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Norway Requests Gripen Offer For F-16 Replacement  
User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3382 posts, RR: 1
Posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 12459 times:

"The Royal Norwegian MoD has requested FMV, Sweden’s Defence Materiel Administration, to submit binding proposals for the replacement of its ageing fleet of F-16’s with the Gripen fighter."

http://www.gripen.com/en/MediaRelations/News/2008/080118_no_rbi.htm

42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineArniePie From Belgium, joined Aug 2005, 1265 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 12439 times:

I always tought it could be a good idea for Belgium and Norway together with other smaller european countries to team up again (like they did with the F16 program) and make a joined request for a F16 replacement, the Gripen certainly sounds like a good idea as it is affordable and can be acquired in substantial numbers.
Also there is enough growth potential (stronger engine, Meteor missiles, AESA?, ....) for it to last a long time.



[edit post]
User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 12431 times:



Quoting Art (Thread starter):
to submit binding proposals for the replacement of its ageing fleet of F-16’s with the Gripen fighter.

Binding for both sides? The Danish MOD was criticized for demanding "informational proposals" in an attempt to apparently just back up an already made decision in favor of the JSF (which SAAB and Eurofighter refused to make, I read a rather harsh comment on this from EADS military boss Hamilton)


User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4875 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 12368 times:

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 1):
I always tought it could be a good idea for Belgium and Norway together with other smaller european countries to team up again (like they did with the F16 program) and make a joined request for a F16 replacement,



Quoting PADSpot (Reply 2):

Binding for both sides? The Danish MOD was criticized for demanding "informational proposals" in an attempt to apparently just back up an already made decision in favor of the JSF (which SAAB and Eurofighter refused to make,

It's really curious that Norway and Switzerland issued RFPs to Gripen at the same time. While it could be seen as justification for the JSF, driving a better bargain with LockMart in terms of offsets and price seems a more convincing motivation. And going by their statement, SAAB in this instance is very pleased at complying with the requests in contrast to the Danish case.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_JAS-39N_Concept_Water_lg.jpg

Gripen Invited to Tender for Norwegian, Swiss Fighter Programs
(Jan 18)

Quote:
"'We are delighted that Sweden, through FMV, has been invited to propose what we confidently believe will be the complete solution to meet Norway's future combat aircraft requirements.'

[.....]

'The Gripen team is delighted to be invited by the Swiss authorities to meet Switzerland's future combat aircraft needs'."


http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...f38AAAEAAB--ZiUAAAAR&modele=jdc_34

It's really interesting that other offerors were not mentioned in Norway's case, and only comparatively bigger aircraft in the Swiss announcement. None for this.....



[Edited 2008-01-18 09:34:50]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 781 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 12367 times:

Unfortunately, i think that Norway is in the hands of USA and the JSF. I would be surprised if the would go for the Gripen. I think it was the US foreign minister that say regarding to this deal "No contract.less contact"......  biting 


It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 12351 times:



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 3):
It's really curious that Norway and Switzerland issued RFPs to Gripen at the same time. While it could be seen as justification for the JSF, driving a better bargain with LockMart in terms of offsets and price seems a more convincing motivation. And going by their statement, SAAB in this instance is very pleased at complying with the requests in contrast to the Danish case.....

It would be news to me that the Swiss had more than superficial negotiations with LockMart about the JSF. Replacing F-5s with EF or JSFs would be a large leap in capacity. However, my two cents are on the Gripen (or maybe Block-60 F-16s). Replacing a 5Mil$ F-5 with a 120++Mil$ EF or JSF is way beyond what you can sell to a democratic decision making institution.

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 4):
Unfortunately, i think that Norway is in the hands of USA and the JSF. I would be surprised if the would go for the Gripen. I think it was the US foreign minister that say regarding to this deal "No contract.less contact"...... biting

It is much more likely that EADS sells EFs to Norway than to Denmark. The Norwegian Government was more than pleased when Eurofighter transfered certain development and production packages to Norway even before they have entered into negotiations. They addressed exactly the concerns Norway had about the JSF project ...


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13229 posts, RR: 77
Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 12325 times:

Could it come down to what one gives the best industrial payoff for Norway.
Remember, the Norwegians have a competent defence/aerospace sector, in particular with guided weapons that are often innovative.
(I would like to see the UK adopt the NSM, a new sea or air or ground launched anti ship missile, also very capable at land attack/littoral warfare and generally very smart and new generation, for RN ships, EH-101's, F-35's, maybe even RAF Typhoons too).


