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Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?  
User currently offlineLHStarAlliance From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 9304 times:

Hi guys !

Could it be Possible that the Luftwaffe orders A/Cs like the F22 ? Of American Production , or just A/Cs of EADS ?


Constantin

43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEBJ1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 9301 times:

In the past, the Luftwaffe has ordered American airplanes. Examples include the F-84F, RF-84F, F-4F and other non-combat types. There's no reason to believe the Luftwaffe wouldn't buy an American airplane if it fits their needs better than anything else that's available and the price is right.

On the flip side, strong confidence in the European aircraft manufacturers and better airplanes from those sources makes buying European a smart thing to do. Typhoon is an outstanding fighter and there's really little need to buy the F-22.



Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently offlineVenus6971 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1443 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 9291 times:

If the dollar to Euro exchange rate is good it might make good fiscal sense to buy US.


I would help you but it is not in the contract
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 9290 times:

It seem to me the JSF is a best in class aircraft but I don't see a place directly in the Luftwaffe for it. Then again the large Tornado fleet needs to be replaced by (probably, likely) a twin engined, stealth, long range, 2 crew, air-ground attack aircraft, with long range, buddy refuelling capability and a of lot a sensors for typical regional crisis operations, a bit F111 / Su-32 like. It seems the USAF is looking for similar aircraft and they are not the only ones, so who knows, a joint project?

User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6485 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 9270 times:



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter):
Could it be Possible that the Luftwaffe orders A/Cs like the F22 ? Of American Production , or just A/Cs of EADS ?

Well, the Luftwaffe looks to be buying a batch of Global Hawks. They may also be a P-8 customer (though they could just as easily buy the Airbus MRA.) There has also been on-again-off-again talks of them buying or leasing C-17s.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlinePelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2531 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 9222 times:

Quoting N328KF (Reply 4):
Well, the Luftwaffe looks to be buying a batch of Global Hawks.

To be precise they are buying Eurohawk(s) - one demonstrator and an option of another four - which are going to have EADS sensors on board.

pelican

[Edited 2008-01-30 10:00:50]

User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13208 posts, RR: 77
Reply 6, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9190 times:

Beyond Typhoon procurement, would the remaining German Tornados be replaced one for one by another aircraft type even?
Beyond Typhoon, for Germany, I see UCAVs.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14026 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 9033 times:



Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 2):
If the dollar to Euro exchange rate is good it might make good fiscal sense to buy US.

In the short time yes, but in the long run it is better to spend a bit more so that we don't loose our capability to manufacture high end military aircraft.

Jan


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7063 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 8942 times:



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter):
Hi guys !

Could it be Possible that the Luftwaffe orders A/Cs like the F22 ? Of American Production , or just A/Cs of EADS ?

They seem to be pretty reluctant to buy American aircraft, an European solution is prefered most of the time. They did that back with the Eurofighter athough the F-15 and F 18 were evaluated. The F-16 was never an option because of its single engine and after the F 104 accidents the Luftwaffe has had (don´t know if this is still valid) a twin engine only policy.
As the Eurofighter will likely be the only manned aircraft that the Luftwaffe will operate in the near future only Cargo and Helicopters as well as UAVs seem to be possible to join the Luftwaffe´s fleet of aircraft.
The JSF was once brought in as an option for the Navy Tornados as one requirement for the next Navy fighter was the ability to land on carrier decks from allies and EF would not be able to do that. Since the Navy has gotten rid of its jets this will also not happen but the EF will get air-to-sea weapons instead.
As a new cargo aircraft they went for the A400M and did not order the C17 or C130J. They also did not lease them as an interim solution but went for leased Antonovs instead. As they were looking into new VIP aircraft they choose the Bombardier over the Global Express.
Helicopters they were interested in the CH 53K but considerd it too small and are looking now for a new build design by Eurocopter or an advanced Mil 26.
So only UAVs will be based on US technology like the Euro/Global Hawk (Global Hawk is considered as RECCE Tornado replacement) and the Predator will likely be acquired as it was said a couple of time in the media.
Another option in a decade or so might be the P8 if the second hand P3 orions acquired a few years ago will get old.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4839 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8862 times:



Quoting Keesje (Reply 3):
Then again the large Tornado fleet needs to be replaced by (probably, likely) a twin engined, stealth, long range, 2 crew, air-ground attack aircraft, with long range, buddy refuelling capability and a of lot a sensors for typical regional crisis operations,

This seems to fit that description.....

