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Report: A400M - More Problems  
User currently offlineMham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3691 posts, RR: 3
Posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8818 times:

BERLIN (AFP) - The European aerospace giant EADS is facing new problems with its A400M military transport plane which could delay its maiden flight expected in July, a Germany weekly reported.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080105.../germanyfranceaerospacecompanyeads

130 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8831 times:



Quote:
The problems do not only concern the plane's engines but also the fuselage and the wings, the executive said.

Just that? From the title of this thread, I thought it was something potentially serious.  Big grin



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineDL021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8816 times:

The engines, fuselage and wings!?!?

WTF, over?

I can't imagine Airbus/EADS have this thing this completely screwed up. Are there any more articles anywhere that shed more light here? Anyone with inside info?

European and other Air Forces are flying very old airplanes right now and need to increase capacity as well as reliability adn safety.

I wonder if it's serious will that convince NATO to go ahead and purchase a C-17 fleet and some individual nations to buy some Herks?



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineEBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 8783 times:



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 1):
Quote:
The problems do not only concern the plane's engines but also the fuselage and the wings, the executive said.

Just that? From the title of this thread, I thought it was something potentially serious.

The article doesn't elaborate in the least. Design structural problems? Material deficiencies? I suspect the latter. I can't quite imagine Airbus messing up on something like load limits, etc.



Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently offlineMark5388916 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 8771 times:

Im sure Boeing is as happy as can be!


I Love ONT and SNA, the good So Cal Airports! URL Removed as required by mod
User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 8762 times:



Quoting Mark5388916 (Reply 4):
Im sure Boeing is as happy as can be!

Lockheed is probably happier.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineMark5388916 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 8621 times:

*smashes head on desk* yeah they would be...

Mark

EDIT: Spelling

[Edited 2008-01-05 19:03:08]


I Love ONT and SNA, the good So Cal Airports! URL Removed as required by mod
User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 19
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 8466 times:



Quoting DL021 (Reply 2):
I can't imagine Airbus/EADS have this thing this completely screwed up.

I can. Wouldn't be the first time...

Quoting DL021 (Reply 2):
European and other Air Forces are flying very old airplanes right now and need to increase capacity as well as reliability adn safety.

Nah. There's a far cheaper alternative: just scrap the current fleets without replacement and charter some Russian An-124s when you need them (and hope that you don't need them for something the Russians don't agree with).
That's what several countries are looking at as a cheap alternative.



I wish I were flying
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7087 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 8443 times:



Quoting Mark5388916 (Reply 4):
Im sure Boeing is as happy as can be!



Quoting Jwenting (Reply 7):
Nah. There's a far cheaper alternative: just scrap the current fleets without replacement and charter some Russian An-124s when you need them (and hope that you don't need them for something the Russians don't agree with).
That's what several countries are looking at as a cheap alternative.

From my point of view the German goverment has never learned instead of a midlife replacement they fly their
helicopters and airplanes as long as possible and wait very long until they finally decide on a replacement which usually comes 10-15 years too late. Some of the Bell Uh 1Ds and Transalls should have been replaced with modern equipment 10 years ago.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 8419 times:

Well so far EADS hasn't publicly acknowledged the extent of these alleged problems--"alleged" as in they haven't been confirmed.

But...if they are serious, will the German Air Force require interim lift until significant numbers of A400s are fielded? Leasing is a possibility, as is ad hoc contracting. I'm not holding out hope that any C-17s will be purchases as that could lead to a re-examining of the program. I think Jwenting makes a valid point here:

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 7):
charter some Russian An-124s when you need them (and hope that you don't need them for something the Russians don't agree with).




"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineDYflyer From Norway, joined May 2006, 676 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 8376 times:



Quoting Columba (Reply 8):
Quoting Jwenting (Reply 7):Nah. There's a far cheaper alternative: just scrap the current fleets without replacement and charter some Russian An-124s when you need them (and hope that you don't need them for something the Russians don't agree with).
That's what several countries are looking at as a cheap alternative.

