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B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam  
User currently offlineA340Spotter From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1981 posts, RR: 23
Posted (6 years 7 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9414 times:

Article below from local news..

http://www.kuam.com/news/26596.aspx

JSD


"Irregardless, it's a Cat III airplane, we don't need an alternate!"
102 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAreopagus From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1369 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (6 years 7 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9414 times:

That's as bad as losing a ship, except for the number of lives at stake.

User currently offlineConnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (6 years 7 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9347 times:

It's great news to pilots are (apparently) OK.

Not to mock the situation, but I've often wondered what it would be like to have to go to the CO's office
after having 'bent' a $1.2B a/c .  Wow!

It also has to be said we have absolutely no idea what caused this.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineVenus6971 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1443 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 7 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 9267 times:

That was always the knock on a acft so expensive, with the upcoming accident investigation board I bet the air and mx crew will wish they could have died along with the acft with anal probing they are about to get.


I would help you but it is not in the contract
User currently offlineCO777ER From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 691 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 7 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 9168 times:

I bet the crew was reluctant to pull the "Oh Shit" handles under their seats and getting ejected out of that thing.

User currently offlineCpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 38
Reply 5, posted (6 years 7 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 9047 times:



Quoting CO777ER (Reply 4):
I bet the crew was reluctant to pull the "Oh Shit" handles under their seats and getting ejected out of that thing.

I can imagine - they will get a grilling they'll never forget. We can only hope for their sake it was an aircraft fault.


User currently offlineJawed From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 482 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 7 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8957 times:

Remember that WE are the ones paying for this aircraft (and all their other aircraft for that matter). Our good old tax dollars at work.

User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12150 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (6 years 7 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8905 times:

I believe this is the first loss of a B-2. It is also the first loss of a 509th BW airplane since an FB-111A crash in Portsmouth, NH in 1978, 30 years ago.

User currently offlineFlagshipAZ From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3419 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (6 years 7 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8818 times:



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 7):
believe this is the first loss of a B-2

You believed correctly. Of the 21 B-2s built, this is the first loss, and hopefully the last.
At a billion bucks a bomber, us taxpayers can't afford to lose more.
Anyone here have a serial number on the downed bird yet?
Regards.



"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
User currently offlineSASD209 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Oct 2007, 642 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 7 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8811 times:



Quoting Jawed (Reply 6):
Remember that WE are the ones paying for this aircraft (and all their other aircraft for that matter). Our good old tax dollars at work.

Yes the economic cost is a bit much. I think some may be missing the point here: 2 pilots ejecting safely = priceless.

We can build more bombers; I'm glad the crew is safe.

SASD209


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8544 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (6 years 7 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8783 times:

On behalf of the American people I say "glad you are alive, pilots."

On behalf of the American taxpayers I am saying "Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh God. Nooooooooooo."


User currently offlineNicholaschee From Australia, joined Oct 2005, 661 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 7 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8727 times:

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g...pLqX99V5mO6nPrBSI2xCKYGLgD8UVPOEG3

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7260231.stm


User currently offlineA350 From Germany, joined Nov 2004, 1100 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (6 years 7 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 8365 times:



Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 2):
... after having 'bent' a $1.2B a/c

I always wonder what this sum actually means: does the production of one B-2 cost 1.2 B $, or is the overall cost of the program 21 x 1.2 Billion $?

A350



Photography - the art of observing, not the art of arranging
User currently offlineBlackProjects From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2007, 756 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (6 years 7 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 8356 times:

Its $1.2 Billion for Each machine so its a heavy duty loss to the US.

User currently offlineGalaxy5007 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 626 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 7 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 8350 times:

1.2 Billion PER aircraft....

User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 7 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 8356 times:

4 B2s where suppose to take off according to Swedish media, first made it, second crashed on take-off, one pilot still in
hospital for his injuries and one has been released.
Pic from the crash here, http://gfx.aftonbladet.se/multimedia...49/stealth-kollage-kra_549657w.jpg


User currently offlineVenus6971 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1443 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 7 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 8350 times:

This is worse than losing an E-3 or RC-135 due to the cost of the acft, thank God that the egress boys did there job well with to live crew members to find out what happened, this is like losing a Aircraft Carrier. I bet everybody involved with this program is sick to their stomach, I been retired since 2003 and I am sick to my stomach..


I would help you but it is not in the contract
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 7 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 8334 times:

This link claim total cost of programme, 44 billion US$ (1997), http://www.fas.org/man/gao/nsiad97181.htm
So basically 2,2 billion US$ each.


