Art From Lebanon, joined Feb 2005, 2937 posts, RR: 0 Posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
BERNE (AP)--The Swiss Federal Defense department has invited four airplane constructers, Boeing, Dassault, EADS and Gripen International to present offers by mid-May for the partial replacement of the country's Tiger fighter planes.
Lockheed Martin not shortlisted? I would have thought their next generation F-16 a "natural" candidate and a good single-engine match to the Gripen.....
Maybe LM is pushing for the JSF. Or could this be more of the same, and just an "upsize" to the Super Bug?
AirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2529 posts, RR: 6 Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
This deal can easily be summed in just two words: Super Hornet
Stoney From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 199 posts, RR: 4 Reply 3, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting AirRyan (Reply 2): This deal can easily be summed in just two words: Super Hornet
I don't really think so. Maybe the super hornet is too much of a plane for Switzerland right now in a situation where the main role of Swiss Air Force is policing the skies and not offering a complete air defense. It's about replacing the aging fleet of F-5s which consisted of 110 planes and are now down to less than 50 planes in service. Considering that there will surely be a referendum and a vote by the Swiss people, the budget will be limited, probably to about the same amount the purchase of the hornet was, meaning max 3 billion. So it's more a political question and a question which manufacturer offers the best deal for the Swiss Air Force to be able to fulfill it's role. Sometimes more planes, event though less capable, are worth more than a few machines which would be superior, but don't offer enough time on station in little numbers...
But in the end, it's only a political question which plane will be ordered and the Swiss people will have the last word if they want to approve the order.... That's the beauty of a direct political system...
Greetz
Stoney
BAZL - Bundesamt gegen Zivilluftfahrt - royally screwing around with swiss aviation
EBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 2 Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 4): Replace F-5 with F-18 seems like a overkill for sure,F-16 ore Gripen would be the natural choice.
Some info on gripens homepage.
Typhoon and Rafale would be overkill as well. Gripen has grown increasingly popular over the years and it wouldn't come as any surprise to see the Swiss go the Gripen route. It's a shame there's no F-20 Tigershark to offer them now.
Art From Lebanon, joined Feb 2005, 2937 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 5): Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 4):
Replace F-5 with F-18 seems like a overkill for sure,F-16 ore Gripen would be the natural choice.
Some info on gripens homepage.
Typhoon and Rafale would be overkill as well.
Yes, it strikes me as strange that they should want to consider anything "above" F-16/Gripen. Why waste their own time doing this (as well as the manufacturers' time.)
SAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 693 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Bengan (Reply 7): Why not? Having more bidders at the table will push the price down.
I think that these bidders play in two categories here,first you have Typhoon,Rafale and the F-18,and the second categories would be the F-16 and the Gripen....just for the country to decide what kind of fighter the want ore need.
F27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1113 posts, RR: 5 Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting AirRyan (Reply 2): This deal can easily be summed in just two words: Super Hornet
HAHAHA
The're not really happy with their current hornets.
BTW, phasing out the F-5 doesn't mean they will get an equally sized plane in return. It makes a lot of sense they will get a type which will also be able to replace the F-18 later on, meaning, buying in batches.
SAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 693 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Stoney (Reply 10): And FYI, the F-16 is no option, there won't even be a proposal with that aircraft....
Well,there is ore was anyway about 80 F-5 in Swiz Airforce.....will another fighter replace every unit almost everything feels like a overkill,above that they also have 30+ of F-18,s......
Art From Lebanon, joined Feb 2005, 2937 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
From the easybourse article:
"The DDPS could possibly make an armament program valued at approximately CHF2.2 billion available by 2010 for the purchase of the jets and the necessary PC-21 training aircraft."
US$1=CHF1.1, so possibly a budget of about US$2 billion to replace the F-5's.
From what I have read on a number of sites, the requirement is for air defence. I have also read that the Super Hornet is not under consideration, so it looks like the F-15, Rafale, Typhoon and Gripen are under consideration.
Given the size of the country - perhaps 15 min maximum to take off and fly from one end of the country to the other - I don't see that range is of any relevance. Given the mooted budget, it appears there is only enough money to buy Gripen unless the Swiss Air Force would be prepared to have one very small squadron of F-15/Rafale/Typhoon. Back of envelope calculation for F-15/Rafale/Typhoon: 2 x trainer @US$200 million + 8 x fighter @ US$200 million = US$2 billion
Stoney From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 199 posts, RR: 4 Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 11): it has something to do with buying the aircraft cheap (fly-away cost) and pay through your nose for everything else
It's true that there are cost to upgrade or better said to keep the planes up to date practically yearly. I think next year there are like 500 million budgeted just for the hornets....
Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 12): Well,there is ore was anyway about 80 F-5 in Swiz Airforce.....will another fighter replace every unit almost everything feels like a overkill,above that they also have 30+ of F-18,s......
It will not be a one on one replacement. AFAIK the Swiss Air Force will try to get about 30 new planes, so they can keep their 6 squadrons of fighters, three hornet squadrons and three new ones. The trainers will not be in the same tranche of the budget, 6 are already bought and are being introduced right now.
BTW the RFP is only for the Typhoon, the Rafale, the Super Hornet and the Gripen, no F-16 and no F-15.....
BAZL - Bundesamt gegen Zivilluftfahrt - royally screwing around with swiss aviation
Wvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 516 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
I would think that ordering a smaller number of F-18 Superhornets would more likley fit their system, yes I do think its too much of an aircraft for what they need but they already have several F-18C models, so cross training pilots would be minimal. Also the older F-18's they have now could take over the F-5's roll and leave the front line stuff up to the new superhornets. Just something to think about.
Columba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 6799 posts, RR: 5 Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
The Swiss Air Force has two choices in my opinion:
1) Look for a real "Tiger" replacement which would only be the Gripen in size
or
2) Go for a multi-role aircraft that will replace both the Tiger and the Hornet in a few years, best choices here would be the Rafale or the Eurofighter. Since Austria and Germany have the Eurofighter a three nation deal on maintenance , training and parts might be a good sales argument by EADS.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
EBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 2 Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
I do agree with that question. Everybody is talking about the Gripen/superhornet and Typhoon, and even about others ruled out from the RFP, but no one mention the Rafale.
Please any opinion and estimation about the chances of the French fighter in this RFP would be welcome.
SandroZRH From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 3382 posts, RR: 51 Reply 21, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Stoney (Reply 3): Considering that there will surely be a referendum and a vote by the Swiss people, the budget will be limited
Excellent point.
Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 9): The're not really happy with their current hornets.
They're not indeed. Half of the fleet is constantly grounded due to technical issues, and the "cooperation" with the US hasn't exactly been what Switzerland expected it to be, hence i see very little chance for the Superhornet, needless to say it would be overkill anyway. And last but not least, it would make us even more dependant on the US's goodwill, which needs to be avoided.
Quoting Stoney (Reply 10): Who said that? Would be the first time I heard this statement.
huh? It's a known and widely discussed fact that they're not happy with the Hornets. They are happy with the aircraft's performance in flight, but not so much with its reliability, which has been awful in the last couple of months to say the least, and as mentioned before, the cooperation with the US.
Personally, I'm hoping for the Gripen. A fighter fully capable to fulfill the Swiss air force's mission at relatively low cost built by a country that Switzerland has excellent relations with. Second on my list would be the Rafale. The Typhoon and the Superhornet would be too expensive and definately overkill.
People need to remember that it's not like Switzerland is going to war anytime soon. The Swiss Air Force's mission is a pure air-police mission over Swiss territory, and therefore we don't need an expensive totally state of the art fighter. Even the F5 is still very capable to fulfill the mission, the reason it will be replaced is purely its age, not its capabilities.
Stoney From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 199 posts, RR: 4 Reply 22, posted (5 years 3 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 39): People need to remember that it's not like Switzerland is going to war anytime soon. The Swiss Air Force's mission is a pure air-police mission over Swiss territory, and therefore we don't need an expensive totally state of the art fighter. Even the F5 is still very capable to fulfill the mission, the reason it will be replaced is purely its age, not its capabilities.
Well, the F-5s aren't capable of operating in all weather conditions, so they're not as capable as one would think. Another point is the electronic updates the Hornets received, giving them the ability to fulfill aspects like look-down capability, resulting in the fact that for example during WEF-style operations, less mobile radar stations on the ground etc are needed.
But I guess if the SAF didn't have the age problem with the tigers they would rather keep them in their present number as an add-on to the Hornet fleet than get a smaller number of replacements.
Even though a war isn't probable in the near future, never say never. Nobody knows, and it's easier to keep the knowledge and the capability on a minimum level, than to learn everything from scratch, when it probably would be too late anyway..
From my point of view it's not really important which plane is bought as a tiger replacement, because a huge part of that decision is political and you never know what or how our kindergarden, officially known as parliament, will decide, but rather that one plane is bought in sufficient numbers to give our Air Force enough means to do their job.
BAZL - Bundesamt gegen Zivilluftfahrt - royally screwing around with swiss aviation
Well, let the guessing begin: What could be the real reason behind this decision of boeing? What I heard was that the plane was too big to fit the infrastructure which was practically completely renewed for the hornet, but I don't know if that's true.
Another possibility I could imagine is that boeing doesn't think the 2.2b of this order is worth enough to really try selling stuff to Switzerland.
Anyway, I think the super hornet would have looked pretty cool flying around Switzerland, sad that it'll never get to that.
AutoThrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1480 posts, RR: 8 Reply 25, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 39): Personally, I'm hoping for the Gripen. A fighter fully capable to fulfill the Swiss air force's mission at relatively low cost built by a country that Switzerland has excellent relations with. Second on my list would be the Rafale. The Typhoon and the Superhornet would be too expensive and definately overkill.
I also bet for the Gripen its a good allround plane at a affordable price. However the question will be how much air superiority do we want for the money. Its speaks also for the Gripen that the METEOR/IRIS-T can be used.
But one thing is not quite true, while the aquisition costs are very high for the EF it has same or lower maintenance cost and higher reliability then the rest of the proposed fighters due to unique integrated health monitoring system and symplified systems.
Art From Lebanon, joined Feb 2005, 2937 posts, RR: 0 Reply 26, posted (4 years 12 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Art (Thread starter): BERNE (AP)--The Swiss Federal Defense department has invited four airplane constructers, Boeing, Dassault, EADS and Gripen International to present offers by mid-May for the partial replacement of the country's Tiger fighter planes.
Anyone heard if the remaining 3 constructors have presented their offers?
ArniePie From Belgium, joined Aug 2005, 1265 posts, RR: 1 Reply 27, posted (4 years 12 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Maybe the biggest advantage the Gripen offers is its commonality with their F18 fighter.
They basically use the same engine (the RM12 is in fact a direct derivative of the GE-F404) and a ,as I understand, the data-link is NATO compatible and its able to use most of the Hornet's weaponry.
On a side-note I wish the BAF (Belgian air force) would go for the next GEN Gripen (with AESA if possible) , it's cheap enough but still very versatile and modern and most important of all ,can be bought in adequate numbers.
The Swiss requirement is for an F-5E Tiger II replacement and a formal Request for Proposals (RfP) will be issued in July. Initial responses to a Request for Information (RfI) are already being thoroughly evaluated at an air force, industrial and governmental level. The Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassault Rafale and Saab Gripen are each in the running. Earlier this year Boeing withdrew the Super Hornet on the grounds that it exceeded the Swiss requirements by too wide a margin. Where that leaves the remaining twin-engined heavyweight contenders is anyone's guess.
...
Later this summer a series of flight evaluations will be held in-country. Bidders will submit their best and final offers (BAFOs) in early 2009, with a contract anticipated in mid-2009.
I find this especially interesting:
"...Boeing withdrew the Super Hornet on the grounds that it exceeded the Swiss requirements by too wide a margin."
With EF and Rafale are roughly the same size (or are there other issues?), why didn't the Swiss invite the F-16 to come out and play? I think it would suit the Switzerland just fine...
SAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 693 posts, RR: 0 Reply 29, posted (4 years 11 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
In July, Saab plans to show the plane in Switzerland.
The Swiss military is about to purchase new aircraft and the Swiss are also interested in purchasing equipment, support systems, and maintenance. The Jas 39 Gripen is one of the planes under consideration.
In January Switzerland requested on which Saab is now working. But the exact number of planes Switzerland is interested in purchasing remains secret.
"The Swiss are now working out a procurement order and will conduct service tests in Switzerland of those planes in which they have an interest," said Lasse Jansson, a spokesperson with Saab's Gripen International sales company.
"We will be travelling down to Switzerland with the Gripen in July for an evaluation. It will continue for a short while into August."
Following the evaluation, a decision will be taken regarding the submission of a formal bid.
