Halls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 13 hours ago) and read 13352 times:
Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 1): I guess it will depend on the result - I reckon that if EADS/NG wins all hell will break loose on here
LOL, I think that no matter who wins, there will be an outcry from the losing side here on Anet.
The only Pentagon briefing on today's schedule is an untitled press brief by the Director for Ops, J-3. I doubt he'd be releasing the results of the competition.
AGM100 From United States, joined Dec 2003, 3693 posts, RR: 8 Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 11 hours ago) and read 13184 times:
FYI , I know of a major after market material supplier who started purchasing lots of 767 equipment last year. They have purchased (several) 767-2 to part out. I was told that they are expecting to supply material to the USAF. They are currently a supplier on other USAF projects.
Now this is not official of course, but follow the money. I am betting on Boeing , and I am putting my money in their stock since it is so low right now. Personally I like the KC-30 as well, but the 767 is a proven tough reliable aircraft so it is a toss up.
LAXintl From United States, joined May 2000, 12089 posts, RR: 22 Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 8 hours ago) and read 12975 times:
I would not be surprised if the news was announced after the close of the stock market, or possibly even very early the morning as this clearly could have effects on the market and its best done during non trading hours.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
Quote: WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Top Pentagon officials ended a meeting on the U.S. Air Force's plan to buy 179 new refueling aircraft late on Monday afternoon, with defense officials saying an announcement of the winner was unlikely before Tuesday.
...
"It's over," said one defense official, who asked not to be named, when asked about the Defense Acquisition Board meeting convened on Monday to review the tanker program.
A second defense official confirmed the meeting was over, and said a news conference was unlikely on Monday, given the need to notify key lawmakers and the companies before any public announcement.
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
MOBflyer From United States, joined Sep 2007, 1209 posts, RR: 5 Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 4 hours ago) and read 12665 times:
Quoting Zeke (Reply 9): Should be made public within the next 24-48 hrs, and as suggested above, I think it will be after the stock market closed for the day.
So, tomorrow evening perhaps? Maybe early tomorrow morning?
USAF336TFS From United States, joined Apr 2005, 1202 posts, RR: 54 Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 2 hours ago) and read 12552 times:
Quoting Blackbird1331 (Reply 8): If Boeing wins, what will the Boeing paint scheme look like? Anyone have a graphic?
These are the best I've found. Off Boeing's website. Like you, I wish there were better ones, but I'm sure once the KC-767 is officially renamed the KC-45, there wiill be more.
[Edited 2008-02-25 19:35:33]
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
KC135TopBoom From United States, joined Jan 2005, 7515 posts, RR: 51 Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 12372 times:
Says that there has been a delay and that we might have to wait until Thursday to find out that Northrop, EADS, Airbus, and Mobile have won!
Did anyone notice the WKRG story now says 1500 new jobs from NG at MOB? That is a new number, I always thought it was 1000 new jobs there.
Quoting Zeke (Reply 9): The Defense Acquisition Board meeting has concluded, the decision has been made.
Should be made public within the next 24-48 hrs, and as suggested above, I think it will be after the stock market closed for the day.
Quoting Cruiser (Reply 7): a news conference was unlikely on Monday, given the need to notify key lawmakers and the companies before any public announcement.
Zeke, I think you will agree with me that if the winning bid is leaked before the Official Public Announcement, this is where that leak will come from. Now will it be the Washington State Congressional deligation, or the Alabama State Congressional deligation?
Quoting Blackbird1331 (Reply 8): If Boeing wins, what will the Boeing paint scheme look like? Anyone have a graphic?
It will be the same paint livery on either the KC-767 or KC-30. The paint will be specified in the contract. My guess is it will be the same as currently on the KC-10 and KC-135.
Zeke From Hong Kong SAR, PRC, joined Dec 2006, 4744 posts, RR: 65 Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 12306 times:
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 13):
Did anyone notice the WKRG story now says 1500 new jobs from NG at MOB? That is a new number, I always thought it was 1000 new jobs there.
That is what happens when you plan to double the number produced by building the A332F as well. It has been publicly linked to the KC-30.