User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3985 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 12281 times:

read about NSM missile here:

http://www.kongsberg.com/eng/kda/pro...iles/NavalxStrikexMissile&id=32934

There are plans to develop a multi-role version of the NSM, with ground strike being an option. This missile will be integrated with the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II "Joint Strike Fighter", and might be integrated with the Eurofighter and the JAS 39 Gripen as well. Studies have shown that the F-35 would be able to carry two of these in its internal bays, while additional missiles could be carried externally.

According to Kongsberg, this "multi-role NSM" is the only anti-ship missile that will fit inside the F-35's internal bays.[1] Lockheed Martin and Kongsberg have signed a joint-marketing agreement for this air-launched version of the NSM, called the Joint Strike Missile (JSM). The project is funded by Norway and Australia.[2][3] The JSM is planned to feature a two-way communications line, so that the missile can communicate with the central control room or other missiles in the air. By September 2007 the missile development is still only at the planning stage ( Wikipedia )



another missile " The Penguin " is also a Norwegian missile also used by the US Navy:

Penguin Mk2 Mod7 for Naval helicopters:

http://www.kongsberg.com/eng/kda/pro...oducts/Missiles/Mk2xModx7&id=32932

Penguin Mk2 Mod7 for ships:

http://www.kongsberg.com/eng/kda/pro...siles/MK2xModx7xforxships&id=32938


Penguin Mk3 for fighter and patrol aircraft

http://www.kongsberg.com/eng/kda/pro...KDA/Products/Missiles/Mk3&id=32933

[Edited 2008-01-18 12:48:22]

User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13229 posts, RR: 77
Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 12240 times:

Yes, I was thinking about NSM in relation to F-35 carriage, as well as on RN ships and helicopters.
It would provide a common system as well as being modern and designed with today's scenarios in mind, not just hitting major warships out at sea.


User currently offlineF27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days ago) and read 12178 times:

The big disadvantage JSF has at the moment is that future more modern missiles like METEOR, IRIS-T are not integrated.

Integration of the Norwegian misslise would be a great thing


User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3985 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 12116 times:

The NSM do fit in to the bay of the JSF

User currently offlineF27Friendship From Netherlands, joined Jul 2007, 1125 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (6 years 9 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 11999 times:



Quoting Mortyman (Reply 10):
The NSM do fit in to the bay of the JSF



Quoting Mortyman (Reply 7):
According to Kongsberg, this "multi-role NSM" is the only anti-ship missile that will fit inside the F-35's internal bays.[



User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 781 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 11938 times:

On the news this morning,they told us that for the deal to come true,Norway also want Sweden to buy this "supergrip" ore E/F version. Sweden holds about 130 C/D Gripps to day and to replace those with E/F version,only 48 units will sustain security at the same level as before....  scratchchin  The C/D versions,where would they go?  Confused I have a hard time seeing this deal goes true......


It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 11912 times:



Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 12):
Sweden holds about 130 C/D Gripps to day



Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 12):
The C/D versions,where would they go?

If only life were so simple as to supply them to an Asian country in urgent need of replacing MiG 21's.


User currently offlineEBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 11882 times:



Quoting Art (Reply 13):
Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 12):
The C/D versions,where would they go?

If only life were so simple as to supply them to an Asian country in urgent need of replacing MiG 21's.

Has the Gripen been offered to nations outside of Europe?



Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently offlineAgill From Sweden, joined Feb 2004, 1011 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 9 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 11869 times:



Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 14):

Has the Gripen been offered to nations outside of Europe?

Thailand did buy them didn't they? And they have been offered to at least India, Brazil and Chile... I think  Smile


User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3771 posts, RR: 13
Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 11835 times:



Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 14):

Has the Gripen been offered to nations outside of Europe?

And South Africa has 20-30 on order, I believe.

Cheers
Mats



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 781 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 9 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 11815 times:



Quoting Doona (Reply 16):
And South Africa has 20-30 on order, I believe

26 to be exact (9 two seaters and 17 single)



It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4875 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (6 years 9 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 11707 times:



Quoting PADSpot (Reply 5):
It is much more likely that EADS sells EFs to Norway than to Denmark. The Norwegian Government was more than pleased when Eurofighter transfered certain development and production packages to Norway even before they have entered into negotiations. They addressed exactly the concerns Norway had about the JSF project ...

