Manfredj From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1132 posts, RR: 0 Posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10170 times:
Hey everyone, I was browsing through the 747-800 orders and came across 2 private orders. Is it possible that these are slated to become Air Force One aircraft? The 200's are getting on in age, and I'm sure the U.S. government would love to help Boeing out in sparking 747NG orders. The last question like this came up in the forums 5 years ago, and speculation suggested the 747-400.
Side question, were the current Air Force One aircraft used by another carrier before their service with the President?
Pnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 1891 posts, RR: 9 Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10149 times:
The current Air Force Ones were newbuilds. They are so customized that the bare frame is about the only thing that is standard. It was delivered green and then customized out the wazoo from there. The secret service had people who shaddowed the construction from word go at every step. They are not going to be replaced anytime soon because there is no where near the number of cycles that the airframe can handle. It is so babied and over serviced every part is probably like brand new. I can see various upgrades happening that we may or may not even know about. These planes despite all the wishes are not going anywhere for a long time. Watch for a 787 to eventually replace the 757's but even then it won't happen really soon.
Those two frames are for business jets. Likely one Arab and one Russian.
Caribb From Canada, joined Nov 1999, 1600 posts, RR: 11 Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10053 times:
If I recall correctly from memory there is a stipulation that mandates an Air Force One selection to be a plane that's been in commerical service for at least 5 years (or some specified number of years).. which is why they chose the 747-200 variant over the then existing -400 model which had just come onto the market when they were shopping for the 707 replacement. Also, a 777 would now be a consideration as well I guess... or the 787-10 if that's out by then and in service long enough. Interesting to think what might be many years down the road.
Cactus742 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 219 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10000 times:
I imagine that since Air Force One does not carry anywhere near capacity for a 742 that it has a much longer range than typical 742s. Does anyone know how far AF1 can actually fly?
Do not take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive.
AsstChiefMark From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 9983 times:
Quoting Manfredj (Thread starter): Is it possible that these are slated to become Air Force One aircraft?
Just because a new-fangled version of something comes out doesn't make the previous versions pieces of useless crap.
There's no need to get a new airframe for an executive aircraft that has all the latest tech goodies and gadgets. Expect to see the existing VC-25A aircraft (what most people incorrectly call "Air Force One") in executive service for at least another 20 years.
PWM2TXLHopper From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1182 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 9981 times:
Quoting Manfredj (Thread starter): Hey everyone, I was browsing through the 747-800 orders and came across 2 private orders. Is it possible that these are slated to become Air Force One aircraft? The 200's are getting on in age, and I'm sure the U.S. government would love to help Boeing out in sparking 747NG orders. The last question like this came up in the forums 5 years ago, and speculation suggested the 747-400.
Side question, were the current Air Force One aircraft used by another carrier before their service with the President?
I'm getting more tired of this subject coming up than I am with questions about NW DC-9's.
No, these aren't aircraft destined to be delivered to the Air Force as SAM aircraft! The current two widebodies in this squadron that are used as Air Force One were both built for the Air Force, and delivered new in 1990 while George Bush Sr. was in office. Eighteen years ago isn't yesterday, but it's not really that long ago either. Especially for a meticulously maintained aircraft with the low hours of these airframes. You've got to figure how much do they actually fly? Probably less then 20 hours per week most of the time? Compare that to a civilian 747.. One of those could log that many hours in two days or less, and most of those the early airline 747-400's are still going strong!
The two current widebodies used as Air Force One have plenty of life left in them. Probably at least 10-15 years. Look how long the 707 executive aircraft remained in service with the Air Force. They were flying for close to forty years before retirement, right up unti the current Bush administrations early years!
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 20630 posts, RR: 62 Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 9903 times:
Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 1): They are not going to be replaced anytime soon because there is no where near the number of cycles that the airframe can handle.
A.net myth number #453: Airforce One replacement is tied to cycles like commercial aircraft, and the government does care how old it is.
By the time 748s would be deliverable as AF1 planes (2 years or so after they come from Boeing) the 742s would be older than the AF1 they replaced when they replaced it. 20 years is a long time for a plane to be the primary AF1 aircraft.
