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Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.  
User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3381 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

BERNE (AP)--The Swiss Federal Defense department has invited four airplane constructers, Boeing, Dassault, EADS and Gripen International to present offers by mid-May for the partial replacement of the country's Tiger fighter planes.

http://www.easybourse.com/Website/dy...hp?ISIN=NL0000235190&NewsID=375461

242 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4781 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 32767 times:


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Photo © David Ilott
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Photo © Tony Strother


Lockheed Martin not shortlisted? I would have thought their next generation F-16 a "natural" candidate and a good single-engine match to the Gripen.....

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/assets/10385.jpg

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_JAS-39N_Gripen_Drawing_lg.jpg

Maybe LM is pushing for the JSF. Or could this be more of the same, and just an "upsize" to the Super Bug?

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Photo © Frank Steinkohl




"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

This deal can easily be summed in just two words: Super Hornet

User currently offlineStoney From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 199 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 2):
This deal can easily be summed in just two words: Super Hornet

I don't really think so. Maybe the super hornet is too much of a plane for Switzerland right now in a situation where the main role of Swiss Air Force is policing the skies and not offering a complete air defense. It's about replacing the aging fleet of F-5s which consisted of 110 planes and are now down to less than 50 planes in service. Considering that there will surely be a referendum and a vote by the Swiss people, the budget will be limited, probably to about the same amount the purchase of the hornet was, meaning max 3 billion. So it's more a political question and a question which manufacturer offers the best deal for the Swiss Air Force to be able to fulfill it's role. Sometimes more planes, event though less capable, are worth more than a few machines which would be superior, but don't offer enough time on station in little numbers...

But in the end, it's only a political question which plane will be ordered and the Swiss people will have the last word if they want to approve the order.... That's the beauty of a direct political system...

Greetz
Stoney



BAZL - Bundesamt gegen Zivilluftfahrt - royally screwing around with swiss aviation
User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 775 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Replace F-5 with F-18 seems like a overkill for sure,F-16 ore Gripen would be the natural choice.

Some info on gripens homepage.

www.gripen.com



It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
User currently offlineEBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 4):
Replace F-5 with F-18 seems like a overkill for sure,F-16 ore Gripen would be the natural choice.

Some info on gripens homepage.

Typhoon and Rafale would be overkill as well. Gripen has grown increasingly popular over the years and it wouldn't come as any surprise to see the Swiss go the Gripen route. It's a shame there's no F-20 Tigershark to offer them now.



Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3381 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 5):
Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 4):
Replace F-5 with F-18 seems like a overkill for sure,F-16 ore Gripen would be the natural choice.

Some info on gripens homepage.

Typhoon and Rafale would be overkill as well.

Yes, it strikes me as strange that they should want to consider anything "above" F-16/Gripen. Why waste their own time doing this (as well as the manufacturers' time.)


User currently offlineBengan From Sweden, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 43 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting Art (Reply 6):
Why waste their own time doing this (as well as the manufacturers' time.)

Why not? Having more bidders at the table will push the price down.

/Bengt


User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 775 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting Bengan (Reply 7):
Why not? Having more bidders at the table will push the price down.

I think that these bidders play in two categories here,first you have Typhoon,Rafale and the F-18,and the second categories would be the F-16 and the Gripen....just for the country to decide what kind of fighter the want ore need.



It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
User currently offlineF27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 2):
This deal can easily be summed in just two words: Super Hornet

HAHAHA

The're not really happy with their current hornets.

BTW, phasing out the F-5 doesn't mean they will get an equally sized plane in return. It makes a lot of sense they will get a type which will also be able to replace the F-18 later on, meaning, buying in batches.

My bet is on the Typhoon and the Gripen


User currently offlineStoney From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 199 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 9):
The're not really happy with their current hornets.

Who said that? Would be the first time I heard this statement.

And FYI, the F-16 is no option, there won't even be a proposal with that aircraft....



BAZL - Bundesamt gegen Zivilluftfahrt - royally screwing around with swiss aviation
User currently offlineF27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting Stoney (Reply 10):
Who said that? Would be the first time I heard this statement.

it has something to do with buying the aircraft cheap (fly-away cost) and pay through your nose for everything else


User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 775 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting Stoney (Reply 10):
And FYI, the F-16 is no option, there won't even be a proposal with that aircraft....

Well,there is ore was anyway about 80 F-5 in Swiz Airforce.....will another fighter replace every unit almost everything feels like a overkill,above that they also have 30+ of F-18,s......



It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3381 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

From the easybourse article:

"The DDPS could possibly make an armament program valued at approximately CHF2.2 billion available by 2010 for the purchase of the jets and the necessary PC-21 training aircraft."

US$1=CHF1.1, so possibly a budget of about US$2 billion to replace the F-5's.

From what I have read on a number of sites, the requirement is for air defence. I have also read that the Super Hornet is not under consideration, so it looks like the F-15, Rafale, Typhoon and Gripen are under consideration.

Given the size of the country - perhaps 15 min maximum to take off and fly from one end of the country to the other - I don't see that range is of any relevance. Given the mooted budget, it appears there is only enough money to buy Gripen unless the Swiss Air Force would be prepared to have one very small squadron of F-15/Rafale/Typhoon. Back of envelope calculation for F-15/Rafale/Typhoon: 2 x trainer @US$200 million + 8 x fighter @ US$200 million = US$2 billion

[Edited 2008-01-19 04:56:40]

User currently offlineStoney From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 199 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 11):
it has something to do with buying the aircraft cheap (fly-away cost) and pay through your nose for everything else

It's true that there are cost to upgrade or better said to keep the planes up to date practically yearly. I think next year there are like 500 million budgeted just for the hornets....