From my point of view the German goverment has never learned instead of a midlife replacement they fly their
helicopters and airplanes as long as possible and wait very long until they finally decide on a replacement which usually comes 10-15 years too late. Some of the Bell Uh 1Ds and Transalls should have been replaced with modern equipment 10 years ago.

That is the Norwegian way. We have done it with the choppers. The Orions are now going on a life-extension program. The decision on new fighters are overdue. And we did it with the Herc, resulting in us relying on charted AN-124s and IL-76s until the new Hercs are arriving.



Life is like a book. If you don't travel, you only read one page.
User currently offlineEBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 8372 times:



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 9):
Well so far EADS hasn't publicly acknowledged the extent of these alleged problems--"alleged" as in they haven't been confirmed.

I thought an EADS spokesman was quoted in the article as commenting that these problems do exist. What he didn't do was elaborate on the extent of the problems.



Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31237 posts, RR: 85
Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 8372 times:
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Quoting Mark5388916 (Reply 4):
I'm sure Boeing is as happy as can be!



Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 5):
Lockheed is probably happier.

Since the A400M nicely slots in between the C-17 and the C-130, I expect both would be pleased since both would benefit from a hypothetical cancellation of the A400M program or purchase.


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7087 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 8322 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 12):
Since the A400M nicely slots in between the C-17 and the C-130, I expect both would be pleased since both would benefit from a hypothetical cancellation of the A400M program or purchase.

As much I would hope for either the C17 or the C130J I don´t believe this will happen. They will fly the C160 until it falls apart and rely on chartered An124s and the A310s.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineDL767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 8271 times:

So wings, engines, and fuselage? That kind of sounds like the entire plane.... Does that mean a total redesign or what. It sounds kind of funny to say there is a problem with pretty much the entire plane

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31237 posts, RR: 85
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 8271 times:
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Quoting DL767captain (Reply 14):
So wings, engines, and fuselage? That kind of sounds like the entire plane...Does that mean a total redesign or what. It sounds kind of funny to say there is a problem with pretty much the entire plane.

The A400M is a major new exercise for Airbus. Unexpected problems and delays are not surprising in such a case.

Ask Boeing, Lockheed-Martin, Northrup-Grumman, Eurofighter, Eurocopter, Panavia, Tuoplev, Mikoyan, etc. Big grin


User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 8266 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 12):
Since the A400M nicely slots in between the C-17 and the C-130, I expect both would be pleased since both would benefit from a hypothetical cancellation of the A400M program or purchase.

However, the A400M is targeted more at the C-130, both being turboprops. Plus, I wonder if some of the European customers who might think they have a critical need for transport aircraft, would rather buy from Lockheed rather than Boeing.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineTexL1649 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 298 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 8182 times:

Good to know the empennage and landing gear are on track for a roll out though.

I'll just state the obvious; before the PR/spin begins they should just offer the Antonov folks a nice fair price to certificate and start producing the -70. Force the disgraced engineers to move to the Ukraine to learn how it is done.


User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4376 posts, RR: 28
Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 8106 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 15):
The A400M is a major new exercise for Airbus. Unexpected problems and delays are not surprising in such a case.

 checkmark 

However, when was the last time any manufacturer had a "problem" with all the major components of a new model? In all fairness, though, until EADS comes out with a more detailed explanation, we're all just speculating here. And I can't believe there would be a problem with all the major components. While it may be a new exercise for Airbus, this is not the first time they are building a sophisticated airplane. My guess would be there's a single problem that's affecting the wings and fuselage. Perhaps something related to the engines, which are already problem plagued?



My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4376 posts, RR: 28
Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 7910 times:

AP is reporting that EADS is denying the reported delays, with Gallois saying:

Quote:
"We have made no new evaluation since the original one which led us to predict a 6 to 12 month delay," Gallois said at a defence industry event near Paris.

