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Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.  
User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3398 posts, RR: 1
Posted (6 years 11 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

BERNE (AP)--The Swiss Federal Defense department has invited four airplane constructers, Boeing, Dassault, EADS and Gripen International to present offers by mid-May for the partial replacement of the country's Tiger fighter planes.

http://www.easybourse.com/Website/dy...hp?ISIN=NL0000235190&NewsID=375461

242 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4952 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (6 years 11 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 32767 times:


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Photo © David Ilott
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Photo © Tony Strother


Lockheed Martin not shortlisted? I would have thought their next generation F-16 a "natural" candidate and a good single-engine match to the Gripen.....

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/assets/10385.jpg

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_JAS-39N_Gripen_Drawing_lg.jpg

Maybe LM is pushing for the JSF. Or could this be more of the same, and just an "upsize" to the Super Bug?

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"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (6 years 11 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

This deal can easily be summed in just two words: Super Hornet

User currently offlineStoney From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 199 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (6 years 11 months 6 days ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 2):
This deal can easily be summed in just two words: Super Hornet

I don't really think so. Maybe the super hornet is too much of a plane for Switzerland right now in a situation where the main role of Swiss Air Force is policing the skies and not offering a complete air defense. It's about replacing the aging fleet of F-5s which consisted of 110 planes and are now down to less than 50 planes in service. Considering that there will surely be a referendum and a vote by the Swiss people, the budget will be limited, probably to about the same amount the purchase of the hornet was, meaning max 3 billion. So it's more a political question and a question which manufacturer offers the best deal for the Swiss Air Force to be able to fulfill it's role. Sometimes more planes, event though less capable, are worth more than a few machines which would be superior, but don't offer enough time on station in little numbers...

But in the end, it's only a political question which plane will be ordered and the Swiss people will have the last word if they want to approve the order.... That's the beauty of a direct political system...

Greetz
Stoney



BAZL - Bundesamt gegen Zivilluftfahrt - royally screwing around with swiss aviation
User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 788 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 11 months 6 days ago) and read 32767 times:

Replace F-5 with F-18 seems like a overkill for sure,F-16 ore Gripen would be the natural choice.

Some info on gripens homepage.

www.gripen.com



It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
User currently offlineEBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (6 years 11 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 4):
Replace F-5 with F-18 seems like a overkill for sure,F-16 ore Gripen would be the natural choice.

Some info on gripens homepage.

Typhoon and Rafale would be overkill as well. Gripen has grown increasingly popular over the years and it wouldn't come as any surprise to see the Swiss go the Gripen route. It's a shame there's no F-20 Tigershark to offer them now.



Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (6 years 11 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 5):
Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 4):
Replace F-5 with F-18 seems like a overkill for sure,F-16 ore Gripen would be the natural choice.

Some info on gripens homepage.

Typhoon and Rafale would be overkill as well.

Yes, it strikes me as strange that they should want to consider anything "above" F-16/Gripen. Why waste their own time doing this (as well as the manufacturers' time.)


User currently offlineBengan From Sweden, joined Jul 2007, 43 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 11 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting Art (Reply 6):
Why waste their own time doing this (as well as the manufacturers' time.)

Why not? Having more bidders at the table will push the price down.

/Bengt


User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 788 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 11 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting Bengan (Reply 7):
Why not? Having more bidders at the table will push the price down.

I think that these bidders play in two categories here,first you have Typhoon,Rafale and the F-18,and the second categories would be the F-16 and the Gripen....just for the country to decide what kind of fighter the want ore need.



It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
User currently offlineF27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (6 years 11 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 2):
This deal can easily be summed in just two words: Super Hornet

HAHAHA

The're not really happy with their current hornets.

BTW, phasing out the F-5 doesn't mean they will get an equally sized plane in return. It makes a lot of sense they will get a type which will also be able to replace the F-18 later on, meaning, buying in batches.

My bet is on the Typhoon and the Gripen


User currently offlineStoney From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 199 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (6 years 11 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 9):
The're not really happy with their current hornets.

Who said that? Would be the first time I heard this statement.

And FYI, the F-16 is no option, there won't even be a proposal with that aircraft....



BAZL - Bundesamt gegen Zivilluftfahrt - royally screwing around with swiss aviation
User currently offlineF27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (6 years 11 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting Stoney (Reply 10):
Who said that? Would be the first time I heard this statement.

it has something to do with buying the aircraft cheap (fly-away cost) and pay through your nose for everything else


User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 788 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 11 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting Stoney (Reply 10):
And FYI, the F-16 is no option, there won't even be a proposal with that aircraft....

Well,there is ore was anyway about 80 F-5 in Swiz Airforce.....will another fighter replace every unit almost everything feels like a overkill,above that they also have 30+ of F-18,s......



It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (6 years 11 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

From the easybourse article:

"The DDPS could possibly make an armament program valued at approximately CHF2.2 billion available by 2010 for the purchase of the jets and the necessary PC-21 training aircraft."

US$1=CHF1.1, so possibly a budget of about US$2 billion to replace the F-5's.

From what I have read on a number of sites, the requirement is for air defence. I have also read that the Super Hornet is not under consideration, so it looks like the F-15, Rafale, Typhoon and Gripen are under consideration.

Given the size of the country - perhaps 15 min maximum to take off and fly from one end of the country to the other - I don't see that range is of any relevance. Given the mooted budget, it appears there is only enough money to buy Gripen unless the Swiss Air Force would be prepared to have one very small squadron of F-15/Rafale/Typhoon. Back of envelope calculation for F-15/Rafale/Typhoon: 2 x trainer @US$200 million + 8 x fighter @ US$200 million = US$2 billion

[Edited 2008-01-19 04:56:40]

User currently offlineStoney From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 199 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (6 years 11 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 11):
it has something to do with buying the aircraft cheap (fly-away cost) and pay through your nose for everything else

It's true that there are cost to upgrade or better said to keep the planes up to date practically yearly. I think next year there are like 500 million budgeted just for the hornets....

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 12):
Well,there is ore was anyway about 80 F-5 in Swiz Airforce.....will another fighter replace every unit almost everything feels like a overkill,above that they also have 30+ of F-18,s......

It will not be a one on one replacement. AFAIK the Swiss Air Force will try to get about 30 new planes, so they can keep their 6 squadrons of fighters, three hornet squadrons and three new ones. The trainers will not be in the same tranche of the budget, 6 are already bought and are being introduced right now.

BTW the RFP is only for the Typhoon, the Rafale, the Super Hornet and the Gripen, no F-16 and no F-15.....



BAZL - Bundesamt gegen Zivilluftfahrt - royally screwing around with swiss aviation
User currently offlinePetertenthije From Netherlands, joined Jul 2001, 3391 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (6 years 11 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Would it not be a closer match to replace the F-5 with something like the BAe Hawk or the Aero L-159?


Attamottamotta!
User currently offlineWvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 517 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 11 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

I would think that ordering a smaller number of F-18 Superhornets would more likley fit their system, yes I do think its too much of an aircraft for what they need but they already have several F-18C models, so cross training pilots would be minimal. Also the older F-18's they have now could take over the F-5's roll and leave the front line stuff up to the new superhornets. Just something to think about.

User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7089 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (6 years 11 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

The Swiss Air Force has two choices in my opinion:
1) Look for a real "Tiger" replacement which would only be the Gripen in size

or

2) Go for a multi-role aircraft that will replace both the Tiger and the Hornet in a few years, best choices here would be the Rafale or the Eurofighter. Since Austria and Germany have the Eurofighter a three nation deal on maintenance , training and parts might be a good sales argument by EADS.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineEBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (6 years 11 months 6 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 9):
My bet is on the Typhoon and the Gripen

Why not Rafale?



Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently offlineTancrede From Finland, joined May 2006, 245 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 11 months 5 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 28):
Why not Rafale?

I do agree with that question. Everybody is talking about the Gripen/superhornet and Typhoon, and even about others ruled out from the RFP, but no one mention the Rafale.
Please any opinion and estimation about the chances of the French fighter in this RFP would be welcome.  

[Edited 2008-01-23 11:49:50]

User currently offlineF27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

What counts for the hornet counts a bit for their mirage's as well.

User currently offlineSandroZRH From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting Stoney (Reply 3):
Considering that there will surely be a referendum and a vote by the Swiss people, the budget will be limited

Excellent point.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 9):
The're not really happy with their current hornets.

They're not indeed. Half of the fleet is constantly grounded due to technical issues, and the "cooperation" with the US hasn't exactly been what Switzerland expected it to be, hence i see very little chance for the Superhornet, needless to say it would be overkill anyway. And last but not least, it would make us even more dependant on the US's goodwill, which needs to be avoided.

Quoting Stoney (Reply 10):
Who said that? Would be the first time I heard this statement.

huh? It's a known and widely discussed fact that they're not happy with the Hornets. They are happy with the aircraft's performance in flight, but not so much with its reliability, which has been awful in the last couple of months to say the least, and as mentioned before, the cooperation with the US.

Personally, I'm hoping for the Gripen. A fighter fully capable to fulfill the Swiss air force's mission at relatively low cost built by a country that Switzerland has excellent relations with. Second on my list would be the Rafale. The Typhoon and the Superhornet would be too expensive and definately overkill.

People need to remember that it's not like Switzerland is going to war anytime soon. The Swiss Air Force's mission is a pure air-police mission over Swiss territory, and therefore we don't need an expensive totally state of the art fighter. Even the F5 is still very capable to fulfill the mission, the reason it will be replaced is purely its age, not its capabilities.


User currently offlineStoney From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 199 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 39):
People need to remember that it's not like Switzerland is going to war anytime soon. The Swiss Air Force's mission is a pure air-police mission over Swiss territory, and therefore we don't need an expensive totally state of the art fighter. Even the F5 is still very capable to fulfill the mission, the reason it will be replaced is purely its age, not its capabilities.

Well, the F-5s aren't capable of operating in all weather conditions, so they're not as capable as one would think. Another point is the electronic updates the Hornets received, giving them the ability to fulfill aspects like look-down capability, resulting in the fact that for example during WEF-style operations, less mobile radar stations on the ground etc are needed.
But I guess if the SAF didn't have the age problem with the tigers they would rather keep them in their present number as an add-on to the Hornet fleet than get a smaller number of replacements.

Even though a war isn't probable in the near future, never say never. Nobody knows, and it's easier to keep the knowledge and the capability on a minimum level, than to learn everything from scratch, when it probably would be too late anyway..

From my point of view it's not really important which plane is bought as a tiger replacement, because a huge part of that decision is political and you never know what or how our kindergarden, officially known as parliament, will decide, but rather that one plane is bought in sufficient numbers to give our Air Force enough means to do their job.



BAZL - Bundesamt gegen Zivilluftfahrt - royally screwing around with swiss aviation
User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

"Boeing had prepared to bid with the F/A-18E/F Block II Super Hornet, but withdrew after reviewing the contents of the request for proposal."

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...rnet-from-swiss-contract-race.html


User currently offlineStoney From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 199 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

working FlightGlobal article

Well, let the guessing begin: What could be the real reason behind this decision of boeing? What I heard was that the plane was too big to fit the infrastructure which was practically completely renewed for the hornet, but I don't know if that's true.
Another possibility I could imagine is that boeing doesn't think the 2.2b of this order is worth enough to really try selling stuff to Switzerland.

Anyway, I think the super hornet would have looked pretty cool flying around Switzerland, sad that it'll never get to that.

Official statement from the Swiss government



BAZL - Bundesamt gegen Zivilluftfahrt - royally screwing around with swiss aviation
User currently offlineAutoThrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1609 posts, RR: 9
Reply 25, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 39):
Personally, I'm hoping for the Gripen. A fighter fully capable to fulfill the Swiss air force's mission at relatively low cost built by a country that Switzerland has excellent relations with. Second on my list would be the Rafale. The Typhoon and the Superhornet would be too expensive and definately overkill.

I also bet for the Gripen its a good allround plane at a affordable price. However the question will be how much air superiority do we want for the money. Its speaks also for the Gripen that the METEOR/IRIS-T can be used.

But one thing is not quite true, while the aquisition costs are very high for the EF it has same or lower maintenance cost and higher reliability then the rest of the proposed fighters due to unique integrated health monitoring system and symplified systems.



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 26, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting Art (Thread starter):
BERNE (AP)--The Swiss Federal Defense department has invited four airplane constructers, Boeing, Dassault, EADS and Gripen International to present offers by mid-May for the partial replacement of the country's Tiger fighter planes.