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 13): Zeke, I think you will agree with me that if the winning bid is leaked before the Official Public Announcement, this is where that leak will come from. Now will it be the Washington State Congressional deligation, or the Alabama State Congressional deligation?
I would think more likely the USAF, I think they have not been able to keep anything confidential about the KC-X.
Cathay Pacific wins Airline of the Year 2009 Award. Great service. Great people. Great fares.
MCIGuy From United States, joined Mar 2006, 1779 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 12217 times:
Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 1): I guess it will depend on the result - I reckon that if EADS/NG wins all hell will break loose on here
I know I'll personally be on the phone and email to every lawmaker I can think of, again. Nothing against EADS or the A-330 in general, I just think it's wise from an overall strategic standpoint to keep such large programs in the US.
Lumberton From United States, joined Jul 2005, 4094 posts, RR: 24 Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 12107 times:
Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 15): know I'll personally be on the phone and email to every lawmaker I can think of, again. Nothing against EADS or the A-330 in general, I just think it's wise from an overall strategic standpoint to keep such large programs in the US. Smile
I've noted before that I would not put it past the USAF to select the KC-30, just that it would be the most politically inept thing they've done since losing the nukes over Spain. With all the funding battles they've got going, this would surely poison the relationship with Congress. Keep in minds that with the Republicans retiring at record rates from the House, it can only get better for the Democrats in the next election. The next administration is going to submit the "real" defense budget anyway. At the end of the day, they might want the KC-30, but I don't think they'll get it funded; they'll just manage to infuriate most of the lawmakers who appropriate their funding. If they do this, this is a fight that the USAF won't win.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
USAF336TFS From United States, joined Apr 2005, 1202 posts, RR: 54 Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 12067 times:
And as you've said repeatedly, the differences (What makes one "better" then the other) are so subjective, it's not worth the fight. Funny you mention Republicans. Boeing has some very high powered GOP politicians in it's camp as well. Even the presumed GOP candidate for President won't take sides on this one, if he's as smart as I think he is.
Let's be clear. McCain was never against the KC-767 per se. He questioned the wisdom of leasing the aircraft, as many of us did.
Call me naive, but I think the Air Force will pick the airplane they want. In this case, the airplane they want and the airplane that poses the least political risk happen to be the same.
[Edited 2008-02-26 06:41:56]
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
Scbriml From United Kingdom (England), joined Jul 2003, 8907 posts, RR: 50 Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 11715 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Reuters reporting decision may not be announced today:
Quote: Air Force officials had hoped to announce the news as early as Monday after the Pentagon meeting, but even a Tuesday announcement now appeared unlikely.
Highlander0 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2007, 129 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 11519 times:
Hmm, I do hope that it is announced soon so we can get the A vs B, US vs Eur shite out of the way and move on.
I hope the USAF choose the best aircraft for their needs and not what they're coerced/leaned on into buying. It'll be interesting to find out the winner.
Scbriml From United Kingdom (England), joined Jul 2003, 8907 posts, RR: 50 Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 11476 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting Highlander0 (Reply 23): Hmm, I do hope that it is announced soon so we can get the A vs B, US vs Eur shite out of the way and move on.
The announcement is very unlikely to be the end of the matter.
Highlander0 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2007, 129 posts, RR: 0 Reply 25, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 11456 times:
Quoting Scbriml (Reply 24): The announcement is very unlikely to be the end of the matter.
Thats what I hoped wouldn't happen.
26 MCIGuy: KAKE TV: No announcement until later this week. Story with video
27 Revelation: And you might be waiting a whole lot longer, like till hell freezes over! Are you kidding me? Once the decision is made, the true acromony begins, no
28 TropicBird: Internet search has found this leaked answer. Let the games begin! http://story.malaysiasun.com/index.p...d/3a8a80d6f705f8cc/id/331532/cs/1/
29 Drewfly: " target=_blank>http://story.malaysiasun.com/index.p...cs/1/ I hesitate to believe that the Malaysian Sun has insider information no other news sourc
30 AirRyan: About friggin' time we'd get a leak - way too big of a deal to keep hush on this long! Go GE and the NG KC-30 or should I say KC-45?!