User currently offlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3596 posts, RR: 29
Reply 18, posted (6 years 7 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 8290 times:

It is an airplane. Planes can crash, thats life. Aren't mishap rates calculated into military plane programmes? Probably it was planned to lose less than 1 plane, but this can happen. Most important thing is that the crew has survived.

User currently offlineAerosol From Germany, joined Oct 2000, 558 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 7 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 8286 times:



Quoting Jawed (Reply 6):
Remember that WE are the ones paying for this aircraft (and all their other aircraft for that matter). Our good old tax dollars at work.

I remember the quote that the b2 is more worth than its own weight in Gold!


User currently offlineConnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (6 years 7 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 8257 times:



Quoting A350 (Reply 12):

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 2):
... after having 'bent' a $1.2B a/c

I always wonder what this sum actually means: does the production of one B-2 cost 1.2 B $, or is the overall cost of the program 21 x 1.2 Billion $?

A350

I think that's the 'fly away' cost of each a/c as it comes off the line. The R&D cost is not included in this number.

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 17):
This link claim total cost of programme, 44 billion US$ (1997), http://www.fas.org/man/gao/nsiad97181.htm
So basically 2,2 billion US$ each.

Tend to agree more or less with above, I know the US sank an _enormous_ amount of money in upfront R&D to develop both the material for the a/c and the continuously-varying surface design to make it nearly (but not totally) stealthy -- at least as far as ground-based current technology radars are concerned. I can't think of how many design iterations there must have been.

So maybe $20B for R&D, somewhat more than $20B for production.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineZANL188 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 3525 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 7 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 8234 times:
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Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 18):
Aren't mishap rates calculated into military plane programmes? Probably it was planned to lose less than 1 plane, but this can happen.

Attrition is generally factored into military aircraft buys & requirements studies, but given the cost of the B-2 program I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't accounted for in this case.



Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
User currently offlineDragon6172 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1203 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 7 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8156 times:



Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 21):
Attrition is generally factored into military aircraft buys & requirements studies, but given the cost of the B-2 program I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't accounted for in this case.

Original procurement was for 135 airframes, then reduced to 75, and finally to 20 by 1992. They decided to refurbish the test aircraft to make a total of 21... so I suppose that would be the attrition aircraft! Obviously with the larger numbers its easier to see how attrition rates can be factored, but with just 20 aircraft...basically you are hoping you dont lose any.



Phrogs Phorever
User currently offlineACW367 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2007, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 7 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8098 times:

Taking cost aside, simple arithmetic - 1 hull loss from 135 planes is 0.70%. I hull loss from 21 frames is 4.75%. Therefore in a world where military airfleets are capability lead. Losing 4.75% of your military capability is a hard hit.

User currently offlineZANL188 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 3525 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 7 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8091 times:
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Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 22):
Original procurement was for 135 airframes, then reduced to 75, and finally to 20 by 1992. They decided to refurbish the test aircraft to make a total of 21... so I suppose that would be the attrition aircraft! Obviously with the larger numbers its easier to see how attrition rates can be factored, but with just 20 aircraft...basically you are hoping you dont lose any.

Concur.

Also with most aircraft development programs the manufacturer really doesn't figure out how to build the aircraft until they get a couple of dozen, or more, aircraft out the door (A380, 787, Shuttle, C-5, & C-17 come to mind). With such a small production run to say that each B-2 costs $1.2B is probably a real WAG regardless of who says it. $1.2B isn't a replacement cost because there is no production line for replacements( and if there were the price would need to account for inflation), and it isn't a flyaway cost because each one of the 21 was handbuilt to different block or production specs.



Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
25 TaromA380 : What if there will be other losses, in time ? (I hope not) Could the production line be restarted ?
26 ZANL188 : Probably, but the costs would surely far out strip the $1.2B quoted. The lost B-2 is literally priceless....
27 Jgarrido : There were 2 flights of 2 scheduled to take off yesterday. The lead of the first flight took off fine, it was his wingman who crashed. They closed th
28 Oroka : It doubt it would cost 1.2b to restart the line. The B-2 was state of the art in the 80s, the cost of RAM and other associated materials have undoubt
29 DEVILFISH : Equally intriguing would be the CO's predicament when he faces his superiors. I wonder what the CO would wish for. Would a senior officer's grilling
30 ThePalauan : It's a relief to know the pilots are still alive. I went to Andersen about a good three hours after the incident (I didn't even know it had occured) a
31 ZANL188 : To restart it and build one replacement B-2? You must be joking....
32 Zeke : I think the total program cost was about that, the aircraft were about 1/3 of that.
33 TheSonntag : It was used in the Kosovo Campaign in 1999, and proved to be rather useful there bombing strategic targets. However, it still remains questionable wh
34 ZANL188 : Premiums would be outrageous. US Gov't is self insured.
35 Checksixx : R&D costs are never factored in when talking about aircraft cost. This was a tactic brought into play by F-22 opponents. The thing to concentrate on h
36 Aileron11 : I wonder if they will ground the fleet until they find out what happened? Think about, they had 21 now 20, because they only had 21 they need to make
37 Spacepope : The "actual" cost to build each aircraft was closer to $400 million, which compared to the F-22 isn't that bad of a deal. All tooling is still around
38 ZANL188 : Depends on what caused the accident... If say it was a birdstrike they'll probably clear the aircraft quickly and resume operations. Crew was able to
39 Post contains images USAF336TFS : This is a real heart breaker, for those of us who are fascinated with the B-2 and it's technologies. At anywhere from $400M to $1.2B per copy, dependi
40 Curt22 : Actually...would be less expensive to lose the crew and preserve the aircraft at a billion dollars per copy!
41 Checksixx : Lets not get carried away with cost. Factually, the listed airframe cost the Air Force provides is almost right on at just over $1.1 Billion flyaway.
42 L-188 : You must be a Diffenbaker admirer. This is the same thinking that killed the CF-105 Arrow and replaced it with that turd, the BOMARC missile! You kno
43 RacingGreen07 : Ok so who picks up the tab? Tax paying americans? Or an Insurance company? Or someone else? Regards!
44 USAF336TFS : It'll be the U.S. taxpayer.
45 CURLYHEADBOY : Oh, lord! This has to be the most expensive single-aircraft crash ever! I have to say I wondered a few times about what would be like if one of those
46 PlaneWasted : If the plane was worth 1.2B$ it's an equivalent of about four brand new A380! Expensive crash indeed.
47 Post contains images USAF336TFS : That's gotta be the first time I've ever seen the B-2 and the A380 mentioned in the same sentence!
48 DL021 : Thank God the crew ejected and is alive. It's a terrible shame to lose the airframe, and it does reduce our capability in that department by more than
49 Garnetpalmetto : Any word at all as to which particular B-2 crashed?
50 Checksixx : No...21 built...1 for test...20 operational.....they now have 19 left.
51 Sh0rtybr0wn : B-2 Bombers are indeed expensive, and we hate to see one lost. Just to try to put it in perspective; keep in mind the Iraq war costs 2 billion per wee
52 Flighty : Yes. At least that we know of. And if you don't count Columbia or Challenger. That is what I heard too. Of course the supply chain is a little stale.
53 Ptrjong : That only serves to demonstrate how expensive the Iraq war is. President Eisenhower once pointed out that The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this
54 Spacepope : AFAIK, the test airframe (not the "Iron Bird, now on display at WPAFB) was reworked into an operationa aircraft.
55 MCIGuy : AV-12 "Spirit Of Kansas".
56 JakeOrion : I'm very sure the pilots did everything they could to bring the bird home, but whatever caused this accident was unrecoverable, so the pilots had to (
57 ClipperHawaii : The Spirit of Kansas Tail No. 890127 was the aricraft involved.
58 Post contains links and images ANCFlyer : Or how many we could build if we quit giving Billions away to Russia, Egypt, Israel . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Any news yet on a probable cause?
59 Lexer : It's a fascinating plane but these numbers bring home just how obscene the investment in this weaponry really is, and it does not even mention its eq
60 Connies4ever : The Arrow was killed by the military itself, not Diefenbaker. He however had the dubious privilege of having to announce it.
61 Curt22 : And how many hungry people could the "Bishop of Rome" feed if he sold off 10% of the billions in artwork hanging around Vatican City?
62 Post contains links ULMFlyer : True, but if you disconsider the "single-aircraft" aspect, the loss of the XB-70 was more expensive. At a cost in 1961 of $700 million per prototype
63 Post contains images EBJ1248650 : I read it. I just don't believe I read it!
64 Post contains links USAF336TFS : Quoting Lexer (Reply 60): it does not even mention its equivalence in feeding hungry people. Fact of the matter is that the U.S. government as well as
65 Sprout5199 : A waste of money? When it was designed/built it it was a "game changer". The F-117 was just the start. The B-2 was the next step. The F-22 was the th