Anyone heard if the remaining 3 constructors have presented their offers?


User currently offlineArniePie From Belgium, joined Aug 2005, 1265 posts, RR: 1
Reply 27, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Maybe the biggest advantage the Gripen offers is its commonality with their F18 fighter.
They basically use the same engine (the RM12 is in fact a direct derivative of the GE-F404) and a ,as I understand, the data-link is NATO compatible and its able to use most of the Hornet's weaponry.


On a side-note I wish the BAF (Belgian air force) would go for the next GEN Gripen (with AESA if possible) , it's cheap enough but still very versatile and modern and most important of all ,can be bought in adequate numbers.



[edit post]
User currently offlineTGIF From Sweden, joined Apr 2008, 277 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting Art (Reply 44):

Anyone heard if the remaining 3 constructors have presented their offers?

From Aviation Week: European Fighter Boom

Quote:

Switzerland

The Swiss requirement is for an F-5E Tiger II replacement and a formal Request for Proposals (RfP) will be issued in July. Initial responses to a Request for Information (RfI) are already being thoroughly evaluated at an air force, industrial and governmental level. The Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassault Rafale and Saab Gripen are each in the running. Earlier this year Boeing withdrew the Super Hornet on the grounds that it exceeded the Swiss requirements by too wide a margin. Where that leaves the remaining twin-engined heavyweight contenders is anyone's guess.

...

Later this summer a series of flight evaluations will be held in-country. Bidders will submit their best and final offers (BAFOs) in early 2009, with a contract anticipated in mid-2009.

I find this especially interesting:
"...Boeing withdrew the Super Hornet on the grounds that it exceeded the Swiss requirements by too wide a margin."
With EF and Rafale are roughly the same size (or are there other issues?), why didn't the Swiss invite the F-16 to come out and play? I think it would suit the Switzerland just fine...


User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 788 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

In July, Saab plans to show the plane in Switzerland.

The Swiss military is about to purchase new aircraft and the Swiss are also interested in purchasing equipment, support systems, and maintenance. The Jas 39 Gripen is one of the planes under consideration.

In January Switzerland requested on which Saab is now working. But the exact number of planes Switzerland is interested in purchasing remains secret.

"The Swiss are now working out a procurement order and will conduct service tests in Switzerland of those planes in which they have an interest," said Lasse Jansson, a spokesperson with Saab's Gripen International sales company.

"We will be travelling down to Switzerland with the Gripen in July for an evaluation. It will continue for a short while into August."

Following the evaluation, a decision will be taken regarding the submission of a formal bid.

Other planes in the competition include the French Rafale and the Eurofighter.

source : thelocal.se

Other Swedish media says that somewhere between 20 to 30 fighters are evaluated



It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4952 posts, RR: 1
Reply 30, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting TGIF (Reply 46):
why didn't the Swiss invite the F-16 to come out and play? I think it would suit the Switzerland just fine...

Wary of a tight contest?

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 47):
But the exact number of planes Switzerland is interested in purchasing remains secret.

This breaking news item from Defense-Aerospace says 33.....

Swiss military ready to buy up to 33 of Saab Gripen's JAS fighter aircraft

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...OX8AAAEAAAeNheEAAAAC&modele=jdc_34

Flight and Ground Tests with the Three Candidates for the Partial Tiger Replacement (TTE) During the Second Half of 2008

(Source: armasuisse Swiss Defence Procurement Agency; dated June 17, web-posted June 23, 2008)


Quote:
"During the second half of 2008 flight and ground tests for the succession of the F-5E/F Tiger – the so-called Partial Tiger Replacement (TTE) will take place at the Emmen airbase. For about four weeks, each of the three candidates – Gripen, Rafale and Eurofighter – will be tested in a severe selection process. armasuisse is in charge of the evaluation and will perform it together with the Swiss Air Force.

The flight and ground tests will begin on 28 July with the first candidate, the Swedish Gripen. This aircraft will be followed by the French Rafale, and the last flight and ground tests with the Eurofighter will take place at the beginning of December."



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 31, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 48):
This breaking news item from Defense-Aerospace says 33.....

Perhaps I misread the article but I don't see any reference to 33.


User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4952 posts, RR: 1
Reply 32, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting Art (Reply 49):
Perhaps I misread the article but I don't see any reference to 33.

It was in the red AFP headlines which disappear after a while. You'd see it if you do a search of the leader on the d-a site, or if you are a subscriber.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineBengan From Sweden, joined Jul 2007, 43 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 48):

Quoting TGIF (Reply 46):
why didn't the Swiss invite the F-16 to come out and play? I think it would suit the Switzerland just fine...

Wary of a tight contest?

My guess is because they have already evaluated the F-16, it lost out to the F-18 in 1992.

Todays news:

Quoting Åke Svensson, Saab:
Switzerland is yet another example of the strong interest for Gripen worldwide. Our proposal meets all the requirements put forward by armasuisse. The Gripen proposal offers Switzerland the most cost-effective and proportionate replacement for the F-5E/F and moreover a perfect force fit with existing F/A-18 C/D. The proposal also features long-term viable industrial co-operation at 100 per cent of the contract value.

Saab handed over their RFP proposal to Armasuisse today: http://www.saabgroup.com/en/MediaRel...srelease.htm?PressreleaseId=169274

They have also been looking at offset agreements - signing an MoU with Pilatus and opening cooperation discussions with Rheinmetall:

http://www.saabgroup.com/en/MediaRel...srelease.htm?PressreleaseId=169276

/Bengt


User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 34, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:

As an aside, Gripen has joined the other aircraft being evaluated as F-35 alternatives by the Netherlands. From Aviation Week:

The defense ministry will, however, consider the Gripen Next Generation as an alternative option, alongside the three existing alternatives (the Eurofighter Typhoon Tranche 3, Dassault Rafale Standard F4 and Lockheed Martin Advanced (Block 60+) F-16E/F), de Vries says.

"In our previous evaluation, the Saab Gripen was deselected because it was found to have considerable shortcomings in range, armament, self-protection, interoperability and sensors," de Vries says.

"Saab has recently announced that a new version of Gripen is being developed, Gripen Next Generation, information on which so far is limited to what has been published in open sources. We will investigate this Next Generation variant in the coming months, particularly to assess the developments compared with the previous Gripen version. To do this, we need cooperation from the manufacturer, and we have contacted the company to ask for the information required."


Should Switzerland choose Gripen, one might guess that its chances of being selected by the Netherlands would improve in the event of the Dutch deciding against the F-35.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...e%20To%20Consider%20Super%20Hornet


User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 35, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

2 Gripens have arrived to be based at Emmen for evaluation.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...DSsAAAAP&prod=96587&modele=release


User currently offlineAutoThrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1609 posts, RR: 9
Reply 36, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting Art (Reply 52):
Eurofighter Typhoon Tranche 3, Dassault Rafale Standard F4 and Lockheed Martin Advanced (Block 60+) F-16E/F), de Vries says.

The F-16E/F isn't in the same ligue as the EF T3, Rafale F4 or Gripen. However it will depend heavily on the price which plane will win as Switzerland has a very limited budget.
But the important question will be: What is better 5 F-35/EF/Rafale or 30 F-16 as example for Switzerland?



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 37, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 54):
The F-16E/F isn't in the same ligue as the EF T3, Rafale F4 or Gripen. However it will depend heavily on the price which plane will win as Switzerland has a very limited budget.
But the important question will be: What is better 5 F-35/EF/Rafale or 30 F-16 as example for Switzerland?

Sure EF/Rafale would cost much more than F-16 but more to the point, would cost much more than Gripen to buy and would cost much more than Gripen to operate.

I see it more like this: does Switzerland want to spend its budget on perhaps 30 Gripen or perhaps 20 EF/Rafale? Does Switzerland want 1 squadron of aircraft or 2? I don't see how the budget could buy enough EF/Rafale to make up 2 squadrons.


User currently offlineChecksixx From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1140 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 54):
The F-16E/F isn't in the same ligue as the EF T3, Rafale F4 or Gripen.

Obviously not the league as the EF or Gripen (if you really stretch it), but the Rafale? I'd take a F-16C Block 40 any day of the week over a Rafale.


User currently offlineRheinwaldner From Switzerland, joined Jan 2008, 2286 posts, RR: 5
Reply 39, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting Checksixx (Reply 56):
Obviously not the league as the EF or Gripen (if you really stretch it), but the Rafale? I'd take a F-16C Block 40 any day of the week over a Rafale.

Why is the Rafale less than the F-16C? Does not the Rafale have some Stealth capability (or will get it at least in the future).


User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4952 posts, RR: 1
Reply 40, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting Bengan (Reply 51):
My guess is because they have already evaluated the F-16, it lost out to the F-18 in 1992.

It may have lost against the F-18 then, but it isn't the Super Bug it would've been competing against in this tender had it been shortlisted. It's quite obvious that with the estimated budget, this would be decided on the basis of which platform will provide the most bang for the buck. A putative F-16NG could give the Gripen NG a run for its money. The EF and Rafale are simply too costly for the intended purpose.

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 54):
The F-16E/F isn't in the same ligue as the EF T3, Rafale F4 or Gripen. However it will depend heavily on the price which plane will win as Switzerland has a very limited budget.



Quoting Rheinwaldner (Reply 57):

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 56):
Obviously not the league as the EF or Gripen (if you really stretch it), but the Rafale? I'd take a F-16C Block 40 any day of the week over a Rafale.

Why is the Rafale less than the F-16C? Does not the Rafale have some Stealth capability (or will get it at least in the future).

I concede that the F-16 will be punching way over its weight against the Typhoon, and may be outperformed by the Rafale due to the latter's twin engines (others may stick by the Falcon against it in AtA combat), but the Gripen NG (hitherto still in Demo form) couldn't definitely claim mastery of the F-16, especially if the proposed F-16IN comes to pass.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...la-2008-indian-bids-add-spice.html

Quote:
"The F-16IN variant on offer to India is a derivative of the F-16E/F (F-16U) Desert Falcon delivered to the UAE – arguably the most advanced F-16 ever built, with an Active Electronic Scanned Array (AESA) radar, advanced targeting pods and a new electronic warfare suite.

Acquisition of the F-16 would give India a proven platform, and some commonality with F-16s operated by other regional air forces."



http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/a...aeronautics/products/f16/f16_4.jpg


http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/a...aeronautics/products/f16/f16_6.jpg

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/a...tics/products/f16/F-16Brochure.pdf

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/products/f16/f16futureopts.html

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/news/p...2008/071508ae_f16_farnborough.html



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineTGIF From Sweden, joined Apr 2008, 277 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Update from Saab: Switzerland puts Gripen to the test

Quote:
The Gripens are being flown daily by test pilots from armasuisse and Saab as well as pilots from the Swiss and Swedish Air Forces. The majority of these flights are flown with a Swiss pilot in the front seat, supported by a Swede in the back seat. All flights undertaken during the test and evaluation phase are flown according to a plan specified by armasuisse, with specific tasks for every flight, in order to give the Swiss evaluation team all the necessary information about the extensive operational multi-role capabilities of Gripen, including air defence, air policing and reconnaissance.

...

“The Swiss are a very knowledgable and demanding customer and this very extensive flight and ground evaluation will really put us to the test. Consequently, I am convinced that this is an excellent opportunity for us to demonstrate to the Swiss authorities the real and proven qualities of the Gripen fighter”” says Manne K A Koerfer.

Sound like the Swiss will get a real feel for how the different contenders are performing doing Swiss missions under Swiss conditions. It will be very interesting to see which of the three euro-canards that will come out on top. When can we expect a decision?


User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 788 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting TGIF (Reply 59):
When can we expect a decision?

Early 2009 and a contract by 2010 and entered service by 2012.



It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 43, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Some info about the evaluation process being undertaken with Gripens:

Two Gripen D (two seat) aircraft, together with air and ground crews, are based at the Emmen air base, situated close to the city of Lucerne, where the evaluation process is taking place. The Gripens are being flown daily by test pilots from armasuisse and Saab as well as pilots from the Swiss and Swedish Air Forces. The majority of these flights are flown with a Swiss pilot in the front seat, supported by a Swede in the back seat.

All flights undertaken during the test and evaluation phase are flown according to a plan specified by armasuisse, with specific tasks for every flight, in order to give the Swiss evaluation team all the necessary information about the extensive operational multi-role capabilities of Gripen, including air defence, air policing and reconnaissance.


http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...AP&cat=3&prod=97008&modele=release

Be aware that the article cites Gripen International as source.