"I said that the first (A400M) flight would be in the summer and I continue to say that,"

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/200801...-airbus-a400m-germany-d1a0d5d.html

I suppose we could split hairs and point out that summer doesn't end until September 21. He also left a convenient "out" by saying no new evaluation has been performed.



My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12171 posts, RR: 51
Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 7810 times:



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 19):
AP is reporting that EADS is denying the reported delays

Gee, isn't that what they said with the A-380 program?  Yeah sure


User currently offlineF27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7708 times:



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 20):
Gee, isn't that what they said with the A-380 program?

almost every new aircraft has it's developement problems..

Hacking into the flight control system of a 787 with your PDA anyone??


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12171 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 7560 times:



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 21):
Hacking into the flight control system of a 787 with your PDA anyone??

I'd like to meet the computer geek that can do that.  Wow!


User currently offlineMichlis From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 737 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 7546 times:



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 22):
I'd like to meet the computer geek that can do that.

As would the FAA, the FBI, and several other of the alphabet people.  Smile



If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the outcome of a hundred battles.
User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4376 posts, RR: 28
Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 7533 times:



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 21):
Hacking into the flight control system of a 787 with your PDA anyone??

Cute. But I wouldn't necessarily call that particular issue a "problem". It's more on the order of addressing the results of a "gap analysis" (i.e., "provide more information to ensure this issue can't occur").

Now, if the 787's wing snaps at 147% of design failure, then I'd say there's a problem.  Wink