Selling Typhoons to Norway may be a bit difficult now that EADS has withdrawn the Eurofighter from the contest.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...ntinued-dogfights-in-norway-03034/

Quote:
"Dec 21/07: EADS pulls its Eurofighter out of the Norwegian and Danish competitions, leaving both future fighter programs as a straight-up competition between the JAS-39 and the F-35. The rationales given are vague and make little sense, but many sources believe the key objection is official favoritism toward the F-35. The government-to-government nature of the F-35 deal, it seems, wouldn't require the same industrial offsets, though the F-35 program has pledged significant production contracts with Denmark's Terma and with Norwegian firms."

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 12):
On the news this morning,they told us that for the deal to come true,Norway also want Sweden to buy this "supergrip" ore E/F version. Sweden holds about 130 C/D Gripps to day and to replace those with E/F version,only 48 units will sustain security at the same level as before.... scratchchin The C/D versions,where would they go? Confused I have a hard time seeing this deal goes true......

This makes matters very complicated for SAAB as Sweden is commited to a reduced 100-fighter fleet. They need a big win in the following to ease the pressure.....

Quoting Agill (Reply 15):
And they have been offered to at least India, Brazil and Chile... I think



From the link above.....

Quote:
"The Gripen's new 'next generation' JAS-39N version is a single engine fighter, which may be able to offset some of the existing Gripen model's range issue. It has already garnered key political support, however, and is considered to be superior to the F-35 in speed, agility, likely sticker price – and possibly even in jobs, given the Gripen's connection to Volvo industrial benefits.

[.....]

Despite all this, it would be highly surprising if Norway would decide to pull out of the JSF program now that the production MoU is signed. Although the Norwegian government stresses that no final decision will be made before 2008, there is little doubt that any Norwegian withdrawal after signing this latest MoU has significant potential to become a political scandal. Tom Burbage has previously stated that should Norway choose to withdraw, it could trigger demands of reparations from Lockheed Martin in the range of almost $1 billion. While this is an expected negotiating tactic, it's a demand that would be backed by contract provisions that could not simply be ignored.

The effects a withdrawal could have on the JSF program as a whole are unknown, but they could be significant despite the small number of aircraft involved (approximately 80).

[.....]

Finally, the F-35 enjoys systemic preference, in that it reportedly has the support of the Air Force and the military bureaucracy, while the JAS-39 Gripen for instance enjoys predominantly political and some industrial support."


http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_F-35A_AA-1_Landing_lg.jpg

So it looks like a one-on-one battle, with LockMart having the incumbent position and a fallback option (although it's not solicited) of unilaterally offering a next generation Falcon should they verge on being beaten in price.

Quoting Art (Reply 13):
If only life were so simple as to supply them to an Asian country in urgent need of replacing MiG 21's.

Make that old F-5s.....

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Photo © Piotr Biskupski


There's always the Philippines waiting for bargain basement offers and hand-me-downs.  Wink



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (6 years 9 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 11672 times:



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 18):
Quoting Art (Reply 13):
If only life were so simple as to supply them to an Asian country in urgent need of replacing MiG 21's.

Make that old F-5s.....

There's always the Philippines waiting for bargain basement offers and hand-me-downs.

Good point. Would be very useful to Saab if the Philippines were interested in buying a shedload of used Gripens.


User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 781 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 9 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 11657 times:

News paper this morning says that SAAB has offered Denmark a deal for 48 Gripen,training,simulators and service for 4.6 bilj $ and thats a similar deal that SAAB will offer Norway..... This is probably not written in stone.


It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (6 years 9 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 11654 times:



Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 20):
News paper this morning says that SAAB has offered Denmark a deal for 48 Gripen,training,simulators and service for 4.6 bilj $

Do you know if that is for the proposed upgraded Gripen?


User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 781 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 9 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 11652 times:



Quoting Art (Reply 21):
Do you know if that is for the proposed upgraded Gripen?

Dosent say,but i guess it is because thats the plane Norway want,but i,m not 100%.



It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
User currently offlineBengan From Sweden, joined Jul 2007, 43 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 9 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 11615 times:

Quoting Art (Reply 21):

Do you know if that is for the proposed upgraded Gripen?


It is.

22 billion dkk($4.3b) includes 48 aircraft, training, spares and maintenance for 20 years.