User currently offlineRheinwaldner From Switzerland, joined Jan 2008, 2286 posts, RR: 5
Reply 44, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting Rheinwaldner (Reply 57):
Quoting Checksixx (Reply 56):
Obviously not the league as the EF or Gripen (if you really stretch it), but the Rafale? I'd take a F-16C Block 40 any day of the week over a Rafale.

Why is the Rafale less than the F-16C? Does not the Rafale have some Stealth capability (or will get it at least in the future).

Now that the Rafale has left Switzerland after the tests I reawake this thread. I found new food for discussion:
http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/6-52874.aspx
It seems that the most modern F-16 is no match for the Rafale (Rafale scored 6 to 2 against the F-16 Blk 52 earlier this year). It seems that the deciding factor was power and agility (that means that pimping the F-16 with new systems alone will not help).
At the Red Flag exercises the Rafale beat the F-18E with the same score:
http://www.milavia.net/specials/redflag08-4/
These scores can be considered what I would call domination. No wonder Boeing withdraw the F-18E. Too much bomber.

I wonder whether the Rafale may offer the most for the money. It seems that prior the F-35 JSF no US product is on par with the Euro Canards (except the beyond-the-scope F-22).


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 45, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

What about reworking a few dozen of low hour Mirage2000's and equip the with AESA radar e.g. AMSAR.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJiVsDygaM4

Low cost high capability solution & they liked the Mirage III.


User currently offlineAutoThrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1609 posts, RR: 9
Reply 46, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting Keesje (Reply 63):
What about reworking a few dozen of low hour Mirage2000's and equip the with AESA radar e.g. AMSAR.

If we buy something it must be a modern choice and worth the money so it keeps competitive for a while. An upgraded Mirage2000 will not. My guess is still the Gripen (NG) a good design and affordable.

Quoting Rheinwaldner (Reply 62):
I wonder whether the Rafale may offer the most for the money.

Yes the Rafale would be also a good choice IMO. You would get 90% the efficiency of the EF for a much lower price. Negative point could be the absence of the two-way datalink to the Meteor, while the Gripen and EF feature that.



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 47, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 64):
If we buy something it must be a modern choice and worth the money so it keeps competitive for a while. An upgraded Mirage2000 will not. My guess is still the Gripen (NG) a good design and affordable.

I think you can put a bigger AESA in the M2000 then in a Grippen, also the cockpit seems bigger (for big screens). Wait until the budget takes a hit, requirements don't go away. Techies get creative when a firm "no" appears on plan A.



User currently offlineRheinwaldner From Switzerland, joined Jan 2008, 2286 posts, RR: 5
Reply 48, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting Keesje (Reply 65):
I think you can put a bigger AESA in the M2000 then in a Grippen, also the cockpit seems bigger (for big screens). Wait until the budget takes a hit, requirements don't go away. Techies get creative when a firm "no" appears on plan A.

The M2000 lost against the FA-18 in the nineties. Thus the logical step according to your line of reasoning would be getting more (probably used) FA-18C. But that has never been discussed. I think pimping solutions (be it M2000, F-16 or FA-18) are not on the radar.


User currently offlineF27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 49, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 5 days ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting Rheinwaldner (Reply 66):
The M2000 lost against the FA-18 in the nineties. Thus the logical step according to your line of reasoning would be getting more (probably used) FA-18C. But that has never been discussed. I think pimping solutions (be it M2000, F-16 or FA-18) are not on the radar.

one of the reasons they F-18C was selected of the F-16C was they Swiss thought the latter would not be in production anymore when they want more airframes.. well we all know what did happen.

As the F-18E and C have about 2 parts in common, that is not a good option either.

Maybe they will just not buy anything at all (since there will be a referendum about it anyway)


User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4952 posts, RR: 1
Reply 50, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 67):
Maybe they will just not buy anything at all (since there will be a referendum about it anyway)

Or buy something less sophisticated and more in line with the F-5's capabilities.....

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/JF-17_testing.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/JF-17_testing.jpg

I wonder how it would fare in a referendum.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...c-production-of-jf-17-fighter.html

[Edited 2008-11-08 07:13:18]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineF27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 51, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

hey Devilfish,

promoting Chinese industry in several threads are you? You happen to be at that air show the're having?


User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4952 posts, RR: 1
Reply 52, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 3 days ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 69):
hey Devilfish,

promoting Chinese industry in several threads are you? You happen to be at that air show the're having?

Ha, ha, ha.....not really (didn't you notice the smilies?). Just having a go at our European friends' vacillation. Besides, two threads are hardly "several".

And much as I would like to be in an airshow, I have to stay here in L.A. to earn a living.  sigh 



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineF27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 53, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 70):
Besides, two threads are hardly "several".

well I was noticing a pattern and extrapolated from there  Wink

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 70):
And much as I would like to be in an airshow, I have to stay here in L.A. to earn a living.   

hey we all have to lay down money for the mortgage


User currently offlineTGIF From Sweden, joined Apr 2008, 277 posts, RR: 0
Reply 54, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

The manufacturers have been handed a second RFP due in mid April.

Quote:
Bern, 15.01.2009 - With the delivery of the second, updated request for proposal to the three manufacturers Dassault, EADS and Saab, the evaluation of a successor for the F-5 Tiger is proceeding as planned.

In the updated request for proposal the manufacturers are asked to submit an offer for 22 aircraft. In addition, armasuisse sets the budget at CHF 2.2 billion and inquires how many aircraft can be delivered for this amount.

CHF 2.2B is just under $2B which would makes it ~$90M per frame. Shouldn't be a problem for the Gripen and Rafale. What about the EF?

Quote:
In the updated request for proposal the results and data gathered from the ground and flight tests and from the first offer have been incorporated. This includes functions and performances which do not meet the military requirements. armasuisse wants to give the manufacturers the opportunity to propose respective improvements. Improvements are also sought in additional fields.

Has anyone heard any reports of what requirements weren't met and by what aircraft?

Quote:
The evaluation of the tests and updated offers will be concluded at the end of May 2009 with the evaluation report prepared by armasuisse in close cooperation with the Swiss Air Force.

http://www.news.admin.ch/dokumentati...15/index.html?lang=en&msg-id=24901


User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 55, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

I am surprised that the F16 has not been included in the shortlist.

The current model is much more capable than the 1992 version.

Keesje

There was quite a saga concerning the Mir3. Originally they were going to have 100 aircraft which were basically Mir3C's. By the time that the much modified planes entered service, well above budget, they ended up with 54.


User currently offlineStoney From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 199 posts, RR: 3
Reply 56, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 73):
I am surprised that the F16 has not been included in the shortlist.

Because the F-16 lost out to the F/A-18 back then. And I don't believe they could bring what the SAF wants, since they surely will not go out of their way for such a small order. Besides, the SAF wants a fighter which might last for the next 50 years, not one for which the support might soon be gone after the F35 comes online....

BTW, it's quite a lot harder to get the approval of at least half of the voting people of a country, than just have the parliament say yes to a project, like it's done in all of the other countries. That's also a reason why the Swiss fighters are in service for a very loooooooong time.

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 73):
By the time that the much modified planes entered service, well above budget, they ended up with 54.

Yep, that even cost some politicians their job. And I believe that was a lesson learned for every project of the Swiss Air Force since then....
All these modifications were crazy,like the better radar, which meant they had to construct a completely new nose. But the added canards were very effective, and, not to forget, the flying triangle was just the most beautiful plane Switzerland ever saw....  Smile



BAZL - Bundesamt gegen Zivilluftfahrt - royally screwing around with swiss aviation
User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 57, posted (5 years 11 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting TGIF (Reply 72):
CHF 2.2B is just under $2B which would makes it ~$90M per frame. Shouldn't be a problem for the Gripen and Rafale. What about the EF?

I think that 22 would be a problem for the EF once initial spares and support were added to the (say $75 million each) airframe costs.

Rafale? Not as much of a problem as it would be for the EF, I think.

Gripen? 22 within budget should not be a problem IMO.


Quoting TGIF (Reply 72):
Has anyone heard any reports of what requirements weren't met and by what aircraft?

The fact that only 22 aircraft are called for (or fewer) gives me the impression that the budget is likely not open to increase. If all the aircraft met minimum requirements, the Gripen should now be the front runner, shouldn't it?


User currently offlineStoney From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 199 posts, RR: 3
Reply 58, posted (5 years 11 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting Art (Reply 75):
The fact that only 22 aircraft are called for (or fewer) gives me the impression that the budget is likely not open to increase.

The budget is definitively not open to increase... even a small increase away from 2.2 billion sFr. will probably kill any chance a new fighter has with in the vote by the Swiss population..



BAZL - Bundesamt gegen Zivilluftfahrt - royally screwing around with swiss aviation
User currently offlineTGIF From Sweden, joined Apr 2008, 277 posts, RR: 0
Reply 59, posted (5 years 11 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting Art (Reply 75):
If all the aircraft met minimum requirements, the Gripen should now be the front runner, shouldn't it?

If Gripen is the cheapest option and the contenders' don't have a lot of 'bang' that justifies the extra 'bucks', then I think it will have the inside track.

But you never know...
The fact that Austria and Germany uses the EF might play a big part.
Rafale flew an extra ~15 sorties with their AESA during the evaluation and that might give them the edge.

Quoting Stoney (Reply 76):
even a small increase away from 2.2 billion sFr. will probably kill any chance a new fighter has with in the vote by the Swiss population..

Does this purchase get a lot of attention in Swiss media? What is the general opinion among the population? Do they agree that the F-5 needs to be replaced or do they think the F-18 are enough?


User currently offlineStoney From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 199 posts, RR: 3
Reply 60, posted (5 years 11 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting TGIF (Reply 77):
Does this purchase get a lot of attention in Swiss media? What is the general opinion among the population? Do they agree that the F-5 needs to be replaced or do they think the F-18 are enough?

Up until now it wasn't a big theme in the Swiss Media. But it will be one, as soon as GSOA (The People for a Switzerland without an Army) will have enough signatures (means 100'000) for their proposed law to ban any replacement or purchase of fighters for the next 10 years. This will lead to the first nationwide vote on this subject since the purchase of the Hornet back in 1993 which surely will be THE big theme in the media for a long time.
If this law passes, any replacement will be gone, if the vote fails, the next steps will follow. One being a vote in parliament. where they probably will decide to buy the partial replacement of the Tigers, the other being another nationwide vote, which surely will come due to the left parties and the GSOA calling for a referendum (50'000 signatures).

I don't really know what the majority of the Swiss people think, but everyone knows that the F-5s can no longer be kept in the SAF. Whether the 33 Hornets are enough, or whether Switzerland needs another 22 fighters, I guess that's every persons own opinion and pretty hard to actually foresee. Nobody knows what the political situation in 2 or 4 years will be like...



BAZL - Bundesamt gegen Zivilluftfahrt - royally screwing around with swiss aviation
User currently offlineEBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 61, posted (5 years 11 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting Petertenthije (Reply 15):
Would it not be a closer match to replace the F-5 with something like the BAe Hawk or the Aero L-159?

The fact that they want to replace the F-5s doesn't necessarily mean they want a near equivalent to the F-5. It's more likely they will re-equipe the F-5 squadrons but the airplane they need may have far greater capability in the air defense role. I don't see the Super Hornet winning this one ... and I like the Super Hornet. My guess is the Typhoon will get his one, based on performance and its inherent upgrade capability. Rafale was designed as a ground attach airplane with air-to-air secondary capability whereas Typhoon is designed to function effectively in either role.

Grippen wouldn't be a bad choice but does it have the performance capability the Swiss are looking for?



Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently offlineF27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 62, posted (5 years 11 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting Stoney (Reply 74):
Because the F-16 lost out to the F/A-18 back then. And I don't believe they could bring what the SAF wants, since they surely will not go out of their way for such a small order. Besides, the SAF wants a fighter which might last for the next 50 years, not one for which the support might soon be gone after the F35 comes online....

I've talked to people who took part in the competition back then. Apparently one important reason the F/A-18 won over the F-16 was they [the Swiss] presumed the latter would not be in production anymore in a few more years so it would be impossible to buy extra frames. It turned out that happend to the F/A-18 (as the superhornet only has about 2 parts in common with the hornet).

Interesting remark about availibility for the next 50 years. Would be a good reason NOT to go for the gripen as from this moment on there will be as much (or more) F-16's built as Gripens.