Other planes in the competition include the French Rafale and the Eurofighter.
source : thelocal.se
Other Swedish media says that somewhere between 20 to 30 fighters are evaluated
Flight and Ground Tests with the Three Candidates for the Partial Tiger Replacement (TTE) During the Second Half of 2008
(Source: armasuisse Swiss Defence Procurement Agency; dated June 17, web-posted June 23, 2008)
Quote: "During the second half of 2008 flight and ground tests for the succession of the F-5E/F Tiger – the so-called Partial Tiger Replacement (TTE) will take place at the Emmen airbase. For about four weeks, each of the three candidates – Gripen, Rafale and Eurofighter – will be tested in a severe selection process. armasuisse is in charge of the evaluation and will perform it together with the Swiss Air Force.
The flight and ground tests will begin on 28 July with the first candidate, the Swedish Gripen. This aircraft will be followed by the French Rafale, and the last flight and ground tests with the Eurofighter will take place at the beginning of December."
DEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4429 posts, RR: 1 Reply 32, posted (4 years 11 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Art (Reply 49): Perhaps I misread the article but I don't see any reference to 33.
It was in the red AFP headlines which disappear after a while. You'd see it if you do a search of the leader on the d-a site, or if you are a subscriber.
Bengan From Sweden, joined Jul 2007, 42 posts, RR: 0 Reply 33, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 48):
Quoting TGIF (Reply 46):
why didn't the Swiss invite the F-16 to come out and play? I think it would suit the Switzerland just fine...
Wary of a tight contest?
My guess is because they have already evaluated the F-16, it lost out to the F-18 in 1992.
Todays news:
Quoting Åke Svensson, Saab: Switzerland is yet another example of the strong interest for Gripen worldwide. Our proposal meets all the requirements put forward by armasuisse. The Gripen proposal offers Switzerland the most cost-effective and proportionate replacement for the F-5E/F and moreover a perfect force fit with existing F/A-18 C/D. The proposal also features long-term viable industrial co-operation at 100 per cent of the contract value.
Art From Lebanon, joined Feb 2005, 2937 posts, RR: 0 Reply 34, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
As an aside, Gripen has joined the other aircraft being evaluated as F-35 alternatives by the Netherlands. From Aviation Week:
The defense ministry will, however, consider the Gripen Next Generation as an alternative option, alongside the three existing alternatives (the Eurofighter Typhoon Tranche 3, Dassault Rafale Standard F4 and Lockheed Martin Advanced (Block 60+) F-16E/F), de Vries says.
"In our previous evaluation, the Saab Gripen was deselected because it was found to have considerable shortcomings in range, armament, self-protection, interoperability and sensors," de Vries says.
"Saab has recently announced that a new version of Gripen is being developed, Gripen Next Generation, information on which so far is limited to what has been published in open sources. We will investigate this Next Generation variant in the coming months, particularly to assess the developments compared with the previous Gripen version. To do this, we need cooperation from the manufacturer, and we have contacted the company to ask for the information required."
Should Switzerland choose Gripen, one might guess that its chances of being selected by the Netherlands would improve in the event of the Dutch deciding against the F-35.
AutoThrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1480 posts, RR: 8 Reply 36, posted (4 years 10 months 18 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Art (Reply 52): Eurofighter Typhoon Tranche 3, Dassault Rafale Standard F4 and Lockheed Martin Advanced (Block 60+) F-16E/F), de Vries says.
The F-16E/F isn't in the same ligue as the EF T3, Rafale F4 or Gripen. However it will depend heavily on the price which plane will win as Switzerland has a very limited budget.
But the important question will be: What is better 5 F-35/EF/Rafale or 30 F-16 as example for Switzerland?
Art From Lebanon, joined Feb 2005, 2937 posts, RR: 0 Reply 37, posted (4 years 10 months 14 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 54): The F-16E/F isn't in the same ligue as the EF T3, Rafale F4 or Gripen. However it will depend heavily on the price which plane will win as Switzerland has a very limited budget.
But the important question will be: What is better 5 F-35/EF/Rafale or 30 F-16 as example for Switzerland?
Sure EF/Rafale would cost much more than F-16 but more to the point, would cost much more than Gripen to buy and would cost much more than Gripen to operate.
I see it more like this: does Switzerland want to spend its budget on perhaps 30 Gripen or perhaps 20 EF/Rafale? Does Switzerland want 1 squadron of aircraft or 2? I don't see how the budget could buy enough EF/Rafale to make up 2 squadrons.
Rheinwaldner From Switzerland, joined Jan 2008, 2066 posts, RR: 6 Reply 39, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Checksixx (Reply 56): Obviously not the league as the EF or Gripen (if you really stretch it), but the Rafale? I'd take a F-16C Block 40 any day of the week over a Rafale.
Why is the Rafale less than the F-16C? Does not the Rafale have some Stealth capability (or will get it at least in the future).
DEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4429 posts, RR: 1 Reply 40, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Bengan (Reply 51): My guess is because they have already evaluated the F-16, it lost out to the F-18 in 1992.
It may have lost against the F-18 then, but it isn't the Super Bug it would've been competing against in this tender had it been shortlisted. It's quite obvious that with the estimated budget, this would be decided on the basis of which platform will provide the most bang for the buck. A putative F-16NG could give the Gripen NG a run for its money. The EF and Rafale are simply too costly for the intended purpose.
Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 54): The F-16E/F isn't in the same ligue as the EF T3, Rafale F4 or Gripen. However it will depend heavily on the price which plane will win as Switzerland has a very limited budget.
Quoting Rheinwaldner (Reply 57):
Quoting Checksixx (Reply 56):
Obviously not the league as the EF or Gripen (if you really stretch it), but the Rafale? I'd take a F-16C Block 40 any day of the week over a Rafale.
Why is the Rafale less than the F-16C? Does not the Rafale have some Stealth capability (or will get it at least in the future).
I concede that the F-16 will be punching way over its weight against the Typhoon, and may be outperformed by the Rafale due to the latter's twin engines (others may stick by the Falcon against it in AtA combat), but the Gripen NG (hitherto still in Demo form) couldn't definitely claim mastery of the F-16, especially if the proposed F-16IN comes to pass.....
Quote: "The F-16IN variant on offer to India is a derivative of the F-16E/F (F-16U) Desert Falcon delivered to the UAE – arguably the most advanced F-16 ever built, with an Active Electronic Scanned Array (AESA) radar, advanced targeting pods and a new electronic warfare suite.
Acquisition of the F-16 would give India a proven platform, and some commonality with F-16s operated by other regional air forces."
Quote: The Gripens are being flown daily by test pilots from armasuisse and Saab as well as pilots from the Swiss and Swedish Air Forces. The majority of these flights are flown with a Swiss pilot in the front seat, supported by a Swede in the back seat. All flights undertaken during the test and evaluation phase are flown according to a plan specified by armasuisse, with specific tasks for every flight, in order to give the Swiss evaluation team all the necessary information about the extensive operational multi-role capabilities of Gripen, including air defence, air policing and reconnaissance.
...
“The Swiss are a very knowledgable and demanding customer and this very extensive flight and ground evaluation will really put us to the test. Consequently, I am convinced that this is an excellent opportunity for us to demonstrate to the Swiss authorities the real and proven qualities of the Gripen fighter”” says Manne K A Koerfer.
Sound like the Swiss will get a real feel for how the different contenders are performing doing Swiss missions under Swiss conditions. It will be very interesting to see which of the three euro-canards that will come out on top. When can we expect a decision?
Art From Lebanon, joined Feb 2005, 2937 posts, RR: 0 Reply 43, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Some info about the evaluation process being undertaken with Gripens:
Two Gripen D (two seat) aircraft, together with air and ground crews, are based at the Emmen air base, situated close to the city of Lucerne, where the evaluation process is taking place. The Gripens are being flown daily by test pilots from armasuisse and Saab as well as pilots from the Swiss and Swedish Air Forces. The majority of these flights are flown with a Swiss pilot in the front seat, supported by a Swede in the back seat.
All flights undertaken during the test and evaluation phase are flown according to a plan specified by armasuisse, with specific tasks for every flight, in order to give the Swiss evaluation team all the necessary information about the extensive operational multi-role capabilities of Gripen, including air defence, air policing and reconnaissance.
Rheinwaldner From Switzerland, joined Jan 2008, 2066 posts, RR: 6 Reply 44, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Rheinwaldner (Reply 57): Quoting Checksixx (Reply 56):
Obviously not the league as the EF or Gripen (if you really stretch it), but the Rafale? I'd take a F-16C Block 40 any day of the week over a Rafale.
Why is the Rafale less than the F-16C? Does not the Rafale have some Stealth capability (or will get it at least in the future).
Now that the Rafale has left Switzerland after the tests I reawake this thread. I found new food for discussion: http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/6-52874.aspx
It seems that the most modern F-16 is no match for the Rafale (Rafale scored 6 to 2 against the F-16 Blk 52 earlier this year). It seems that the deciding factor was power and agility (that means that pimping the F-16 with new systems alone will not help).
At the Red Flag exercises the Rafale beat the F-18E with the same score: http://www.milavia.net/specials/redflag08-4/
These scores can be considered what I would call domination. No wonder Boeing withdraw the F-18E. Too much bomber.
I wonder whether the Rafale may offer the most for the money. It seems that prior the F-35 JSF no US product is on par with the Euro Canards (except the beyond-the-scope F-22).
AutoThrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1480 posts, RR: 8 Reply 46, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Keesje (Reply 63): What about reworking a few dozen of low hour Mirage2000's and equip the with AESA radar e.g. AMSAR.
If we buy something it must be a modern choice and worth the money so it keeps competitive for a while. An upgraded Mirage2000 will not. My guess is still the Gripen (NG) a good design and affordable.
Quoting Rheinwaldner (Reply 62): I wonder whether the Rafale may offer the most for the money.
Yes the Rafale would be also a good choice IMO. You would get 90% the efficiency of the EF for a much lower price. Negative point could be the absence of the two-way datalink to the Meteor, while the Gripen and EF feature that.
Keesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 47, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 64): If we buy something it must be a modern choice and worth the money so it keeps competitive for a while. An upgraded Mirage2000 will not. My guess is still the Gripen (NG) a good design and affordable.
I think you can put a bigger AESA in the M2000 then in a Grippen, also the cockpit seems bigger (for big screens). Wait until the budget takes a hit, requirements don't go away. Techies get creative when a firm "no" appears on plan A.
Rheinwaldner From Switzerland, joined Jan 2008, 2066 posts, RR: 6 Reply 48, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Keesje (Reply 65): I think you can put a bigger AESA in the M2000 then in a Grippen, also the cockpit seems bigger (for big screens). Wait until the budget takes a hit, requirements don't go away. Techies get creative when a firm "no" appears on plan A.
The M2000 lost against the FA-18 in the nineties. Thus the logical step according to your line of reasoning would be getting more (probably used) FA-18C. But that has never been discussed. I think pimping solutions (be it M2000, F-16 or FA-18) are not on the radar.
F27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1113 posts, RR: 5 Reply 49, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Rheinwaldner (Reply 66): The M2000 lost against the FA-18 in the nineties. Thus the logical step according to your line of reasoning would be getting more (probably used) FA-18C. But that has never been discussed. I think pimping solutions (be it M2000, F-16 or FA-18) are not on the radar.
one of the reasons they F-18C was selected of the F-16C was they Swiss thought the latter would not be in production anymore when they want more airframes.. well we all know what did happen.
As the F-18E and C have about 2 parts in common, that is not a good option either.
Maybe they will just not buy anything at all (since there will be a referendum about it anyway)
promoting Chinese industry in several threads are you? You happen to be at that air show the're having?
Ha, ha, ha.....not really (didn't you notice the smilies?). Just having a go at our European friends' vacillation. Besides, two threads are hardly "several".
And much as I would like to be in an airshow, I have to stay here in L.A. to earn a living.
TGIF From Sweden, joined Apr 2008, 273 posts, RR: 0 Reply 54, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
The manufacturers have been handed a second RFP due in mid April.
Quote: Bern, 15.01.2009 - With the delivery of the second, updated request for proposal to the three manufacturers Dassault, EADS and Saab, the evaluation of a successor for the F-5 Tiger is proceeding as planned.
In the updated request for proposal the manufacturers are asked to submit an offer for 22 aircraft. In addition, armasuisse sets the budget at CHF 2.2 billion and inquires how many aircraft can be delivered for this amount.
CHF 2.2B is just under $2B which would makes it ~$90M per frame. Shouldn't be a problem for the Gripen and Rafale. What about the EF?
Quote: In the updated request for proposal the results and data gathered from the ground and flight tests and from the first offer have been incorporated. This includes functions and performances which do not meet the military requirements. armasuisse wants to give the manufacturers the opportunity to propose respective improvements. Improvements are also sought in additional fields.
Has anyone heard any reports of what requirements weren't met and by what aircraft?
Quote: The evaluation of the tests and updated offers will be concluded at the end of May 2009 with the evaluation report prepared by armasuisse in close cooperation with the Swiss Air Force.
Bennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 6363 posts, RR: 1 Reply 55, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
I am surprised that the F16 has not been included in the shortlist.
The current model is much more capable than the 1992 version.
Keesje
There was quite a saga concerning the Mir3. Originally they were going to have 100 aircraft which were basically Mir3C's. By the time that the much modified planes entered service, well above budget, they ended up with 54.