31 TropicBird: I agree but thought I should share and let the readers decide.
32 AirRyan: Ughh, even if its untrue and only short lived, it's still nice to dream isn't it?
34 AirRyan: The culmination of many years of following the program - it'll be hard to believe that USAF actually made up it's mind on this one and regardless it
35 FRNT787: I could easily see another year or two with the GAO. You beat me to it.
36 AutoThrust: I think no one can believe this until we have a confirmation from a serious site like Reuters, EADS, Boeing, CNN... edit:typo[Edited 2008-02-26 19:54
37 AirRyan: Time will tell I guess - could be another "Dewey Defeats Truman" for all I know!
39 F27Friendship: lol 60% chance... how do you calculate a probability of a press conference anyway
40 SAS A340: Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 39): lol 60% chance... how do you calculate a probability of a press conference anyway Well.i'm sure it's not the press c
41 Scbriml: One more day? http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/bus...EB55F862573FC000C887C?OpenDocument
42 Lumberton: I wouldn't put it past DoD to announce Friday evening at 7:00 PM.
43 USAF336TFS: Gee, I hope not. I'm so looking forward to hearing the losing side moan about why their plane was so much better and this was a political pick and ya
44 Scouseflyer: So ignoring the arguments as to who SHOULD win this who does everyone see as the winner here? I for one expect a Boeing victory.
45 SAS A340: We al know witch the best aircraft is,right? the question is if you need to buy a Rollsroys when you just need a pick up truck. I'm looking forward t
46 KC135TopBoom: That tragic accident between a B-52G and a KC-135A had nothing to do with political inept. It was caused by a training deficiency on the part of the
47 F27Friendship: I agree, the EADS/NG offer indeed brings more jobs to the US.
48 USAF336TFS: Many of us believe that is the same aircraft. Excellent point, but I don't know if I'd use the Rolls Royce analogy. Maybe a Land Rover XLR versus a C
49 MCIGuy: Are you sure about that? I know KC-45 would bring more jobs to Wichita and probably Seattle. Nice... [Edited 2008-02-27 03:38:40]
50 N1786b: You are kidding, aren't you? If they win, it will keep a lot more people employed in Europe (read France and the UK) than it will in Mobile. - n1786b
51 SAS A340: I don't know what a Tahoe is but i'm with you on this one I think he was referring to the jobs produced in the us with EADS/NG contra Boeing,and not
52 F27Friendship: Are you sure? They already have people working for the 767 program which they otherwise would have to lay off. NG/EADS is going to build an entire ne
54 Art: It would be helpful if it were announced after the NYSE closes on Friday.
55 Moo: I highly doubt Boeing would lay anyone off from the shutting down of the 767 line - the workers will simply get absorbed into other lines - after all
56 NorCal: If the Boeing proposal is chosen more people will be hired to work on the 767 line and the previous people will get to keep their jobs. Also since Bo
57 Revelation: Well, 60% of all statistics are made up right on the spot!
58 F27Friendship: now this is not the case. You are insinuating, built on bias towards airbus being called subsidized from the start, that they will to the same in the
59 Stitch: I expect Boeing to win, but I am certainly not going to rail and gnash my teeth if EADS does, nor do I intend to start wearing sackcloth and ashes. I
60 N1786b: You won't get an argument from me about American workers being cheaper right now. They have laid off ONE EMPLOYEE in France and Germany. Please provi
61 SAS A340: Hmmmm...is this a bad thing??? Hmmmm...is this a bad thing???
62 F27Friendship: selling factories is the major part and is no minor thing to do. A lot of people will end up with no job, as they new owners will need to reorganize.
