Bali that would relate to the F-22?
Nothing on the surface of it, but it does demonstrate that the US can perform a U-turn. Until then, this was thought not to be a maneuver in the armoury of US diplomacy. You just never know how catching this sort of thing could be!
In the end, climate/energy policies and defence policies could well turn out to closely connected.
Baroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 60 Reply 39, posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 9233 times:
Quoting Ozair (Reply 37): That is not really an obstacle though. What is 2,3 or 500 million in redesign for an order around the 10-12 billion range + the life of airframe spares logistics support?
I think you are right Ozair. What might be more of an obstacle will be Scrooge McSwann (presumably potentially more powerful than any old Scrooge McDuck). Also we might not have someone as spendthrift as the Ex Boy Scout, now come back to life as an Opposition Leader.
Lumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 24 Reply 40, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 9200 times:
Blackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 41, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 9154 times:
Israel is known to have highly advanced technology. In fact US Companies are often quick to buy them because of their incredibly high advanced designs.
JakeOrion From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1203 posts, RR: 2 Reply 42, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 8338 times:
Bringing a thread back from the dead, so don't Holy Batman me.
Senate Panel Seeks End To F-22 Export Ban
Quote: WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A Senate panel urged the Air Force on Thursday to start developing an export model of its F-22 Raptor, the most advanced U.S. fighter jet, even as it voted to end U.S. purchases.
Japan, Israel and Australia have shown interest in buying the supersonic, radar-evading F-22 Raptor, designed to destroy enemy air defenses in the first days of any conflict and clear the way for other missions.
I'm actually in favor of this, but only as long as said countries can protect the technologies and secrets of the F-22 as the USAF has. Definitely would like to see Japan and Australia get them though. Kind of on the fence with Israel after I found this report:
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 22934 posts, RR: 78 Reply 43, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 8306 times:
I'm certainly willing to let Australia have it.
I'm pretty willing to let the Japanese have it (they don't always have the best record at protecting our technology, but still).
I'm pretty unwilling to let Israel have it. Can we interest you in some F-15 Silent Eagles?
Lumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 24 Reply 45, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 8224 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 43): I'm pretty unwilling to let Israel have it. Can we interest you in some F-15 Silent Eagles? Wink
Indeed. We can sell the F-22 to China ourselves (I get a lot of mileage out of that quote).
I've seen a couple of reports (and started a thread!) about Saudi Arabia buying 72 additional F-15s. Latest report is that it will be the same version that Singapore bought, which is a very, very capable aircraft. AIPAC ain't nearly as influential as was in times past, but still retains a lot of influence.
What we do for one, we must do for others. AIPAC would scream bloody murder if we sold the thing to Japan & Australia but didn't offer it (and pay for it) to our "most reliable mideast ally".
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
11Bravo From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1644 posts, RR: 13 Reply 46, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 8201 times:
Quoting Lumberton (Reply 45): I've seen a couple of reports (and started a thread!) about Saudi Arabia buying 72 additional F-15s.
What a bad idea. Someday we'll regret selling our best stuff to the Saudis.
As for F-22s, Like others here I think Japan and Australia seem like a reasonable choice.
If it were up to me, I'd be very reluctant to let Israel have the F-22.
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 22934 posts, RR: 78 Reply 48, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 7870 times:
Quoting GDB (Reply 47): Even if exports HAD been allowed, the same problem still arises, it's just too expensive, to buy and it seems, to operate.
Well I expect Japan won't care about that - they're more worried about having a true Generation 5 fighter to sortie against China.
Australia's security position is much more secure, so they may indeed decide that they don't need the F-22.
StasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 2826 posts, RR: 1 Reply 49, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 7763 times:
Great idea. Build a super-plane, sell it to allies who could then sell it to America's enemies. Then have said enemies them show up over our heads unleashing holy hell. Terrific.
We may not have a choice but to sell the F-22 directly to China if we want the Chinese to keep buying our federal debt. As a nation, the United States is beginning to discover the perils of being a debtor nation.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
GDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 12235 posts, RR: 84 Reply 50, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 7757 times:
I don't see Japan buying it either, again the sheer cost.
One problem with exporting the F-22, aside from costs and security, is that unlike the previous generation of aircraft, there is just no Russian counterpart to create the need.
Russian in that they may supply hostile states.
You could justify F-15 to easily better the Mig-23, to match or still beat the Mig-29/SU-27 types, but where is the Russian generation to follow?
Upgrades to the Mig-29 and especially the SU-27 still keep it in the upgraded F-15/16/18 classes, does not really put them in the Rafale/Typhoon class.
Let alone the F-22.
And this must have been an issue for the USAF too, had Russian built, or was seriously building as in flying/close to service a new generation, the USAF might well have got more like the F-22 numbers it wanted.
Then for them, the killer question, if this aircraft is so capable, will be so dominant, why do you need so many?
The previous leap, in strike aircraft, the F-117, was praised for being able to do a mission that before would have required not just bomb droppers, but fighter escorts, ECM aircraft, anti radar missiles.
Oroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 616 posts, RR: 0 Reply 51, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7886 times:
Let Israel throw in its own hardware... they can sell their own gear to China. I dont think stealth coatings are that secret anymore, and China could just go buy a F-22 model kit to get the airframe shape. It is the electronics suite that is the most valuable part.
Japan, make a deal with Israel for the electronics suite. Australia, sell them the genuine article.
IMO as many F-22s flying in friendly hands, the better.
Keesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 52, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 7822 times:
The Japanese and Chinese consider their own steath aircraft. The japanese defense might proceed building their own, like their new carfo and patrol aircraft, helicopters, spacecraft, flying boats..
KC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10567 posts, RR: 53 Reply 53, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7774 times:
I don't see any problems with selling the F-22 to Australia, Israel, or Japan. Just because the F-22A cannot be challanged today doesn't mean it won't be challanged 5-10 years from now. The US Congress is very short sited in looking at weapons capabilities for today only, not the future.
Sell it to our friends now, and begin developing a true follow on to the F-15C/F-22A, and later the F-15E.
Cpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4765 posts, RR: 49 Reply 54, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7543 times:
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 53): don't see any problems with selling the F-22 to Australia, Israel, or Japan.
Australia doesn't want the F-22, we've stated clearly that the F-35 and F-18 Super Hornet cover our needs. This was the outcome of a defence white-paper that subsequently approved the decision of the Howard government to acquire these planes. In addition to that, the first RAAF F-18 Super Hornet has already been built and 'handed-over' in an official ceremony.
Oroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 616 posts, RR: 0 Reply 55, posted (2 years 5 months 13 hours ago) and read 7356 times:
But, in the recent past Australia has shown interest in the F-22, and until the first RAAF F-35 is rolled off the factory floor, there is still a small chance Australia will be interested.
No production AESA radar yet from the Russians, and all they have shown is a passive back-plane design. An F-15 with the APG-79 is more than a match for any Sukhoi ...
This radar is the game changer IMHO. This radar can do so d*mn much ... it's scary.
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 22934 posts, RR: 78 Reply 57, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7200 times:
A fighter is only as good as the pilot in the seat and the people supporting him both in the air and back at base.
In that regard, the US continues to have no equal and not far behind them are the major European, Japanese, Australian and Israeli Air Forces.
So even if the Russians or Chinese come up with a true Generation 5 fighter or the Russians significantly advance the performance of their Generation 4.5 equipment they export, I'd still place my money on an EU/Japanese/IAussie/Israeli F-15, Typhoon or Rafale kicking it's ass.
RJAF From Jordan, joined Jan 2007, 281 posts, RR: 0 Reply 58, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6994 times:
I'm quite sure congress will be presurred by Israel for the F-22....especially with the recent Arab advanced fighterjet procurements (Saudis with the Silent Eagle and the Syrians with the Mig-31s - not surprisingly, both will have watered down versions in terms of avionics). America will always keep Israel a steap ahead of the Arabs in terms of advanced fighters especially when Israel depends so much on air superiority.
Keesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 59, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 6463 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 57): A fighter is only as good as the pilot in the seat and the people supporting him both in the air and back at base.
In that regard, the US continues to have no equal and not far behind them are the major European, Japanese, Australian and Israeli Air Forces.
I would put the US Air Force Second to the Israeli Air Force.
Seriously, apart from cold war steriod talk, underestimation comes before defeat.
Quoting Allegro (Reply 56): No production AESA radar yet from the Russians, and all they have shown is a passive back-plane design. An F-15 with the APG-79 is more than a match for any Sukhoi ...
The export of powerfull & flexible russian phased array radars and missiles and the growing range of aircraft is of growing concern to Western Airforces.
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 22934 posts, RR: 78 Reply 60, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 6424 times:
Quoting Keesje (Reply 59): Seriously, apart from cold war steriod talk, underestimation comes before defeat.
Well the USAF has been tested since the end of the Cold War and acquitted itself well in the Persian Gulf War, Yugoslavia and Iraq so indeed, anyone who underestimates us will likely find their equipment digging craters.
Cpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4765 posts, RR: 49 Reply 61, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 6329 times:
Quoting RJAF (Reply 58): I'm quite sure congress will be presurred by Israel for the F-22....especially with the recent Arab advanced fighterjet procurements
They shouldn't get it - because the technology would quickly end up in China or other such places. Israel shouldn't be trusted with the latest technology.
Bramble From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 62, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 6319 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 60):
Well the USAF has been tested since the end of the Cold War and acquitted itself well in the Persian Gulf War,
....Yes, against an air force that spent a good portion of the 'war' defecting to Iran. The USAF had overwhelming air dominance on paper before the 'air war' kicked off.
Quoting Stitch (Reply 60): Well the USAF has been tested ........ anyone who underestimates us will likely find their equipment digging craters.
I think its been along time since the USAF were underestimated
Quoting AF" class=quote target=_blank>RJAF (Reply 58): I'm quite sure congress will be presurred by Israel for the F-22........................America will always keep Israel a steap ahead of the Arabs in terms of advanced fighters especially when Israel depends so much on air superiority.
I ahve to ask....why does the US keep GIVING them assets. I have no problem with supporting an ally but the US miliatry aid to Israel is tantamoumnt to war supplies.
Quoting Cpd (Reply 61): They shouldn't get it - because the technology would quickly end up in China or other such places
As if the PRC can't infilrate US installationes themselves..............Ooops,there go those rocket secrets!
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 22934 posts, RR: 78 Reply 63, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 6323 times:
Quoting Bramble (Reply 62): I ahve to ask....why does the US keep GIVING them assets.
Part of it is the power of the Jewish-American lobby. And during the Bush-Cheney years, they also had the Christian Zionists demanding Israel be well take care of.
Part of it is the Camp David Accords which pretty much tied the US to heaping aid on Israel and Egypt to get them to sign the peace treaty.
Wvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 498 posts, RR: 0 Reply 64, posted (2 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5784 times:
You may as well forget it now after the us builds all they are going to buy the F-22 assembly line will end up like the F-14 line. "All part destroyed".
DEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 3973 posts, RR: 2 Reply 65, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5619 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 63):
Part of it is the Camp David Accords which pretty much tied the US to heaping aid on Israel and Egypt to get them to sign the peace treaty.
With the latest requested being Block 50/52 F-16s, although these would come under the Foreign Military Sales umbrella.....
"WASHINGTON --- The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress today of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Egypt of 24 F-16C/D Block 50/52 Aircraft and associated parts weapons and equipment, as well as other Non-MDE equipment and construction services.
The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $3.2 Billion."
I suppose the DSCA wouldn't have allowed Super Vipers if they asked. Meanwhile, Israel is contemplating an upgrade to its F-15s while it waits for the F-35.....
Quote: "The Israeli air force is finalising plans for the first-ever comprehensive upgrade of its Boeing F-15 C/Ds. The front-line fighters have been in service since 1976. Some airframe strengthening and replacement of some of the wiring and hydraulics and the air conditioning system should extend the aircrafts' service lives by at least 10 years. The upgrade will also include new avionics and displays, and a health-monitoring system to ease maintenance."
Didn't Boeing say that the Silent Eagle's features could be retrofitted to existing F-15s -- perhaps it's not worth the effort and expense for aircraft this old?
DL767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0 Reply 66, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5289 times:
It would be smart to sell the F-22 to strategic nations. We are obviously having issues with North Korea and Iran, who are our closest allies with vested interests in these countries? Japan, South Korea, and Israel. hmmmm, they would be the ones to help us "explain" to Iran and North Korea that we aren't going to take their crap anymore (After Obama leaves office).
I have a hard time seeing the US sell its most advanced fighter ever developed overseas but you have to make money some how to get us out of this debt i guess.
Oroka From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 616 posts, RR: 0 Reply 67, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5195 times:
Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 65): Didn't Boeing say that the Silent Eagle's features could be retrofitted to existing F-15s -- perhaps it's not worth the effort and expense for aircraft this old?
Im pretty sure it is only F-15E based Eagles that can be upgraded to the SE standard.
Quoting DL767captain (Reply 66): I have a hard time seeing the US sell its most advanced fighter ever developed overseas but you have to make money some how to get us out of this debt i guess.
Also, it is better to have 300 F-22s flying around, even if 100+ of them are flown by allied countries.
474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9 Reply 68, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5194 times:
Quoting Bramble (Reply 62): Yes, against an air force that spent a good portion of the 'war' defecting to Iran. The USAF had overwhelming air dominance on paper before the 'air war' kicked off.
Not on paper: Russia supplied Iraq with the the best equipment the Russians had. However, they didn't supply anyone who knew how or wanted to use it.
EBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1817 posts, RR: 2 Reply 69, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5181 times:
When did Saudi Arabia place a firm order for the Silent Eagle?
Wvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 498 posts, RR: 0 Reply 70, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 4973 times:
Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 69): When did Saudi Arabia place a firm order for the Silent Eagle?
They haven't to my knowledge anyway the lastest order for F-15's and the most advanced version has been sold to singapore (not sure on delivery of it but should be soon if not already)
Quoting Oroka (Reply 67): Im pretty sure it is only F-15E based Eagles that can be upgraded to the SE standard.
It is the F-15E version is the only 2 seater.
Quoting DL767captain (Reply 66): It would be smart to sell the F-22 to strategic nations. We are obviously having issues with North Korea and Iran, who are our closest allies with vested interests in these countries? Japan, South Korea, and Israel. hmmmm, they would be the ones to help us "explain" to Iran and North Korea that we aren't going to take their crap anymore (After Obama leaves office).
The magic word there are "smart" when was the last time you have ever seen a "smart politician". It would also keep the F-22 line open but thats another story.
BlackProjects From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2007, 748 posts, RR: 4 Reply 71, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4904 times:
"smart politician" ?!? never met a Smart one apart from Tony Blair he could see the wrighting on the wall and Jumped ship.
As for the f-22 going to japan if they want it and it can been down graded enough why not sell them the machines as they would probably upgrade it way beyond the orignal design once it belongs to them with all kinds of fancy Gizmos under the Skin!
The Saudis are after F-15s and by the time they get the new ones they will be the SE version so no problems with the order when it happens!
The F-15SE is basicaly an F-15 full of F-22 bits and peices sort of an economy version of the Raptor.
Wvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 498 posts, RR: 0 Reply 72, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4837 times:
Quoting BlackProjects (Reply 71): "smart politician" ?!? never met a Smart one apart from Tony Blair he could see the wrighting on the wall and Jumped ship.
No arguments ther I actually liked Tony Blair. The new silent Eagle looks good has some low observability in it could be a good replacement for some of the countries wanting the F-22
Venus6971 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1366 posts, RR: 1 Reply 73, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4390 times:
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