But age alone doesn't dictate the need for a new jet, technological advances do. Could they take each 742 out of service for 12-24 months and retrofit it as a 21st centery jet? Probably, but why? They'll get 748s, put in new technology from the start, transfer interior fittings that are still up to snuff, and move on. The 742Bs may be pressed into service in another role at that point.
Expect lame duck Bush to place the order this year, as he would not be the beneficiary of the jets, a Democrat prez may, so there won't be objections.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
Manfredj From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1132 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9736 times:
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7): A.net myth number #453: Airforce One replacement is tied to cycles like commercial aircraft, and the government does care how old it is.
Agreed.
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7): Expect lame duck Bush to place the order this year, as he would not be the beneficiary of the jets, a Democrat prez may, so there won't be objections.
Makes even more sense. I would say the probability of replacing "Air Force One" (VC-125A or 92-9000 or 82-8000 or 23825/685 or 23824/679).....sorry it's Air Force One to the patriotic ones ASSTCHIEF, lies more in the mentaility of the current president rather than "cycles or hours flown." Bush is a big spender, and if I were a betting man, that holds more clout for an argument of replacement than usage.
Hiflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2043 posts, RR: 4 Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9600 times:
Remember why AF1 was ordered as a 200 and not a 400...which was available then. Built green as either the end of the line or close to it for the classics and flown to Boeing Military in Wichita for buildout.
As I recall ElectroMagnetic Pulse....the Air Force did not want a fly by wire bird for the President back then. Now, hardening against such attacks surely has gotten better and every new bird the military buys is FBW but with midair refueling and such would it make sense to go to a more economical/slower wing and possibly give up some EMP protection for the President?
Back in the late 80's there was also a lot of discussion about the 400 wingspan keeping the President out of certain airports....now long since resolved by commercial traffic and the intro of the 757 into the VIP fleet.
FlagshipAZ From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3419 posts, RR: 18 Reply 10, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 9484 times:
Not exactly correct. Both VC-25As can fly continually for 72 hours (with aerial refueling)
straight before the 4 GE engines start to seizes. The lubricates are too thin after that point
and needs replacing. I'm reasonably certain the aircraft carries it own lubricates reserves,
but after 3 days of non-stop flying, any aircraft (as well the passengers) has it limits.
Both VC-25As will be the primary presidential transport for many years to come yet.
No replacement aircraft will be ordered in the foreseeable future...certainly not by lame
duck Bush. Only the USAF & the Pentagon (with Congress's consent) has that authority.
Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 23614 posts, RR: 79 Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9473 times:
Quoting Manfredj (Thread starter): Hey everyone, I was browsing through the 747-800 orders and came across 2 private orders. Is it possible that these are slated to become Air Force One aircraft?
No, for a number of reasons:
The USAF does not UFO an order. It would be shown as the USAF as the VC-25 and E-4 orders were.
Any funding to source a new platform to be Air Force One would be public knowledge due to being a line-item in a Defense Authorization bill.
The USAF has put in a formal RFP to Airbus for the A380 Flying Palace to fill the role, so they can't have chosen the 747-8I, much less placed an order.
RedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4078 posts, RR: 32 Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 9367 times:
Quoting Caribb (Reply 2): which is why they chose the 747-200 variant over the then existing -400 model which had just come onto the market when they were shopping for the 707 replacement.
I could be wrong, but I seem to recall the original appropriation for the current VC-25's were authorized back in 1985, which would have been before the 747-400 was offered by Boeing.
Quoting Caribb (Reply 2): Also, a 777 would now be a consideration as well I guess
Personally, I think a slightly smaller plane such as the 777 would be better suited. Definitely more efficient as well as more practical (being able to fly into and out of smaller and more austere fields than those required by a 747).
Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 9): As I recall ElectroMagnetic Pulse....the Air Force did not want a fly by wire bird for the President back then.
I've heard this before and while it might have been a possible consideration, I think the truth lies in the fact that no aircraft of the size the USAF was looking for had FBW technology back in the late 80's. There was no option for FBW back then on a widebody and the only civilian plane on the horizon was the forthcoming A320 and I doubt it would have suited the Prez's needs sufficiently as the primary.