63 RedFlyer: I think Boeing is weighted towards a win on this, if nothing else than the fact that the Seattle aerospace manufacturing industry has a lot of politi
64 NorCal: So you are telling me that building a 179 KC-30s for $40 billion for the USAF will not help the financial case for a Mobile facility at all? Can't yo
65 NorCal: All the ones on the 767 line and the potential jobs from ramping up production. Not to mention the people who will no longer be hired by Boeing to wo
66 Scbriml: Is it more or less interesting than the fact that Boeing hasn't released the number of Japanese jobs that would be supported by selection of the KC-7
67 SAS A340: Some folk's here seems to have more focus on what EADS/NG will get from this rather than what the US/USAF gets/need from it...... And because of that,
68 Scbriml: Well, they waited till after the tanker decision was made. Not that I see that a US company being fined by the EU for defying anti-competition sancti
69 F27Friendship: it's not allowed to use a military deal to finance a commercial production line. EADS offered offset. ok, tell me exactly how many and where you got
70 RedFlyer: The USAF is going to get a world-class and very capable tanker REGARDLESS of who wins. Some folks here act as though they've had a life-long concern
71 RedFlyer: Well, your statement is not far off the mark. But the specific anti-competition greivances that have raised this particular fine are uniquely EU at t
72 Dk1967: You're right. But everyone knows that it is Congress who holds the purse strings, and they get the final say. Look at any major military program and
73 F27Friendship: I don't think microsoft will have any influence on thisone. Microsoft is a monopolist before it is a US company. It's not a Europe-US thing.
74 Columbia107: Well one thing is for sure. Washington State's Governore is not prepared to take it on the chin if Boeing loose. She expects Boeing will prevail in it
75 Lumberton: It's not a "factory", but an assembly line. Most of the airframe will be manufactured in Toulouse.
76 Scbriml: Some of it will be manufactured in France. Some of it in the UK, some in Germany and some in Spain. Most of the non-airframe components are manufactu
77 Columbia107: Apologies. You are indeed correct that aircraft manufacturer's have assemby lines!
78 NorCal: Boeing claims it will support more American jobs than EADS does and EADS has never refuted that point. I have also never seen any source claim that t
79 Zeke: Not even close, TLS is mainly an assembly line for the A330/A340. Most of the fuselage A330/A340 is made elsewhere and assembled in TLS. The wings ar
80 Scbriml: Boeing itself says 15% of the 767 is manufactured in Japan alone, without accounting for any other countries that might be contributing (which I beli
81 NorCal: From the same source "They supply fuselage panels, aerodynamic fairings, landing-gear doors and inspar ribs, which are equal to approximately 15 perc
83 Zeke: What is also disingenuous of your comments is the majority of the parts that make up those sections comes form the US. The manufacturing of those sec
84 NorCal: Boeing uses a lot of subcontractors for the KC-767 too, probably a lot of the same ones that EADS is also using. EADS has spent a lot of time and eff
85 Lumberton: My point was that it won't be "manufactured" in Alabama. It may be partially "assembled" in Alabama if things go that far, but not "manufactured".
86 Drewfly: Whoever guessed the Friday afternoon news dump seems to be the winner: http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssI...tilitiesNews/idUSN2745889920080227
88 Zeke: I don't buy Boeing's numbers for a second, I cannot see how the KC-767 will make more jobs than the C-17 (which has a higher US content), and US gove
89 Zeke: We you can trace the Al sheet, fasteners etc back to the US...you could also say what is done outside of the US is not manufacturing, it is just asse
90 Art: What's the tanker program for? To provide the USAF with the more appropriate tanker or to sacriice the USAF's needs to a socialist US jobs protection
91 Lumberton: I do. Northrup Grumman never effectively rebutted the 19,000 difference in jobs. Only to Toulouse.
92 NorCal: I thought EADS was building the A330F line in Alabama even if they don't get the USAF contract? You can't count those jobs as part of the KC-30 bid i
93 Astuteman: I'd be interested to know what percentage of a KC-767 get manufactured by Boeing, as in created from the raw material. Even though we call them manuf
94 Zeke: They have you have just had your eyes closed .... from http://www.leeham.net/filelib/ScottsColumn090407.pdf BTW the Department of Commerce formula fo
95 NorCal: First of all, the KC-767 meets the requirements of the RFP Secondly, the KC-767 is arguably the better bid The jobs required to build the A330-200F s
96 Zeke: I didn't know you had access to both the bids ... can you email me a copy ? The number of jobs created is not part of the contract at all, it is what
97 Lga1011: I think the USAF should take the 777 tanker. If they are going to take the 762 instead couldn't they take the 767-300 or 400?