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 79):
I don't see the Super Hornet winning this one ..

me neither (since the're not a contender anymore  Wink)

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...rnet-from-swiss-contract-race.html


User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 788 posts, RR: 0
Reply 63, posted (5 years 11 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

The three choices that are in this "race" are all very capable fighters,no question about that,but i have never understood why SAF with a combined fleet of less than 60 if this future order would stay at,lets say 22,would need two different strong and capable fighters.....


It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
User currently offlineStoney From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 199 posts, RR: 3
Reply 64, posted (5 years 11 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 81):
The three choices that are in this "race" are all very capable fighters,no question about that,but i have never understood why SAF with a combined fleet of less than 60 if this future order would stay at,lets say 22,would need two different strong and capable fighters.....

Well getting the people to say yes to 2-3 billion for a new purchase every 15 years is easier than getting all the people to say yes to 6 billion for a new purchase, even if it's just every thirty years....



BAZL - Bundesamt gegen Zivilluftfahrt - royally screwing around with swiss aviation
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4952 posts, RR: 1
Reply 65, posted (5 years 11 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting Rheinwaldner (Reply 62):
It seems that prior the F-35 JSF no US product is on par with the Euro Canards (except the beyond-the-scope F-22).

Some may consider the Eagle "ancient" technology, but Singapore's and South Korea's examples are still very competitive, potent fighters.

Quoting Stoney (Reply 74):
Because the F-16 lost out to the F/A-18 back then. And I don't believe they could bring what the SAF wants, since they surely will not go out of their way for such a small order.

Just because it did doesn't mean that a new version will necessarily lose to the Gripen. And what exactly does the SAF want that LM couldn't provide? I don't think they are too big-headed to ignore a customer's reasonable requirements, specially if those would mean almost $2B in new business.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineR2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2771 posts, RR: 1
Reply 66, posted (5 years 11 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting Stoney (Reply 3):

But in the end, it's only a political question which plane will be ordered and the Swiss people will have the last word if they want to approve the order.... That's the beauty of a direct political system...

I think this says it all. Given that this has to be approved in referendum, the choice will be for the cheapest platform, without any regard for the capabilities or the needs of the next 20 years, and as has been said elsewhere, only taking into account the taxes I'm paying today, not the ones I will pay tomorrow.

This means that the Gripen will win, as it is the cheapest of all.

Incidentally, unwillingly and unknowingly, the Swiss people will have made a good choice in my opinion, as the Gripen packs the best bang for the buck and would be right-sized for the needs of the SAF. So everybody in Switzerland (and Sweden) will be happy in the end.  Smile


User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 67, posted (5 years 11 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting TGIF (Reply 77):
If Gripen is the cheapest option and the contenders' don't have a lot of 'bang' that justifies the extra 'bucks', then I think it will have the inside track.

But you never know...
The fact that Austria and Germany uses the EF might play a big part.
Rafale flew an extra ~15 sorties with their AESA during the evaluation and that might give them the edge.

I'm curious why you should say that Austria and Germany using the EF might play a big part. Ok, they're right next door but so is France using Rafale.


User currently offlineTGIF From Sweden, joined Apr 2008, 277 posts, RR: 0
Reply 68, posted (5 years 11 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting TGIF (Reply 72):
CHF 2.2B is just under $2B which would makes it ~$90M per frame. Shouldn't be a problem for the Gripen and Rafale. What about the EF?



Quoting Art (Reply 75):
I think that 22 would be a problem for the EF once initial spares and support were added to the (say $75 million each) airframe costs.

I think I might have found an answer to my question.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...itzerland-replacing-its-f-5s-04624

Eurofighter

Quote:
EADS’ Eurofighter, for instance, would yield about 10-12 aircraft within those constraints, based on Austria’s EUR 2 billion buy of just 18, later reduced to EUR 1.63 billion for 15.

...

When these factors are added up, the twin-engine Eurofighter will have a difficult task avoiding the perception of over-budget overkill. The plane’s strongest option would probably be a used aircraft sale from an existing partner nation. That may be a viable option, as Tranche 3 purchases look set to strain member country budgets, but cancellation will attract sharp financial penalties. Selling earlier models is one way to ease that strain.

Rafale

Quote:
Its spotty integration with several American weapons used by the Schweizer Luftwaffe could become an issue, and so could its delayed integration with the Damocles surveillance and targeting pod. On the flip side, consistent losses in export competitions (a possible sale to Libya remains its only success) will keep up the pressure on France to offer a very attractive deal. Can Dassault keep its price to about EUR 65 million per plane, including initial training and spares (i.e. 22 aircraft within the budget), and offer weapon integration relief?

Gripen

Quote:
The Saab/ BAE team of Gripen International offers the lowest price point of any of these aircraft, with lease-to-buy options underway in Hungary & The Czech Republic and a strong record of industrial offset deals.

...

An offer of 30-34 JAS-39 C/D aircraft that could mirror Switzerland’s 3 squadrons totaling 33 Hornets may be within the realm of financial possibility.

This pretty much concludes what we previously stated. It looks like the Gripen might be a front runner, unless:

- A Eurofighter partner will sell some partially used Tranche 1 aircrafts at a low price in order to make room for a Tranche 3 order. The Swiss AF would probably need to come to a conclusion that the EF offers needed capabilities, that the Gripen and Rafale don't offer, in order to justify the increased price, compared to the other two.

- The Rafale will include the above stated weapons integration in the price, enabeling joint weapons for Rafale and F-18.

- The Gripen falls short in the technical/operational evaluation.

Quoting Stoney (Reply 78):


Thanks for a thorough explanation!

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 80):
Interesting remark about availibility for the next 50 years. Would be a good reason NOT to go for the gripen as from this moment on there will be as much (or more) F-16's built as Gripens.

The Gripen will hopefully, the MoD indicated this, be operational in the Swedish AF for the next 40 years. That and the fact that Saab have commitments to supply CzAF, HuAF, SAAF and RTAF (and hopefully future Gripen NG customers) with spares for a long time should be enough to convince the Swiss AF.

Quoting Art (Reply 85):
I'm curious why you should say that Austria and Germany using the EF might play a big part. Ok, they're right next door but so is France using Rafale.

That struck me just as I posted my reply. So it would also apply for the Rafale. The reason this is a factor, IMO, would be simplified logistics and training opportunities.


User currently offlineRheinwaldner From Switzerland, joined Jan 2008, 2286 posts, RR: 5
Reply 69, posted (5 years 11 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting R2rho (Reply 84):
I think this says it all. Given that this has to be approved in referendum, the choice will be for the cheapest platform, without any regard for the capabilities or the needs of the next 20 years, and as has been said elsewhere, only taking into account the taxes I'm paying today, not the ones I will pay tomorrow.

I am not sure. The F/A 18 was also affirmed by a referendum and was not the cheapest. The referendum will not be about the type but about the decision whether to buy the previously evaluated jet at all.
SAF fans can be quite relaxed. Usualy in military questions the people's vote follows the recommended proposal, e.g. the official proposal as evaluated by the government.


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 70, posted (5 years 11 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Agreed with above considerations.

The Tigers and F18s are twin engined. How important is that is the current requirements? How many SAF aircraft made it home because they had engine redundancy?

It seems the Mirage III serve long and succesfully in de SAF and I have the feeling the Rafales are more multi role then the EFs ATM. They already have AESA radar.

http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos/Guest/74/


User currently offlineR2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2771 posts, RR: 1
Reply 71, posted (5 years 11 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting TGIF (Reply 86):
- A Eurofighter partner will sell some partially used Tranche 1 aircrafts at a low price in order to make room for a Tranche 3 order.

I agree that something of that sort could give the Typhoon a chance. With Germany and UK having second thoughts / changing their minds about their preocurement commitments, they could try to offload some of their Tranche 1 fighters for a cheap and attractive price. Add to that a decent weapons + support package and the Typhoon could gain some points. Subject of course to Germany lifting its restrictions on northern approaches into ZRH......  stirthepot 


User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 72, posted (5 years 11 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

After the Crossair crash perhaps some flexibility on the Northern approach may be advisable purely on safety grounds.

User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 73, posted (5 years 11 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 90):


After the Crossair crash perhaps some flexibility on the Northern approach may be advisable purely on safety grounds.

Flight 3597 you mean ?


User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 74, posted (5 years 11 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:

Not sure of the flight number.

I mean the BAE146 in 2001.


User currently offlineRheinwaldner From Switzerland, joined Jan 2008, 2286 posts, RR: 5
Reply 75, posted (5 years 10 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting R2rho (Reply 84):
Given that this has to be approved in referendum, the choice will be for the cheapest platform

Without having selected the type the referendum is now confirmed because enough people (>100000) have signed a request for a referendum.

Usually in such cases the people will confirm the intention of the federation. Which means "Yes, buy the new fighter".


User currently offlineHBChris From Switzerland, joined Jun 2007, 17 posts, RR: 0
Reply 76, posted (5 years 10 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting Rheinwaldner (Reply 93):
Without having selected the type the referendum is now confirmed because enough people (>100000) have signed a request for a referendum.

Usually in such cases the people will confirm the intention of the federation. Which means "Yes, buy the new fighter".

Actually it's an initiative that would prohibit the acquisition of new fighters between 2010 and 2019. This means that for the initiative to pass not only the majority of the people in total, but also the majority of the cantons (Stände) need to vote 'I don't want new fighters till 2019'. Small difference, but when it gets close it could be important.

By the way, they continue to collect signatures because not all the signatures already collected are valid. And by the time we get to vote, it will be clear which plane would be ordered.


User currently offlineAustrianZRH From Austria, joined Aug 2007, 1404 posts, RR: 0
Reply 77, posted (5 years 10 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting TGIF (Reply 86):
Eurofighter

Quote:
EADS’ Eurofighter, for instance, would yield about 10-12 aircraft within those constraints, based on Austria’s EUR 2 billion buy of just 18, later reduced to EUR 1.63 billion for 15.

...

When these factors are added up, the twin-engine Eurofighter will have a difficult task avoiding the perception of over-budget overkill. The plane’s strongest option would probably be a used aircraft sale from an existing partner nation. That may be a viable option, as Tranche 3 purchases look set to strain member country budgets, but cancellation will attract sharp financial penalties. Selling earlier models is one way to ease that strain.

However, the Austrian purchase of the EF was completely fu*ked up by the time the socialists re-entered our government. The reduction from 18 to 15 units with 9 pre-used ones (albeit very low hours) by the German Luftwaffe, cancelling (!!!!!) the night-combat package, and downgrading the order from Tranche 2 to Tranche 1actually increased the per-unit price by something like 10%. Well, as an Austrian, I've learned to live with such politic descicions...

If you have a working knowledge in German, under http://www.rechnungshof.gv.at/filead...nd/bund_2008_09/Bund_2008_09_2.pdf you can find the report of the Austrian "Bundesrechnungshof", the Court of Audit, concerning the reduction of 18 to 15 planes. Your hairs will point skywards afterwards  banghead  .



WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 788 posts, RR: 0
Reply 78, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

According to bloomberg news there will not be a decision by end of May. It is more likely by year end now, (replacement of Swiss F-5)  wave 


It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
User currently offlineTGIF From Sweden, joined Apr 2008, 277 posts, RR: 0
Reply 79, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 96):

Seems the Swiss have some issues with their banking system so spending $2B (all though a small cost if you put some perspective on things) on fighters might not look to good in the eyes of the public.

Any news by the way about the referendum?


User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 788 posts, RR: 0
Reply 80, posted (5 years 8 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

According to a Swedish economy site,a rumor says that if the Swiss take 22 Gripen NG,sweden would be interested in buying approx. 50 aircraft of a model called PC-21,don't know what kind of airplane that is,probably to replace the SAAB,s SK60 ...as always,future will tell  Wink

Quoting TGIF (Reply 97):
Any news by the way about the referendum?

Not that i know of...



It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4952 posts, RR: 1
Reply 81, posted (5 years 8 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 32767 times:



Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 98):
According to a Swedish economy site,a rumor says that if the Swiss take 22 Gripen NG,sweden would be interested in buying approx. 50 aircraft of a model called PC-21,don't know what kind of airplane that is

This.....

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Stephen Fox


So, they're looking at a quid pro quo. I wonder if they indicated the same interest for Embraer's Super Tucano in consideration of their F-X2 bid?



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7625 posts, RR: 8
Reply 82, posted (5 years 8 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

A lot has been mentioned about the merits of proposed a/c, here's another question, are the Swiss in any political turmoil with either the EU or the US, are they being pressured by either side for anything, bank secrecy etc.?
If they are under any political pressure for anything I would expect the purchase to be pushed as an offset or olive branch. Yes there may / will e a refrendum, but someone will be offering up a choice and push its merits, so ????????

