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Algeria To Return Russian MiGs Over Quality Issues  
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 11834 times:

AFP is reporting:
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hIQjjBwMOMkpS4PVZvI1T2OqPfHQ

Quote:
MOSCOW (AFP) — Algeria wants to return 15 fighter jets it bought from Russia because of their poor quality, the Kommersant daily reported on Monday, citing an official from Russia's state United Aerospace Corporation.

The official said Russia was proposing to take back the MiG-29 jets, which were delivered to Algeria in 2006 and 2007, but only if Algeria bought more modern and expensive planes such as the MiG-29M2 or the MiG-35.




"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12128 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 11835 times:



Quoting Lumberton (Thread starter):
The official said Russia was proposing to take back the MiG-29 jets, which were delivered to Algeria in 2006 and 2007, but only if Algeria bought more modern and expensive planes such as the MiG-29M2 or the MiG-35.

Russia to Algeria: We'll take back those lemons as a trade in on these newer lemons.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

How long does Putin think the rest of the world is going to take his s#@^?  stirthepot 


User currently offlineBladeLWS From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 403 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 11835 times:

If Russia won't take them back without a trade I'd say park the MiG's on Red Square...  Wink

User currently offlineFridgmus From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1442 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 11759 times:
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Low quality MiGs? Perish the thought!

Seriously, I knew Russian products were low on quality, but I've never heard of MiG's being returned. How big a problem is this?

Thanks

F



The Lockheed Super Constellation, the REAL Queen of the Skies!
User currently offlineGlideslope From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1603 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 11652 times:



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
How long does Putin think the rest of the world is going to take his s#@^?   

Unfortunately, that is a very concerning issue for many these days.



To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4775 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 11626 times:

Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 3):
but I've never heard of MiG's being returned. How big a problem is this?

As big as Algeria not having properly working replacements unless they acquiesce to Moscow's demands - in much the same way the Indians are having a hard time getting their carrier delivered on time and up to specs without coughing up additional funds (ditto with the Il-38s). Typical hardballing and arm-twisting - sell low but under-deliver. It was mentioned in this thread that the delivery was suspended.....

Algerian Air Force (by Saintsman Sep 6 2007 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)

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Photo © Max Bryansky - Russian AviaPhoto Team



I wonder if Algeria accepted delivery of their Su-30MKAs due late last year, and if they would have similar issues with those?.....

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Photo © Fyodor Borisov - Russian AviaPhoto Team


http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-to-russian-air-force-in-2007.html

Quote:
"He says that deliveries to India and Malaysia have been proceeding as scheduled, and Algeria is to receive its first Su-30MKA later this year."

Related thread here.....

And The Latest Member To The Flanker Camp Is.... (by MD90fan Nov 6 2007 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)

It appears Morocco made the sounder decision by ordering new Block 50 F-16C/Ds.

[Edited 2008-02-18 13:03:07]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 6, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 11562 times:



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 5):
t appears Morocco made the sounder decision by ordering new Block 50 F-16C/Ds.

 checkmark  A point that could point Algeria towards French or American aircraft.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 11551 times:

Here are some more media reports.

Here's a Russian version.
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080218/99490063.html

Quote:
In October 2007, Algeria stopped payments on other military contracts pending the return of the MiGs.
Experts suggest Algeria may have opted instead for French Rafale fighters as France builds up its presence in the North African state.
"The Russian [cooperation agreement] breakthrough in Algeria in 2006 provoked a strong backlash in France, especially following the election of President Sarkozy," said Konstantin Makiyenko, of the Center for Strategic and Technological Analysis.

From the Algerian media...it's about "maintenance":
http://www.elkhabar.com/quotidienFrE...hp?idc=129&ida=97973&key=1&cahed=1

Quote:
A wide debate has been raised yesterday among milieus following the visit President Bouteflika is paying to Moscow, on MIG aircrafts Algerian Defence Ministry decided to turn back to weapons firm in Russia.
In this context, some Russian media sources said the aircrafts have technical faults, while other sources like Komersant daily online denied that fact saying in turn that Algerian military experts “don’t seem having any doubt on the Russian weapon technologies, they have only requested to adapt the 15 MIG 29 aircrafts as to fit Algerian characteristics.”

Another Russian media report.
http://www.kommersant.com/p854040/military_hardware_foreign_relations/

Quote:
Russia long insisted that the claims were ungrounded. “The bodies of the planes were produced in the 1990s, but that was stipulated in the contract, and everything inside them, all the equipment, was new,” a source at MiG said, adding that Rosoboronexport representatives demanded an explanation that could serve as the basis for breaking the contract. “Algerian representatives wrote a receipt in Russia and in Algeria, then they began using those MiGs and only after that they made their claims,” a corporation spokesman said.

Experts connect the claims with the situation inside Algeria and France's attempts to advance its Rafale fighter jet in the region. Deliveries of the MiG-29 were become an issue in domestics politics as well. Bouteflika intends to seek a third term. A competing clan is represented in the security forces of that country. They are using the crisis of the Russian planes to weaken the position of Ahmed Gaid Salah, who is loyal to the president. In addition, Center for the Analysis of Strategy and Technology expert Konstantin Makienko notes, “The Russian breakthrough in Algeria in 2006 was accompanied by powerful opposition by France, especially after President Sarkozy came to power.”




"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 11480 times:



Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 3):
Seriously, I knew Russian products were low on quality, but I've never heard of MiG's being returned. How big a problem is this?