98 Moo: Not being offered. The Boeing offering is a chimera of the various different 767 models, its not based on any one single model.
99 RedFlyer: Isn't it amazing how some people dispute Boeing's numbers but take as Gospel any numbers publicized by EADS?
100 Zeke: So how do you explain an output of 1/3 of that of 2002 requiring over twice as many people...both are Boeing numbers Please tell us when Scott Hamilt
101 NCB: Leaked: It's going to be the KC-767. Source: Air Force insider.
102 Glideslope: IMO, the Friday announcement "after" the market close says KC-30 without a doubt. Time to mend EU fences with the Bear awakening. Simple as that. IMO,
103 MCIGuy: Ya know, that thought had crossed my mind as well. Why would they be so concerned about market impact unless it was going to negatively impact an Ame
104 AirRyan: Let's not forget that Washington State is the only state in the United States where it is actually legal to copulate with animals. Everyone also know
106 Thorny: They announced the JSF winner the same way... after the markets had closed. I think it was a Friday, but I can't swear to that.
107 Atmx2000: That's flimsy reasoning for several reasons. First, after market hour announcements are made so as to prevent a few traders who might manage to get i
108 NorCal: No it is proprietary, can't share till it is made public Based on the RFP and the tanker missions that the USAF flies I feel the KC-767 is better sui
109 Atmx2000: Pretty weak reasoning. By the time the next bid comes around the A330 will be on its death bed. EADS hasn't made any commitment to build anything els
110 MCIGuy: Well, I'd normally agree with you but for the super-duper, ultra-top-secret way they're playing this. As others have noted, history of these types of
111 AirRyan: You think they would just shut down the line when the A330 was done rather than switch over to the A350?! By that logic perhaps WN will close it's do
112 Atmx2000: It really depends whether building the A332F is simply a ploy to win the tanker deal. I wouldn't count on them doing anything else unless they commit
113 Stitch: Not anymore - http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...s/2003314312_webbestiality20.html.
114 MCIGuy: Anyone notice that the default pic on the BIDS site is the KC-767?
115 Glideslope: I was not inferring a conflict between the two parties was likely. There is no question however that the EU and the US feel a need to work more close
116 Columbia107: Quote on a Defence based blog. A stock trader buddy of mine (who has no inside knowledge on this contract award at all but it's still a good point no
117 RedFlyer: The article, while written by someone outside of NG, references NG's numbers:
118 Stitch: Most analysts are saying Boeing's current share price assumes they won the deal. If the market assumes they lost, I think it would be down a lot more
119 RedFlyer: Why are you the only person in the Western Hemisphere that knows this incredibly obscure fact, AirRyan?
120 Baroque: Quite. On that line of argument, if Aus wants to create about the Japanese killing whales, it should introduce Qantas to some "incentives" to cancel
121 AirRyan: When the Euro debuted a little over 6 years ago the value of it per the USD was something like $.80 - it's now at $1.50 and so as to better compete w
122 Echster: It's not so much for this reason but to prevent those with inside information of who won from getting a leg up in any stock deal. Just last week, if
123 Halls120: Wow. When did Northrup Grumman cease being a US company?
125 Atmx2000: I quote Lord Ismay on the purpose of NATO: "keep the Americans in [Europe], the Soviets out and the Germans down." I might suggest that Brit perhaps
126 Zeke: And Department of Commerce and Boeing, but I guess you will ignore those numbers as they contradict what Boeing is now saying. Scott presented a bala
127 RayChuang: If the Northrup-Grumman/EADS team wins the deal, it could come down to this: the possibility that the Mobile, AL production line could produce 1,000 o
128 KC135TopBoom: " target=_blank>http://www.leeham.net/filelib/Scotts...7.pdf Are those prices correct, on page 16? KC-767AT $120M? KC-30A $160M? I assume that is fly
129 Venus6971: With the Boeing stock price closing lower could mean more problems getting the 787 delivered on time, they are continuing having supplier problems.
130 LifelinerOne: Well, look how that is helping General Motors and Ford! Ford lost a whopping 12,7 billion USD in 2006 and General Motors lost 40 billion dollars last
131 Astuteman: If they can't sell that to the EADS workforce as a win-win (contingent upon winning the tanker contract), they need new management..................