My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
25 Post contains images F27Friendship : you'de be surprised. If there is a possiblity, there's a geek out there that could exploit it. the FAA is worried enough anyway nice snap back at the
26 Post contains images KC135TopBoom : Or the most derded of all the alphabet soup people.........the IRS Not if we build it in France What would that be? More B-787s in airline service at
27 Post contains links DEVILFISH : Not only that. Flightglobal reports that the first A400M is to undergo ground testing (without the engines, of course). Pictures here..... http://www
28 KC135TopBoom : " target=_blank>http://www.flightglobal.com/articles....html Actually, she is looking good. The artical mentions "load testing" usually that comes la
29 CTR : Actually, she looks about one year from first flight. Bolting the wing to the fuselage used to be a milestone. But with modern aircraft, wiring, avio
30 Texl1649 : Based on EADS A-400 track record, I'd guess November 2009 is a good hope.
31 DL021 : Trouble is that for tactical transport you can't rely on charter aircraft which can be denied to you by the owners for political reasons or for simpl
32 Post contains images F27Friendship : you just watch your local news service carefully and see if they make their planned first flight date not to mention first delivery.
33 Post contains images KC135TopBoom : It was for both the A-380 and B-787, so, have the wings on the A-400 been bolted on, or are they just sitting up there? Don't forget the rivets.
34 CTR : I can't tell if you unfamiliar with the construction of modern aircraft, or are you trying to be funny No, bolting a wing on a modern aircraft curren
35 Ruscoe : Since the A400 was designed about the same time as the 380, could it have the same incompatability problems the 380 experienced between different CAD
36 RedFlyer : I think, although I may be wrong, that the A400 design was frozen sometime in 2005 (that is when I recall reading something to that effect). That is
37 KC135TopBoom : That is what EADS/Airbus says the problems are. Until something shows up that adds creditable information, that is really all we have.
38 Post contains images Astuteman : People making throwaway comments like this regarding the 787 programme are (rightly) getting flamed for it. Cheap shot (IMO ) Two cheap shots for the
39 Post contains links Zeke : Just have a look at www.flightglobal.com and www.airbusmilitary.com, they have good info available like : from www.airbusmilitary.com "the first comp
40 KC135TopBoom : At the Airbus press conference today, the A-400M program is "delayed, 6-12 months".
41 Zeke : Is this a new delay, or the one that had previously been announced ? I didn't catch all of it, the questions I heard seemed to think it may have been
42 KC135TopBoom : That's what I think it is, just a confirmation of what we already knew. Tom did say the engines are the biggest delay, and there is a "wire problem".
43 Zeke : Well that has been the case since the initial ground runs made them go back and redesign some bits, prevented the flight testing until the design was
44 KC135TopBoom : Do you know when the structual test airframe will be completed? I have not scene anything written about it. That frame is just as important to the te
45 Post contains links Zeke : "Europe's Airbus Military A400M programme has entered 2008 on a positive note, with ground system and load testing having commenced at EADS Casa's Se
46 Dougloid : Judging by what we've seen so far there's a lot of what we used to call 'visual progress' going on. Simply stated, developing a new, special purpose e
47 Zeke : But didn't P&W and Europrop both use an existing engine design to build on ? Neither was clean sheet (?)
48 F27Friendship : did you have a good laugh today when you watched the news?
49 DL021 : I'm not him but I'll remind people that when Allison, who've been building airplane engines for over 60 years and turboprop engines on the Herk when
50 Dougloid : S'fars' I know the PW product was going to be a derivative of an existing P&W engine but the Europrop engine is a clean sheet design. Of course RR ha
51 Post contains links Lumberton : A400M To Fly Without Certified Engine
52 Post contains images R2rho : It seems, also from statements by Enders & Gallois, that the A400M will fly in the summer no matter what, even if it's for a short go-around in SVQ.
53 Post contains links and images Zeke : Getting closer November More recent from http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ed-to-enter-vibration-testing.html "The first flight test example of t
54 Post contains images DEVILFISH : A bit of irony in that the engine will be flight-tested on their much-derided Hercules and aid in getting the A400M airborne at last.
55 R2rho : Thanks for the photos, Zeke! Once we see the TP400 fully mounted on the Herc along with the other engines, we will begin to realize the actual size o
56 Post contains links Keesje : First A400M Flight Likely In July 08 SINGAPORE -(Dow Jones)- Airbus' military arm Wednesday said the first flight of its much trumpeted A400M militar
57 KC135TopBoom : From the pictures, it looks like the test engine (#2 position) and propeller, is mounted a little further forward of the normal engines #1, 3, & 4 po