Military purchases are political, the actual merits of the hardware can always be adjusted on paper.


User currently offlineFlagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 83, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

I am a bit skeptical about that one but I can't help sharing it anyway:
According to the french news paper France Soir, french defense minister Herve Morin would have offered Switzerland the possibility to use french air bases should Switzerland choose the Rafale...



Stephane
User currently offlineFlagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 84, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Flagon (Reply 101):
I am a bit skeptical about that one but I can't help sharing it anyway:
According to the french news paper France Soir, french defense minister Herve Morin would have offered Switzerland the possibility to use french air bases should Switzerland choose the Rafale...

now with the link (in french, sorry...)
http://www.francesoir.fr/argent-arme...ucces-en-rafale-seraient-imminents



Stephane
User currently offlineFlagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 85, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

According to the Swiss blog Avia News, the Eurofighter seems to be ruled out from the competition, which is likely to end up with a Gripen vs Rafale assessment...
I am a bit suprised by this as I would have thought the Eurofighter, with its good performance in climb rate, would be better suited for Switzerland...
Can anyone confirm?

http://psk.blog.24heures.ch/archive/...mbat-nouvelles-infos.html#comments

(link in french, sorry...)



Stephane
User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7089 posts, RR: 4
Reply 86, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Flagon (Reply 103):
According to the Swiss blog Avia News, the Eurofighter seems to be ruled out from the competition, which is likely to end up with a Gripen vs Rafale assessment...
I am a bit suprised by this as I would have thought the Eurofighter, with its good performance in climb rate, would be better suited for Switzerland...
Can anyone confirm?

Can not confirm anything but having seen the Gripen at the Berlin Air Show I must say it is a great airplane and with its lower costs in comparison to the Eurofighter and Rafale it seems for me the best solution for the swiss airforce (also it would be the perfect airplane for the Patrouille Suisse).



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineFlagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 87, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting columba (Reply 104):
(also it would be the perfect airplane for the Patrouille Suisse).

I quite agree with you
regarding the Patrouille Suisse, it seems like (according to the same source) Switzerland does not intend to replace its F5 anymore but is rather interested in progressively replacing its F18's by 2025...

To maintain the costs within an acceptable level, Switzerland apparently wants to buy 12 planes as a first step (instead of 22 as initially planed). They would then buy another 5 to 6 planes every year for 2 to 3 years...

I found something in english, if you scroll down you ll find a translation of an article from "Le Temps" which gives some interesting information:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...afale-News/page99&highlight=rafale



Stephane
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8947 posts, RR: 24
Reply 88, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Should be an easy choice - the Gripen.

It's the lightest and cheapest. Single Engine design - why do the Swiss need twin engines - it's hardly as if they will be taking long overwater trips. It's modern, carries a wide variety of the latest ordinance, is multirole, and is designed to be extremely flexible in terms of ground support. And finally it's maneuverable as hell - I saw it at the Payerne airshow some years ago and it was on par with anything else there.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineFlagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 89, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 106):
Should be an easy choice - the Gripen

Entriely agree with you that in Airshows the Gripen makes impressive displays just like any other modern fighter, however if you read carefully the link I put in my previous post there are some concerns about the Gripen ("the Swedish Gripen is the one which offers the lowest long-term guarantees") which make the choice not that obvious.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 106):
why do the Swiss need twin engines

For the climb rate? I remember seeing an interview of a Swiss Airfoce pilot explaining how important it is for a small country like Switzerland, crossed everyday by a huge amount of air traffic, to have interceptors with very good climb rate...



Stephane
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8947 posts, RR: 24
Reply 90, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Flagon (Reply 107):
For the climb rate? I remember seeing an interview of a Swiss Airfoce pilot explaining how important it is for a small country like Switzerland, crossed everyday by a huge amount of air traffic, to have interceptors with very good climb rate...

The Gripen's climb rate and power/weight ratios are better than the F-18s they have, and even better than the Super Hornet.

It all comes down to cost as well. The Rafale has twin engines, and yes it has impressive numbers, but it is much heavier and more maintenance-intensive. Does Switzerland need a plane with a 2000 Km combat radius? Long legs for an interceptor role.

Assuming that the Rafale is substantially more expensive than the Gripen, I would choose to buy a few more Gripens.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4700 posts, RR: 3
Reply 91, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 106):
Single Engine design - why do the Swiss need twin engines - it's hardly as if they will be taking long overwater trips.

No, but in those mountains, emergency landing sites aren't exactly abundant. Yes, an ejection seat can take care of that, but I believe pilots prefer twin engines.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4952 posts, RR: 1
Reply 92, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 108):
Quoting Flagon (Reply 107):
For the climb rate? I remember seeing an interview of a Swiss Airfoce pilot explaining how important it is for a small country like Switzerland, crossed everyday by a huge amount of air traffic, to have interceptors with very good climb rate...

The Gripen's climb rate and power/weight ratios are better than the F-18s they have, and even better than the Super Hornet.

Here's a single-engined design with excellent climb rate and power/weight ratio, could do Mach 2, very agile and maneuverable, packs a decent load, comparatively cheap, and the perfect replacement for the F-5.....   

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Brian Lockett


It could use the upgraded F-414 engine. Equip it with modern avionics and Northrop's scaleable SABR AESA radar, then you'd have an excellent point interceptor.  

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...veals-new-aesa-radar-for-f-16.html

Now, could NG still build the thing? This tender is taking quite a while.   



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineFlagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 93, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 108):
It all comes down to cost as well

Absolutely, however, there are other parameters in the equation: France promises open access of the french airspace plus associate the Swiss to future Rafale development...

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...afale-News/page99&highlight=rafale



Stephane
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4952 posts, RR: 1
Reply 94, posted (4 years 6 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 5):
It's a shame there's no F-20 Tigershark to offer them now.

How true.

Quoting columba (Reply 86):
(also it would be the perfect airplane for the Patrouille Suisse).

I beg to differ.   Even their livery resembles that of the F-20.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...e-suisse-show-swiss-precision.html

.....albeit with the red and white fields switched.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlinerheinwaldner From Switzerland, joined Jan 2008, 2286 posts, RR: 5
Reply 95, posted (4 years 6 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 92):
It could use the upgraded F-414 engine. Equip it with modern avionics and Northrop's scaleable SABR AESA radar, then you'd have an excellent point interceptor.

IIRC it was evaluated 20 years ago already. It was no winner then why should it now? What ability does it have over F-16 which was evaluated 20 years ago as well (and also was not the winner)?


User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4952 posts, RR: 1
Reply 96, posted (4 years 6 months 4 days ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting rheinwaldner (Reply 95):
IIRC it was evaluated 20 years ago already. It was no winner then why should it now? What ability does it have over F-16 which was evaluated 20 years ago as well (and also was not the winner)?

And I thought I was going overboard with the smilies. In answer to your questions, allow me to direct you to the following threads, and let you draw your own conclusions.....

F-20 Vs F-16 (by Blackbird Jul 7 2009 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)?threadid=108574&searchid=108588&s=f-20+Tigershark#ID108588

F-5 Freedom Fighter: Still The Best..... (by Alberchico Dec 17 2008 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)?threadid=100646&searchid=101351&s=f-20+Tigershark#ID101351

Iran Air Force New Aircraft (Thunder)! (by Shahram16216 Sep 21 2007 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)?threadid=73153&searchid=73567&s=f-20+Tigershark#ID73567

Though I'm a bit biased because the F-20 came out during my generation, quite frankly, I'd give a completely updated version of it better odds in combat than the Gripen (of course, there's no way of confirming that now.) And I wouldn't be too sure of the Gripen NG's future prospects either, given the handful of refurbish/lease, and new-build deals for the current model --- and the stipulation that the Swedish Air Force commit to the NG version first before it could be considered. The Gripen's biggest draw as the lone capable, modern lightweight fighter outside Russia and China at its price point today could diminish once KAI/LM's T-50 (now aimed for the UAE) morph into the F/A-50.

[Edited 2010-06-17 18:17:13]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4952 posts, RR: 1
Reply 97, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

Deja Vu?

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ospects-for-us-trainers-swiss.html

Quote:
"Meanwhile, Chadwick also sought to revive hopes for the Super Hornet sales campaign in Switzerland. Boeing withdrew the fighter from the Swiss competition two years ago, ceding the race to the Dassault Rafale and Saab Gripen.

A public referendum now is expected to decide the future for the tender to replace Switzerland's F/A-18C/D Hornets.

'We believe they will establish a new requirement [after the referendum],' Chadwick says, 'that will allow us to re-enter the competition.'"



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4952 posts, RR: 1
Reply 98, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

After all is said and done - everything is back to square one.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ecision-on-tiger-replacements.html

Quote:
"The Swiss government has delayed until 2015 any acquisition of new fighter jets to partially replace its fleet of 54 Northrop F-5 Tiger combat aircraft.

Defence minister Ueli Maurer says that by the end of 2011 his ministry and the federal finance department will decide whether conditions are favourable for acquisition of new jets in the second half of the decade."



Ho-hum.....   



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 99, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 32767 times:

So what's pending for Rafale? Still in the IAF competition. Brazil? Lula kicked that can down the road. Libya? Khadaffi wants more commercial access to Paris last I heard.


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4952 posts, RR: 1
Reply 100, posted (4 years 3 months 1 day ago) and read 32767 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 99):
So what's pending for Rafale?

Well, there's the UAE, if they could pull through this.....

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4775556&c=FEA&s=CVS

Quote:
"PARIS - The United Arab Emirates (UAE) has requested technical information on the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, a surprise move that turns an anticipated order of Dassault Rafales into a $10 billion competition, an Arabian Gulf defense source said.

'The UAE is asking the U.S. for information on the F/A-18 Super Hornet in the single- and twin-seater version,' the source said. 'It is in the very early stages; it's a preliminary contact. The UAE has opened the door to them.'

UAE authorities approached Boeing about a month ago and were directed to the U.S. government, which is expected to respond in a month or so, a U.S. source said.

It's not clear why Abu Dhabi has suddenly expressed interest in the latest version of the U.S. strike fighter. Technology may be part of the reason, but politics is likely the main cause.

[.....]

The UAE is looking to replace the 63 Dassault Mirage 2000-9s it bought just over a decade ago. As part of Paris' efforts to sell the Rafale, France has offered to buy back the Mirage aircraft, which it would hold in a special-purpose company while looking for an export buyer.

[.....]

Why The Shift?

It was not immediately clear why the UAE is exploring a U.S.-made option.

The U.S. source said the Gulf state is believed to be frustrated over price and the technology offered by France.

UAE authorities have been negotiating with the French government and industry a potential co-development of a more capable 'fifth-generation' model of the Rafale.

Abu Dhabi is being asked to pay to upgrade the Rafale, while the F-18 is already at the desired technological level.

The Gulf source said, 'The Super Hornet has everything we need. We don't need to co-develop or modify it'."



Come to think of it, those Mirage 2000-9s wouldn't be a bad compromise to replace the Swiss F-5s - at a reasonable price, of course.....

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Aldo Bidini
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Nicola Maraspini



[Edited 2010-09-18 17:41:13]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4952 posts, RR: 1
Reply 101, posted (3 years 2 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 29465 times:

Update:

A year later, this blog reported that the budget for the F-5 replacement purchase had been approved, and that a referendum was rejected.....

http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2011/...t-for-22-new-fighter.html?spref=tw

Quote:
"September 28th, the Council of the states approved the budget to order 22 new fighter jets, rejecting the referendum option. If this order is stated in the 2012 defense program, the winner of the contest should be revealed before February 2012."


Another report said the current favorable exchange against the Euro could reduce the cost by as much as SwF30M per frame, which could hasten the deal. The question now is whether it will be included in the 2012 spending list.         

Might this finally be the homestretch of this protracted race?   



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineart From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 102, posted (3 years 2 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 29772 times:

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 101):
"September 28th, the Council of the states approved the budget to order 22 new fighter jets, rejecting the referendum option. If this order is stated in the 2012 defense program, the winner of the contest should be revealed before February 2012."

I wonder if the budget has changed. It was reported as being 2.2 billion Swiss Francs. At 1 Swiss Franc = ca 0.8 euros, that would now be ca 2.65 billion euros. I guess that would cover the cost of 22 Gripen but would it cover 22 Rafale/Typhoon including attendant costs?