132 TheSonntag: In fact Germany was the biggest winner of the US staying in Europe. Not only for local jobs, as Americans shop at local dealers, but also it helped t
133 KC135TopBoom: When they sold their sole to a French company. If they really believe building A-330-200Fs in MOB will lower costs for EADS/Airbus, why don't they mo
134 Atmx2000: The bulk of the GM loss was a non cash loss (ie paper loss). The loss excluding that $38.3 billion charge was $400 million, and excluding all one tim
136 N1786b: For tax purposes only.... and it was a shrewd move in order to keep the French and Germans from fighting over where the HQ should be located. -n1786b
137 F27Friendship: I'm talking about nett new jobs, that's something different it's so funny the same hollow arguments pop up again and again and again. This is not the
139 Baroque: That attempt at a joke is probably getting on for being fifty years old and it has not aged well. NATO, Europe and many a.netters have moved on from
140 TheSonntag: Unfortunately, this is not an ability all Anetters have. Looking in the past is easier anyway, as you can keep your stereotypes of Left Wing Socialis
141 MCIGuy: I just look at what goes on here as light banter or "friendly disagreement", even though it can become heated sometimes. Make no mistake though, Amer
142 USAF336TFS: The shareholders, such as my myself. IIRC, 90%+ U.S. based interests. Ironically, Rolls Royce, a British company has 35% American interest ownership.
143 Zeke: That article says it was list prices for the commercial airframe. No, not my numbers, they were the numbers Boeing said it employed in 2002 when they
144 NorCal: I'm not sure what you mean by net new jobs. Once again the only thing that maters is that the KC-30 will result in a net loss of American jobs. Reall
145 Zeke: Two people in a row that have demonstrated that they that cannot comprehend a simple article, how can you confuse "the list price of the commercial v
146 Baroque: Not questioning that but do you have a source? I would like to see how much they know about the beneficial interests of some of the institutional inv
147 RedFlyer: That wasn't my point and, as usual, you're obfuscating the issue. Go back and read my previous post, which was that some people have a hard time beli
148 USAF336TFS: My guess is that large, U.S. based institutional investors, such as state pension funds have the biggest percentage of stock. Probably followed by Pr
149 Stitch: A good deal of her is assembled by Spirit Aerosystems, including the fuselage and I think much of the wings. I can't easily find an "outsource chart"
150 MOBflyer: But, they do have exceptional cases where these capabilities are required, many more where they are preferred, and thus the USAF should procure that
151 MOBflyer: The KC-30 will have a majority of US parts, and will be completely assembled in Mobile, Alabama.
152 Andhen: To all participants in this thread.. Take a few deep breaths.. Its a matter of hours or maybe a day until the news come out.. Nothing we say or do now
153 Stitch: It will undergo final assembly in Mobile, but the KC-30A's sub-assemblies will arrive in a significantly more completed state then the KC-767ADV's do
154 RedFlyer: Obviously, not the hallucinogens you're on. All I said in Reply 99 was: I have no idea why you decided to interject yourself into that reply to someo
155 Zeke: Pot calling the kettle back, NorCals' comments in Reply 95 were in response to mine in reply 94, not to you.
156 Pnwtraveler: The comment that was made that you don't want to buy an old design airframe to do the job shows how the thinking on this site doesn't always jive with
157 Beaucaire: Don't understand why all this guessing - Boeing will get this one for the obvious national pride and job-security reasons. Even if the A 330 is more e
159 Curt22: Assembled in Mobile Ala...if that doesn't lose "cool points" in source selection nothing does! LOL
160 F27Friendship: well.. I think that comparing to aircraft on metrics that are specified in the RFP and concluding one outperforms the other on virtually every metric
161 Revelation: That's pretty short sighted of them. If American labor is cheaper, and they need the space in TLS for the A350 assembly, it'd make sense to move what
162 Zeke: China, India, Philippines, Malaysia, South America are cheaper for labour, US and EU are both expensive. Yes and no, major sub assemblies will be shi
163 F9Animal: What is the big secret? Why is this such a big deal? Why create suspense? Just announce it already! Come on, this is becoming a joke.