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 12):
Well,there is ore was anyway about 80 F-5 in Swiz Airforce.....will another fighter replace every unit almost everything feels like a overkill,above that they also have 30+ of F-18,s......

It will not be a one on one replacement. AFAIK the Swiss Air Force will try to get about 30 new planes, so they can keep their 6 squadrons of fighters, three hornet squadrons and three new ones. The trainers will not be in the same tranche of the budget, 6 are already bought and are being introduced right now.

BTW the RFP is only for the Typhoon, the Rafale, the Super Hornet and the Gripen, no F-16 and no F-15.....



BAZL - Bundesamt gegen Zivilluftfahrt - royally screwing around with swiss aviation
User currently offlinePetertenthije From Netherlands, joined Jul 2001, 3353 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:

Would it not be a closer match to replace the F-5 with something like the BAe Hawk or the Aero L-159?


Attamottamotta!
User currently offlineWvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 516 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

I would think that ordering a smaller number of F-18 Superhornets would more likley fit their system, yes I do think its too much of an aircraft for what they need but they already have several F-18C models, so cross training pilots would be minimal. Also the older F-18's they have now could take over the F-5's roll and leave the front line stuff up to the new superhornets. Just something to think about.

User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7058 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

The Swiss Air Force has two choices in my opinion:
1) Look for a real "Tiger" replacement which would only be the Gripen in size

or

2) Go for a multi-role aircraft that will replace both the Tiger and the Hornet in a few years, best choices here would be the Rafale or the Eurofighter. Since Austria and Germany have the Eurofighter a three nation deal on maintenance , training and parts might be a good sales argument by EADS.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineEBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 9):
My bet is on the Typhoon and the Gripen

Why not Rafale?



Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently offlineTancrede From Finland, joined May 2006, 245 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 28):
Why not Rafale?

I do agree with that question. Everybody is talking about the Gripen/superhornet and Typhoon, and even about others ruled out from the RFP, but no one mention the Rafale.
Please any opinion and estimation about the chances of the French fighter in this RFP would be welcome.  

[Edited 2008-01-23 11:49:50]

User currently offlineF27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 32767 times:

What counts for the hornet counts a bit for their mirage's as well.

User currently offlineSandroZRH From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 3428 posts, RR: 50
Reply 21, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting Stoney (Reply 3):
Considering that there will surely be a referendum and a vote by the Swiss people, the budget will be limited

Excellent point.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 9):
The're not really happy with their current hornets.

They're not indeed. Half of the fleet is constantly grounded due to technical issues, and the "cooperation" with the US hasn't exactly been what Switzerland expected it to be, hence i see very little chance for the Superhornet, needless to say it would be overkill anyway. And last but not least, it would make us even more dependant on the US's goodwill, which needs to be avoided.

Quoting Stoney (Reply 10):
Who said that? Would be the first time I heard this statement.

huh? It's a known and widely discussed fact that they're not happy with the Hornets. They are happy with the aircraft's performance in flight, but not so much with its reliability, which has been awful in the last couple of months to say the least, and as mentioned before, the cooperation with the US.

Personally, I'm hoping for the Gripen. A fighter fully capable to fulfill the Swiss air force's mission at relatively low cost built by a country that Switzerland has excellent relations with. Second on my list would be the Rafale. The Typhoon and the Superhornet would be too expensive and definately overkill.

People need to remember that it's not like Switzerland is going to war anytime soon. The Swiss Air Force's mission is a pure air-police mission over Swiss territory, and therefore we don't need an expensive totally state of the art fighter. Even the F5 is still very capable to fulfill the mission, the reason it will be replaced is purely its age, not its capabilities.


User currently offlineStoney From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 199 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 39):
People need to remember that it's not like Switzerland is going to war anytime soon. The Swiss Air Force's mission is a pure air-police mission over Swiss territory, and therefore we don't need an expensive totally state of the art fighter. Even the F5 is still very capable to fulfill the mission, the reason it will be replaced is purely its age, not its capabilities.

Well, the F-5s aren't capable of operating in all weather conditions, so they're not as capable as one would think. Another point is the electronic updates the Hornets received, giving them the ability to fulfill aspects like look-down capability, resulting in the fact that for example during WEF-style operations, less mobile radar stations on the ground etc are needed.
But I guess if the SAF didn't have the age problem with the tigers they would rather keep them in their present number as an add-on to the Hornet fleet than get a smaller number of replacements.

Even though a war isn't probable in the near future, never say never. Nobody knows, and it's easier to keep the knowledge and the capability on a minimum level, than to learn everything from scratch, when it probably would be too late anyway..

From my point of view it's not really important which plane is bought as a tiger replacement, because a huge part of that decision is political and you never know what or how our kindergarden, officially known as parliament, will decide, but rather that one plane is bought in sufficient numbers to give our Air Force enough means to do their job.