Sukhoi engineers who have visited the Chinese facilities where they are licenese building Su-27/30 series variants for the Chinese Air Force have admitted that the Chinese builds were being built with better craftsmanship than the ones coming out of Russia. If your'e a Russian worker where's your motivation to do anymore than you have to?


User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4775 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 11412 times:



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 8):

Sukhoi engineers who have visited the Chinese facilities where they are licenese building Su-27/30 series variants for the Chinese Air Force have admitted that the Chinese builds were being built with better craftsmanship than the ones coming out of Russia.

Perhaps Algeria would be better off buying Chinese J-10s and JF-17s?  Wink However, both use Russian engines and Moscow might block their re-export as has happened with Pakistan (but subsequently allowed).



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7436 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 11335 times:

If the customer buys your goods and they match the spec, then what have they got to beef about?

AFAIK we have only the customers word about the quality of the product, (hardly an impartial opinion).


User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4775 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (6 years 5 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 11077 times:



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 10):
AFAIK we have only the customers word about the quality of the product, (hardly an impartial opinion).

True, however, there are also the media reports in Reply 7 which don't exactly exemplify disinterested views.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 10779 times:

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3392605&c=FEA&s=CVS

Quote:
Algeria's effort to send back 15 MiG-29 fighter jets might scuttle the rest of an $8 billion arms deal clinched in 2006, Russia's biggest export package since the Soviet Union collapsed. Yet the weapons contracts may not be the
Observers say the arms deal, which included the forgiveness of $4.7 billion in Soviet-era debt, was part of Moscow's effort to open Algeria's vast natural-gas reserves to Russian companies. If the arms deal sours, they say, so might the prospect of a natural-gas cartel.
Yet if Russia takes back the jets, as the defense minister has hinted it would, it might set a troubling precedent for the country's defense industry. India, for example, might try to return the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier, whose price tag - including an overhaul and upgrade - has jumped from $1.5 billion to $2.7 billion, said Alexander Khamchikhin, an analyst with the Institute for Political and Military Analysis, a think tank here.




"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4775 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 10725 times:



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 12):
India, for example, might try to return the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier, whose price tag - including an overhaul and upgrade - has jumped from $1.5 billion to $2.7 billion, said Alexander Khamchikhin,

This is funny, as India does not have possession of the carrier. Russia, OTOH, already got part of the money.


http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...es/AIR_Yak-130_Armed_Runway_lg.jpg

Unfortunately, DID requires payment to access their explanation of the Algerian situation.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...billion-gas-market-leverage-02024/

Quote:
"DID has found reports that seems closer to the mark based on the package's value, however, and the structure of the deal itself and Algeria's past pattern of arms acquisitions are highly consequential and so worth discussing.

So, too, are recent developments, as Algeria's complaints over weapon quality are causing something almost unheard-of in the global arms market: a refund request. The rumors are flying. What's going on? Could a large chunk of Russia's arms order book be in jeopardy? What's really behind it? And how does this tie in to larger industrial issues for Russia's arms industry, as shown in contracts like the Gorshkov carrier refit? DID explains..."



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineConfuscius From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 3829 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (6 years 4 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 10692 times:



Quoting Lumberton (Thread starter):
The official said Russia was proposing to take back the MiG-29 jets, which were delivered to Algeria in 2006 and 2007,

Algeria should have purchased an extended service warranty on top of the standard 12 mo/60,000 mi warranty.



Ain't I a stinker?
User currently offlineWvsuperhornet From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 516 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 10467 times:

Gee What shocking news this is. I feel sorry for Algeria I hope they can get at least some of their money back.

User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4775 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (6 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9620 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
Quoting Lumberton (Thread starter):
The official said Russia was proposing to take back the MiG-29 jets, which were delivered to Algeria in 2006 and 2007, but only if Algeria bought more modern and expensive planes such as the MiG-29M2 or the MiG-35.

Russia to Algeria: We'll take back those lemons as a trade in on these newer lemons.

It seems the Russians are getting their way, and making a killing on even more expensive Su-30 MKAs.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...al-batch-of-su-30mka-fighters.html

Quote:
"Algeria has filed a request with Russia's Rosoboronexport arms agency for a further batch of 14-16 Sukhoi Su-30MKA multirole fighters, while also demanding that Moscow compensate it for an initial $250 million payment linked to its cancelled $1.3 billion deal for 36 RSK MiG-29s."

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 15):
I feel sorry for Algeria I hope they can get at least some of their money back.

It's possible they wouldn't see that money back, as it would most likely go towards progress payments for the Su-30MKAs still being delivered, or an advance for the 14-16 additional frames ordered. At least there's a good chance of them getting their money's worth on those.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...lgeria-returns-faulty-mig-29s.html

The more intriguing matters are the $4.7B debt condonation and access to natural gas reserves quoted in Reply 12.

Incidentally, they're getting a new AF1.....

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At least the French didn't go home empty handed.

[Edited 2008-05-26 07:36:12]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (6 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9602 times:



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 10):
If the customer buys your goods and they match the spec, then what have they got to beef about?

AFAIK we have only the customers word about the quality of the product, (hardly an impartial opinion).

Like the the Nimrods.


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 7933 times:

Russian air force will take the rejected MiGs.
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3903304&c=EUR&s=AIR

Quote:
MOSCOW - The Russian Air Force will procure 34 MiG-29 fighter jets that were rejected last year by Algeria, which claimed the aircraft were assembled from used spare parts, Russian officials said.




"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
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