164 Stitch: I've been trying to stay out of this debate, because I don't see much of an upside in joining in. But since we're close to the end, I just want to not
165 F27Friendship: you are suggesting it is only fair for the US not take the KC30 as certian European countries chose the A400M. What you forget here is, is that Europ
166 CaptOveur: Has anyone ever considered the possibility they might buy both? A little expensive? Yes. A little ridiculous sounding? Yes. However, this is the US Go
167 NorCal: The KC-767 meets the requirements in the RFP so the question now becomes which one better fits the mission profiles that the USAF flies. If you look
168 Zeke: Well I have asked over ad over for someone to come up with metrics under the RFP where the KC-767 is better. For the A400M selection, I can see sever
169 A342: But IIRC it doesn't operate at -400ER weights, right? IMO this would be a way to increase its performance.
170 Zeke: Not sure, when I looked at it last time I seem to recall that the you saw an increase in the OEW by the same amount of MTOW, no payload increase.
171 Stitch: I am suggesting no such thing. What I am suggesting is that countries - no matter where they are - do not solely make decisions based on who is makin
172 Zeke: The maximum number of tankers employed at forward bases during OIF was 11, it is not tens, not hundreds. The difference with a ramp area of 11 KC-135
173 NorCal: They can't say that till the selection process is over
174 Zeke: They have said will not make comments on the bids after it is announced either.
175 United777: I have heard that a announcement will for sure come tomorrow. Local and national media outlets are planning to be out at PAE tomorrow. We'll see if it
176 Blackbird1331: It should be right after the market closes at 4:00 EST.
177 NCB: Boeing has won it, I've got the info from an Air Force insider that I can not name, a reliable source though not member of the KC-X board. Not really
178 United777: This is correct from what I am hearing. I also hear that no matter what Airbus would not get the entire deal. If anything the deal would be split bet
179 USAF336TFS: Airbus really didn't spend a dime, Northrop Grumman did. As has been said all along, NG is the American marketing arm of this alliance between EADS a
180 NorCal: Which is exactly why the USAF hasn't said the KC-767 isn't right sized, but just because they haven't said it doesn't mean they aren't thinking it.
181 Stitch: Yes, but since Boeing knew from the 2002 "competition" that NG and EADS were going to offer the A330-200, there has to be a reason Boeing went with t
182 MCIGuy: Apparently, we may not even know tomorrow: Reuters
183 United777: From what I know news will be out tomorrow unless something happens at the last minute and with this deal that can happen.
184 AirRyan: If it were going to go to Boeing I can't imagine why they just wouldn't have announced it to the world on Monday - the longer it takes the more and m
185 ArniePie: Just heard from a very reliable source that the outcome will be even more surprising than previously speculated. Another deciding factor has been put
186 NCB: What is "right-sized"? A tanker capable of refuelling only 6 F-18's or one that can refuel 10 on a single mission? There's no doubt that the KC-30 is
187 NorCal: By the time that 10th F-18 is fueld up enough time would have passed that the 1st F-18 needs to be refueled. That is why we have always operated a lo
188 Scipio: Wasn't this average in large part determined by the capacity of the KC-135?
189 Atmx2000: The average was well below the capacity of the KC-135.
190 NorCal: The airforce could have bought more KC-10s if they felt they needed more fuel
191 TropicBird: If the KC-135 fuel load is the optimum capacity needed, why did they buy KC-10? Also, future plans are to replace the KC-10 with a similar size aircra
192 Thorny: KC-10 started out as ATCA, Advanced Tanker/Cargo Aircraft, with equal emphasis on the cargo. KC-X has cargo as a decidedly secondary role.
193 Atmx2000: To bail out Douglas? Seriously, no one said optimum, they said average, which tells you nothing about the variance across all missions. What a low av
194 RedFlyer: The Air Force has stated emphatically several times that they will not buy both airframes because it will only increase costs as well as logistical r
195 XT6Wagon: False, completely and utterly FALSE. Most KC-135 leave partially empty and return home with more than minimum fuel. Thus carrying MORE fuel than the
196 TropicBird: The AF required that the KC-X have a cargo door and floor system like the KC-10. Although they officially call the cargo and other non-tanker roles "s
197 MOBflyer: What is your source on the purchase price? 9% more total cost for what additional capacity? Are we short on parking space at airfields?