User currently offlineArniepie From Belgium, joined Aug 2005, 1265 posts, RR: 1
Reply 103, posted (3 years 2 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 29567 times:

Quoting art (Reply 102):
It was reported as being 2.2 billion Swiss Francs.
At 1 Swiss Franc = ca 0.8 euros, that would now be ca 2.65 billion euros

That's an F in math for you.



[edit post]
User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 788 posts, RR: 0
Reply 104, posted (3 years 2 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 29543 times:

Quoting art (Reply 102):
2.2 billion Swiss Francs. At 1 Swiss Franc = ca 0.8 euros, that would now be ca 2.65 billion euros.

Your figures makes it 1.76 Billion Euros......



It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
User currently offlineart From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 105, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 29410 times:

Quoting Arniepie (Reply 103):
Quoting art (Reply 102):
It was reported as being 2.2 billion Swiss Francs.
At 1 Swiss Franc = ca 0.8 euros, that would now be ca 2.65 billion euros

That's an F in math for you.
Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 104):
Quoting art (Reply 102):
2.2 billion Swiss Francs. At 1 Swiss Franc = ca 0.8 euros, that would now be ca 2.65 billion euros.

Your figures makes it 1.76 Billion Euros......

Sorry.

What an amazingly dumb thing to do - not to look at the 2 figures and realise I had calculated them upside down, inside out, front to back!


User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4952 posts, RR: 1
Reply 106, posted (3 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 29089 times:

Quoting art (Reply 102):

I wonder if the budget has changed.

This report only cites the Army as the main beneficiary of the budget increase.....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...ts-fighter-choice-by-year_end.html

Quote:
"During the fall 2011 session, Parliament decided to increase, beginning in 2014, the army’s spending limit to 5 billion francs. This represents about 600 million francs more than the amount provided in the current financial plan.

In doing so, Parliament wants to ensure the development of the army (DEVA) by increasing its authorized manpower to 100,000 soldiers, and guarantee the filling of existing gaps in equipment, as well as the acquisition of new combat aircraft.
"


This suggests that the price is definitely in Gripen territory. Which other manufacturer would be willing to play in that ballpark for the yearender win.....assuming that indeed they'd announce the decision then?



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineart From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 107, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 28624 times:

Just to complicate matters...

Nov 2, 2011
"RUAG Aviation, which looks after Switzerland’s F-5E/F fleet, says the number of operational F-5s in the world has increased in recent years. The company carried out an analysis of alternatives for the Swiss defense ministry, which is considering putting off a buy of new fighters (Rafales, Typhoons or Gripens) and settling for an F-5 upgrade and another decade of operations."

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...s%20F-5%20Upgrades&channel=defense


User currently offlinerheinwaldner From Switzerland, joined Jan 2008, 2286 posts, RR: 5
Reply 108, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 28599 times:

Just for the record. Several sources claim that the Rafale is favoured by the technical evaluation. As can be seen in the Tagi today: http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/...-unter-Druck-setzen/story/17131363
But the political will to complete this deal anytime soon is far from given. There is a strong opposition within the parliament and within the people (who will very likely be in charge to decide ultimatively).

[Edited 2011-11-03 03:07:50]

User currently offlineAutothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1609 posts, RR: 9
Reply 109, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 28378 times:

Quoting rheinwaldner (Reply 108):
Several sources claim that the Rafale is favoured by the technical evaluation. As can be seen in

Don't believe a word what this newspaper writes.
I have readed other sources where swiss pilots favoured clearly the Eurofighter.(http://offiziere.ch)

Besides, some write the Eurofighter being in a other ligue then the other candidates.

Finally they will choose what Switzerland can afford. And the Gripen would be much more affordable then the Rafale/Typhoon.

1. It makes no sense as F-5 replacement to buy a A/G fighter like the Rafale, a job the F/A-18 can do.

2. Switzerland needs a great interceptor and air superiority fighter. Both the Gripen and Eurofighter(dual channel link to Meteor) better the Rafale in terms of AA weapons integration and the Typhoon in Avionics, agility, acceleration, thrust to weight,RCS etc...

3. The EF and Gripen have been exported successfully(while the Rafale not) and the Typhoon has proved itself on many occasion including CAS/CAP Missions in Afghanistan. Also Typhoon won easily over SU-35 in the Indian competition.

4. The EF or Gripen are used from many airforces, which swiss pilots could do training and learn from.

5.The DASS or Pretorian System on the Typhoon is one of the most capable, highly integrated and automated self defence system, comparable to the F-22 system. A system which would give the edge to swiss pilots over any agressor.

6.Spares and Maintenance(and experiences) can be shared within the nations about the Gripen and Typhoon unlike the Rafale.

There can be IMO only two options : Gripen or Typhoon. If the Rafale wins it will be politically motivated.

[Edited 2011-11-04 05:40:27]


“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 110, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 28162 times:

Quoting rheinwaldner (Reply 108):
Just for the record. Several sources claim that the Rafale is favoured by the technical evaluation
Quoting Autothrust (Reply 109):
Don't believe a word what this newspaper writes.

I cannot read this article since it is in german, but I am surprised indeed, I would have thought the Swiss Air Force would prefer the plane which has the best climb rate, therefore the Typhoon. I wonder what this technical evaluation consists of, I assume it is more than just comparing the aircraft performances?

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 109):
If the Rafale wins it will be politically motivated.

I tend to agree with that, but I think in that kind of deal politic is actually very important.



Stephane
User currently offlineart From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 111, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 28147 times:

New kid should be appearing on the block soon.

"South Korea will begin mass production of an armed model of its supersonic trainer jet starting in 2013, the state procurement agency said Friday.

The Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA) said it will finalize a deal within this year so that the first armed version of the T-50 trainer jet, dubbed the FA-50, will be delivered to the Air Force by August 2013. Sources said up to 60 FA-50 jets will be produced by 2016.

FA-50s are designed to fill the void left by outdated Air Force fighters, such as the A-37 and F-5. Officials say the multirole FA-50 is comparable to KF-16 aircraft."

http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/nati...01000000AEN20111104008100315F.HTML

If this ends up with the Swiss people voting against a selected Gripen/Rafale/Typhoon replacement for its F-5 Tigers, what would be a better candidate than the FA-50? Or Tejas... but then I don't think India has much interest in exporting Tejas.


User currently offlinewvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 517 posts, RR: 0
Reply 112, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 27852 times:

Quoting art (Reply 111):
If this ends up with the Swiss people voting against a selected Gripen/Rafale/Typhoon replacement for its F-5 Tigers, what would be a better candidate than the FA-50? Or Tejas... but then I don't think India has much interest in exporting Tejas.

I don't see either the FA-50 or the Tejas being considered in the swiss bid and other than 3rd world countries I can't see anyone being interested in buying the Tejas either. Neither of the 2 aircraft have any techinal advancements over the aircraft the swiss are considering and they would be a definate step down from a typhoon and a rafale. I look for the swiss of they don't just decide to replace their fleet amd make them all hornets to purchase the gripens.


User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4952 posts, RR: 1
Reply 113, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 27714 times:

Quoting art (Reply 111):
If this ends up with the Swiss people voting against a selected Gripen/Rafale/Typhoon replacement for its F-5 Tigers

Just to clear up things, does this mean that the linked blog report in #101 saying that the Council rejected the referendum intentionally misled readers?

Quoting art (Reply 111):
what would be a better candidate than the FA-50?

It seems you see the same potential in the FA-50 as I did in #96.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/ai...20display-thumb-560x400-146050.jpg

Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 112):

I don't see either the FA-50 or the Tejas being considered in the swiss bid

IF the replacement is not decided indefinitely, the scenario could change dramatically should the Golden Eagle be confirmed for the US T-X requirement. LockMart, by contract, is the designated agent for international and US sales of the T-50 and its derivatives. A T-X win, if it comes to pass, would open a range of upgrade paths and FMS opportunities, and ensure after sales spares and support. Also, the stipulation that the T-50 cannot be more capable than the Falcons is now moot with South Korea upgrading its F-16s. As countries who could afford the Vipers dwindle, LockMart may find a downmarket FA-50 a good seller.

The only caveat being LM might be very tempted to pimp it up so much to raise the price. A big no-no in these times when even First World nations are only willing to pay Third World money for their defence acquisitions.   



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineart From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 114, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 27561 times:

Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 112):
Neither of the 2 aircraft have any techinal advancements over the aircraft the swiss are considering and they would be a definate step down from a typhoon and a rafale.

Exactly. If a plebiscite rejects a deal for whatever is chosen due to the cost, either the Tigers soldier on or a cheaper, more modest aircraft is considered. If you need to replace your car but can't get the funding for a Mercedes, you might then try to get a lower level of funding for a Volkswagen, might you not?


User currently offlineAutothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1609 posts, RR: 9
Reply 115, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 27523 times:

Quoting art (Reply 111):
New kid should be appearing on the block soon.

No way Switzerland would buy this already obsolete plane. As a trainer it might be a great choice though, but that's just not what the airforce needs.

The F-5 or FA-50 have no future in the Swiss Airforce.

Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 112):
Neither of the 2 aircraft have any techinal advancements over the aircraft the swiss are considering and they would be a definate step down from a typhoon and a rafale.

Couldn't agree more.



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlineart From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 116, posted (3 years 1 month 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 27236 times:

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 115):
The F-5 or FA-50 have no future in the Swiss Airforce.

I am sure you know better than me but where the F-5 is concerned, why was the Swiss government trying to get an idea of upgrade costs for the F-5?

Nov 2, 2011
"RUAG Aviation, which looks after Switzerland’s F-5E/F fleet, says the number of operational F-5s in the world has increased in recent years. The company carried out an analysis of alternatives for the Swiss defense ministry, which is considering putting off a buy of new fighters (Rafales, Typhoons or Gripens) and settling for an F-5 upgrade and another decade of operations."

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...s%20F-5%20Upgrades&channel=defense

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 115):
Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 112):
Neither of the 2 aircraft have any techinal advancements over the aircraft the swiss are considering and they would be a definate step down from a typhoon and a rafale.

Couldn't agree more.

Of course Tejas and FA-50 are not in the same league as Rafale / Typhoon but that is irrelevant if you cannot get the Swiss people to sanction a Rafale / Typhoon purchase due to their cost.

[Edited 2011-11-12 20:31:20]

User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4952 posts, RR: 1
Reply 117, posted (3 years 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 26884 times:

Quoting art (Reply 116):
but that is irrelevant if you cannot get the Swiss people to sanction a Rafale / Typhoon purchase due to their cost.

Apparently, the armed forces chief favors a referendum which Parliament had already decided against.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...tzerland-replacing-its-f-5s-04624/

Quote:
"Nov 20/11: Swiss Chief of the Armed Forces Lt. Gen. Andre Blattmann has gone on record in favor of a referendum over F-5 TTE. His stance reflects confidence, saying 'Si nous n’arrivons pas a convaincre le peuple, ce sera de notre faute,' but Parliament has already decided that its fighter purchase would not be validated by a referendum.

Under Swiss law, it’s possible to force one anyway with 50,000 signatures across at least 8 cantons, gathered within 100 days. The Swiss Green Party and their allies have stated that they intend to try. Swissinfo [French].

Nov 14/11: Aviation Week reports that the Swiss government is expected to announce the F-5 replacement program winner around mid-December 2011."



How's the signature campaign coming along?



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineart From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 118, posted (3 years 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 26764 times:

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 117):
Quote:
"Nov 20/11: Swiss Chief of the Armed Forces Lt. Gen. Andre Blattmann has gone on record in favor of a referendum over F-5 TTE. His stance reflects confidence, saying 'Si nous n’arrivons pas a convaincre le peuple, ce sera de notre faute,' but Parliament has already decided that its fighter purchase would not be validated by a referendum.

Under Swiss law, it’s possible to force one anyway with 50,000 signatures across at least 8 cantons, gathered within 100 days. The Swiss Green Party and their allies have stated that they intend to try. Swissinfo [French].

Nov 14/11: Aviation Week reports that the Swiss government is expected to announce the F-5 replacement program winner around mid-December 2011."


How's the signature campaign coming along?

If the Green Party membership is of any substantial size (tens of thousands) I would think that with a bit of networking they could reach 50,000 signatures. According to Wiki, the party had elected representatives in 8 cantonal governments in 2007.