BAZL - Bundesamt gegen Zivilluftfahrt - royally screwing around with swiss aviation
User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3381 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 3 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

"Boeing had prepared to bid with the F/A-18E/F Block II Super Hornet, but withdrew after reviewing the contents of the request for proposal."

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...rnet-from-swiss-contract-race.html


User currently offlineStoney From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 199 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (6 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

working FlightGlobal article

Well, let the guessing begin: What could be the real reason behind this decision of boeing? What I heard was that the plane was too big to fit the infrastructure which was practically completely renewed for the hornet, but I don't know if that's true.
Another possibility I could imagine is that boeing doesn't think the 2.2b of this order is worth enough to really try selling stuff to Switzerland.

Anyway, I think the super hornet would have looked pretty cool flying around Switzerland, sad that it'll never get to that.

Official statement from the Swiss government



BAZL - Bundesamt gegen Zivilluftfahrt - royally screwing around with swiss aviation
25 AutoThrust : I also bet for the Gripen its a good allround plane at a affordable price. However the question will be how much air superiority do we want for the m
26 Art : Anyone heard if the remaining 3 constructors have presented their offers?
27 ArniePie : Maybe the biggest advantage the Gripen offers is its commonality with their F18 fighter. They basically use the same engine (the RM12 is in fact a dir
28 Post contains links TGIF : From Aviation Week: European Fighter Boom I find this especially interesting: "...Boeing withdrew the Super Hornet on the grounds that it exceeded th
29 SAS A340 : In July, Saab plans to show the plane in Switzerland. The Swiss military is about to purchase new aircraft and the Swiss are also interested in purcha
30 Post contains links DEVILFISH : Wary of a tight contest? This breaking news item from Defense-Aerospace says 33..... Swiss military ready to buy up to 33 of Saab Gripen's JAS fighte
31 Art : Perhaps I misread the article but I don't see any reference to 33.
32 DEVILFISH : It was in the red AFP headlines which disappear after a while. You'd see it if you do a search of the leader on the d-a site, or if you are a subscri
33 Post contains links Bengan : My guess is because they have already evaluated the F-16, it lost out to the F-18 in 1992. Todays news: Saab handed over their RFP proposal to Armasu
34 Post contains links Art : As an aside, Gripen has joined the other aircraft being evaluated as F-35 alternatives by the Netherlands. From Aviation Week: The defense ministry wi
35 Post contains links Art : 2 Gripens have arrived to be based at Emmen for evaluation. http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...DSsAAAAP&prod=96587&modele=release
36 AutoThrust : The F-16E/F isn't in the same ligue as the EF T3, Rafale F4 or Gripen. However it will depend heavily on the price which plane will win as Switzerlan
37 Art : Sure EF/Rafale would cost much more than F-16 but more to the point, would cost much more than Gripen to buy and would cost much more than Gripen to
38 Checksixx : Obviously not the league as the EF or Gripen (if you really stretch it), but the Rafale? I'd take a F-16C Block 40 any day of the week over a Rafale.
39 Rheinwaldner : Why is the Rafale less than the F-16C? Does not the Rafale have some Stealth capability (or will get it at least in the future).
40 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : It may have lost against the F-18 then, but it isn't the Super Bug it would've been competing against in this tender had it been shortlisted. It's qu
41 Post contains links TGIF : Update from Saab: Switzerland puts Gripen to the test Sound like the Swiss will get a real feel for how the different contenders are performing doing
42 SAS A340 : Early 2009 and a contract by 2010 and entered service by 2012.
43 Post contains links Art : Some info about the evaluation process being undertaken with Gripens: Two Gripen D (two seat) aircraft, together with air and ground crews, are based
44 Post contains links Rheinwaldner : Now that the Rafale has left Switzerland after the tests I reawake this thread. I found new food for discussion: http://www.strategypage.com/military
45 Post contains links Keesje : What about reworking a few dozen of low hour Mirage2000's and equip the with AESA radar e.g. AMSAR. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJiVsDygaM4 Low cos
46 AutoThrust : If we buy something it must be a modern choice and worth the money so it keeps competitive for a while. An upgraded Mirage2000 will not. My guess is
47 Post contains images Keesje : I think you can put a bigger AESA in the M2000 then in a Grippen, also the cockpit seems bigger (for big screens). Wait until the budget takes a hit,
48 Rheinwaldner : The M2000 lost against the FA-18 in the nineties. Thus the logical step according to your line of reasoning would be getting more (probably used) FA-
49 F27Friendship : one of the reasons they F-18C was selected of the F-16C was they Swiss thought the latter would not be in production anymore when they want more airf
50 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : Or buy something less sophisticated and more in line with the F-5's capabilities..... http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/JF-17_testin
51 F27Friendship : hey Devilfish, promoting Chinese industry in several threads are you? You happen to be at that air show the're having?
52 DEVILFISH : Ha, ha, ha.....not really (didn't you notice the smilies?). Just having a go at our European friends' vacillation. Besides, two threads are hardly "s
53 F27Friendship : well I was noticing a pattern and extrapolated from there hey we all have to lay down money for the mortgage