LimaNiner From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 364 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9339 times:
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7): Expect lame duck Bush to place the order this year,
Unlike what many people like to imply, the President of the United States is not the King of the United States.
Money is spent by the Congress (House of Representatives and the Senate), and is approved by the President. Therefore, "lame duck Bush" (which is what he is) doesn't order anything -- he approves orders placed by the Congress.
Columba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 6505 posts, RR: 5 Reply 14, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 9280 times:
Quoting Manfredj (Thread starter): Is it possible that these are slated to become Air Force One aircraft?
I doubt so, the orders are two years old and I doubt that the goverment could keep them a secret for so long without getting trouble with the budget comittee.
Quoting Stitch (Reply 11): * The USAF has put in a formal RFP to Airbus for the A380 Flying Palace to fill the role, so they can't have chosen the 747-8I, much less placed an order.
Also for the A340-600
Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans - John Lennon
Wvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 499 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 9278 times:
Quoting Manfredj (Thread starter): Hey everyone, I was browsing through the 747-800 orders and came across 2 private orders. Is it possible that these are slated to become Air Force One aircraft? The 200's are getting on in age, and I'm sure the U.S. government would love to help Boeing out in sparking 747NG orders. The last question like this came up in the forums 5 years ago, and speculation suggested the 747-400.
Side question, were the current Air Force One aircraft used by another carrier before their service with the President?
The current Airforce Ones will not need replaced for years. They are the best maintained aircraft in the world bar none. The 2 private orders are probbly for someone or something else.
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 23614 posts, RR: 79 Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 9213 times:
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 23614 posts, RR: 79 Reply 18, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 9130 times:
Quoting Columba (Reply 17): That was written in the flight global article about the RFP.
DL767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 9055 times:
Quoting Manfredj (Thread starter): Hey everyone, I was browsing through the 747-800 orders and came across 2 private orders. Is it possible that these are slated to become Air Force One aircraft? The 200's are getting on in age, and I'm sure the U.S. government would love to help Boeing out in sparking 747NG orders. The last question like this came up in the forums 5 years ago, and speculation suggested the 747-400.
Side question, were the current Air Force One aircraft used by another carrier before their service with the President?
I made a thread about this not too long ago, there were enough 748i orders to replace the Air force ones and the E-4Bs. Everyone shot me down saying the current planes were still young. But it took a long time for the current AF1 to be retrofitted for the president, and since the first delivery of any of the 748s is 2010 it definately could be, but not many others agree with me
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 23614 posts, RR: 79 Reply 20, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8989 times:
The reason I do not agree with you is because such purchases would not be UFOs because a Special Air Mission airframe purchase is not a "black program" kept out of the public knowledge. If the USAF is buying 747-8Is, we'd know about it because the local papers here in Seattle would have reported it when our Congresscritters crowed about voting for it.
Also, the USAF has already noted that the missions of the E-4B are being transferred to the USN's E-6 TACAMO aircraft. If the E-4B remain in service, they will be attached to FEMA and not the USAF (though the USAF will operate them for FEMA).
LMAO!! That's funny. Those are probably the two best cared for airplanes in the world. If they aren't in service they are sitting in a hangar with some airman polishing the skin with a cloth diaper.
Quoting Manfredj (Thread starter): Side question, were the current Air Force One aircraft used by another carrier before their service with the President?
No.. The current AF1 airplanes are not even a 747-200. They are a 747-200 body, -300 wings and -400 engines. There is not another airplane like them in the world.
I really wish people would stop beating this dead horse. The first pilot of the next generation AF1 probably hasn't even been born yet. Hell, his (or her) mother is at most in middle school.
RedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4078 posts, RR: 32 Reply 23, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 8757 times:
Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 21): LMAO!! That's funny. Those are probably the two best cared for airplanes in the world. If they aren't in service they are sitting in a hangar with some airman polishing the skin with a cloth diaper.