58 Post contains images Scouseflyer : It is ironic I was just thinking that the A400M was looking exactly like a Herc Those props are MASSIVE!
59 Zeke : Dont think so, the TP400 engine is about 3.5 m long.
60 KC135TopBoom : That explains why the engine/prop look like they are mounted more forward on the C-130 wing.
61 Zeke : Bit over 208" in diameter (5.3m), about 4' bigger than a C130
62 Scouseflyer : Thanks, that's nearly as big as a 787 fuse (5.7m)!
63 Post contains images Baroque : But the difference is the prop goes round and round after it is made and the 787 fuse goes round and round to get made. Other than that there are man
64 MD-90 : WOW that prop is enormous and has a huge surface area. I wonder if it's the most surface area of any aircraft prop ever manufactured (excepting counte
65 Columba : As much as an irony as a Boeing was used to fly Airbus parts around for almost two decades.
66 F27Friendship : just as ironic that the whole Boeing product line can be traced back to the Me-262..
67 A350 : They should have gone for a purchase of An-124s from the first moment, plus a license to produce spare parts within the EU. Period. That's what we act
68 Post contains images RedFlyer : Or that the Me-262 itself can be traced back to the Wright Flyer.
69 Post contains links Columba : ...and the Wright Flyer can be traced back to Otto Lillienthal (Otto Lilienthal (23 May 1848 – 10 August 1896), the German "Glider King," was a pio
70 TheSonntag : Come on, people, this leads to nothing. Try to discuss this seriously.
71 ZANL188 : If the test prop overlaps the outboard prop (as you suggest), there will certainly be an interference concern of some sort as the #1 prop will be fly
72 Post contains images Boeing4ever : You wouldn't get that license. A400M is a "smart" choice to go with at this point. We still don't know which way Ukraine will swing in regards to EU
73 Post contains images RedFlyer : And Lillienthal simply advanced on the ground work laid down by George Cayley, considered by many to be the father of aerodynamics. How far back do y
74 F27Friendship : your point does not hold. It is evident that swept wings, podded engines (basically the way all modern airliners look today) are derived from the 707
75 USAF336TFS : Well, yes and no. Many, myself included, trace the shape of todays aircraft back to the B-47 Stratojet. In my mind, one of the most beautiful aircraf
76 Post contains images Columba : I already did take it farther: P.S. I am a bit biased on Lilienthal though, I live not very far from the place where he did his flying tests and cras
77 Agill : Is it common to has such a short time between flight test of the engine and actualy flight of the airplane. I mean this is just 4 months, or am I miss
78 Baroque : True Sonntag, but at least that excursion had the merit of disctinct wit and good temper. Dunno why the US had to visit Göttingen when they shipped
79 Post contains images F27Friendship : that is exactly what I have written
80 Post contains images USAF336TFS : Teasing ya buddy... It too ya long enough to catch on!
81 Post contains images Columba : Well some fun and teasing has to be allowed otherwise it would be pretty boring here Also it was noticable that Redflyer,F27Friendship and I did not
82 Dougloid : It's possible that the flight test sequence will go exactly as planned, there will be no service bulletins, unexpected beefups or retrofits required,
83 Spacepope : And why not? Other FSU aircraft are built in their entirety in other countries (China, India, Iran). If the ADB had an option of churning out 30 more
84 Post contains images Boeing4ever : China, India, Iran. They're not exactly in the same club as France, UK, Germany, Spain, Poland, Italy, Ireland, etc. There are ever sharper idealogic
85 Post contains images F27Friendship : owkay! actually, I was being serious. You should read the book "road to 707"
86 Post contains links Lumberton : This report says EADS wants to change it's fixed price contracts on the A400 to curb losses. If true, it would take, as a minimum, the governments of
87 Post contains links Zeke : Dont think so, as long as they are consistent with what they do, i.e. make the changes available to all parties. The WTO agreement that covers this h
88 KC135TopBoom : This is possible, as EADS could tell Spain, Germany, France, and England, "we may have to lay off Airbus employees in your country". But, what is mos
89 F27Friendship : of course not. This is just a supplier-customer relation. Things went wrong and unforseen costs came up. This happens everyday in every field of buss
90 Zeke : They are already laying off thousands as part of power8. Please provide a source, or retract your comment. I have given you the link to the WTO agree
91 Baroque : Relax Zeke, if he wants to go that way, then all of Boeing and Lockheed products that I can think of have had a whopping subsidy. I am staying away f
92 Post contains images Zeke : Okay, having an O/D on chill pills.
93 Post contains links N1786b : Since when are military contracts covered by the WTO? http://ec.europa.eu/trade/issues/sectoral/gov_proc/pr100403_en.htm Government Procurement The W
94 XT6Wagon : No actualy you can't but thanks for playing.
95 F27Friendship : yeah lol, now that's a convincing post. I suggest you go read that book I mentioned..
96 Dougloid : Really?