54 Post contains links TGIF : The manufacturers have been handed a second RFP due in mid April. CHF 2.2B is just under $2B which would makes it ~$90M per frame. Shouldn't be a prob
55 Bennett123 : I am surprised that the F16 has not been included in the shortlist. The current model is much more capable than the 1992 version. Keesje There was qui
56 Stoney : Because the F-16 lost out to the F/A-18 back then. And I don't believe they could bring what the SAF wants, since they surely will not go out of thei
57 Art : I think that 22 would be a problem for the EF once initial spares and support were added to the (say $75 million each) airframe costs. Rafale? Not as
58 Stoney : The budget is definitively not open to increase... even a small increase away from 2.2 billion sFr. will probably kill any chance a new fighter has w
59 TGIF : If Gripen is the cheapest option and the contenders' don't have a lot of 'bang' that justifies the extra 'bucks', then I think it will have the insid
60 Stoney : Up until now it wasn't a big theme in the Swiss Media. But it will be one, as soon as GSOA (The People for a Switzerland without an Army) will have e
61 EBJ1248650 : The fact that they want to replace the F-5s doesn't necessarily mean they want a near equivalent to the F-5. It's more likely they will re-equipe the
62 Post contains links F27Friendship : I've talked to people who took part in the competition back then. Apparently one important reason the F/A-18 won over the F-16 was they [the Swiss] p
63 SAS A340 : The three choices that are in this "race" are all very capable fighters,no question about that,but i have never understood why SAF with a combined fle
64 Stoney : Well getting the people to say yes to 2-3 billion for a new purchase every 15 years is easier than getting all the people to say yes to 6 billion for
65 DEVILFISH : Some may consider the Eagle "ancient" technology, but Singapore's and South Korea's examples are still very competitive, potent fighters. Just becaus
66 R2rho : I think this says it all. Given that this has to be approved in referendum, the choice will be for the cheapest platform, without any regard for the
67 Art : I'm curious why you should say that Austria and Germany using the EF might play a big part. Ok, they're right next door but so is France using Rafale
68 Post contains links TGIF : I think I might have found an answer to my question. http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...itzerland-replacing-its-f-5s-04624 Eurofighter Rafale Gri
69 Rheinwaldner : I am not sure. The F/A 18 was also affirmed by a referendum and was not the cheapest. The referendum will not be about the type but about the decisio
70 Post contains links Keesje : Agreed with above considerations. The Tigers and F18s are twin engined. How important is that is the current requirements? How many SAF aircraft made
71 R2rho : I agree that something of that sort could give the Typhoon a chance. With Germany and UK having second thoughts / changing their minds about their pr
72 Bennett123 : After the Crossair crash perhaps some flexibility on the Northern approach may be advisable purely on safety grounds.
73 Keesje : Flight 3597 you mean ?
74 Bennett123 : Not sure of the flight number. I mean the BAE146 in 2001.
75 Rheinwaldner : Without having selected the type the referendum is now confirmed because enough people (>100000) have signed a request for a referendum. Usually in s
76 HBChris : Actually it's an initiative that would prohibit the acquisition of new fighters between 2010 and 2019. This means that for the initiative to pass not
77 Post contains links AustrianZRH : However, the Austrian purchase of the EF was completely fu*ked up by the time the socialists re-entered our government. The reduction from 18 to 15 u
78 SAS A340 : According to bloomberg news there will not be a decision by end of May. It is more likely by year end now, (replacement of Swiss F-5)
79 TGIF : Seems the Swiss have some issues with their banking system so spending $2B (all though a small cost if you put some perspective on things) on fighter
80 SAS A340 : According to a Swedish economy site,a rumor says that if the Swiss take 22 Gripen NG,sweden would be interested in buying approx. 50 aircraft of a mod
81 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : This..... View Large View MediumPhoto © Stephen Fox So, they're looking at a quid pro quo. I wonder if they indicated the same interest for Embr
82 Par13del : A lot has been mentioned about the merits of proposed a/c, here's another question, are the Swiss in any political turmoil with either the EU or the U
83 Flagon : I am a bit skeptical about that one but I can't help sharing it anyway: According to the french news paper France Soir, french defense minister Herve
84 Post contains links Flagon : now with the link (in french, sorry...) http://www.francesoir.fr/argent-arme...ucces-en-rafale-seraient-imminents
85 Post contains links Flagon : According to the Swiss blog Avia News, the Eurofighter seems to be ruled out from the competition, which is likely to end up with a Gripen vs Rafale a
86 columba : Can not confirm anything but having seen the Gripen at the Berlin Air Show I must say it is a great airplane and with its lower costs in comparison t
87 Post contains links Flagon : I quite agree with you regarding the Patrouille Suisse, it seems like (according to the same source) Switzerland does not intend to replace its F5 an
88 Dreadnought : Should be an easy choice - the Gripen. It's the lightest and cheapest. Single Engine design - why do the Swiss need twin engines - it's hardly as if t
89 Flagon : Entriely agree with you that in Airshows the Gripen makes impressive displays just like any other modern fighter, however if you read carefully the l
90 Dreadnought : The Gripen's climb rate and power/weight ratios are better than the F-18s they have, and even better than the Super Hornet. It all comes down to cost
91 A342 : No, but in those mountains, emergency landing sites aren't exactly abundant. Yes, an ejection seat can take care of that, but I believe pilots prefer
92 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : Here's a single-engined design with excellent climb rate and power/weight ratio, could do Mach 2, very agile and maneuverable, packs a decent load, c