So does that mean if AF1 was a DC-3 that was the best cared for airplane in the world and was hand-polished with a diaper it would still suffice as the Presidential transport???
Regardless of how well-maintained the VC-25's are, the fact is they contain embedded technology that is over 20 years old. It's in the USAF's interests, as well as the White House's, and the Secret Service's, to make sure the Prez, whoever he or she is in the next decade or so, has a very modern and efficient mode of long-range transportation.
Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 21): No.. The current AF1 airplanes are not even a 747-200. They are a 747-200 body, -300 wings and -400 engines. There is not another airplane like them in the world.
Interesting. Boeing's website says it's a 747-200B:
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 23614 posts, RR: 79 Reply 24, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8727 times:
Quoting Columba (Reply 22): Never heard that -200 and -300 have different wings?
They do not. The 747-300 was a 747-200 with a 7m stretched upper deck. MTOWs and overall dimensions remained identical with the 747-200.
The VC-25 does have the General Electric CF6-80C2B1 engine, which was new for the 747-300 and replaced the CF6-50E2 found on the -200B. The CF6-80C2 is also found on the 747-400.
[Edited 2008-01-14 13:58:28]
25 RedFlyer: What I find interesting is that the -300 has a slightly higher cruise speed than the earlier versions with the classic uppder deck. As I understand i
26 XT6Wagon: Stich, I would typically agree with you that it would show up in normal budgets and paperwork... except for this Administration makes everything and a
27 Stitch: In theory, yes, however as you note - eventually the plane needs to go to Wichita to be outfitted and that process is going to take years, which give
28 CaptOveur: Right.. When the USAF buys an airplane they never upgrade the comm gear or anything else that gets dated rapidly. It is necessary to throw the entire
29 RedFlyer: First of all, I specifically used the term "embedded technology", which would exclude things such as comm gear that can be swapped out quickly as the
30 Stitch: I bet 82-8000's airframe looks better at 30 years then N107's looked at 3.
31 Dk1967: I bet they're actually Air Force Two's ... Dick's got some plane envy issues.
32 DEVILFISH: Here's something for everybody - enjoy..... New B-747-8BBJ Order? (by KC135TopBoom Jan 16 2008 in Civil Aviation)
33 BHMBAGLOCK: Here's an interesting article hinting around at something from the Wichita Eagle earlier this week: http://www.kansas.com/101/story/322736.html If som
34 Stitch: The KC-767ADV would have been assembled in PAE, so Wichita would have had a great deal less involvement with the KC-45A then they have with the curre
35 BHMBAGLOCK: I thought they were going to fly them to Wichita green and then do the tanker mods there.
36 Stitch: No. The 767 line would have been reconfigured to meet IATA requirements and the planes would have been built almost in their entirety in Building 40-
37 BHMBAGLOCK: In that case, I don't see the KS Congressional delegation getting terribly worked up about this. Thanks for the info.
38 Stitch: I have read they're annoyed, but not to the level Washington's is.
39 F9Animal: Very seriously doubt it. I hear they are looking at Antonov, or Mitsubishi.
40 Astuteman: So long as it could in-flight refuel.... Regards
41 KC135TopBoom: It was not a formal RFP for an A-380VIP and the A-380F. Both were just "informal inquires". The USAF has no program to replace the VC-25s, or the C-5
42 Max Q: The 747 400 is not a fly by wire aircraft.
43 Jetstar: From what I have read, although both VC-25’s have in-flight refueling capabilities, neither aircraft has actually been refueled in midair. The VC-2
44 RedFlyer: Or in the event the POTUS has to be kept away from ground facilities that might be a potential target for an attack since moving aerial targets are r
45 Flighty: The VC-25 in perfect condition should last about 35 years in service. Then it will be retired in perfect condition. So that is 17 years from now. Pers
46 Pnwtraveler: The last thing they care about on an aircraft that is flown relatively few hours is fuel burn though. Spending a hundred million plus to the get the a
47 Stitch: 28-000 spent a few months in PAE, and I expect it didn't take that long to just re-paint it, exacting as that paint job has to be (no "looks good from
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