User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 119, posted (3 years 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 26501 times:

I found this Swiss video (in french, with some interviews in english). Link here below:

http://www.tsr.ch/video/emissions/mi...rnisseurs.html

There is an interview of Fernand Carrel, former head of the Swiss Air Force:

"From the pure operational point of view, the Rafale is heading the race, followed by the Typhoon and then the Gripen"
"I think the pilots would like to get the Rafale but that's certainly not for them to decide"

You just need to put these statements into context as Fernand Carrel is clearly a "Dassault enthusiast"...

They say the price of the Rafale is 150millions which looks a bit fancy...



Stephane
User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 120, posted (3 years 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 26497 times:

Assuming that there is a referendum, what do those proposing it hope to acheive?.

User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 121, posted (3 years 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 26432 times:

The link below seems to support the news posted in reply 108 by Reinwaldner:

http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/...-zur-Jetbeschaffung/story/30431448

a google translation available in the Rafalenews forum in militaryphotos.net states about the two swiss air force test reports, "SAF/OT&E Evaluation Report … 2009" and "OT&E Evaluation Report NFA Flight Test 2008":


"
The summary of the second report states: "The Dassault Rafale is the only aircraft that has exceeded the minimum requirements expected in all operating modes"
"

"
The report ends with the request: "The Rafale produced by Dassault is proposed as the new combat aircraft of Swiss Air Force.” Best alternative to it is the Eurofighter.
"

It is also suggested that the Swiss defence minister will likely propose the Gripen due to its cost tomorrow (30th of november) or the 7th of december.



Stephane
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2529 posts, RR: 14
Reply 122, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 26348 times:

http://bazonline.ch/schweiz/standard...d-offenbar-gefallen/story/28653803

It isn't official yet, but the newspapers report that Switzerland selects the Gripen.

The gist of the article:
- they want to buy 22 airframes
- the Eurofighter and the Rafale cost both about CHF 4 billion
- the Gripen can be bought for about 3 billion
- the lower costs were decisive
- anyway, to finance the aircraft the federal government needs to cut in education, science, agriculture and infrastructure

Well, I favored the F-5E/F. 



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineFBWless From Sweden, joined Feb 2000, 198 posts, RR: 0
Reply 123, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 26321 times:

Excellent news for Gripen and SAAB if the inside information is true!

The Gripen manufacturing line is drying up and this order will grant some extension to evaulate future options for Gripen NG.


User currently offlineAutothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1609 posts, RR: 9
Reply 124, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 26307 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 122):
It isn't official yet, but the newspapers report that Switzerland selects the Gripen

That was foreseeable. I still think its the best and most important ...affordable solution for switzerland.



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 788 posts, RR: 0
Reply 125, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 26264 times:

Quoting FBWless (Reply 123):
Excellent news for Gripen and SAAB if the inside information is true!

The Gripen manufacturing line is drying up and this order will grant some extension to evaluate future options for Gripen NG.

Wonderful news   could this influence Sweden to more serious evaluate the NG as it's replacement for the C/D,s?



It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
User currently offlineFBWless From Sweden, joined Feb 2000, 198 posts, RR: 0
Reply 126, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 26167 times:

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 124):
That was foreseeable. I still think its the best and most important ...affordable solution for switzerland.

Not only is Gripen cheaper to buy, it's also cheaper to operate than most other competitors in its class.


User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4952 posts, RR: 1
Reply 127, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 26318 times:

This win reaffirms principles which seek balance between the requirement and solution.....  thumbsup 

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/

Quote:
"UPDATE: Saab has now confirmed the Gripen's victory. Here's the statement:

Saab is both proud and delighted that Gripen has been chosen as the Swiss Air Force's future multirole fighter aircraft.

'The Swiss type-selection confirms that Saab is a market-leader in the defence and security industry and that Gripen is a world-class fighter system that provides the best value for money', says Håkan Buskhe, President and CEO Saab.

The Gripen programme will create a long-term partnership between Switzerland and Sweden. Saab assures Switzerland a long-term strategic industrial co-operation aimed at creating sustainable high tech jobs, transferring technology and generating export business.

Saab stands prepared to start negotiations and await the next steps of the process."



Congratulations to SAAB for a well-deserved victory, and to Switzerland for making the right and prudent choice. Hope they and the Swiss people pursue this to a successful conclusion.

Just to clarify a point.....was it a C/D with AESA, or the Gripen NG which won?

[Edited 2011-11-30 09:58:01]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 788 posts, RR: 0
Reply 128, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 26303 times:

So,will the PC-21 replace tho old SAAB 105 now?? if everything goes thru ?

Sweden = 115 A-D
Hungary = 14 C/D
Tjeckosl. = 14 C/D
SAAF = 28 C/D
Thailand = 12 C/D
Swiss. = 22 NG

[Edited 2011-11-30 10:03:38]


It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
User currently offlineAutothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1609 posts, RR: 9
Reply 129, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 26045 times:

Quoting FBWless (Reply 126):
Not only is Gripen cheaper to buy, it's also cheaper to operate than most other competitors in its class.

True but it doesn't deliver nowhere the same performance compared to its competitors.

Anyway at the end of the day congratulations to SAAB and at least they did buy for once something right.

I never understood why the bought the F-18's.   



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4952 posts, RR: 1
Reply 130, posted (3 years 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 25985 times:

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 128):
So,will the PC-21 replace tho old SAAB 105 now?? if everything goes thru?

There's a good chance of that...as the PC-21 will likely be at the top of offset negotiations.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...n-for-f-5-replacement-deal-365457/

Quote:
"It previously pledged to at least meet a 100% offset requirement linked to a Gripen NG purchase, while Stockholm also expressed possible interest in the Swiss-built Pilatus PC-21 as a potential replacement for its Saab 105 jet trainers."

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 129):

True but it doesn't deliver nowhere the same performance compared to its competitors.

The Federal Council did say that it was a deliberate choice.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ack-after-swiss-gripen-win-365471/

Quote:
"It confirmed choosing the Swedish fighter due to factors including its lower acquisition and maintenance costs, but conceded that the selection marked a decision 'not to position Switzerland at the highest European level as regards the performance of new combat aircraft'."


And once again the vanquished, had plenty to say about the outcome.....

Quote:
"France's Dassault-led Rafale International team has announced its surprise at being eliminated from a Swiss fighter contest, and claimed that the selection of the Saab Gripen NG on cost grounds does not reflect Berne's previous evaluation of its aircraft.

[.....]

In a statement issued late the same day, the Rafale industry team countered that 'The Swiss-tailored Gripen only exists on paper', and claimed that its completion posed 'technical development and production risk significantly increasing the financial efforts required of the Swiss authorities'. It also challenged the customer nation's wider assumptions on cost.

[.....]

'The Rafale's capacities would enable the Swiss confederation to meet its operational requirements with a smaller number of aircraft at an equivalent or lower cost, as was demonstrated during the assessments by the Swiss air force,' it said."



A bit haughty insisting on less number of aircraft when the customer already defined their desired squadron strength.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlinePowerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 571 posts, RR: 1
Reply 131, posted (3 years 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 25965 times:

When do they expect to receive their first one?

User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 788 posts, RR: 0
Reply 132, posted (3 years 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 25937 times:

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 131):
When do they expect to receive their first one?

2015 IF the deal go thru. I read that some parties in Switzerland is trying to stop it since they think that's there no need of a new fighter at all.



It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
User currently offlinemoriarty From Sweden, joined Jan 2006, 190 posts, RR: 0
Reply 133, posted (3 years 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 25908 times:

First of all, great news! I think Switzerland not only made a wise choice but a good one.

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 129):
True but it doesn't deliver nowhere the same performance compared to its competitors.

All this talk about Gripen not having good performance is confusing me. To my knowledge, Gripen performance is very good. Yes, speaking about a couple of key properties like t/w ratio, load etc there's no doubt two engines is better than one. But when looking at performance placed in a larger picture, from value for money, reliability, usability, electronics suite to maintainability the Gripen does very well as I have understood it. So yes, if, in essence, two engines (and the implications of that) are the answer then Gripen does not have it. But I'd say that that pretty much everything speaks to Gripens advantage.

I think, and hope that Switzerland will be very happy with their choice.



Proud to part of www.novelair.com.
User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 134, posted (3 years 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 25879 times:

One could argue that if cost was such an determinent criteria, it didn't really make any sense to run a lengthy and costly competition process against significantly more expensive planes like Rafale and Typhoon.

Congratulation to the SAAB team anyway, the Gripen will look quite nice with swiss markings....



Stephane
User currently offlinefaro From Egypt, joined Aug 2007, 1610 posts, RR: 0
Reply 135, posted (3 years 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 25846 times:

Congratulations to all; the Gripen is by far the best option possible given Switzerland's military stature and the astronomical costs involved in any military aircraft purchase these days.

Faro



The chalice not my son
User currently offlineRheinwaldner From Switzerland, joined Jan 2008, 2286 posts, RR: 5
Reply 136, posted (3 years 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 25856 times:

Congratulations to SAAB!

I think they have won because of the best value for money. It is essential for this deal that it comes across as "reasonable". Because the politicial and public resistance against new military jets is considerable. There will be almost certainly be a referendum.

So the Gripen has indead the biggest chance to become reality. The following factors could add some positive momentum for the Gripen when it comes to the referendum:

- It is the cheapest

- It is from Sweden, a country to which the Swiss have a special affinity because they are perceived as a "small player" too.

- The fact that this similar-minded, socialist, northern country since ages is able, to not only possess a considerable Air Force, but to design even the aircraft by themselves might unlock affirmative forces more than the costly high tech gadgets from France or EADS (which could be perceived as EU).

- It is not from France or Germany. Two countries that might lack some appeal from the Swiss point of view because they represent the EU more than other country. And because Switzerland recently faces a number of attacks from them in different areas (namely LSZH noise and bank customers). Buying client identifying data from Swiss banks on the black market is not the business the Swiss have in mind when they stipulate compensation deals for their military aequisitions.

From our fan perspective it sad on the other hand that the much more exciting Rafale or Eurofighter had no chance in this contest of modesty. My personal favourite would have been the Rafale, first because it has a flavour of that underdog-mentality too (undeserved) and second because Dassault is the provider of the most fascinating Swiss military aircraft ever, the Mirage IIIS!


User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 137, posted (3 years 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 25846 times:

Quoting Rheinwaldner (Reply 136):
Dassault is the provider of the most fascinating Swiss military aircraft ever, the Mirage IIIS!

That's what I think too, that Mirage-3S was legend.

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 129):
I never understood why the bought the F-18's

Was it down to cost issues as well? Was it an attractive offer financially?



Stephane
User currently offlineAutothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1609 posts, RR: 9
Reply 138, posted (3 years 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 25842 times:

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 130):
The Federal Council did say that it was a deliberate choice.....

Yes of course it was a deliberate choice, the Federal Councillor has said he wanted not the most expensive fighter to not cause tensions within the army / airforce. He even said altough the Gripen was last in evaluation campaign it's a good affordable solution and enough for switzerland.

Quoting moriarty (Reply 133):
All this talk about Gripen not having good performance is confusing me. To my knowledge, Gripen performance is very good.

And I agree fully it is a great fighter, and IMO very good looking but if we look at the fact's it's performance is not at the same level then it's competitors and it has not only to do with the engine.



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2529 posts, RR: 14
Reply 139, posted (3 years 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 25751 times:

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 129):
True but it doesn't deliver nowhere the same performance compared to its competitors.

What is the intended purpose of the new Gripen at all? Being in the middle of Europe, we only need aircraft to police the airspace and be able to police nutcases, like the one circling over FRA for hours back in 2003, threatening to crash into a building. Switzerland is too small for fast airplanes anyway. Want to turn our federal parliament into a crater? Start in BSL, 10-12 minutes later you're there.

I've never read any mission specifics for that new aircraft, only that it is compared against the F/A-18C and should be "better" than that one.

Rather, I see potential for a PC-9/PC-21-based close air support aircraft, and some faster reconnaissance aircraft (okay, the F/A-18C could do that job).

I'm just asking for some enlightenment.  
Quoting flagon (Reply 137):
Was it down to cost issues as well? Was it an attractive offer financially?

I remember a TV broadcast years back, one episode of the "Rundschau". It said that Finland got its F/A-18C/D either cheaper, or it procured them "cheaper" by buying relatively less (62 airframes vs the 34 Switzerland bought) despite having a much bigger landmass and even bordering to the Soviet Union. They also said that it could reduce costs by using mobile radars distributed all over the vast forests, though...