Stoney From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 199 posts, RR: 4 Reply 56, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 73): I am surprised that the F16 has not been included in the shortlist.
Because the F-16 lost out to the F/A-18 back then. And I don't believe they could bring what the SAF wants, since they surely will not go out of their way for such a small order. Besides, the SAF wants a fighter which might last for the next 50 years, not one for which the support might soon be gone after the F35 comes online....
BTW, it's quite a lot harder to get the approval of at least half of the voting people of a country, than just have the parliament say yes to a project, like it's done in all of the other countries. That's also a reason why the Swiss fighters are in service for a very loooooooong time.
Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 73): By the time that the much modified planes entered service, well above budget, they ended up with 54.
Yep, that even cost some politicians their job. And I believe that was a lesson learned for every project of the Swiss Air Force since then....
All these modifications were crazy,like the better radar, which meant they had to construct a completely new nose. But the added canards were very effective, and, not to forget, the flying triangle was just the most beautiful plane Switzerland ever saw....
BAZL - Bundesamt gegen Zivilluftfahrt - royally screwing around with swiss aviation
Art From Lebanon, joined Feb 2005, 2937 posts, RR: 0 Reply 57, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting TGIF (Reply 72): CHF 2.2B is just under $2B which would makes it ~$90M per frame. Shouldn't be a problem for the Gripen and Rafale. What about the EF?
I think that 22 would be a problem for the EF once initial spares and support were added to the (say $75 million each) airframe costs.
Rafale? Not as much of a problem as it would be for the EF, I think.
Gripen? 22 within budget should not be a problem IMO.
Quoting TGIF (Reply 72): Has anyone heard any reports of what requirements weren't met and by what aircraft?
The fact that only 22 aircraft are called for (or fewer) gives me the impression that the budget is likely not open to increase. If all the aircraft met minimum requirements, the Gripen should now be the front runner, shouldn't it?
Stoney From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 199 posts, RR: 4 Reply 58, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Art (Reply 75): The fact that only 22 aircraft are called for (or fewer) gives me the impression that the budget is likely not open to increase.
The budget is definitively not open to increase... even a small increase away from 2.2 billion sFr. will probably kill any chance a new fighter has with in the vote by the Swiss population..
BAZL - Bundesamt gegen Zivilluftfahrt - royally screwing around with swiss aviation
TGIF From Sweden, joined Apr 2008, 273 posts, RR: 0 Reply 59, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Art (Reply 75): If all the aircraft met minimum requirements, the Gripen should now be the front runner, shouldn't it?
If Gripen is the cheapest option and the contenders' don't have a lot of 'bang' that justifies the extra 'bucks', then I think it will have the inside track.
But you never know...
The fact that Austria and Germany uses the EF might play a big part.
Rafale flew an extra ~15 sorties with their AESA during the evaluation and that might give them the edge.
Quoting Stoney (Reply 76): even a small increase away from 2.2 billion sFr. will probably kill any chance a new fighter has with in the vote by the Swiss population..
Does this purchase get a lot of attention in Swiss media? What is the general opinion among the population? Do they agree that the F-5 needs to be replaced or do they think the F-18 are enough?
Stoney From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 199 posts, RR: 4 Reply 60, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting TGIF (Reply 77): Does this purchase get a lot of attention in Swiss media? What is the general opinion among the population? Do they agree that the F-5 needs to be replaced or do they think the F-18 are enough?
Up until now it wasn't a big theme in the Swiss Media. But it will be one, as soon as GSOA (The People for a Switzerland without an Army) will have enough signatures (means 100'000) for their proposed law to ban any replacement or purchase of fighters for the next 10 years. This will lead to the first nationwide vote on this subject since the purchase of the Hornet back in 1993 which surely will be THE big theme in the media for a long time.
If this law passes, any replacement will be gone, if the vote fails, the next steps will follow. One being a vote in parliament. where they probably will decide to buy the partial replacement of the Tigers, the other being another nationwide vote, which surely will come due to the left parties and the GSOA calling for a referendum (50'000 signatures).
I don't really know what the majority of the Swiss people think, but everyone knows that the F-5s can no longer be kept in the SAF. Whether the 33 Hornets are enough, or whether Switzerland needs another 22 fighters, I guess that's every persons own opinion and pretty hard to actually foresee. Nobody knows what the political situation in 2 or 4 years will be like...
BAZL - Bundesamt gegen Zivilluftfahrt - royally screwing around with swiss aviation
EBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 2 Reply 61, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Petertenthije (Reply 15): Would it not be a closer match to replace the F-5 with something like the BAe Hawk or the Aero L-159?
The fact that they want to replace the F-5s doesn't necessarily mean they want a near equivalent to the F-5. It's more likely they will re-equipe the F-5 squadrons but the airplane they need may have far greater capability in the air defense role. I don't see the Super Hornet winning this one ... and I like the Super Hornet. My guess is the Typhoon will get his one, based on performance and its inherent upgrade capability. Rafale was designed as a ground attach airplane with air-to-air secondary capability whereas Typhoon is designed to function effectively in either role.
Grippen wouldn't be a bad choice but does it have the performance capability the Swiss are looking for?
F27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1113 posts, RR: 5 Reply 62, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Stoney (Reply 74): Because the F-16 lost out to the F/A-18 back then. And I don't believe they could bring what the SAF wants, since they surely will not go out of their way for such a small order. Besides, the SAF wants a fighter which might last for the next 50 years, not one for which the support might soon be gone after the F35 comes online....
I've talked to people who took part in the competition back then. Apparently one important reason the F/A-18 won over the F-16 was they [the Swiss] presumed the latter would not be in production anymore in a few more years so it would be impossible to buy extra frames. It turned out that happend to the F/A-18 (as the superhornet only has about 2 parts in common with the hornet).
Interesting remark about availibility for the next 50 years. Would be a good reason NOT to go for the gripen as from this moment on there will be as much (or more) F-16's built as Gripens.
Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 79): I don't see the Super Hornet winning this one ..
me neither (since the're not a contender anymore )
SAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 693 posts, RR: 0 Reply 63, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
The three choices that are in this "race" are all very capable fighters,no question about that,but i have never understood why SAF with a combined fleet of less than 60 if this future order would stay at,lets say 22,would need two different strong and capable fighters.....
Stoney From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 199 posts, RR: 4 Reply 64, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 81): The three choices that are in this "race" are all very capable fighters,no question about that,but i have never understood why SAF with a combined fleet of less than 60 if this future order would stay at,lets say 22,would need two different strong and capable fighters.....
Well getting the people to say yes to 2-3 billion for a new purchase every 15 years is easier than getting all the people to say yes to 6 billion for a new purchase, even if it's just every thirty years....
BAZL - Bundesamt gegen Zivilluftfahrt - royally screwing around with swiss aviation
DEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4429 posts, RR: 1 Reply 65, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Rheinwaldner (Reply 62): It seems that prior the F-35 JSF no US product is on par with the Euro Canards (except the beyond-the-scope F-22).
Some may consider the Eagle "ancient" technology, but Singapore's and South Korea's examples are still very competitive, potent fighters.
Quoting Stoney (Reply 74): Because the F-16 lost out to the F/A-18 back then. And I don't believe they could bring what the SAF wants, since they surely will not go out of their way for such a small order.
Just because it did doesn't mean that a new version will necessarily lose to the Gripen. And what exactly does the SAF want that LM couldn't provide? I don't think they are too big-headed to ignore a customer's reasonable requirements, specially if those would mean almost $2B in new business.
R2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2250 posts, RR: 1 Reply 66, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Stoney (Reply 3):
But in the end, it's only a political question which plane will be ordered and the Swiss people will have the last word if they want to approve the order.... That's the beauty of a direct political system...
I think this says it all. Given that this has to be approved in referendum, the choice will be for the cheapest platform, without any regard for the capabilities or the needs of the next 20 years, and as has been said elsewhere, only taking into account the taxes I'm paying today, not the ones I will pay tomorrow.
This means that the Gripen will win, as it is the cheapest of all.
Incidentally, unwillingly and unknowingly, the Swiss people will have made a good choice in my opinion, as the Gripen packs the best bang for the buck and would be right-sized for the needs of the SAF. So everybody in Switzerland (and Sweden) will be happy in the end.
Art From Lebanon, joined Feb 2005, 2937 posts, RR: 0 Reply 67, posted (4 years 4 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting TGIF (Reply 77): If Gripen is the cheapest option and the contenders' don't have a lot of 'bang' that justifies the extra 'bucks', then I think it will have the inside track.
But you never know...
The fact that Austria and Germany uses the EF might play a big part.
Rafale flew an extra ~15 sorties with their AESA during the evaluation and that might give them the edge.
I'm curious why you should say that Austria and Germany using the EF might play a big part. Ok, they're right next door but so is France using Rafale.
TGIF From Sweden, joined Apr 2008, 273 posts, RR: 0 Reply 68, posted (4 years 4 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting TGIF (Reply 72): CHF 2.2B is just under $2B which would makes it ~$90M per frame. Shouldn't be a problem for the Gripen and Rafale. What about the EF?
Quoting Art (Reply 75): I think that 22 would be a problem for the EF once initial spares and support were added to the (say $75 million each) airframe costs.
I think I might have found an answer to my question.
Quote: EADS’ Eurofighter, for instance, would yield about 10-12 aircraft within those constraints, based on Austria’s EUR 2 billion buy of just 18, later reduced to EUR 1.63 billion for 15.
...
When these factors are added up, the twin-engine Eurofighter will have a difficult task avoiding the perception of over-budget overkill. The plane’s strongest option would probably be a used aircraft sale from an existing partner nation. That may be a viable option, as Tranche 3 purchases look set to strain member country budgets, but cancellation will attract sharp financial penalties. Selling earlier models is one way to ease that strain.
Rafale
Quote: Its spotty integration with several American weapons used by the Schweizer Luftwaffe could become an issue, and so could its delayed integration with the Damocles surveillance and targeting pod. On the flip side, consistent losses in export competitions (a possible sale to Libya remains its only success) will keep up the pressure on France to offer a very attractive deal. Can Dassault keep its price to about EUR 65 million per plane, including initial training and spares (i.e. 22 aircraft within the budget), and offer weapon integration relief?
Gripen
Quote: The Saab/ BAE team of Gripen International offers the lowest price point of any of these aircraft, with lease-to-buy options underway in Hungary & The Czech Republic and a strong record of industrial offset deals.
...
An offer of 30-34 JAS-39 C/D aircraft that could mirror Switzerland’s 3 squadrons totaling 33 Hornets may be within the realm of financial possibility.
This pretty much concludes what we previously stated. It looks like the Gripen might be a front runner, unless:
- A Eurofighter partner will sell some partially used Tranche 1 aircrafts at a low price in order to make room for a Tranche 3 order. The Swiss AF would probably need to come to a conclusion that the EF offers needed capabilities, that the Gripen and Rafale don't offer, in order to justify the increased price, compared to the other two.
- The Rafale will include the above stated weapons integration in the price, enabeling joint weapons for Rafale and F-18.
- The Gripen falls short in the technical/operational evaluation.
Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 80): Interesting remark about availibility for the next 50 years. Would be a good reason NOT to go for the gripen as from this moment on there will be as much (or more) F-16's built as Gripens.
The Gripen will hopefully, the MoD indicated this, be operational in the Swedish AF for the next 40 years. That and the fact that Saab have commitments to supply CzAF, HuAF, SAAF and RTAF (and hopefully future Gripen NG customers) with spares for a long time should be enough to convince the Swiss AF.
Quoting Art (Reply 85): I'm curious why you should say that Austria and Germany using the EF might play a big part. Ok, they're right next door but so is France using Rafale.
That struck me just as I posted my reply. So it would also apply for the Rafale. The reason this is a factor, IMO, would be simplified logistics and training opportunities.
Rheinwaldner From Switzerland, joined Jan 2008, 2066 posts, RR: 6 Reply 69, posted (4 years 4 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting R2rho (Reply 84): I think this says it all. Given that this has to be approved in referendum, the choice will be for the cheapest platform, without any regard for the capabilities or the needs of the next 20 years, and as has been said elsewhere, only taking into account the taxes I'm paying today, not the ones I will pay tomorrow.
I am not sure. The F/A 18 was also affirmed by a referendum and was not the cheapest. The referendum will not be about the type but about the decision whether to buy the previously evaluated jet at all.
SAF fans can be quite relaxed. Usualy in military questions the people's vote follows the recommended proposal, e.g. the official proposal as evaluated by the government.
Keesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 70, posted (4 years 4 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Agreed with above considerations.
The Tigers and F18s are twin engined. How important is that is the current requirements? How many SAF aircraft made it home because they had engine redundancy?
It seems the Mirage III serve long and succesfully in de SAF and I have the feeling the Rafales are more multi role then the EFs ATM. They already have AESA radar.
R2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2250 posts, RR: 1 Reply 71, posted (4 years 4 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting TGIF (Reply 86): - A Eurofighter partner will sell some partially used Tranche 1 aircrafts at a low price in order to make room for a Tranche 3 order.