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...3%20Super%20Hornet&channel=defense

Quote:
"To be available circa 2024, the sixth generation aircraft would feature a combat radius of more than 1,000 miles and stealth against a much wider spectrum of radars.

[.....]

For Boeing, the real discriminators are going to be extended range (1,000-1,500 miles), a small radar signature against low-frequency radars, expanded awareness through connections with the network, and the ability to carry a number of bombs internally."


Of course, this could be nothing more than a Boeing spin to get countries to buy an updated Super Bug.

For convenience, they may buy American surveillance platforms. Or they might go for variants of these.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_NATO_AGS_lg.jpg

Although developing one for their exclusive use might be cost prohibitive.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineRomeoKC10FE From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8853 times:



Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 1):
Typhoon is an outstanding fighter and there's really little need to buy the F-22.

They couldn't buy the F-22 if they wanted to, the Raptor is not for export sale to any nation period.


User currently offlineChecksixx From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1095 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 8829 times:



Quoting Columba (Reply 8):
As they were looking into new VIP aircraft they choose the Bombardier over the Global Express.

I think your confused. Bombardier is the manufacturer of the Global Express.


User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6485 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 8796 times:



Quoting Pelican (Reply 5):
To be precise they are buying Eurohawk(s) - one demonstrator and an option of another four - which are going to have EADS sensors on board.

It doesn't matter, it's a Global Hawk with European (not necessarily EADS) sensors.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineMCIGuy From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1936 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 8785 times:

Why not, we got some MiGs and SUs from them.  biggrin 


Airliners.net Moderator Team
User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 8740 times:



Quoting N328KF (Reply 12):
it's a Global Hawk with European (not necessarily EADS) sensors.

The Eurohawk is a joint venture between NorthropGrumman and EADS and will necessarily carry EADS sensors. EADS however may contract some sensors out to Thales, BAe, STN Atlas or some Italian company who have a much longer history of making sensors, but the final sensors will sponsored and approved by EADS.

From what could be read from reliable sources the reason for the joint venture here is not to keep the money in Europe as usual, but to make those sensors available in the first place. The sensors that Luftwaffe wants would probably never make it through US export restrictions just like a full-scale APG-77 would never make it to export for instance.

Apart from that I can't hear this Euro bullshit-designations anymore. What next? Euro-toilet paper? A couple of weeks ago I went to Prague by road to visit a friend and once I passed the Czech border there was a sign that read "Euro-Love". I knew there is French, Greek and Russian Love, but what is Euro-Love supposed to be? ... People are going over board with that Euro-bullshit. Why can't they just buy an empty B-model GlobalHawk, put their owner sensors on it and leave it by that?


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7063 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 8670 times:



Quoting Checksixx (Reply 11):
I think your confused. Bombardier is the manufacturer of the Global Express.

Sorry I meant the they chose Global Express over the Gulfstream.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineWvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 517 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 8667 times:

I personally dont see the FA-22 in europes future is too much of an aircraft that you dont need when you have the euor-fighter that other than stealth and air to ground can cover. If the F-35 should ever be developed then maybe a few would purchase it to go along with the euro-fighter at low numbers like the british, but I would have to agree that I see europe going to more of an un-manned aircraft as a mix.

User currently offlinePelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2531 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 8572 times:



Quoting N328KF (Reply 12):
It doesn't matter, it's a Global Hawk with European (not necessarily EADS) sensors.

Of course it matters - a significant part of the contract was given to a European (German) supplier. In the end the Eurohawk is not an American aircraft but an American-German joint venture.

pelican


User currently offlineChecksixx From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1095 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 8525 times:



Quoting Columba (Reply 15):
Quoting Checksixx (Reply 11):
I think your confused. Bombardier is the manufacturer of the Global Express.


Sorry I meant the they chose Global Express over the Gulfstream.

No worries...I only pointed that out so you'd correct yourself...I wanted to know what they chose. So...any reason they opted out of Gulfstream? I'm guessing the larger cabin (I think) on the Global....


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7063 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8457 times:



Quoting Checksixx (Reply 18):
No worries...I only pointed that out so you'd correct yourself...I wanted to know what they chose. So...any reason they opted out of Gulfstream? I'm guessing the larger cabin (I think) on the Global....