66 AirRyan : Exactly what you get when you elect a socialist commander in chief with absolutely no idea of how to run the military or the nation's defense for tha
67 Post contains links and images MCIGuy : Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 66): Besides, I don't think the penetration role is necessarily obsolete. Last time I checked, there are still a couple of c
68 Sprout5199 : I try to do that every Friday and Saturday night. But alas it seems to be obsolete. Something about a UVV(Unmanned Vaginal Vehicle). Damn technology.
69 ZBBYLW : What cost are we talking, has it not already been paid off? As far as I am concerned they are not out of pocket 1.2b but they just lost a 1.2 b piece
70 FWA2500 : that definatly had me laughing.......it gets worse when they start naming thier UVV's, lol back on topic, are there any photos around of the wreckage
71 Jgarrido : Whatever happened, happen as the plane was rolling down the runway/taking off, I don't think they had much time to do anything other then save their
72 Venus6971 : not having seen any wreckage photo's I will speculate that the acft is still fairly intact, being full of JP-8 probably saved it from a huge fireball
73 Connies4ever : Only the most popular POTUS in recent memory, including RR. Popular among the people that count, the voters. had he been permitted to run for a 3rd t
74 Alessandro : Don´t rule out wake turbulens, this was the 2nd of 4 B-2s that where taking off. Cost of the aircraft can be discussed to end of the world, I tend t
75 Lexer : You assume I support the vatican or something? I don't. And how would that justify out of control defense spending, given the opportunity costs? Beli
76 Post contains links Dragon6172 : I am a little confused about who you are calling a socialist commander? Clinton? Now I am not one to take ol Slick Willies side, but it was the senio
77 Connies4ever : That's SOP for the Buff. No stable pivot point on which to rotate the a/c on t/o. So they just fly it off the runway. Helps to have that honkin' big
78 USAF336TFS : It's not what I "wanna" believe or not. This is a Military aircraft discussion forum, not a butter versus bullet debate. Those are factual numbers. M
79 N1641 : what? 78 posts and I could only find 2 speculating on how it crashed? this isnt how we do it on airliners.net my guess is the vstab broke off
80 Spacepope : And quickly point out that Clinton didn't enter office till 1993... Well after then Defense Secretary Cheney had already killed off the F-14D, A-12,
81 ZANL188 : yeah... design defect. vstab broke off on all B-2s before leaving the factory...
82 AirRyan : And Dick Cheney prematurely axed the F-14D program (not to mention the V-22 which actually quite frankly was a wise decision that unfortunately an in
83 Checksixx : You'd have to be blind not to see it burning on the video... A really bad guess...
84 Connies4ever : It may well be true that Clinton (or Clintons) have never been a friend of the US military, in the sense that they didn't give them every toy they wi
85 Dragon6172 : Like I said, was just helping ya put the blame in the correct place. I spent about 5 years of my time under Willy, I know a bit of the BS that came f
86 Flighty : What do you mean? The defense contractors are doing fine. They are happy that the USG keeps buying new systems.... that's all that matters to them. W
87 Post contains images DEVILFISH : To seduce their women? I agree it would be tricky as hell. (Sorry, couldn't resist.)
88 DL767captain : Maybe they thought 20 was a better number than 21... Hopefully this isn't something that will ground the fleet like the F-15 incident
89 Post contains links Jgarrido : There was some smoke but it was relatively light in color and didn't last long at all. As I said this plane was going back to Whiteman non-stop and w
90 Post contains images DEVILFISH : That's a huge amount to write-off.....
91 Mark5388916 : Are there any post crash images yet? Mark
92 Wvsuperhornet : I am more concerned about the pilots. Yes a B-2 is expensive and will be hard to replace, it can be!!! the pilots cant gald they got out ok. Maybe it
93 Sinlock : If the crash had happened at Whiteman it could be posable if the aircraft was/is salvageable, but I don't see how the aircraft could be repaired of s
94 Lumberton : Remember the B-1B that landed with the nosegear up on Diego Garcia? They fixed that one on island.
95 TheSonntag : I would not be so sure about that, mind how many submarines Germany had, and some of them could still sink an aircraft carrier. Getting there would c
96 Sprout5199 : Impossible you mean. The ASW we have now is like sending a Bf-109 against a F-15 with AWACS support. Naa, thats what a Seawolf sub is for. Dan in Jup
97 SEPilot : That's pretty hard to justify considering he never won a majority of the popular vote.
98 Dragon6172 : I believe he is talking about Clinton. Who won the popular vote in both of his elections.
99 Post contains images TheSonntag : Extremely unlikely, yes. But I would never say impossible. Probably the most effective way would be some Greenpeace boats with MG42s, though, as we u
100 Dw747400 : He won largest portion of the popular vote, but he never won 50% of the vote... I think that is what SEPilot means.
101 Sprout5199 : Take them out with the optical sighted CIWS(hell just give some sailors a few M-60's and MA DUCES)---even if the Greenpeace boats didn't have any wea
102 Srbmod : There are far too many off-topic postings in this thread to be able to clean up without potentially removing the on-topic stuff. If you want to talk p
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