I agree that something of that sort could give the Typhoon a chance. With Germany and UK having second thoughts / changing their minds about their preocurement commitments, they could try to offload some of their Tranche 1 fighters for a cheap and attractive price. Add to that a decent weapons + support package and the Typhoon could gain some points. Subject of course to Germany lifting its restrictions on northern approaches into ZRH......
HBChris From Switzerland, joined Jun 2007, 15 posts, RR: 0 Reply 76, posted (4 years 3 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Rheinwaldner (Reply 93): Without having selected the type the referendum is now confirmed because enough people (>100000) have signed a request for a referendum.
Usually in such cases the people will confirm the intention of the federation. Which means "Yes, buy the new fighter".
Actually it's an initiative that would prohibit the acquisition of new fighters between 2010 and 2019. This means that for the initiative to pass not only the majority of the people in total, but also the majority of the cantons (Stände) need to vote 'I don't want new fighters till 2019'. Small difference, but when it gets close it could be important.
By the way, they continue to collect signatures because not all the signatures already collected are valid. And by the time we get to vote, it will be clear which plane would be ordered.
Quote:
EADS’ Eurofighter, for instance, would yield about 10-12 aircraft within those constraints, based on Austria’s EUR 2 billion buy of just 18, later reduced to EUR 1.63 billion for 15.
...
When these factors are added up, the twin-engine Eurofighter will have a difficult task avoiding the perception of over-budget overkill. The plane’s strongest option would probably be a used aircraft sale from an existing partner nation. That may be a viable option, as Tranche 3 purchases look set to strain member country budgets, but cancellation will attract sharp financial penalties. Selling earlier models is one way to ease that strain.
However, the Austrian purchase of the EF was completely fu*ked up by the time the socialists re-entered our government. The reduction from 18 to 15 units with 9 pre-used ones (albeit very low hours) by the German Luftwaffe, cancelling (!!!!!) the night-combat package, and downgrading the order from Tranche 2 to Tranche 1actually increased the per-unit price by something like 10%. Well, as an Austrian, I've learned to live with such politic descicions...
If you have a working knowledge in German, under http://www.rechnungshof.gv.at/filead...nd/bund_2008_09/Bund_2008_09_2.pdf you can find the report of the Austrian "Bundesrechnungshof", the Court of Audit, concerning the reduction of 18 to 15 planes. Your hairs will point skywards afterwards .
WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
Seems the Swiss have some issues with their banking system so spending $2B (all though a small cost if you put some perspective on things) on fighters might not look to good in the eyes of the public.
SAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 693 posts, RR: 0 Reply 80, posted (4 years 1 month 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
According to a Swedish economy site,a rumor says that if the Swiss take 22 Gripen NG,sweden would be interested in buying approx. 50 aircraft of a model called PC-21,don't know what kind of airplane that is,probably to replace the SAAB,s SK60 ...as always,future will tell
Quoting TGIF (Reply 97): Any news by the way about the referendum?
DEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4429 posts, RR: 1 Reply 81, posted (4 years 1 month 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 98): According to a Swedish economy site,a rumor says that if the Swiss take 22 Gripen NG,sweden would be interested in buying approx. 50 aircraft of a model called PC-21,don't know what kind of airplane that is
Par13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 5901 posts, RR: 8 Reply 82, posted (4 years 1 month 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
A lot has been mentioned about the merits of proposed a/c, here's another question, are the Swiss in any political turmoil with either the EU or the US, are they being pressured by either side for anything, bank secrecy etc.?
If they are under any political pressure for anything I would expect the purchase to be pushed as an offset or olive branch. Yes there may / will e a refrendum, but someone will be offering up a choice and push its merits, so ????????
Military purchases are political, the actual merits of the hardware can always be adjusted on paper.
Flagon From France, joined May 2007, 133 posts, RR: 0 Reply 83, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
I am a bit skeptical about that one but I can't help sharing it anyway:
According to the french news paper France Soir, french defense minister Herve Morin would have offered Switzerland the possibility to use french air bases should Switzerland choose the Rafale...
Flagon From France, joined May 2007, 133 posts, RR: 0 Reply 84, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 32767 times:
Quoting Flagon (Reply 101): I am a bit skeptical about that one but I can't help sharing it anyway:
According to the french news paper France Soir, french defense minister Herve Morin would have offered Switzerland the possibility to use french air bases should Switzerland choose the Rafale...
Flagon From France, joined May 2007, 133 posts, RR: 0 Reply 85, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 32340 times:
According to the Swiss blog Avia News, the Eurofighter seems to be ruled out from the competition, which is likely to end up with a Gripen vs Rafale assessment...
I am a bit suprised by this as I would have thought the Eurofighter, with its good performance in climb rate, would be better suited for Switzerland...
Can anyone confirm?
columba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 6799 posts, RR: 5 Reply 86, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 32218 times:
Quoting Flagon (Reply 103): According to the Swiss blog Avia News, the Eurofighter seems to be ruled out from the competition, which is likely to end up with a Gripen vs Rafale assessment...
I am a bit suprised by this as I would have thought the Eurofighter, with its good performance in climb rate, would be better suited for Switzerland...
Can anyone confirm?
Can not confirm anything but having seen the Gripen at the Berlin Air Show I must say it is a great airplane and with its lower costs in comparison to the Eurofighter and Rafale it seems for me the best solution for the swiss airforce (also it would be the perfect airplane for the Patrouille Suisse).
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
Flagon From France, joined May 2007, 133 posts, RR: 0 Reply 87, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 32084 times:
Quoting columba (Reply 104): (also it would be the perfect airplane for the Patrouille Suisse).
I quite agree with you
regarding the Patrouille Suisse, it seems like (according to the same source) Switzerland does not intend to replace its F5 anymore but is rather interested in progressively replacing its F18's by 2025...
To maintain the costs within an acceptable level, Switzerland apparently wants to buy 12 planes as a first step (instead of 22 as initially planed). They would then buy another 5 to 6 planes every year for 2 to 3 years...
I found something in english, if you scroll down you ll find a translation of an article from "Le Temps" which gives some interesting information:
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 7782 posts, RR: 22 Reply 88, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 32063 times:
Should be an easy choice - the Gripen.
It's the lightest and cheapest. Single Engine design - why do the Swiss need twin engines - it's hardly as if they will be taking long overwater trips. It's modern, carries a wide variety of the latest ordinance, is multirole, and is designed to be extremely flexible in terms of ground support. And finally it's maneuverable as hell - I saw it at the Payerne airshow some years ago and it was on par with anything else there.
Entriely agree with you that in Airshows the Gripen makes impressive displays just like any other modern fighter, however if you read carefully the link I put in my previous post there are some concerns about the Gripen ("the Swedish Gripen is the one which offers the lowest long-term guarantees") which make the choice not that obvious.
For the climb rate? I remember seeing an interview of a Swiss Airfoce pilot explaining how important it is for a small country like Switzerland, crossed everyday by a huge amount of air traffic, to have interceptors with very good climb rate...
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 7782 posts, RR: 22 Reply 90, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 32033 times:
Quoting Flagon (Reply 107): For the climb rate? I remember seeing an interview of a Swiss Airfoce pilot explaining how important it is for a small country like Switzerland, crossed everyday by a huge amount of air traffic, to have interceptors with very good climb rate...
The Gripen's climb rate and power/weight ratios are better than the F-18s they have, and even better than the Super Hornet.
It all comes down to cost as well. The Rafale has twin engines, and yes it has impressive numbers, but it is much heavier and more maintenance-intensive. Does Switzerland need a plane with a 2000 Km combat radius? Long legs for an interceptor role.
Assuming that the Rafale is substantially more expensive than the Gripen, I would choose to buy a few more Gripens.
A342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4655 posts, RR: 4 Reply 91, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 31894 times:
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 106): Single Engine design - why do the Swiss need twin engines - it's hardly as if they will be taking long overwater trips.
No, but in those mountains, emergency landing sites aren't exactly abundant. Yes, an ejection seat can take care of that, but I believe pilots prefer twin engines.
DEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4429 posts, RR: 1 Reply 92, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 31873 times:
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 108): Quoting Flagon (Reply 107):
For the climb rate? I remember seeing an interview of a Swiss Airfoce pilot explaining how important it is for a small country like Switzerland, crossed everyday by a huge amount of air traffic, to have interceptors with very good climb rate...
The Gripen's climb rate and power/weight ratios are better than the F-18s they have, and even better than the Super Hornet.
Here's a single-engined design with excellent climb rate and power/weight ratio, could do Mach 2, very agile and maneuverable, packs a decent load, comparatively cheap, and the perfect replacement for the F-5.....
It could use the upgraded F-414 engine. Equip it with modern avionics and Northrop's scaleable SABR AESA radar, then you'd have an excellent point interceptor.
Absolutely, however, there are other parameters in the equation: France promises open access of the french airspace plus associate the Swiss to future Rafale development...
rheinwaldner From Switzerland, joined Jan 2008, 2066 posts, RR: 6 Reply 95, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 31081 times:
Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 92): It could use the upgraded F-414 engine. Equip it with modern avionics and Northrop's scaleable SABR AESA radar, then you'd have an excellent point interceptor.
IIRC it was evaluated 20 years ago already. It was no winner then why should it now? What ability does it have over F-16 which was evaluated 20 years ago as well (and also was not the winner)?
DEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4429 posts, RR: 1 Reply 96, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 30781 times:
Quoting rheinwaldner (Reply 95): IIRC it was evaluated 20 years ago already. It was no winner then why should it now? What ability does it have over F-16 which was evaluated 20 years ago as well (and also was not the winner)?
And I thought I was going overboard with the smilies. In answer to your questions, allow me to direct you to the following threads, and let you draw your own conclusions.....
F-20 Vs F-16 (by Blackbird Jul 7 2009 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)?threadid=108574&searchid=108588&s=f-20+Tigershark#ID108588
Though I'm a bit biased because the F-20 came out during my generation, quite frankly, I'd give a completely updated version of it better odds in combat than the Gripen (of course, there's no way of confirming that now.) And I wouldn't be too sure of the Gripen NG's future prospects either, given the handful of refurbish/lease, and new-build deals for the current model --- and the stipulation that the Swedish Air Force commit to the NG version first before it could be considered. The Gripen's biggest draw as the lone capable, modern lightweight fighter outside Russia and China at its price point today could diminish once KAI/LM's T-50 (now aimed for the UAE) morph into the F/A-50.
Quote: "Meanwhile, Chadwick also sought to revive hopes for the Super Hornet sales campaign in Switzerland. Boeing withdrew the fighter from the Swiss competition two years ago, ceding the race to the Dassault Rafale and Saab Gripen.
A public referendum now is expected to decide the future for the tender to replace Switzerland's F/A-18C/D Hornets.
'We believe they will establish a new requirement [after the referendum],' Chadwick says, 'that will allow us to re-enter the competition.'"
Quote: "The Swiss government has delayed until 2015 any acquisition of new fighter jets to partially replace its fleet of 54 Northrop F-5 Tiger combat aircraft.
Defence minister Ueli Maurer says that by the end of 2011 his ministry and the federal finance department will decide whether conditions are favourable for acquisition of new jets in the second half of the decade."
Lumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 21 Reply 99, posted (2 years 9 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 27241 times:
So what's pending for Rafale? Still in the IAF competition. Brazil? Lula kicked that can down the road. Libya? Khadaffi wants more commercial access to Paris last I heard.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
Quote: "PARIS - The United Arab Emirates (UAE) has requested technical information on the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, a surprise move that turns an anticipated order of Dassault Rafales into a $10 billion competition, an Arabian Gulf defense source said.
'The UAE is asking the U.S. for information on the F/A-18 Super Hornet in the single- and twin-seater version,' the source said. 'It is in the very early stages; it's a preliminary contact. The UAE has opened the door to them.'
UAE authorities approached Boeing about a month ago and were directed to the U.S. government, which is expected to respond in a month or so, a U.S. source said.
It's not clear why Abu Dhabi has suddenly expressed interest in the latest version of the U.S. strike fighter. Technology may be part of the reason, but politics is likely the main cause.
[.....]
The UAE is looking to replace the 63 Dassault Mirage 2000-9s it bought just over a decade ago. As part of Paris' efforts to sell the Rafale, France has offered to buy back the Mirage aircraft, which it would hold in a special-purpose company while looking for an export buyer.
[.....]
Why The Shift?
It was not immediately clear why the UAE is exploring a U.S.-made option.
The U.S. source said the Gulf state is believed to be frustrated over price and the technology offered by France.
UAE authorities have been negotiating with the French government and industry a potential co-development of a more capable 'fifth-generation' model of the Rafale.
Abu Dhabi is being asked to pay to upgrade the Rafale, while the F-18 is already at the desired technological level.
The Gulf source said, 'The Super Hornet has everything we need. We don't need to co-develop or modify it'."
Come to think of it, those Mirage 2000-9s wouldn't be a bad compromise to replace the Swiss F-5s - at a reasonable price, of course.....