They currently have the Challenger that will be replaced by the Global so this might be an option also the maintenance will be done by Lufthansa Technik (which has a lot of experience with Bombardier) and Bombardier in Gemany so this might have influenced the decision.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 20, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8407 times:



Quoting Columba (Reply 8):
Another option in a decade or so might be the P8 if the second hand P3 orions acquired a few years ago will get old.

I doubt the P8 will be seriously considered, as Airbus is offering something based on the A320 family.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 8354 times:



Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 20):

I doubt the P8 will be seriously considered, as Airbus is offering something based on the A320 family.

As the German Navy has practically retreated from armed naval and anti-sub reconnaissance I doubt it will be either of the two, but an UAV. Something one category larger than the RQ-4B, probably. Currently on the P-3C weapon delivery is not trained anymore.


User currently offlineTedTAce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 8346 times:



Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 1):
Examples include the F-84F, RF-84F, F-4F

How can you forget the F-104?!?!


User currently offlinePADSpot From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 8326 times:



Quoting TedTAce (Reply 22):
How can you forget the F-104?!?!

Maybe because it was largely locally produced?

Today the only area where US technology still enjoys a large market share in German defense spendings are missile systems. Many of them (TOW, Harpoon, Stinger, SeaSparrow, AMRAAM and Sidewinder) will be replaced within the next 5-10 years, but PATRIOT/MEADS, GMRLS, SM-2ER, ESSM and RAM (if you count it as US technology) are there to stay. As Germany participated heavily in the development of those missile systems (except SM-2ER), it seems to be part of the political agenda to maintain close ties in this field (or just a prerequisite?).

Apart from that I don't see billion-dollar type-of sales opportunity for US def-tech in Germany in any area. However there are some smaller ones ...


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14026 posts, RR: 62
Reply 24, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 8325 times:



Quoting TedTAce (Reply 22):
Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 1):
Examples include the F-84F, RF-84F, F-4F

How can you forget the F-104?!?!

And the F-86

Jan


25 PADSpot : I think we had the Canadair version ...
26 TedTAce : Fair enough, but I consider that semantic.
27 Columba : Are there any news regarding the possible acquisition of H-92 Superhawks for the German Navy and as a possible CSAR platform ? Also with the further d
28 Arrow : Yes you did. Much hotter than the original thanks to that Orenda engine.
29 KC135TopBoom : They also flew the B-707-320B/Cs for a lot of years (decades). I believe some of the B-707s were orginally LH B-707-320Bs.
30 Columba : They are still flying - for NATO - as Trainers and Cargo aircraft.
31 Olle : Considering the JSF and Norway conversation, can we be sure that Eurofighter is really Nato standard Second reading the the conversation about Europea
32 PADSpot : The only official information I read is that the MH-90 was shifted to 2014 in the "Armed Forces Plan 2009". I would be a fan of an German H-92 ... it
33 SkyyKat : Canadian, thank you. That is what I was thinkng too.
34 Columba : I think so, too, but I really believe that they will stick to the MH 90 instead. I have high hopes for the CH 53K as I think it would be a logical de
35 TheSonntag : The time for the Luftwaffe ordering huge amounts of airplanes is over, at least for the next 20 to 30 years, with the exception of more airlift capabi
36 WAH64D : A pointless statement. F-22 brings nothing to the party for the Luftwaffe.
37 Columba : Right now the only US airplane on order is the Global Hawk and the Luftwaffe is also looking at the Predator UAV. As for fix winged aircraft I always
38 Post contains links DEVILFISH : They're moving away from manned platforms for the AGS. Odds of them adapting A32Xs for MPA are getting slim..... http://www.flightglobal.com/articles
39 RomeoKC10FE : Uhhhhh...if you'd take the time to read the FIRST post you will see that is what this thread was started about.
40 Olle : Most projects that is very hightech gets overruns in time and budgets... The US projects is examples of this and also in civillian projects we have se
41 PADSpot : The more delays the A400M is accumulating, the higher the chances become. Especially given the more and more solidifying fact that the first producti
42 MD11Engineer : What about the Ukrainian AN-70? AFAIK, the performance is very similar to the A400M, it has been designed to accept western technology (avionics, engi
43 Columba : Reminds me on the A340 engine issue.
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