93 Post contains links Flagon : Absolutely, however, there are other parameters in the equation: France promises open access of the french airspace plus associate the Swiss to futur
94 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : How true. I beg to differ. Even their livery resembles that of the F-20..... http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...e-suisse-show-swiss-precision.htm
95 rheinwaldner : IIRC it was evaluated 20 years ago already. It was no winner then why should it now? What ability does it have over F-16 which was evaluated 20 years
96 Post contains links DEVILFISH : And I thought I was going overboard with the smilies. In answer to your questions, allow me to direct you to the following threads, and let you draw
97 Post contains links DEVILFISH : Deja Vu? http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ospects-for-us-trainers-swiss.html Quote: "Meanwhile, Chadwick also sought to revive hopes for the Sup
98 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : After all is said and done - everything is back to square one..... http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ecision-on-tiger-replacements.html Quote: "T
99 Lumberton : So what's pending for Rafale? Still in the IAF competition. Brazil? Lula kicked that can down the road. Libya? Khadaffi wants more commercial access t
100 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : Well, there's the UAE, if they could pull through this..... http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4775556&c=FEA&s=CVS Quote: "PARIS - The Un
101 Post contains links and images Devilfish : Update: A year later, this blog reported that the budget for the F-5 replacement purchase had been approved, and that a referendum was rejected..... h
102 art : I wonder if the budget has changed. It was reported as being 2.2 billion Swiss Francs. At 1 Swiss Franc = ca 0.8 euros, that would now be ca 2.65 bil
103 Arniepie : That's an F in math for you.
104 SAS A340 : Your figures makes it 1.76 Billion Euros......
105 art : Sorry. What an amazingly dumb thing to do - not to look at the 2 figures and realise I had calculated them upside down, inside out, front to back!
106 Post contains links Devilfish : This report only cites the Army as the main beneficiary of the budget increase..... http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...ts-fighter-choice-by-year_
107 Post contains links art : Just to complicate matters... Nov 2, 2011 "RUAG Aviation, which looks after Switzerland’s F-5E/F fleet, says the number of operational F-5s in the w
108 Post contains links rheinwaldner : Just for the record. Several sources claim that the Rafale is favoured by the technical evaluation. As can be seen in the Tagi today: http://www.tages
109 Autothrust : Don't believe a word what this newspaper writes. I have readed other sources where swiss pilots favoured clearly the Eurofighter.(http://offiziere.ch
110 flagon : I cannot read this article since it is in german, but I am surprised indeed, I would have thought the Swiss Air Force would prefer the plane which ha
111 Post contains links art : New kid should be appearing on the block soon. "South Korea will begin mass production of an armed model of its supersonic trainer jet starting in 201
112 wvsuperhornet : I don't see either the FA-50 or the Tejas being considered in the swiss bid and other than 3rd world countries I can't see anyone being interested in
113 Post contains links and images Devilfish : Just to clear up things, does this mean that the linked blog report in #101 saying that the Council rejected the referendum intentionally misled read
114 art : Exactly. If a plebiscite rejects a deal for whatever is chosen due to the cost, either the Tigers soldier on or a cheaper, more modest aircraft is co
115 Autothrust : No way Switzerland would buy this already obsolete plane. As a trainer it might be a great choice though, but that's just not what the airforce needs
116 Post contains links art : I am sure you know better than me but where the F-5 is concerned, why was the Swiss government trying to get an idea of upgrade costs for the F-5? No
117 Post contains links Devilfish : Apparently, the armed forces chief favors a referendum which Parliament had already decided against..... http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...tzerl
118 art : If the Green Party membership is of any substantial size (tens of thousands) I would think that with a bit of networking they could reach 50,000 sign
119 Post contains links flagon : I found this Swiss video (in french, with some interviews in english). Link here below: http://www.tsr.ch/video/emissions/mi...rnisseurs.html There is
120 bennett123 : Assuming that there is a referendum, what do those proposing it hope to acheive?.
121 Post contains links flagon : The link below seems to support the news posted in reply 108 by Reinwaldner: http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/...-zur-Jetbeschaffung/story/30431448
122 Post contains links and images flyingturtle : http://bazonline.ch/schweiz/standard...d-offenbar-gefallen/story/28653803 It isn't official yet, but the newspapers report that Switzerland selects th
123 FBWless : Excellent news for Gripen and SAAB if the inside information is true! The Gripen manufacturing line is drying up and this order will grant some extens
124 Autothrust : That was foreseeable. I still think its the best and most important ...affordable solution for switzerland.
125 Post contains images SAS A340 : Wonderful news could this influence Sweden to more serious evaluate the NG as it's replacement for the C/D,s?
126 FBWless : Not only is Gripen cheaper to buy, it's also cheaper to operate than most other competitors in its class.
127 Post contains links and images Devilfish : This win reaffirms principles which seek balance between the requirement and solution..... http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/ Quote: "UPDA
128 SAS A340 : So,will the PC-21 replace tho old SAAB 105 now?? if everything goes thru ? Sweden = 115 A-D Hungary = 14 C/D Tjeckosl. = 14 C/D SAAF = 28 C/D Thailand
129 Post contains images Autothrust : True but it doesn't deliver nowhere the same performance compared to its competitors. Anyway at the end of the day congratulations to SAAB and at lea
130 Post contains links Devilfish : There's a good chance of that...as the PC-21 will likely be at the top of offset negotiations..... http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...n-for-f-5-r
131 Powerslide : When do they expect to receive their first one?
132 SAS A340 : 2015 IF the deal go thru. I read that some parties in Switzerland is trying to stop it since they think that's there no need of a new fighter at all.
133 moriarty : First of all, great news! I think Switzerland not only made a wise choice but a good one. All this talk about Gripen not having good performance is co
134 flagon : One could argue that if cost was such an determinent criteria, it didn't really make any sense to run a lengthy and costly competition process against
135 faro : Congratulations to all; the Gripen is by far the best option possible given Switzerland's military stature and the astronomical costs involved in any
136 Rheinwaldner : Congratulations to SAAB! I think they have won because of the best value for money. It is essential for this deal that it comes across as "reasonable"
137 flagon : That's what I think too, that Mirage-3S was legend. Was it down to cost issues as well? Was it an attractive offer financially?
138 Autothrust : Yes of course it was a deliberate choice, the Federal Councillor has said he wanted not the most expensive fighter to not cause tensions within the a
139 Post contains images flyingturtle : What is the intended purpose of the new Gripen at all? Being in the middle of Europe, we only need aircraft to police the airspace and be able to pol
140 flagon : I guess that's where some people see a bit of an issue here, as the Basler Zeitung published yesterday two charts extracted from the confidential eva
141 Autothrust : I fully agree. For that job the Gripen is better suited then the F/A-18. The question is not speed, it is acceleration. In a QRA situation you want t
142 Post contains links and images Autothrust : The released evaluation reports are flawed according to the federal councillor Ueli Maurer. http://bazonline.ch/schweiz/standard...-Gripen-abschiesse
143 Post contains images flyingturtle : Then I'll look for this chart sometime... Okay, understandable! But then, as the Wikipedia says... "A report in the Swiss news magazine FACTS reveals
144 FBWless : Ignoring your competitors is dangerous in defense business. Rafale team has missed the Gripen NG Demo completely! Now of course this is not the final
145 Post contains links and images flyingturtle : Is the Gripen that much reliable, or less maintenance-intensive? Not wanting to hijack the thread, but amusing history: Well, concerning Dassault's c
146 FBWless : The plans in the 80's and 90's were to have 204 Gripens in the Swedish AF but with major cutbacks of the Swedish defense and replanning, only 105 Gri
147 wvsuperhornet : The F-18 superhornet if thats what everyone is refering to is over kill for the swiss, the gripen would provide them a low cost modern aircraft for w
148 art : Gripen was chosen principally on the basis of cost, it seems, not all out capability. I wonder if Brazil will end up going down the Gripen route. With
149 Post contains links LAXintl : Aviation Week has a pretty good story and interview with Swiss Defense Minister regarding the selection process. http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener.
150 Post contains links flagon : That's not going well for the gripen in switzerland at the moment, because irregularities in the Gripen deal are now under deep investigation, and mos
151 flagon : Quick traduction from "Le Monde" "French aircraft maker Dassault Aviation has offered Switzerland to buy 18 Rafale fighter jets for EUR 2.2 billion in
152 SAS A340 : So offer i slightly better plane in less numbers and probably far less flight our/ $ is the solution to make them reconsider the Gripen decision? whe
153 flagon : I don't think it is worth debating here how the plane performances compare to each other and/or what is the best option in terms life cycle cost, ind
154 Post contains images SAS A340 : Woow....that was all news to me......well,if the Gripen NG seems to be that poor, and the Rafale that cheap and superb,then there would´t be that ha
155 flagon : Sorry slight correction here: the government (and more specifically the Swiss defence minister Ueli Maurer) made this statement to justify their choi
156 Post contains images SAS A340 : There will always be speculations from all sides but i agree with you,let´s Wait and see..... and then continue with more
157 MillwallSean : I find it interesting that when the Gripen wins a deal for beingt the best overall package including price its despite bad test results. When the rafa
158 Post contains links and images Devilfish : Is that how one always managed to be the lowest bidder? After its MMRCA selection, the Rafale could be the odds on pick to get the exports for this d
159 flagon : According to Agence France Press, Saab are cutting the price of the Gripen "Saab to cut jet fighter price for Swiss:... Swedish defence firm Saab will
160 Post contains images Devilfish : The haggling begins. I wonder who would blink first?
161 Post contains images SAS A340 : I can confirm that the same news are in Swedish press also,but SAAB claims it as pure speculation at this point ,but what the "rumor" says is that SA
162 flagon : Dassault have not signed any contract yet, so they are not going to let go any opportunity, but if you want my personnal opinion, I think Dassault's
163 Post contains links flagon : New leaks about the swiss evaluation published today, this time it looks a lot more authentic than the previous leaks in swiss newspapers as this repo
164 FBWless : The deal for 22 Gripen E's (single seat) has been signed! - Price is fixed at CHF 3.126 billion, which is almost equal in USD for the moment. - Delive
165 ebj1248650 : If this is true, how did the Gripen end up winning? My best guess is that it won based on program price. For the price, Gripen is a very good fighter
166 Acheron : I would also guess it is a better fit to the Swiss way of defense, plus shares engines with the F/A-18 they already operate.
167 ThePointblank : No parts commonality between the F/A-18 and the Gripen's engines. Same family of engines. Comparing the deal to everyone else, it seems the Swiss pai
168 Acheron : Yeah, just realized the actual order is for Gripen NG's and the C/D are actually leased. My bad for misreading.
169 ebj1248650 : Gripen will serve the Swiss well. Were Typhoon and Rafale perhaps too much airplane for the Swiss?
170 checksixx : Again...not the same engines. You wouldn't be able to switch the motor's out between Gripen C/D's and the Hornets at all.
171 Post contains images autothrust : That's correct, The budget was secretly set to 3bn. So in reality neither the Rafale or Typhoon had a chance from beginning. This whole procurement s
172 SAS A340 : well,since gripen is the choice of a F-5 replacement and not a F-18 replacement,i don't get it why even the Rafale or the EF ever was considered at t
173 flyingturtle : Because Switzerland is such a small country (350 km / 190 nm), wouldn't it make sense to buy Alenia Aermacchi M-346 for the single, credible airborne
174 autothrust : Why not buy some Tor missile system/SA-15 GAUNTLET and place it at parliament building, this system is even capable to detect and destroy precision b
175 flyingturtle : That's one hell of a capable system... Yes, our Mirage IIIS and IIIRS procurement only developed into a desaster when we started to build them... the
176 ThePointblank : You can always buy Block 52 Viper's... or even Block 60's for that matter. The UAE bought 80 of those for $6.4 billion. Nah, let's be NATO compatible
177 ebj1248650 : How is this so? I was under the impression the Swiss AF got very good service from their Mirages and until you said something about it, I didn't real
178 SAS A340 : I asking myself the same question...trainwreck??
179 Post contains links and images flyingturtle : Talk about HUGE cost overruns. We built the Mirages ourselves under licence. Neither the army nor the government issued specifications the aircraft s
180 Post contains images SAS A340 : Dassault has now once again (which number in order i don't know,lost track) sent a offer to the Swiss, they offer 22 Rafale for the EXACT same price a
181 flyingturtle : Hehe. It's funny how this will play out. It came to light that the main criterium would be the costs, and after the competitors knew about that, Dass
182 SAS A340 : I have always been more worried of the Swiss referendum than of Dassault....whats funny is,that there is a risk that there wont be any fighter at all
183 Post contains images flyingturtle : Don't worry. It's so bungled now that I won't bet on a F-5 successor anymore. The procurement process gives the GSoA (Group for a Switzerland without
184 Post contains links Devilfish : With the MMRCA negotiations projected to be completed in March 2013, Dassault probably already has a good handle on the lowest price they could offer
185 Post contains links ThePointblank : More questions regarding the Swiss Gripen purchase in a Swiss newspaper: http://www.lematin.ch/suisse/suisse-...-retouches-gripen-7/story/25116550 Tra
186 flagon : I wonder how the Eurofighter will accomodate the weight increase from its AESA radar and whether its customers are prepared to fund whatever fix will
187 Post contains links TGIF : That article is from May and a lot has happened since then. Looks like the article didn't have the desired effect as the leakers (oh I wonder who the
188 Post contains links thunderboltdrgn : The Swiss government yesterday sent a formal proposal to the Swiss parliament to acquire 22 new Saab Gripen E version. http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/
189 Post contains links and images Devilfish : For more A.net reader friendly versions..... http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....e-xml/awx_11_14_2012_p0-517003.xml http://www.defense-aerospace.co
190 columba : Only 22 Gripens ? Will the Patrouille Suisse be able get some ?
191 flyingturtle : Historically, Patrouille Suisse has often used the oldest equipment. I don't think the Tigers will be retired soon. Between 1959 and 1964 (National F
192 art : Le Matin wants a French aircraft to replace Tiger, I think. If Gripen were made in France and Rafale anywhere outside of France, Le Matin would be tel
193 Post contains links and images TGIF : Art, ignore the Dassault sponsored sources... The article is old and as I said above, a lot has happened since then e.g.: This is now: http://www.avia
194 columba : Okay, maybe Patrouille Suisse will get some older 2nd Gripens in the future then. I honestly don´t believe that the Tigers wil be kept just for the
195 flyingturtle : The Tigers will be kept anyway until the Gripen is in service. Like the Hunters were phased out from PS *and* regular air force service in 1994. Then
196 as739x : Sounds like an Airbus
197 art : Are you just saying that because you are as737x (don't think Airbus make 737's) or is there actually something in what you say? I don't see a pattern
198 Post contains links and images Devilfish : Speaking of 'cheap'...it doesn't seem the E/F would be anything like that at all..... http://www.defensenews.com/article/2...odyssey=tab|topnews|text|
199 Post contains images flyingturtle : ...and there was even a story about a treaty between Switzerland and Sweden. And even the Defense Ministry did not know if it was a memorandum of unde
200 Post contains links thunderboltdrgn : New article: http://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/wende...uergerliche-unterstuetzen-den-kauf Also from what I've heard, the development program of the Gripe
201 Post contains links thunderboltdrgn : A date for the public referendum have been set to Sunday May 18th this year. The referendum will be whether funds should be allocated for the purchase
202 olle : with Brazil on board Gripen E/F will happen with or without teh Swiss airforce. This should make some voices in the parlament change.
203 TGIF : The referendum will be a public vote where the citizens of Switzerland will have their say. The parliament (both chambers) has already approved the p
204 jumpjet : OK, so here we go... Being 100% serious and without wishing to offend anyone out there, what would happen if Switzerland didn't re-equip with anything
205 KiwiRob : Yup I have thought the same as well, NZ did it, Ireland never had them (that I know off) some countries probably don't have an real justification for
206 jumpjet : I can understand Belgium, historically it's literally been trampled into the mud as major powers have tried to get at each others throats! 1914 &
207 seahawk : Very few European countries need fighter jets today.
208 jumpjet : I agree 100%! But they still go ahead and buy them....., which is my point, so why do they? I appreciate that for NATO members, there's pressure to b
209 SAS A340 : well.... Sweden is also a small country and not a meber of NATO,and i dont recall any country promises to help if we would end up in trouble...not ev
210 jumpjet : You may be missing the point but Sweden is a completely different case to that of Switzerland anyway. Sweden is the largest country in northern Europ
211 seahawk : I can understand ~12 jets for Air policing, just like Austria does. But the Swiss will have a way bigger fleet.
212 SAS A340 : Initially, Yes, but we must not forget that when the Gripen NG is delivered by 2018-2020 their F-18 is between 20-25 years old. Regarding the referen
213 tommy1808 : The Swiss Airforce is planned to be able to defend the nation. They think that requires ~70 jets in total. Austria made a big leap forward with the E
214 jumpjet : Can you elaborate please?
215 tommy1808 : From time to time the Austrian Airforce catches NATO flights in its territory. For example the USAF tried to sneak two F117 through Austrian airspace
216 jumpjet : Ah! I see.... Thanks
217 KiwiRob : Damn those pesky Danes to the south, they still want Skania back!!!!!
218 jumpjet : Having watched Wallender and The Bridge, they're welcome to it!!!! There can't anyone left alive....
219 Post contains images aviationmaster : Geography makes Switzerland's airspace one of Europe's busiest and is strategically quite interesting. Swiss law requires the Swiss Armed Forces to b
220 ThunderboltDrgn : I think this applies for most or possible even all countries in Europe. I don't think there will be local neighbouring conflicts like Switzerland inv
221 Post contains links ThePointblank : Back to the order: There is controversy in Switzerland over Saab's financing of advertising and promotion related to the referendum. Although this is
222 prebennorholm : First of all they need them for their airshows. So they in a hundred years on sunny Sundays can make formation flights with Gripen, Hunter and Vampir
223 Post contains links ThunderboltDrgn : This is another French propaganda lie by media put out in hope of spoiling the Swizz purchase of Gripen so that the French Rafale will get a new chan
224 Post contains images flyingturtle : Well, I have helped to collect signatures for the Gripen referendum... David
225 Dreadnought : At the time the premier Swiss interceptor was the Mrage IIIS, which was faster than the F-16.
226 Post contains images flyingturtle : Then it depends on where the Mirage IIIS was stationed... today at least, the SE part of Switzerland doesn't have any fighter bases. It looks like th
227 Powerslide : Wow that thing looks small, even for a full-scale mockup. Doesn't look like the pilot even needs a ladder, he just 'steps' in the aircraft.
228 Post contains links flyingturtle : I'm quite sure it was a 1:1 scale mock-up, and the organizers of the Dittingen Air Show say on http://www.flugtage.ch/d/index.php/e...layseng/78-saab
229 Dreadnought : I remember visiting the very popular Transport Museum in Luzern a couple of years ago, and there was a Eurofighter Typhoon on similar display there f
230 Post contains images Devilfish : If I'm not terribly mistaken, Switzerland is still a major depositary of the world's wealth. It follows that it would need some serious force to prot
231 prebennorholm : Yeah, and luckily the Danish F-16s and the Italian F-104s were flying at one fourth their maximum speed - otherwise there wouldn't have been many unb
232 Post contains images SAS A340 : I agree with you, SAAB has this exhibition with them at many air shows, there is a bit of their repertoire and is not unique in any way, and free t-s
233 tommy1808 : Even the Austrians managed to catch F-16s with their stone age Saab Draken and made it well enough that they could have gunned them out of the sky. A
234 solarflyer22 : That's a great point. I guess 110 made sense during the cold war but its an old frame in need of replacement. Its a shame that they are down to that
235 tommy1808 : It is a fast plane in many regards, but top speed is limited by the fixed air intake. Pressure recovery is good till ~1-5 -1.6 Mach, but at Mach 1.75
236 flyingturtle : Our budget is still tight. In 2012, we spent 23.4 billion US$ on welfare (old age pension, disabled, jobless, healthcare...), and 7.43 billion US$ on
237 tommy1808 : Are those covered by taxes or by money contributions while having work? Best regards Thomas
238 flyingturtle : In theory, they're funded through deductions from the pay. Old age's pension, jobless insurance, disability insurance as well as "Erwerbsersatz" (to
239 Post contains images bennett123 : IMO, this business with SAAB advertising is a storm in a teacup. All firms promote their products, lobbying behind the scenes is a far bigger issue. A
240 prebennorholm : Sure the "stone age" Saab Draken could have done that, especially since this "incident" was at low level (it had to be not to interfere with controll
241 tommy1808 : Of course they have the flight performance to do that, but in theory no Dranken shouldn´t be able to surprise an F16 due to AWACS support. Very comm
242 Post contains links ThunderboltDrgn : According to Swedish television, SVT, currently about 60% of the Swizz people would vote no to acquiring new fighters, http://www.svt.se/nyheter/sveri
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