Quote: "September 28th, the Council of the states approved the budget to order 22 new fighter jets, rejecting the referendum option. If this order is stated in the 2012 defense program, the winner of the contest should be revealed before February 2012."
Another report said the current favorable exchange against the Euro could reduce the cost by as much as SwF30M per frame, which could hasten the deal. The question now is whether it will be included in the 2012 spending list.
Might this finally be the homestretch of this protracted race?
art From Lebanon, joined Feb 2005, 2937 posts, RR: 0 Reply 102, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 20532 times:
Quoting Devilfish (Reply 101): "September 28th, the Council of the states approved the budget to order 22 new fighter jets, rejecting the referendum option. If this order is stated in the 2012 defense program, the winner of the contest should be revealed before February 2012."
I wonder if the budget has changed. It was reported as being 2.2 billion Swiss Francs. At 1 Swiss Franc = ca 0.8 euros, that would now be ca 2.65 billion euros. I guess that would cover the cost of 22 Gripen but would it cover 22 Rafale/Typhoon including attendant costs?
art From Lebanon, joined Feb 2005, 2937 posts, RR: 0 Reply 105, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 20171 times:
Quoting Arniepie (Reply 103): Quoting art (Reply 102):
It was reported as being 2.2 billion Swiss Francs.
At 1 Swiss Franc = ca 0.8 euros, that would now be ca 2.65 billion euros
That's an F in math for you.
Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 104): Quoting art (Reply 102):
2.2 billion Swiss Francs. At 1 Swiss Franc = ca 0.8 euros, that would now be ca 2.65 billion euros.
Your figures makes it 1.76 Billion Euros......
Sorry.
What an amazingly dumb thing to do - not to look at the 2 figures and realise I had calculated them upside down, inside out, front to back!
Quote: "During the fall 2011 session, Parliament decided to increase, beginning in 2014, the army’s spending limit to 5 billion francs. This represents about 600 million francs more than the amount provided in the current financial plan.
In doing so, Parliament wants to ensure the development of the army (DEVA) by increasing its authorized manpower to 100,000 soldiers, and guarantee the filling of existing gaps in equipment, as well as the acquisition of new combat aircraft. "
This suggests that the price is definitely in Gripen territory. Which other manufacturer would be willing to play in that ballpark for the yearender win.....assuming that indeed they'd announce the decision then?
art From Lebanon, joined Feb 2005, 2937 posts, RR: 0 Reply 107, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 19385 times:
Just to complicate matters...
Nov 2, 2011
"RUAG Aviation, which looks after Switzerland’s F-5E/F fleet, says the number of operational F-5s in the world has increased in recent years. The company carried out an analysis of alternatives for the Swiss defense ministry, which is considering putting off a buy of new fighters (Rafales, Typhoons or Gripens) and settling for an F-5 upgrade and another decade of operations."
rheinwaldner From Switzerland, joined Jan 2008, 2066 posts, RR: 6 Reply 108, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 19360 times:
Just for the record. Several sources claim that the Rafale is favoured by the technical evaluation. As can be seen in the Tagi today: http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/...-unter-Druck-setzen/story/17131363
But the political will to complete this deal anytime soon is far from given. There is a strong opposition within the parliament and within the people (who will very likely be in charge to decide ultimatively).
Autothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1480 posts, RR: 8 Reply 109, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 19139 times:
Quoting rheinwaldner (Reply 108): Several sources claim that the Rafale is favoured by the technical evaluation. As can be seen in
Don't believe a word what this newspaper writes.
I have readed other sources where swiss pilots favoured clearly the Eurofighter.(http://offiziere.ch)
Besides, some write the Eurofighter being in a other ligue then the other candidates.
Finally they will choose what Switzerland can afford. And the Gripen would be much more affordable then the Rafale/Typhoon.
1. It makes no sense as F-5 replacement to buy a A/G fighter like the Rafale, a job the F/A-18 can do.
2. Switzerland needs a great interceptor and air superiority fighter. Both the Gripen and Eurofighter(dual channel link to Meteor) better the Rafale in terms of AA weapons integration and the Typhoon in Avionics, agility, acceleration, thrust to weight,RCS etc...
3. The EF and Gripen have been exported successfully(while the Rafale not) and the Typhoon has proved itself on many occasion including CAS/CAP Missions in Afghanistan. Also Typhoon won easily over SU-35 in the Indian competition.
4. The EF or Gripen are used from many airforces, which swiss pilots could do training and learn from.
5.The DASS or Pretorian System on the Typhoon is one of the most capable, highly integrated and automated self defence system, comparable to the F-22 system. A system which would give the edge to swiss pilots over any agressor.
6.Spares and Maintenance(and experiences) can be shared within the nations about the Gripen and Typhoon unlike the Rafale.
There can be IMO only two options : Gripen or Typhoon. If the Rafale wins it will be politically motivated.
flagon From France, joined May 2007, 133 posts, RR: 0 Reply 110, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 18923 times:
Quoting rheinwaldner (Reply 108): Just for the record. Several sources claim that the Rafale is favoured by the technical evaluation
Quoting Autothrust (Reply 109): Don't believe a word what this newspaper writes.
I cannot read this article since it is in german, but I am surprised indeed, I would have thought the Swiss Air Force would prefer the plane which has the best climb rate, therefore the Typhoon. I wonder what this technical evaluation consists of, I assume it is more than just comparing the aircraft performances?
Quoting Autothrust (Reply 109): If the Rafale wins it will be politically motivated.
I tend to agree with that, but I think in that kind of deal politic is actually very important.
art From Lebanon, joined Feb 2005, 2937 posts, RR: 0 Reply 111, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 18904 times:
New kid should be appearing on the block soon.
"South Korea will begin mass production of an armed model of its supersonic trainer jet starting in 2013, the state procurement agency said Friday.
The Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA) said it will finalize a deal within this year so that the first armed version of the T-50 trainer jet, dubbed the FA-50, will be delivered to the Air Force by August 2013. Sources said up to 60 FA-50 jets will be produced by 2016.
FA-50s are designed to fill the void left by outdated Air Force fighters, such as the A-37 and F-5. Officials say the multirole FA-50 is comparable to KF-16 aircraft."
If this ends up with the Swiss people voting against a selected Gripen/Rafale/Typhoon replacement for its F-5 Tigers, what would be a better candidate than the FA-50? Or Tejas... but then I don't think India has much interest in exporting Tejas.
wvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 516 posts, RR: 0 Reply 112, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 18612 times:
Quoting art (Reply 111): If this ends up with the Swiss people voting against a selected Gripen/Rafale/Typhoon replacement for its F-5 Tigers, what would be a better candidate than the FA-50? Or Tejas... but then I don't think India has much interest in exporting Tejas.
I don't see either the FA-50 or the Tejas being considered in the swiss bid and other than 3rd world countries I can't see anyone being interested in buying the Tejas either. Neither of the 2 aircraft have any techinal advancements over the aircraft the swiss are considering and they would be a definate step down from a typhoon and a rafale. I look for the swiss of they don't just decide to replace their fleet amd make them all hornets to purchase the gripens.
Devilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4429 posts, RR: 1 Reply 113, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 18474 times:
Quoting art (Reply 111): If this ends up with the Swiss people voting against a selected Gripen/Rafale/Typhoon replacement for its F-5 Tigers
Just to clear up things, does this mean that the linked blog report in #101 saying that the Council rejected the referendum intentionally misled readers?
Quoting art (Reply 111): what would be a better candidate than the FA-50?
It seems you see the same potential in the FA-50 as I did in #96.
Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 112):
I don't see either the FA-50 or the Tejas being considered in the swiss bid
IF the replacement is not decided indefinitely, the scenario could change dramatically should the Golden Eagle be confirmed for the US T-X requirement. LockMart, by contract, is the designated agent for international and US sales of the T-50 and its derivatives. A T-X win, if it comes to pass, would open a range of upgrade paths and FMS opportunities, and ensure after sales spares and support. Also, the stipulation that the T-50 cannot be more capable than the Falcons is now moot with South Korea upgrading its F-16s. As countries who could afford the Vipers dwindle, LockMart may find a downmarket FA-50 a good seller.
The only caveat being LM might be very tempted to pimp it up so much to raise the price. A big no-no in these times when even First World nations are only willing to pay Third World money for their defence acquisitions.
art From Lebanon, joined Feb 2005, 2937 posts, RR: 0 Reply 114, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 18321 times:
Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 112): Neither of the 2 aircraft have any techinal advancements over the aircraft the swiss are considering and they would be a definate step down from a typhoon and a rafale.
Exactly. If a plebiscite rejects a deal for whatever is chosen due to the cost, either the Tigers soldier on or a cheaper, more modest aircraft is considered. If you need to replace your car but can't get the funding for a Mercedes, you might then try to get a lower level of funding for a Volkswagen, might you not?
Autothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1480 posts, RR: 8 Reply 115, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 18283 times:
Quoting art (Reply 111): New kid should be appearing on the block soon.
No way Switzerland would buy this already obsolete plane. As a trainer it might be a great choice though, but that's just not what the airforce needs.
The F-5 or FA-50 have no future in the Swiss Airforce.
Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 112): Neither of the 2 aircraft have any techinal advancements over the aircraft the swiss are considering and they would be a definate step down from a typhoon and a rafale.
art From Lebanon, joined Feb 2005, 2937 posts, RR: 0 Reply 116, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 17996 times:
Quoting Autothrust (Reply 115): The F-5 or FA-50 have no future in the Swiss Airforce.
I am sure you know better than me but where the F-5 is concerned, why was the Swiss government trying to get an idea of upgrade costs for the F-5?
Nov 2, 2011
"RUAG Aviation, which looks after Switzerland’s F-5E/F fleet, says the number of operational F-5s in the world has increased in recent years. The company carried out an analysis of alternatives for the Swiss defense ministry, which is considering putting off a buy of new fighters (Rafales, Typhoons or Gripens) and settling for an F-5 upgrade and another decade of operations."
Quoting Autothrust (Reply 115): Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 112):
Neither of the 2 aircraft have any techinal advancements over the aircraft the swiss are considering and they would be a definate step down from a typhoon and a rafale.
Couldn't agree more.
Of course Tejas and FA-50 are not in the same league as Rafale / Typhoon but that is irrelevant if you cannot get the Swiss people to sanction a Rafale / Typhoon purchase due to their cost.
Quote: "Nov 20/11: Swiss Chief of the Armed Forces Lt. Gen. Andre Blattmann has gone on record in favor of a referendum over F-5 TTE. His stance reflects confidence, saying 'Si nous n’arrivons pas a convaincre le peuple, ce sera de notre faute,' but Parliament has already decided that its fighter purchase would not be validated by a referendum.
Under Swiss law, it’s possible to force one anyway with 50,000 signatures across at least 8 cantons, gathered within 100 days. The Swiss Green Party and their allies have stated that they intend to try. Swissinfo [French].
Nov 14/11: Aviation Week reports that the Swiss government is expected to announce the F-5 replacement program winner around mid-December 2011."
art From Lebanon, joined Feb 2005, 2937 posts, RR: 0 Reply 118, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 17525 times:
Quoting Devilfish (Reply 117): Quote:
"Nov 20/11: Swiss Chief of the Armed Forces Lt. Gen. Andre Blattmann has gone on record in favor of a referendum over F-5 TTE. His stance reflects confidence, saying 'Si nous n’arrivons pas a convaincre le peuple, ce sera de notre faute,' but Parliament has already decided that its fighter purchase would not be validated by a referendum.
Under Swiss law, it’s possible to force one anyway with 50,000 signatures across at least 8 cantons, gathered within 100 days. The Swiss Green Party and their allies have stated that they intend to try. Swissinfo [French].
Nov 14/11: Aviation Week reports that the Swiss government is expected to announce the F-5 replacement program winner around mid-December 2011."
How's the signature campaign coming along?
If the Green Party membership is of any substantial size (tens of thousands) I would think that with a bit of networking they could reach 50,000 signatures. According to Wiki, the party had elected representatives in 8 cantonal governments in 2007.
There is an interview of Fernand Carrel, former head of the Swiss Air Force:
"From the pure operational point of view, the Rafale is heading the race, followed by the Typhoon and then the Gripen"
"I think the pilots would like to get the Rafale but that's certainly not for them to decide"
You just need to put these statements into context as Fernand Carrel is clearly a "Dassault enthusiast"...
They say the price of the Rafale is 150millions which looks a bit fancy...
bennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 6363 posts, RR: 1 Reply 120, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 17258 times:
Assuming that there is a referendum, what do those proposing it hope to acheive?.
a google translation available in the Rafalenews forum in militaryphotos.net states about the two swiss air force test reports, "SAF/OT&E Evaluation Report … 2009" and "OT&E Evaluation Report NFA Flight Test 2008":
"
The summary of the second report states: "The Dassault Rafale is the only aircraft that has exceeded the minimum requirements expected in all operating modes"
"
"
The report ends with the request: "The Rafale produced by Dassault is proposed as the new combat aircraft of Swiss Air Force.” Best alternative to it is the Eurofighter.