Artists Impression:



/Bengt

[Edited 2008-01-23 23:05:16]

User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (6 years 9 months 22 hours ago) and read 11589 times:

"US concerned over Norway's $8bn fighter selection programme, Saab's Gripen may be favoured news

15 January 2008...

[edited out]

...US concerns have come to the fore amid efforts by Norway and Sweden to increase their defence cooperation, including the possible establishment of joint army, naval and air force units and potential common procurement programmes for major defence equipment.

Norwegian government sources have been quoted in the media as saying that very likely a landmark agreement between Norway and Sweden may come about in 2008 that would involve an unprecedented level of collaboration between the defence forces of each country.

Such cooperation would involve interoperability of equipment as a key issue.

Under such a joint military programme, sources said, two or more Nordic nations, most probably Sweden and Norway, will establish a common fighter unit to police their national airspace or participate in international operations.

Such an eventuality may be the reason for the withdrawal of the Eurofighter consortium from the bidding process."

Source: http://www.domain-b.com/aero/mil_avi/mil_aircraft/20080115_norway.html via link from http://www.air-attack.com/news/news_...-Saabs-Gripen-may-be-favoured.html

If Norway and Sweden are considering such a radical political move to ultra-close co-operation on defence, this puts the whole F-16 replacement program in a different light. No longer a Gripen v F-35 evaluation but a re-evaluation of Norway's defence strategy.

It would be interesting to see a military parallel to SAS. Anyone have any idea if Denmark would be interested in much closer defence co-operation with Sweden and Norway?


Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 18):
Tom Burbage has previously stated that should Norway choose to withdraw, it could trigger demands of reparations from Lockheed Martin in the range of almost $1 billion. While this is an expected negotiating tactic, it's a demand that would be backed by contract provisions that could not simply be ignored.

I have no idea how much it would cost Norway (financially) to switch out of the F-35 but I have read that the US will still be paying at least $100 million per airframe in 2012, if I remember correctly.

On that basis a deal similar to the one offered to Denmark for 48 upgraded Gripens mentioned below looks extremely attractive.

Quoting Bengan (Reply 23):
22 billion dkk($4.3b) includes 48 aircraft, training, spares and maintenance for 20 years.



25 Post contains images SAS A340 : Probably thats why Norway demanded Sweden to also acquire the N version for a possible deal....there might be things going on here that we dont know
26 F27Friendship : that's a lot of bombs (drag)
27 Post contains images PADSpot : looks badass
28 Post contains links DEVILFISH : Update: Gripen proposal submitted..... http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...-Bid-With-a-Twist-04865/#more-4865 Quote: "'An integral part of the Swed
29 Brendows : And huge pylons (drag)... That thing would light up like a Christmas tree on radars
30 Wvsuperhornet : Maybe I missed it but is norway looking for in a fighter? An Interceptor or an multirole aircraft?
31 Mortyman : Multirole Tom Burbage of the JSF said yeasterday that 48 JSF would cost under 20 billion NOK
32 Mortyman : Trust me, it would never happen
33 Checksixx : Strange...wasn't Norway complaining about the 'short range' of the F-35 recently? The F-35's combat radius is nothing short of awesome and now they're
34 Wvsuperhornet : Well I guess if they aren't happy with the F-35 they could always go to an F-15E version. They would lose the stealth but would have their range cover
35 TGIF : The Gripen NG will have a range of 4000km (2485 miles, 2160 nm) according to Linköping based newspaper Corren. I'll try to find an electronic source
36 Art : I think the only contenders are F-35, Gripen and (possibly) Typhoon.
37 Moriarty : Is that with our without drop tanks? It would be interesting to see a breakdown in range with and without drop tanks for both a/c.
38 Brendows : That has to be ferry range with external tanks (ferry range for the current Gripen is about 3000km IIRC.) The internal tank volume for the Gripen dem
39 TGIF : Yes I believe external tanks are included and thats why we need some figures for the F-35 with external tank (or Gripen without them) to get an equal
40 Art : When I said possibly Typhoon, that would be in the unlikely event that Norway did not want to accept either the F-35 or Gripen proposals and asked Eu
41 Checksixx : Can you feel your car screeching to a stop? First, the Gripen range is WITH external tanks in a ferry configuration. Its combat radius is around 500
42 TGIF : Yes, as I stated in my post it is WITH external fuel tanks, nothing else... I was trying to compare it's ferry configuration to the F-35 ferry config
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