97 Post contains links XT6Wagon : ZOMG ITS A ME262 CLONE http://www.aviation-history.com/boeing/314.html Lets face it, Boeing was doing its thing long before the 262, and no amount of
98 Baroque : Switch to channel I for irony. AFAIK, the A400M is also a military project. But the point still stands. IF the A400M funding was "WTOable" then you c
99 F27Friendship : right, and that big flying boat has anything to do with it. It's clear to me you do not understand anything about aerodynamics. I won't put any more
100 XT6Wagon : The ME262 was hardly unique in any particular attribute. PERIOD. And its very clear to anyone who knows anything that the design of a fighter such as
101 SEPilot : As to the ME262/B-47 debate, it is fact that Boeing was given access to the research that the Germans had done, including the swept wing. The podded e
102 Baroque : Pods do not seem to have an especially German history although the Me262 engines are definitely below the wings (as were those of the Ar234) and not
103 RedFlyer : Depends on what you mean by "directly developed". As far as I'm aware, the 707, B-47 and Me-262 have one similarity (besides the fact that they're al
104 Dougloid : You're the guy who started this Me262 the father of the B47 silliness. Now whyncha put up yer dukes and show-us-the-money instead of talking out yer
105 Post contains links F27Friendship : Thanks to SEPilot and Baroque in pointing our ignorant friend in the right direction. It was indeed Büsemann who invented the Swept Wing. What you wo
106 SEPilot : True, I had forgotten that. However that is not what led Boeing to the pods on the B-47. They did extensive wind tunnel tests on every configuration
107 F27Friendship : ah come one dude.. I already referred to Büsemann and the book "road to 707" what do you expect more? next thing you are going to decline that von B
108 TheSonntag : B/S. First jet fighter built in large quantities. Only Jet fighter that saw reasonable combat in WW2, much more modern compared to Gloster Meteor, fa
109 RedFlyer : Yes, I know. I wasn't trying to contradict or one-up anything you said (my apologies if I came across that way). I was just trying to show that some
110 Post contains links Dougloid : Sorry, dude. It had wings and jet engines. That's about as far as the comparison can be stretched. Busemann may have proposed the swept wing but mill
111 SEPilot : Hey, I appreciate the info. I in no way took it as critical. I just had never thought of it, but since you brought it up it's likely that one of the
112 Post contains images TheSonntag : As much as I respect you for your usually great and objective postings, I do not agree with you on these points: "Too little too late, ineffective be
113 Scouseflyer : I work in IT and one of the things that we always say at the begining of a project in something along the lines of: "It's better to be late and right
114 F27Friendship : really dude. You claim to be an expert on aeronautics, yet you dont have the faintest understanding of aerodynamics and aeronautical history so it se
115 SEPilot : German engineers are (and were) human beings like the rest of us. As I understand it the ME-262 airframe was designed for a lighter engine than was e
116 XT6Wagon : The areodynamic effects of swept wing were known in america prior to the end of WWII, and didn't not originate in germany though the research found i
117 Dougloid : Where'd you get this 'expert on aeronautics' thing homes? I don't see you being any more than a breath of swamp gas, but that's just me. I could be w
118 Post contains images Dougloid : You and others were the ones who raised the subject of what a great freaking achievement the 262 was. Do you really think you can divorce that from t
119 F27Friendship : this is the today accepted version of the story, however if you look at the flaps and slats you could argue that they would not have been nicely inte
120 TheSonntag : Nor was the V2. Still it is considered to be one of the most revolutionary designs of its time. Mass production is not the only measure to evaluate h
121 Post contains images Revelation : That's a good thing, given who was producing the V2, and the conditions under which they were producing them.
122 Post contains links NorCal : Given the delays and the cost overruns, maybe some countries should consider switching to an already proven airlifter..... [img] http://www.sethwhite.
123 TheSonntag : I agree 100%. Please do not misunderstand my previous postings as a justification of slave labour or the Nazi regieme, which they absolutely are not,
124 Dougloid : You're quite mistaken. You should stay on task instead of hijacking this thread like you did.
125 Post contains images Astuteman : Shades of the USAF tanker debate on right-size here....... Regards
126 SEPilot : As one who has intimate personal history with the regime you are citing (see my post #101) yes I can divorce the technical accomplishments that were
127 Post contains images NorCal : According to some bigger is always better
128 Post contains images Astuteman : My missus being one.... Rgds
129 Dougloid : Well, there's a whopper of an ethical issue embedded in what you're talking about. In a lot of cases engineers and scientists do not confront the imp
130 Srbmod : If you want to talk about the ME-262, start a thread on it instead of hijacking another thread. As a result of this and a few other off-topic posts, t
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