"
It is also suggested that the Swiss defence minister will likely propose the Gripen due to its cost tomorrow (30th of november) or the 7th of december.
flyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 1286 posts, RR: 2 Reply 122, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 17106 times:
It isn't official yet, but the newspapers report that Switzerland selects the Gripen.
The gist of the article:
- they want to buy 22 airframes
- the Eurofighter and the Rafale cost both about CHF 4 billion
- the Gripen can be bought for about 3 billion
- the lower costs were decisive
- anyway, to finance the aircraft the federal government needs to cut in education, science, agriculture and infrastructure
Well, I favored the F-5E/F.
Even a letdown, if it is thoroughly and final, is a step forward.
Quote: "UPDATE: Saab has now confirmed the Gripen's victory. Here's the statement:
Saab is both proud and delighted that Gripen has been chosen as the Swiss Air Force's future multirole fighter aircraft.
'The Swiss type-selection confirms that Saab is a market-leader in the defence and security industry and that Gripen is a world-class fighter system that provides the best value for money', says Håkan Buskhe, President and CEO Saab.
The Gripen programme will create a long-term partnership between Switzerland and Sweden. Saab assures Switzerland a long-term strategic industrial co-operation aimed at creating sustainable high tech jobs, transferring technology and generating export business.
Saab stands prepared to start negotiations and await the next steps of the process."
Congratulations to SAAB for a well-deserved victory, and to Switzerland for making the right and prudent choice. Hope they and the Swiss people pursue this to a successful conclusion.
Just to clarify a point.....was it a C/D with AESA, or the Gripen NG which won?
Quote: "It previously pledged to at least meet a 100% offset requirement linked to a Gripen NG purchase, while Stockholm also expressed possible interest in the Swiss-built Pilatus PC-21 as a potential replacement for its Saab 105 jet trainers."
Quoting Autothrust (Reply 129):
True but it doesn't deliver nowhere the same performance compared to its competitors.
The Federal Council did say that it was a deliberate choice.....
Quote: "It confirmed choosing the Swedish fighter due to factors including its lower acquisition and maintenance costs, but conceded that the selection marked a decision 'not to position Switzerland at the highest European level as regards the performance of new combat aircraft'."
And once again the vanquished, had plenty to say about the outcome.....
Quote: "France's Dassault-led Rafale International team has announced its surprise at being eliminated from a Swiss fighter contest, and claimed that the selection of the Saab Gripen NG on cost grounds does not reflect Berne's previous evaluation of its aircraft.
[.....]
In a statement issued late the same day, the Rafale industry team countered that 'The Swiss-tailored Gripen only exists on paper', and claimed that its completion posed 'technical development and production risk significantly increasing the financial efforts required of the Swiss authorities'. It also challenged the customer nation's wider assumptions on cost.
[.....]
'The Rafale's capacities would enable the Swiss confederation to meet its operational requirements with a smaller number of aircraft at an equivalent or lower cost, as was demonstrated during the assessments by the Swiss air force,' it said."
A bit haughty insisting on less number of aircraft when the customer already defined their desired squadron strength.
moriarty From Sweden, joined Jan 2006, 160 posts, RR: 0 Reply 133, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 16666 times:
First of all, great news! I think Switzerland not only made a wise choice but a good one.
Quoting Autothrust (Reply 129): True but it doesn't deliver nowhere the same performance compared to its competitors.
All this talk about Gripen not having good performance is confusing me. To my knowledge, Gripen performance is very good. Yes, speaking about a couple of key properties like t/w ratio, load etc there's no doubt two engines is better than one. But when looking at performance placed in a larger picture, from value for money, reliability, usability, electronics suite to maintainability the Gripen does very well as I have understood it. So yes, if, in essence, two engines (and the implications of that) are the answer then Gripen does not have it. But I'd say that that pretty much everything speaks to Gripens advantage.
I think, and hope that Switzerland will be very happy with their choice.
flagon From France, joined May 2007, 133 posts, RR: 0 Reply 134, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 16637 times:
One could argue that if cost was such an determinent criteria, it didn't really make any sense to run a lengthy and costly competition process against significantly more expensive planes like Rafale and Typhoon.
Congratulation to the SAAB team anyway, the Gripen will look quite nice with swiss markings....
faro From Egypt, joined Aug 2007, 1445 posts, RR: 0 Reply 135, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 16604 times:
Congratulations to all; the Gripen is by far the best option possible given Switzerland's military stature and the astronomical costs involved in any military aircraft purchase these days.
Rheinwaldner From Switzerland, joined Jan 2008, 2066 posts, RR: 6 Reply 136, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 16612 times:
Congratulations to SAAB!
I think they have won because of the best value for money. It is essential for this deal that it comes across as "reasonable". Because the politicial and public resistance against new military jets is considerable. There will be almost certainly be a referendum.
So the Gripen has indead the biggest chance to become reality. The following factors could add some positive momentum for the Gripen when it comes to the referendum:
- It is the cheapest
- It is from Sweden, a country to which the Swiss have a special affinity because they are perceived as a "small player" too.
- The fact that this similar-minded, socialist, northern country since ages is able, to not only possess a considerable Air Force, but to design even the aircraft by themselves might unlock affirmative forces more than the costly high tech gadgets from France or EADS (which could be perceived as EU).
- It is not from France or Germany. Two countries that might lack some appeal from the Swiss point of view because they represent the EU more than other country. And because Switzerland recently faces a number of attacks from them in different areas (namely LSZH noise and bank customers). Buying client identifying data from Swiss banks on the black market is not the business the Swiss have in mind when they stipulate compensation deals for their military aequisitions.
From our fan perspective it sad on the other hand that the much more exciting Rafale or Eurofighter had no chance in this contest of modesty. My personal favourite would have been the Rafale, first because it has a flavour of that underdog-mentality too (undeserved) and second because Dassault is the provider of the most fascinating Swiss military aircraft ever, the Mirage IIIS!
Autothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1480 posts, RR: 8 Reply 138, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 16600 times:
Quoting Devilfish (Reply 130): The Federal Council did say that it was a deliberate choice.....
Yes of course it was a deliberate choice, the Federal Councillor has said he wanted not the most expensive fighter to not cause tensions within the army / airforce. He even said altough the Gripen was last in evaluation campaign it's a good affordable solution and enough for switzerland.
Quoting moriarty (Reply 133): All this talk about Gripen not having good performance is confusing me. To my knowledge, Gripen performance is very good.
And I agree fully it is a great fighter, and IMO very good looking but if we look at the fact's it's performance is not at the same level then it's competitors and it has not only to do with the engine.
flyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 1286 posts, RR: 2 Reply 139, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 16508 times:
Quoting Autothrust (Reply 129): True but it doesn't deliver nowhere the same performance compared to its competitors.
What is the intended purpose of the new Gripen at all? Being in the middle of Europe, we only need aircraft to police the airspace and be able to police nutcases, like the one circling over FRA for hours back in 2003, threatening to crash into a building. Switzerland is too small for fast airplanes anyway. Want to turn our federal parliament into a crater? Start in BSL, 10-12 minutes later you're there.
I've never read any mission specifics for that new aircraft, only that it is compared against the F/A-18C and should be "better" than that one.
Rather, I see potential for a PC-9/PC-21-based close air support aircraft, and some faster reconnaissance aircraft (okay, the F/A-18C could do that job).
I'm just asking for some enlightenment.
Quoting flagon (Reply 137): Was it down to cost issues as well? Was it an attractive offer financially?
I remember a TV broadcast years back, one episode of the "Rundschau". It said that Finland got its F/A-18C/D either cheaper, or it procured them "cheaper" by buying relatively less (62 airframes vs the 34 Switzerland bought) despite having a much bigger landmass and even bordering to the Soviet Union. They also said that it could reduce costs by using mobile radars distributed all over the vast forests, though...
The fact that the AF includes the most modern, neeeearly affordable aircraft (Eurofighter) into the evaluation and we still not possess CAS aircraft, transport aircraft with a better range than the Cougar helicopter and air-ground weapons for the EC635 helicopter gives me food for thought. Surely doesn't help dispelling the criticism that the air force always wants the best toys...
[Edited 2011-12-01 04:49:46]
Even a letdown, if it is thoroughly and final, is a step forward.
flagon From France, joined May 2007, 133 posts, RR: 0 Reply 140, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 16452 times:
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 139): I've never read any mission specifics for that new aircraft, only that it is compared against the F/A-18C and should be "better" than that one.
I guess that's where some people see a bit of an issue here, as the Basler Zeitung published yesterday two charts extracted from the confidential evaluation reports showing that for some types of mission the gripen didn't score to the minimum required (it scored around 5.5 or so I think), ie it didn't match the benchmark set by the hornet, which was 6 points...
Autothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1480 posts, RR: 8 Reply 141, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 16453 times:
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 139): Being in the middle of Europe, we only need aircraft to police the airspace and be able to police nutcases, like the one circling over FRA for hours back in 2003, threatening to crash into a building
I fully agree. For that job the Gripen is better suited then the F/A-18.
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 139): Switzerland is too small for fast airplanes anyway.
The question is not speed, it is acceleration. In a QRA situation you want to have your plane's as fast and as soon as possible in the air and at the threat or problem.The Typhoon for example would be within 5min's or less at any point of switzerland the Gripen 10 or less.
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 139): only that it is compared against the F/A-18C and should be "better" than that one.
It is better, but not much.
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 139): The fact that the AF includes the most modern, neeeearly affordable aircraft (Eurofighter) into the evaluation and we still not possess CAS aircraft, transport aircraft with a better range than the Cougar helicopter
Again i agree but, for what do we need a CAS aircraft ?It was however a big failure to dismiss the CASA-295 purchase plans.
flyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 1286 posts, RR: 2 Reply 143, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 16418 times:
Quoting Autothrust (Reply 141): The question is not speed, it is acceleration.
Okay, understandable!
But then, as the Wikipedia says...
"A report in the Swiss news magazine FACTS reveals that in peacetime, the Swiss air force only provides ready-to-take-off aircraft during office hours on working days. The air force staff stated a peacetime 24/7 operational flying status as "mission impossible", due to budget limitations and limited professional (flying) personnel capacity. This did not apply to the air defense radar coverage of which 24/7 peacetime operational capacity was guaranteed."
If this hasn't changed, I don't know how they're solving this impasse by phasing out 42 Tigers and buying only 22 Gripens. But I agree that defense must be as economical as possible - nothing should have the smell of an expensive gewgaw.
Quoting Autothrust (Reply 141): Again i agree but, for what do we need a CAS aircraft ?It was however a big failure to dismiss the CASA-295 purchase plans.
Infantry/mechanized warfare support. There were times when our jets had an air-ground-role, but admittedly that was more justified in cold war times - destroying Soviet tank columns long before they reach Switzerland.
Quoting Autothrust (Reply 142): The released evaluation reports are flawed according to the federal councillor Ueli Maurer.
EXCELLENT way of doing damage control when a document was leaked! Hats off to Mr. Maurer
Even a letdown, if it is thoroughly and final, is a step forward.
FBWless From Sweden, joined Feb 2000, 181 posts, RR: 1 Reply 144, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 16331 times:
Quoting Devilfish (Reply 130): In a statement issued late the same day, the Rafale industry team countered that 'The Swiss-tailored Gripen only exists on paper', and claimed that its completion posed 'technical development and production risk significantly increasing the financial efforts required of the Swiss authorities'. It also challenged the customer nation's wider assumptions on cost.
Ignoring your competitors is dangerous in defense business. Rafale team has missed the Gripen NG Demo completely! Now of course this is not the final defined NG but much more close than calling the Gripen NG a paper plane.
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 143): If this hasn't changed, I don't know how they're solving this impasse by phasing out 42 Tigers and buying only 22 Gripens. But I agree that defense must be as economical as possible - nothing should have the smell of an expensive gewgaw.
Swedish AF replaced its 300+ SAAB 37 Viggen with 105 Gripen. Talk about downsizing!
FBWless From Sweden, joined Feb 2000, 181 posts, RR: 1 Reply 146, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 16136 times:
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 145): Is the Gripen that much reliable, or less maintenance-intensive?
The plans in the 80's and 90's were to have 204 Gripens in the Swedish AF but with major cutbacks of the Swedish defense and replanning, only 105 Gripens was finally needed.
Maintenance costs are low for Gripen and this has been an important factor in every Fighter RFP although not so often a winning one.
wvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 516 posts, RR: 0 Reply 147, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 15980 times:
Quoting Autothrust (Reply 141): I fully agree. For that job the Gripen is better suited then the F/A-18.
The F-18 superhornet if thats what everyone is refering to is over kill for the swiss, the gripen would provide them a low cost modern aircraft for what is needed it would also go to keep the US happy since a good many parts for the gripen including the engines are made by US companies and the aircraft can handle US ordinance in it. Perfect fit in my opinion. It helps keep a neighbor happy and the US happy even if they dont advertise it the US and swiss have always had a good relationship.
art From Lebanon, joined Feb 2005, 2937 posts, RR: 0 Reply 148, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 15950 times:
Gripen was chosen principally on the basis of cost, it seems, not all out capability. I wonder if Brazil will end up going down the Gripen route. With the air force apparently supporting Gripen selection for budgetary reasons, it only needs the government to choose on the basis of cost, development and production workshare (rather than strategic alliance with France) for Gripen to win.
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22057 posts, RR: 51 Reply 149, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 15643 times:
Aviation Week has a pretty good story and interview with Swiss Defense Minister regarding the selection process.
Basically the Gripen was the best overall option when things like fighter performance and cost were compared.
At the end of the day the Swiss would get the most bang for their Francs with the Saab compared to the more costly and complex peers.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
flagon From France, joined May 2007, 133 posts, RR: 0 Reply 150, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 14104 times:
That's not going well for the gripen in switzerland at the moment, because irregularities in the Gripen deal are now under deep investigation, and most importantly, Dassault has jumped onto this opportunity to make a cheaper offer than the gripen in proposing 18 Rafales for 2,2 billions of euros. This will make the decision makers under massive pressure and presumably it will be very difficult for the parliament to approve the gripen deal...
flagon From France, joined May 2007, 133 posts, RR: 0 Reply 151, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 13927 times:
Quick traduction from "Le Monde"
"French aircraft maker Dassault Aviation has offered Switzerland to buy 18 Rafale fighter jets for EUR 2.2 billion instead of 22 aircraft from Swedish rival Gripen.
The Swedish jets were recently preferred due to the lower price.
In addition, Dassault Aviation has offered the Swiss government special access to French military infrastructure, most notably to data collected by military satellites."
Well the access to the french military bases and data collected by military satellites has most probably been made by the french government, not by Dassault. There are also sources mentioning access for the swiss to french supersonic training areas, including the over the Mediteranee, and the possiblilty for the swiss crew to stay several weeks in french air bases if they want to
SAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 693 posts, RR: 0 Reply 152, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 14168 times:
Quoting flagon (Reply 151): The Swedish jets were recently preferred due to the lower price.
So offer i slightly better plane in less numbers and probably far less flight our/ $ is the solution to make them reconsider the Gripen decision? when they clearly stated that the Gripen is more than god enough for them combined with the F-18.....
flagon From France, joined May 2007, 133 posts, RR: 0 Reply 153, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 14149 times:
Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 152): So offer i slightly better plane in less numbers and probably far less flight our/ $ is the solution to make them reconsider the Gripen decision? when they clearly stated that the Gripen is more than god enough for them combined with the F-18.....
I don't think it is worth debating here how the plane performances compare to each other and/or what is the best option in terms life cycle cost, industrial, offset...
Let's leave the swiss decision makers debating that behind the scene.
All we can say is that this last move from Dassault and the french government is likely to mess up a bit the decision process on the gripen deal, especially if that eventually ends up being decided via a referendum, because what the average people will retain from all the press noise this last few weeks (rightly or wrongly) is that the Rafale is cheaper than the Gripen whilst displaying the best performance against a Gripen which didn't even meet the minimum requirement, and that the government tried to hide the gripen performance gaps by twicking the selection criteria that was originally set for the selection process.
That's in summary what you could read in the swiss press these last few weeks, so you have to admit that politically speaking that puts the parliament under quite some pressure...
SAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 693 posts, RR: 0 Reply 154, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 14151 times:
Quoting flagon (Reply 153): Rafale is cheaper than the Gripen whilst displaying the best performance against a Gripen which didn't even meet the minimum requirement,
Woow....that was all news to me......well,if the Gripen NG seems to be that poor, and the Rafale that cheap and superb,then there would´t be that hard to make a new decision......
flagon From France, joined May 2007, 133 posts, RR: 0 Reply 155, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 14139 times:
Quoting flagon (Reply 153): when they clearly stated that the Gripen is more than god enough for them combined with the F-18.....
Sorry slight correction here: the government (and more specifically the Swiss defence minister Ueli Maurer) made this statement to justify their choice.
Now the parliament has to approve this. The parliament is not forced to believe Ueli Maurer...
For information I believe the parliament itself has asked for a in depth investigation of the selection process as it would appear they have been leaks from source close to the air force selection process revealing irregularities in the way it was carried out. Amongst other things Saab would have approached Ueli Maurer directly to seduce him with an attractive industrial partnership, which constitutes a breach to the rules. Also as said before the relative weighting of the selection criteria would have modified in order to make gripen look not so underperforming as it actually was according to the original rating.
Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 154): then there would´t be that hard to make a new decision
not so fast, I think the gripen still has some good chance, at worst case the whole F5 fleet replacement program will be scraped for now, then resurected later and Saab may come back with a more agressive offer?
MillwallSean From Brunei, joined Apr 2008, 1115 posts, RR: 5 Reply 157, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 13866 times:
I find it interesting that when the Gripen wins a deal for beingt the best overall package including price its despite bad test results.
When the rafaelse fails hit and high tests etc in india and i quote "offered the cheapest price" the Rafaelse is a great airplane.
Lets put it this way, different planes different missions, different costs.
Both has to sell on price and there is a reason for that.
Desperation always affects price and the fewer deals a plane has won the higher the discounts. Rafale hasnt exactly raked in the export orders the last decade...
Devilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4429 posts, RR: 1 Reply 158, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 13807 times:
Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 157): Desperation always affects price and the fewer deals a plane has won the higher the discounts. Rafale hasnt exactly raked in the export orders the last decade...
Is that how one always managed to be the lowest bidder? After its MMRCA selection, the Rafale could be the odds on pick to get the exports for this decade.
flagon From France, joined May 2007, 133 posts, RR: 0 Reply 159, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 13491 times:
According to Agence France Press, Saab are cutting the price of the Gripen
"Saab to cut jet fighter price for Swiss:... Swedish defence firm Saab will cut the price on its Gripen fighter jet to ensure that it wins a Swiss order after French planemaker Dassault....etc"
SAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 693 posts, RR: 0 Reply 161, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 13498 times:
Quoting flagon (Reply 159): According to Agence France Press, Saab are cutting the price of the Gripen
I can confirm that the same news are in Swedish press also,but SAAB claims it as pure speculation at this point ,but what the "rumor" says is that SAAB would go below Rafales price and that the offer still is for 22 Gripen.
Please,Dassault,you got the big cake back in India,can't you let us have this small peace of cake??
regards SAAB.
[Edited 2012-02-08 10:20:53]
My personal point of wiew is that i belive SAAB is ready to go "a bit" to make this as atractive as possible,since it would have some impact on what Sweden will replace the C/D,s with. There are well known here that IF the Gripen NG is exported,Sweden probably will continiu with the Gripen NG also,and SAAB has left an offer already for 100 Gripen NG to the SWAF.
flagon From France, joined May 2007, 133 posts, RR: 0 Reply 162, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 13455 times:
Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 161): Please,Dassault,you got the big cake back in India
Dassault have not signed any contract yet, so they are not going to let go any opportunity, but if you want my personnal opinion, I think Dassault's chances in Switzerland are now very slim, because the political climat btw France and Switzerland is just not very good at the minute, plus Saab have probably a lot more flexibility in cutting their prices.
flagon From France, joined May 2007, 133 posts, RR: 0 Reply 163, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 13168 times:
New leaks about the swiss evaluation published today, this time it looks a lot more authentic than the previous leaks in swiss newspapers as this report is signed by the commander of the Swiss Air Force himself:
Strong points of Rafale:
Quality of its sensors like PESA radar, OSF and SPECTRA, good data fusion.
Weak point: lack of HMD
Strong point of Eurefighter: perfomance like Supercruise at M1.4
Weak points: data fusion and EW suite.
"range and system reliability were amonsgt the weak points of the Eurofighter"
About the gripen:
"the gripen has been rated as unsatisfactory in the accomplishment of Air-to-Air and Strike missions"
It is worth having a read through that report, really...
FBWless From Sweden, joined Feb 2000, 181 posts, RR: 1 Reply 164, posted (8 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 10430 times:
The deal for 22 Gripen E's (single seat) has been signed!
- Price is fixed at CHF 3.126 billion, which is almost equal in USD for the moment.
- Delivery starts in 2018 and ends in 2021.
- Switzerland will lease 8 Gripen C and 4 Gripen D from 2016 to 2020 as an interim solution. Lease is CHF 44 million each year.
ebj1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 2 Reply 165, posted (8 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 10091 times:
Quoting flagon (Reply 163): Strong points of Rafale:
Quality of its sensors like PESA radar, OSF and SPECTRA, good data fusion.
Weak point: lack of HMD
Strong point of Eurefighter: perfomance like Supercruise at M1.4
Weak points: data fusion and EW suite.
"range and system reliability were amonsgt the weak points of the Eurofighter"
About the gripen:
"the gripen has been rated as unsatisfactory in the accomplishment of Air-to-Air and Strike missions"
If this is true, how did the Gripen end up winning? My best guess is that it won based on program price. For the price, Gripen is a very good fighter. It's no Typhoon nor Rafale, but it's no slouch either.
Acheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1418 posts, RR: 1 Reply 166, posted (8 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 9952 times:
Quoting ebj1248650 (Reply 165):
If this is true, how did the Gripen end up winning? My best guess is that it won based on program price. For the price, Gripen is a very good fighter. It's no Typhoon nor Rafale, but it's no slouch either.
I would also guess it is a better fit to the Swiss way of defense, plus shares engines with the F/A-18 they already operate.
ThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1065 posts, RR: 0 Reply 167, posted (8 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 9843 times:
Quoting Acheron (Reply 166):
I would also guess it is a better fit to the Swiss way of defense, plus shares engines with the F/A-18 they already operate.
No parts commonality between the F/A-18 and the Gripen's engines. Same family of engines.
Quoting ebj1248650 (Reply 165):
If this is true, how did the Gripen end up winning? My best guess is that it won based on program price. For the price, Gripen is a very good fighter. It's no Typhoon nor Rafale, but it's no slouch either.
Comparing the deal to everyone else, it seems the Swiss paid more for Gripens compared to other comparable aircraft, such as the F-16 Block 52. Compared to the Peace Xenia IV deal, the Greeks under that deal were to get 30 new block 52 F-16s with an option on 10 more. The first batch consists of 20 C-models and 10 D-models. Total contract value is estimated at $3.1 billion if all options are exercised, and total package also includes the delivery of 40 F100-PW-229 engines and APG-68(V)9 radars, 42 JHMCS, 40 AN/AVS-9 Generation III NVG's, 190 LAU-129/A launchers, 48 Link-16 MIDS-LVT, 3 Link-16 ground stations, 10 LANTIRN pods, 11 recce pods, 2 recce ground stations, 40 APX-113 Advanced IFF systems, 43 AN/ALQ-187 ASPIS, 6 spare F100-PW-229 engines, 3 APG-68(V)9 spare radar sets, 4 AGM-154C JSOW, 6 JDAM (3 BLU-10 and 3 MK-84 bomb bodies) and 4 WCMD's.
So the Greeks got more aircraft and more equipment for the same price. Too bad the Viper wasn't offered...
ebj1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 2 Reply 169, posted (8 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9733 times:
Gripen will serve the Swiss well. Were Typhoon and Rafale perhaps too much airplane for the Swiss?
checksixx From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 996 posts, RR: 0 Reply 170, posted (8 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 9585 times:
Quoting Acheron (Reply 168): Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 167):
No parts commonality between the F/A-18 and the Gripen's engines. Same family of engines.
Yeah, just realized the actual order is for Gripen NG's and the C/D are actually leased. My bad for misreading.
Again...not the same engines. You wouldn't be able to switch the motor's out between Gripen C/D's and the Hornets at all.
SAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 693 posts, RR: 0 Reply 172, posted (8 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 9400 times:
Quoting ebj1248650 (Reply 169): Gripen will serve the Swiss well. Were Typhoon and Rafale perhaps too much airplane for the Swiss?
well,since gripen is the choice of a F-5 replacement and not a F-18 replacement,i don't get it why even the Rafale or the EF ever was considered at the first time......to place a Rafale ore the EF on top of the F-18 seems to be "a bit much" as a F-5 replacement, isn't it?
flyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 1286 posts, RR: 2 Reply 173, posted (8 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 9402 times:
Because Switzerland is such a small country (350 km / 190 nm), wouldn't it make sense to buy Alenia Aermacchi M-346 for the single, credible airborne threat we can defend against, namely terrorist attacks using GA aircraft?
One could start an airliner at ZRH and less than fifteen minutes later, our parliament building is a smoldering heap of rubble... we do QRA (quick reaction alert) missions only from Monday to Friday during office times, for extended times we don't have the financial means.
I wonder why Austria has Eurofighter/Typhoons. Too much money in their hands?
David
Even a letdown, if it is thoroughly and final, is a step forward.
autothrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1480 posts, RR: 8 Reply 174, posted (8 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 9387 times:
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 173): M-346 for the single, credible airborne threat we can defend against, namely terrorist attacks using GA aircraft?
Why not buy some Tor missile system/SA-15 GAUNTLET and place it at parliament building, this system is even capable to detect and destroy precision bombs.
ThePointblank From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 1065 posts, RR: 0 Reply 176, posted (8 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 9251 times:
Quoting autothrust (Reply 171): That's correct, The budget was secretly set to 3bn. So in reality neither the Rafale or Typhoon had a chance from beginning.
This whole procurement set's the bar higher for the most pathetic ever in the history of Switzerland.
It remains to be seen if SAAB can deliver on this fixed price.
You can always buy Block 52 Viper's... or even Block 60's for that matter. The UAE bought 80 of those for $6.4 billion.
Quoting autothrust (Reply 174): Why not buy some Tor missile system/SA-15 GAUNTLET and place it at parliament building, this system is even capable to detect and destroy precision bombs.
Would be cheaper then the Gripen.
Nah, let's be NATO compatible. NASAMS. The Swiss still have the Rapier missile system that needs replacement soon.
ebj1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 2 Reply 177, posted (8 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 9254 times:
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 175): Yes, our Mirage IIIS and IIIRS procurement only developed into a desaster when we started to build them... the Gripen is a trainwreck right now.
How is this so? I was under the impression the Swiss AF got very good service from their Mirages and until you said something about it, I didn't realize their building the airplane was such a problem? And how is the Gripen a "trainwreck ..." ?
flyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 1286 posts, RR: 2 Reply 179, posted (8 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9181 times:
Quoting ebj1248650 (Reply 177): How is this so? I was under the impression the Swiss AF got very good service from their Mirages and until you said something about it, I didn't realize their building the airplane was such a problem? And how is the Gripen a "trainwreck ..." ?
Talk about HUGE cost overruns. We built the Mirages ourselves under licence. Neither the army nor the government issued specifications the aircraft should fulfil, so the commission tasked with the selection decided on the Mirage, at the time the fastest jet fighter in the world.
We hardened the fuselages to lift them by crane, we attached hardpoints for jet-assisted takeoffs, and then the RS version (S = Suisse, R = Reconnaissance) suffered aerodynamically from the photo pods, they had to be redevelopped. We took the French electronics out and replaced them by U.S. ones in order to use the AIM-4.
In the aftermath,the first parliamentary fact-finding commission in Swiss history was established.
In our dialect, we still have the expression "mirage holes", and it does not refer to the caverns where we maintained and stored the aircraft. It just sounds like the dialect expression "we a$$holes".
SAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 693 posts, RR: 0 Reply 180, posted (8 months 19 hours ago) and read 8450 times:
Dassault has now once again (which number in order i don't know,lost track) sent a offer to the Swiss, they offer 22 Rafale for the EXACT same price as 22 Gripen NG,s......a price reduction with almost 3 Billion $ from the first offer they made It,s known that Rafale are 3 times as expensive to run and maintain than the Gripen so they cant do much about that i guess,but what i wonder is.....wouldn't India be very interested in this huge price reduction they offer the Swiss?
flyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 1286 posts, RR: 2 Reply 181, posted (8 months 19 hours ago) and read 8434 times:
Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 180): wouldn't India be very interested in this huge price reduction they offer the Swiss?
Hehe. It's funny how this will play out.
It came to light that the main criterium would be the costs, and after the competitors knew about that, Dassault and EADS are offering aircraft for 3.1 billion too... and there was an earlier memorandum of understanding that the Swiss would buy Gripens. Not a fair setting IMHO.
If the Swiss do not purchase the Gripen, Saab would have to close its production line earlier and the government has to shell out subventions - a severe setback for the small manufacturer. So, EADS and Dassault try to shoot down the Gripen purchase by offering discounted jets.
David
Even a letdown, if it is thoroughly and final, is a step forward.
I have always been more worried of the Swiss referendum than of Dassault....whats funny is,that there is a risk that there wont be any fighter at all to replace the F-5.
Devilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4429 posts, RR: 1 Reply 184, posted (8 months 10 hours ago) and read 8303 times:
Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 180): wouldn't India be very interested in this huge price reduction they offer the Swiss?
With the MMRCA negotiations projected to be completed in March 2013, Dassault probably already has a good handle on the lowest price they could offer India without giving away the store.....
It is a safe bet that whatever reduction they propose to Switzerland already took into account the sundry permutations of order volume, offset requirements, tech transfer, support and training based on the IAF tender which could impact the final unit flyaway cost for the Swiss. Plus any economies of scale such a potential "snatched" sale would bring.
This could also be the real reason Brazil is delaying the outcome of its FX-2 competition for the second half of next year.....
Translating to English, these are the key points as discussed in the article:
- The Gripen demonstrator could not complete a interception test with a F/A-18 Hornet as it ran out of fuel reserves to do the interception. A Rafale on a similar test was able to complete the test with fuel to spare. Even with the anticipated Gripen NG, air interceptions would be very tight affairs with fuel management, compared to the Hornet. Changes to the strategy for air interceptions will be required due to Gripen's limitations
- A request by Swiss officials to flight test 450 gallon external fuel tanks was refused by Swedish and SAAB authorities
- On the twenty-six test flights flown by Gripen, the plane landed four times with the reserves of fuel below the minimum levels
- There are a total of 98 issues identified with Gripen that will need addressing to meet requirements
- Demonstrator could not exceed Mach 1.34 as the engine air intakes need redesigning
- AMRAAM and IRST integration has not even progressed past mockup phase
- Swiss evaluators were frustrated by the limitations imposed by Swedish authorities and the demonstrator's lack of maturity. A flight test was actually scrubbed for photo ops, leaving some test points uncompleted
- The new AESA radar adds 200kg to the nose of the aircraft, creating a situation of a nose-down trim. To compensate, the rear fuselage will need to be extended 37cm
- 70% of components on Gripen NG will be new. The Gripen NG will essentially be an all new aircraft. Developmental risks as assessed are fairly high
- The Air Force evaluation team preferred the Rafale, followed closely by the Eurofighter.
- Delivery is anticipated to not occur before 2023
This seems to jive with the leaked reported above that Gripen had trouble meeting requirements, and that it was not the preferred aircraft.
flagon From France, joined May 2007, 133 posts, RR: 0 Reply 186, posted (6 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6253 times:
Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 185): The new AESA radar adds 200kg to the nose of the aircraft, creating a situation of a nose-down trim. To compensate, the rear fuselage will need to be extended 37cm
I wonder how the Eurofighter will accomodate the weight increase from its AESA radar and whether its customers are prepared to fund whatever fix will be required. Because it does not look like a simple costmetic fix to do....
TGIF From Sweden, joined Apr 2008, 273 posts, RR: 0 Reply 187, posted (6 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 6042 times:
Quoting flagon (Reply 186): This seems to jive with the leaked reported above that Gripen had trouble meeting requirements, and that it was not the preferred aircraft.
That article is from May and a lot has happened since then. Looks like the article didn't have the desired effect as the leakers (oh I wonder who they might be...) was hoping for.
Historically, Patrouille Suisse has often used the oldest equipment. I don't think the Tigers will be retired soon.
Between 1959 and 1964 (National Fair), a squadron was tasked to train formation flying with the Hawker Hunter - at that time, it was the newest equipment of our air force. Later, after the P-16 and N-20 swiss-built fighters did not materialize, we bought additional, second-hand Hunters. And they have always used those Hunters until 1994, when they changed to F-5E Tigers.
David
Even a letdown, if it is thoroughly and final, is a step forward.
art From Lebanon, joined Feb 2005, 2937 posts, RR: 0 Reply 192, posted (6 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 5795 times:
Le Matin wants a French aircraft to replace Tiger, I think. If Gripen were made in France and Rafale anywhere outside of France, Le Matin would be telling us how brilliant Gripen is and how bad Rafale is, I think.
Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 185): - The Gripen demonstrator could not complete a interception test with a F/A-18 Hornet as it ran out of fuel reserves to do the interception. A Rafale on a similar test was able to complete the test with fuel to spare. Even with the anticipated Gripen NG, air interceptions would be very tight affairs with fuel management, compared to the Hornet. Changes to the strategy for air interceptions will be required due to Gripen's limitations
I have problems seeing how you could hit fuel problems intercepting an aircraft. I don't think it is possible to fly more than 350Km in any direction without leaving Swiss airspace. For a squadron stationed in central Switzerland, the Swiss border would never be more than about 200Km.
Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 185): - - A request by Swiss officials to flight test 450 gallon external fuel tanks was refused by Swedish and SAAB authorities
- On the twenty-six test flights flown by Gripen, the plane landed four times with the reserves of fuel below the minimum levels
- There are a total of 98 issues identified with Gripen that will need addressing to meet requirements
- Demonstrator could not exceed Mach 1.34 as the engine air intakes need redesigning
- AMRAAM and IRST integration has not even progressed past mockup phase
- Swiss evaluators were frustrated by the limitations imposed by Swedish authorities and the demonstrator's lack of maturity. A flight test was actually scrubbed for photo ops, leaving some test points uncompleted
- The new AESA radar adds 200kg to the nose of the aircraft, creating a situation of a nose-down trim. To compensate, the rear fuselage will need to be extended 37cm
- 70% of components on Gripen NG will be new. The Gripen NG will essentially be an all new aircraft. Developmental risks as assessed are fairly high
- The Air Force evaluation team preferred the Rafale, followed closely by the Eurofighter.
- Delivery is anticipated to not occur before 2023
Well, almost everything that could be wrong was wrong, it seems, according to Le Matin. I don't believe all they say. I don't think they are a reliable source.
For example, they say:
- delivery is anticipated to not occur before 2023.
What is their source for this?
- Demonstrator could not exceed Mach 1.34 as the engine air intakes need redesigning
I think that is nonsense. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think thrust required to achieve M1.34 is roughly half what is required to achieve M2.0, so according to Le Matin thrust is down by roughly 50% (assuming drag of E/F being the same as drag of C/D).
Quote: The first of 22 JAS 39Es will arrive in mid-2018. Eleven aircraft are to be handed over by the end of 2019 with the remainder arriving in 2020-21.
columba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 6799 posts, RR: 5 Reply 194, posted (6 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5765 times:
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 191): Historically, Patrouille Suisse has often used the oldest equipment. I don't think the Tigers will be retired soon.
Between 1959 and 1964 (National Fair), a squadron was tasked to train formation flying with the Hawker Hunter - at that time, it was the newest equipment of our air force. Later, after the P-16 and N-20 swiss-built fighters did not materialize, we bought additional, second-hand Hunters. And they have always used those Hunters until 1994, when they changed to F-5E Tigers.
Okay, maybe Patrouille Suisse will get some older 2nd Gripens in the future then. I honestly don´t believe that the Tigers wil be kept just for the PS when they will be retired with the air force.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
flyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 1286 posts, RR: 2 Reply 195, posted (6 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5770 times:
Quoting columba (Reply 194): Okay, maybe Patrouille Suisse will get some older 2nd Gripens in the future then. I honestly don´t believe that the Tigers wil be kept just for the PS when they will be retired with the air force.
The Tigers will be kept anyway until the Gripen is in service. Like the Hunters were phased out from PS *and* regular air force service in 1994.
Then, the Patrouille Suisse might fly with F/A-18C...
David
Even a letdown, if it is thoroughly and final, is a step forward.
art From Lebanon, joined Feb 2005, 2937 posts, RR: 0 Reply 197, posted (6 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5758 times:
Quoting as739x (Reply 196): Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 11):
it has something to do with buying the aircraft cheap (fly-away cost) and pay through your nose for everything else
Sounds like an Airbus
Are you just saying that because you are as737x (don't think Airbus make 737's) or is there actually something in what you say?
I don't see a pattern of airlines ordering Airbus then when it comes to fleet replacement after many years of "paying through the nose for everything else" those airlines saying "We are not going to make that mistake again!"
Quote: "Saab’s preliminary costs submitted to the government suggest the company can deliver a Gripen E/F at roughly $80 million per jet.
Moreover, the government puts the total cost of acquiring 40 to 60 aircraft, including development and lifecycle costs, at $13.5 billion. The Air Force expects to take delivery of the first Gripen E/F aircraft in 2023, with the fighter expected to stay in service until 2043.
Swiss Partnership Shaky
Saab’s figures for serial production are based on receiving a final order for 22 E/F fighters from Switzerland. Sweden in August guaranteed delivery for a fixed cost of $3.25 billion."
A bit of irony that the more a fighter costs and gets modern...the shorter it is expected to stay in service.
flyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 1286 posts, RR: 2 Reply 199, posted (6 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5702 times:
...and there was even a story about a treaty between Switzerland and Sweden. And even the Defense Ministry did not know if it was a memorandum of understanding, or a binding contract.
And seemingly, this contract was with the Swedish government, not with Saab.
All Swiss are amateurs, give or take...
David
Even a letdown, if it is thoroughly and final, is a step forward.
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,but what the "rumor" says is that SAAB would go below Rafales price and that the offer still is for 22 Gripen.
From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1418 posts, 
It,s known that Rafale are 3 times as expensive to run and maintain than the Gripen so they cant do much about that i guess,but what i wonder is.....wouldn't India be very interested in this huge price reduction they offer the Swiss?
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