The fact that the AF includes the most modern, neeeearly affordable aircraft (Eurofighter) into the evaluation and we still not possess CAS aircraft, transport aircraft with a better range than the Cougar helicopter and air-ground weapons for the EC635 helicopter gives me food for thought. Surely doesn't help dispelling the criticism that the air force always wants the best toys...

[Edited 2011-12-01 04:49:46]


Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 140, posted (3 years 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 25695 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 139):
I've never read any mission specifics for that new aircraft, only that it is compared against the F/A-18C and should be "better" than that one.

I guess that's where some people see a bit of an issue here, as the Basler Zeitung published yesterday two charts extracted from the confidential evaluation reports showing that for some types of mission the gripen didn't score to the minimum required (it scored around 5.5 or so I think), ie it didn't match the benchmark set by the hornet, which was 6 points...



Stephane
User currently offlineAutothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1609 posts, RR: 9
Reply 141, posted (3 years 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 25696 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 139):
Being in the middle of Europe, we only need aircraft to police the airspace and be able to police nutcases, like the one circling over FRA for hours back in 2003, threatening to crash into a building

I fully agree. For that job the Gripen is better suited then the F/A-18.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 139):
Switzerland is too small for fast airplanes anyway.

The question is not speed, it is acceleration. In a QRA situation you want to have your plane's as fast and as soon as possible in the air and at the threat or problem.The Typhoon for example would be within 5min's or less at any point of switzerland the Gripen 10 or less.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 139):
only that it is compared against the F/A-18C and should be "better" than that one.

It is better, but not much.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 139):
The fact that the AF includes the most modern, neeeearly affordable aircraft (Eurofighter) into the evaluation and we still not possess CAS aircraft, transport aircraft with a better range than the Cougar helicopter

Again i agree but, for what do we need a CAS aircraft ?It was however a big failure to dismiss the CASA-295 purchase plans.



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlineAutothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1609 posts, RR: 9
Reply 142, posted (3 years 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 25687 times:

Quoting flagon (Reply 140):
Basler Zeitung published yesterday two charts extracted from the confidential evaluation reports

The released evaluation reports are flawed according to the federal councillor Ueli Maurer.   

http://bazonline.ch/schweiz/standard...-Gripen-abschiessen/story/19277795



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2529 posts, RR: 14
Reply 143, posted (3 years 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 25660 times:

Quoting flagon (Reply 140):

Then I'll look for this chart sometime...  
Quoting Autothrust (Reply 141):
The question is not speed, it is acceleration.

Okay, understandable!

But then, as the Wikipedia says...

"A report in the Swiss news magazine FACTS reveals that in peacetime, the Swiss air force only provides ready-to-take-off aircraft during office hours on working days. The air force staff stated a peacetime 24/7 operational flying status as "mission impossible", due to budget limitations and limited professional (flying) personnel capacity. This did not apply to the air defense radar coverage of which 24/7 peacetime operational capacity was guaranteed."

If this hasn't changed, I don't know how they're solving this impasse by phasing out 42 Tigers and buying only 22 Gripens. But I agree that defense must be as economical as possible - nothing should have the smell of an expensive gewgaw.

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 141):
Again i agree but, for what do we need a CAS aircraft ?It was however a big failure to dismiss the CASA-295 purchase plans.

Infantry/mechanized warfare support. There were times when our jets had an air-ground-role, but admittedly that was more justified in cold war times - destroying Soviet tank columns long before they reach Switzerland.

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 142):
The released evaluation reports are flawed according to the federal councillor Ueli Maurer.

EXCELLENT way of doing damage control when a document was leaked!  Hats off to Mr. Maurer  



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineFBWless From Sweden, joined Feb 2000, 198 posts, RR: 0
Reply 144, posted (3 years 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 25573 times:

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 130):
In a statement issued late the same day, the Rafale industry team countered that 'The Swiss-tailored Gripen only exists on paper', and claimed that its completion posed 'technical development and production risk significantly increasing the financial efforts required of the Swiss authorities'. It also challenged the customer nation's wider assumptions on cost.

Ignoring your competitors is dangerous in defense business. Rafale team has missed the Gripen NG Demo completely! Now of course this is not the final defined NG but much more close than calling the Gripen NG a paper plane.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 143):
If this hasn't changed, I don't know how they're solving this impasse by phasing out 42 Tigers and buying only 22 Gripens. But I agree that defense must be as economical as possible - nothing should have the smell of an expensive gewgaw.

Swedish AF replaced its 300+ SAAB 37 Viggen with 105 Gripen. Talk about downsizing!


User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2529 posts, RR: 14
Reply 145, posted (3 years 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 25560 times:

Quoting FBWless (Reply 144):
Swedish AF replaced its 300+ SAAB 37 Viggen with 105 Gripen. Talk about downsizing!

Is the Gripen that much reliable, or less maintenance-intensive?


Not wanting to hijack the thread, but amusing history: Well, concerning Dassault's complaining that huge costs might overwhelm Switzerland (Devilfish's #130): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History..._the_Swiss_Air_Force#Mirage_affair  (Well, it wasn't Dasault's fault...)

[Edited 2011-12-01 11:45:21]


Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineFBWless From Sweden, joined Feb 2000, 198 posts, RR: 0
Reply 146, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 25378 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 145):
Is the Gripen that much reliable, or less maintenance-intensive?

The plans in the 80's and 90's were to have 204 Gripens in the Swedish AF but with major cutbacks of the Swedish defense and replanning, only 105 Gripens was finally needed.

Maintenance costs are low for Gripen and this has been an important factor in every Fighter RFP although not so often a winning one.


User currently offlinewvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 517 posts, RR: 0
Reply 147, posted (3 years 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 25222 times:

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 141):
I fully agree. For that job the Gripen is better suited then the F/A-18.

The F-18 superhornet if thats what everyone is refering to is over kill for the swiss, the gripen would provide them a low cost modern aircraft for what is needed it would also go to keep the US happy since a good many parts for the gripen including the engines are made by US companies and the aircraft can handle US ordinance in it. Perfect fit in my opinion. It helps keep a neighbor happy and the US happy even if they dont advertise it the US and swiss have always had a good relationship.


User currently offlineart From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 148, posted (3 years 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 25192 times:

Gripen was chosen principally on the basis of cost, it seems, not all out capability. I wonder if Brazil will end up going down the Gripen route. With the air force apparently supporting Gripen selection for budgetary reasons, it only needs the government to choose on the basis of cost, development and production workshare (rather than strategic alliance with France) for Gripen to win.

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26128 posts, RR: 50
Reply 149, posted (3 years 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 24885 times:

Aviation Week has a pretty good story and interview with Swiss Defense Minister regarding the selection process.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...%20Saab,%20Gripen%20NG%20A%20Boost

Basically the Gripen was the best overall option when things like fighter performance and cost were compared.
At the end of the day the Swiss would get the most bang for their Francs with the Saab compared to the more costly and complex peers.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 150, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 23346 times:

That's not going well for the gripen in switzerland at the moment, because irregularities in the Gripen deal are now under deep investigation, and most importantly, Dassault has jumped onto this opportunity to make a cheaper offer than the gripen in proposing 18 Rafales for 2,2 billions of euros. This will make the decision makers under massive pressure and presumably it will be very difficult for the parliament to approve the gripen deal...

Links in french, sorry...

Gripen deal irregularities, investigations:
http://www.24heures.ch/suisse/Tirs-c...on-de-combat-Gripen/story/25957103

new Dassault offer:
http://www.tsr.ch/info/monde/3745043...rafale-pour-seduire-la-suisse.html



Stephane
User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 151, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 23171 times:

Quick traduction from "Le Monde"

"French aircraft maker Dassault Aviation has offered Switzerland to buy 18 Rafale fighter jets for EUR 2.2 billion instead of 22 aircraft from Swedish rival Gripen.

The Swedish jets were recently preferred due to the lower price.

In addition, Dassault Aviation has offered the Swiss government special access to French military infrastructure, most notably to data collected by military satellites."

Well the access to the french military bases and data collected by military satellites has most probably been made by the french government, not by Dassault. There are also sources mentioning access for the swiss to french supersonic training areas, including the over the Mediteranee, and the possiblilty for the swiss crew to stay several weeks in french air bases if they want to



Stephane
User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 788 posts, RR: 0
Reply 152, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 23417 times:

Quoting flagon (Reply 151):
The Swedish jets were recently preferred due to the lower price.

So offer i slightly better plane in less numbers and probably far less flight our/ $ is the solution to make them reconsider the Gripen decision? when they clearly stated that the Gripen is more than god enough for them combined with the F-18.....



It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 153, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 23398 times:

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 152):
So offer i slightly better plane in less numbers and probably far less flight our/ $ is the solution to make them reconsider the Gripen decision? when they clearly stated that the Gripen is more than god enough for them combined with the F-18.....

I don't think it is worth debating here how the plane performances compare to each other and/or what is the best option in terms life cycle cost, industrial, offset...
Let's leave the swiss decision makers debating that behind the scene.

All we can say is that this last move from Dassault and the french government is likely to mess up a bit the decision process on the gripen deal, especially if that eventually ends up being decided via a referendum, because what the average people will retain from all the press noise this last few weeks (rightly or wrongly) is that the Rafale is cheaper than the Gripen whilst displaying the best performance against a Gripen which didn't even meet the minimum requirement, and that the government tried to hide the gripen performance gaps by twicking the selection criteria that was originally set for the selection process.

That's in summary what you could read in the swiss press these last few weeks, so you have to admit that politically speaking that puts the parliament under quite some pressure...



Stephane
User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 788 posts, RR: 0
Reply 154, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 23400 times:

Quoting flagon (Reply 153):
Rafale is cheaper than the Gripen whilst displaying the best performance against a Gripen which didn't even meet the minimum requirement,

Woow....that was all news to me......well,if the Gripen NG seems to be that poor, and the Rafale that cheap and superb,then there would´t be that hard to make a new decision......   



It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 155, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 23387 times:

Quoting flagon (Reply 153):
when they clearly stated that the Gripen is more than god enough for them combined with the F-18.....

Sorry slight correction here: the government (and more specifically the Swiss defence minister Ueli Maurer) made this statement to justify their choice.

Now the parliament has to approve this. The parliament is not forced to believe Ueli Maurer...

For information I believe the parliament itself has asked for a in depth investigation of the selection process as it would appear they have been leaks from source close to the air force selection process revealing irregularities in the way it was carried out. Amongst other things Saab would have approached Ueli Maurer directly to seduce him with an attractive industrial partnership, which constitutes a breach to the rules. Also as said before the relative weighting of the selection criteria would have modified in order to make gripen look not so underperforming as it actually was according to the original rating.

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 154):
then there would´t be that hard to make a new decision

not so fast, I think the gripen still has some good chance, at worst case the whole F5 fleet replacement program will be scraped for now, then resurected later and Saab may come back with a more agressive offer?

enough speculation, let's just wait and see..



Stephane
User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 788 posts, RR: 0
Reply 156, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 23384 times:

Quoting flagon (Reply 155):
enough speculation, let's just wait and see..

There will always be speculations from all sides but i agree with you,let´s Wait and see..... and then continue with more  



It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
User currently offlineMillwallSean From Singapore, joined Apr 2008, 1293 posts, RR: 6
Reply 157, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 23114 times:

I find it interesting that when the Gripen wins a deal for beingt the best overall package including price its despite bad test results.
When the rafaelse fails hit and high tests etc in india and i quote "offered the cheapest price" the Rafaelse is a great airplane.

Lets put it this way, different planes different missions, different costs.
Both has to sell on price and there is a reason for that.

Desperation always affects price and the fewer deals a plane has won the higher the discounts. Rafale hasnt exactly raked in the export orders the last decade...



No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4952 posts, RR: 1
Reply 158, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 23055 times:

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 157):
Desperation always affects price and the fewer deals a plane has won the higher the discounts. Rafale hasnt exactly raked in the export orders the last decade...

Is that how one always managed to be the lowest bidder?   After its MMRCA selection, the Rafale could be the odds on pick to get the exports for this decade.

http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/media/rafale/images/90860/dassault-rafale-flying-30k-hours.jpg

[Edited 2012-02-03 08:39:33]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineflagon From France, joined May 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 159, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 22740 times:

According to Agence France Press, Saab are cutting the price of the Gripen

"Saab to cut jet fighter price for Swiss:... Swedish defence firm Saab will cut the price on its Gripen fighter jet to ensure that it wins a Swiss order after French planemaker Dassault....etc"

funny



Stephane
User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4952 posts, RR: 1
Reply 160, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 22736 times:

The haggling begins.      

I wonder who would blink first?   



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield