DEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4450 posts, RR: 1 Posted (5 years 6 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4584 times:
Now it can be told. Congress has been notified of the potential sale of 24 Lockheed Martin F-16C/D Block 50/52 fighters, and 24 Hawker Beechcraft T-6B trainers to Morocco. Image and details here.....
Quote: "US Congress has been notified of the possible sale of 24 Lockheed Martin F-16C/D fighters and 24 Hawker Beechcraft T-6B trainers to Morocco, together valued at up to $2.6 billion.
French officials announced in October than Morocco had rejected its offer of Dassault Rafale fighters and selected the F-16, but the notification by the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency is the first formal acknowledgement by the US government.
DSCA says Morocco has requested the possible sale of 24 F-16C/D Block 50/52 aircraft with Northrop Grumman APG-68(V)9 radars and either Pratt & Whitney F100-229 or General Electric F110-129 improved-performance engines.
The $2.4 billion sale would include conformal fuel tanks, either Lockheed AAQ-33 Sniper or Northrop AAQ-28 Litening targeting pods, BAE Systems or Goodrich reconnaissance pods and a choice of self-protection electronic warfare suites. Helmet-mounted cueing systems, Link 16 datalinks and Have Quick secure radios are included."
I was expecting them to go for the compact AESA radar being developed by NG, and also by Raytheon, so their F-16 package could be at the forefront of technology and remain current for a longer time. Maybe both designs would not yet be ready by the time their fighters need to be delivered. Nonetheless, they're fielding a very capable version in the (V)9, which together with the weapons fit and the proven platform could offset perceived superiority of immediate threats.
Likewise, the T-6B is a known quantity and would well complement the Block 50/52s in giving Morocco a cost effective, but credible and formidable defense posture.
EBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 2 Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4502 times:
Quoting DEVILFISH (Thread starter): French officials announced in October than Morocco had rejected its offer of Dassault Rafale fighters and selected the F-16, but the notification by the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency is the first formal acknowledgement by the US government.
What does France have as a potential Rafale export customer? There was something here at a.net a while back that the Royal Navy was going to buy Rafale M's, but nothing more has been said.
DEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4450 posts, RR: 1 Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4493 times:
Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 1): What does France have as a potential Rafale export customer? There was something here at a.net a while back that the Royal Navy was going to buy Rafale M's, but nothing more has been said.
Quote: "Morocco is buying new F-16C/D Block 50/52 aircraft similar to those delivered to Poland, and fitted with Helmet-Mounted Cueing Systems, APG-68(V)9 radars and conformal fuel tanks."
"(EDITOR'S NOTE: Contrary to earlier reports, Morocco is buying new F-16s, and not surplus US Air Force aircraft. The price it is paying is broadly comparable to that offered by France for the Rafale, giving the lie to reports that Moroccan authorities were swayed by a cut-rate offer made by the United States. France made two offers, one for 18 Rafales for 1.8 billion euros ($2.6 billion), and one for 2.2 billion euros ($3.2 billion) for 24 aircraft. The French offers included a full weapons suite (MICA air-to-air missiles and AASM laser-guided bombs) as well as an extensive ground environment, that Morocco will have to buy separately for the F-16s.)"
EBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 2 Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4474 times:
Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 2): "(EDITOR'S NOTE: Contrary to earlier reports, Morocco is buying new F-16s, and not surplus US Air Force aircraft. The price it is paying is broadly comparable to that offered by France for the Rafale, giving the lie to reports that Moroccan authorities were swayed by a cut-rate offer made by the United States. France made two offers, one for 18 Rafales for 1.8 billion euros ($2.6 billion), and one for 2.2 billion euros ($3.2 billion) for 24 aircraft. The French offers included a full weapons suite (MICA air-to-air missiles and AASM laser-guided bombs) as well as an extensive ground environment, that Morocco will have to buy separately for the F-16s.)"
The F-16s are going to cost them more, overall? So why didn't they just go with the Rafale? And yes, I did forget about the Libyan Rafale sale. Oops on my part.
DEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4450 posts, RR: 1 Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4445 times:
Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 3): The F-16s are going to cost them more, overall? So why didn't they just go with the Rafale?
Not exactly - it's $3.2B for 24 Rafales including weapons vs. $2.6B for 24 Falcons inclusive of 24 T-6B Texans. Deducting the $200M for the trainers, there's still $800M difference from Dassault's bid for the F-16s' weapons fit. Perhaps, it all boils down to the ancilliary and financing packages offered?
This raises another question. Is there any ordnance at all in the Moroccan Air Force's current inventory which they could adapt for use on the Block 50/52s?
Marcus From Mexico, joined Apr 2001, 1726 posts, RR: 2 Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4408 times:
Looking at the pictures of the F-16's with the conformal fuel tanks.......isn't it dangerous on having all that fuel sitting on top of that hot engine?....how did they solve that problem?
Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
Quote: "There is little transparency in these sorts of negotiations, so the public may never know the exact answer to Defense Aerospace's implicit questions. Few would dispute that the Rafale is a significantly better plane, offering Morocco a quality overmatch against neighboring MiG-29s and SU-30s that the F-16C/Ds cannot promise. The F-16s' potential winning edge thus comes down to some combination of the most likely explanations: price, network effects, strategic leverage... and pride.
The first thing any analysis must note is that a reasonably extensive support network is built into the American offer, and equivalent weapons like the AIM-120 AMRAAM and Paveway II/III kits are not included in the American sale, but are unlikely to add more than $200 million to the price of 24 aircraft. An American dollar discount of 45% can make that an attractive offer; indeed Morocco's 'equivalent choice' actually involves a 33% discount of 24 F-16C/Ds for the price of 18 Rafales, assuming a budget of around $2.6 billion for the aircraft and basic weapons. Depending on relative in-service rates, the difference in aircraft available for use at any given time could even widen. That isn't a small consideration, especially when the numbers neck down to under 24 aircraft, in order to cover an entire country against a potential opponent who can field over 60 aircraft of comparable or better quality.
The second factor to consider is 'network effects,' in which the value of a military platform increases with the number of associated choices in weapons et. al. F-16s do have the advantage of offering a much wider set of choices in weapons, targeting pods, engines, et. al. This expands Morocco's weaponry options to handle a variety of strategic choices, and avoids the Rafale's limiting choices of either supplier lock-in, or expensive integration projects. The F-16's network effects could well be attractive to a country who values that flexibility; and who understands that flyaway aircraft cost, like the cost of a new car from a dealer, is only the beginning of the real expenses of ownership.
The 3rd factor to consider is that the F-16 sale may also be set in the context of a wider security relationship with the USA, which would offset Morocco's quality differential in a different way."
Lumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 21 Reply 8, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4293 times:
Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 4): Not exactly - it's $3.2B for 24 Rafales including weapons vs. $2.6B for 24 Falcons inclusive of 24 T-6B Texans.
Wasn't the number of Rafales involved eighteen, not twenty-four?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
DEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4450 posts, RR: 1 Reply 9, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4286 times:
Quoting Lumberton (Reply 8): Wasn't the number of Rafales involved eighteen, not twenty-four?
From the excerpt in Reply 2, they submitted two offers, 18 Rafales for 1.8B euros ($2.6B) and 24 Rafales for 2.2B euros ($3.2B) - both including weapons fit - to counter the US offer.
DEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4450 posts, RR: 1 Reply 10, posted (5 years 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3760 times:
Update:
Just to clarify since the matter came up in an old "Rafale for Morocco" thread. Lockheed Martin has issued a press release announcing the initial award of $233.6M to start production for Morocco's Block 50/52 F-16C/D order.....
Quote: " FORT WORTH, Texas, June 6th, 2008 -- The United States government awarded Lockheed Martin [NYSE:LMT] an Undefinitized Contract Authorization (UCA) for the production of 24 Advanced F-16 Block 52 aircraft for Morocco, making the Kingdom of Morocco the 25th nation to select the F-16.
Morocco will acquire a Block 52 configuration of the F-16C/D aircraft tailored to meet the specific requirements of the Royal Moroccan Air Force (RMAF). The sale will include the aircraft, mission equipment and a support package provided by Lockheed Martin and other U.S. and international contractors. The new aircraft will supplement the RMAF’s existing fleet of fighter aircraft and will contribute to the upgrade and modernization of the RMAF.
Lockheed Martin is being awarded a contract totaling $233.6 million to begin production of 24 aircraft, along with associated support equipment, alternate mission equipment and other support elements for Morocco. This effort will support the Foreign Military Sales program for Morocco."
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