198 TropicBird: Wouldn't the KC-30 be the fourth largest in the AF inventory in the following order? 1) C-5 2) YAL-1A (Boeing 747-400F) 3) VC-25 and E-4B (Boeing 747-
199 XT6Wagon: YAL-1A is a test bed prototype, its not an operational plane as in flying missions from it. I think the frame isn't even owned by the government but
200 RedFlyer: Of the current USAF inventory, the KC-30 would be #2 based on wing span and #3 based on fuselage length. Model W/S F/L C-5 222ft. 247ft. KC-30 197ft.
201 Stitch: NG and EADS are offering the A330-200 because that is the minimum size they can offer. If EADS still had the A300 or A310, they might very well have g
202 RedFlyer: Good post, Stitch (as usual). But give it up. That particular argument has been pitched ad nauseum on this forum and it apparently falls on deaf ears
203 NicoEDDF: No, you shouldn't Let's face it: People here are mostly over and over repeating the same arguments trying to persuade any from the "other" side. Natu
204 Zeke: So you are saying because Boeing marketing is saying it, the USAF must be saying it ? come on we are not gullible here. If size was the only criteria
205 KC135TopBoom: Good one. ROTFL, I guess I deserved that. Me, too.................. I guess that is the confusing part. The red, green, black, and blue chart from No
206 Captoveur: When you get right down to it this isn't the Air Force's call.. It's up to congress. A bunch of politicians are going to fight to get what is best fo
207 Baroque: Well at present that seems a smart thing to do. http://investing.businessweek.com/re.../ownership/ownership.asp?symbol=BA Dated 29 Feb 2008 "Insiders
208 KC135TopBoom: Knowing the DOD, they are crossing their "i"s and dotting their "t"s. But, which ever one is purchased, it will fly both missions. Me too. The KC-767
209 NicoEDDF: Exactly what I wrote a bit above. USAF is not up to make the decision! Sad enough...
210 KC135TopBoom: I don't think it is such a good post. I don't think EADS really helped NG by offering the A-330-200 as the basic airplane, when the A-310-300 was sti
211 SAS A340: Some figures... http://www.airtanker.co.uk/capability-airrefuelling.htm
212 NCB: See that's the problem with the USAF. They are not efficient. In 40 years of service their KC-135's should have accumulated 30 000 TT each by now but
213 MOBflyer: Me too! Perhaps the USAF realized that there is absolutely no other way to avoid a protest and, because they need the tankers yesterday, have decided
214 KC135TopBoom: Obvoiusly you have no idea how the USAF works today, or how it worked throughout the history of the KC-135 airplane. BTW, the KC-135 has been in the
215 Scouseflyer: http://www.eads.com/1024/en/investor...Share_price/Share_price_chart.html The drop-off in the EADS share price today could suggest that they've not go
216 Moo: From what I saw of the JSF announcement, neither bidders got a team and both were informed via a central press conference.
217 Beaucaire: Paris stock-exchange is in a general down-turn today-all shares plunge -nothing to do with the tanker-deal. But I'm convinced this one is for Boeing-
218 Revelation: I appreciate your post, Stitch. I also appreciate your concern about whether you should have posted it. From what I can see, it's gone right over the
219 NorCal: I did not say that at all, don't put words in my mouth. You said this: All I am saying is that just because the USAF doesn't come right out and say t
220 NCB: "As of 1995, the GAO says the majority of the KC-135 fleet had logged a total of between 12,000 and 14,000 flight hours. From 1995 to late 2001, the
221 USAF336TFS: God, I can't wait until they make this announcement already. Anyone want to guess how many Protest threads there will be and how many times the same
222 Zeke: I don't know what was confusing, it was VERY clear. Maybe it was the ex-wife again Hmm.....dont think so....you have showed nothing to discredit the
223 Thorny: No technical explanations necessary. Those four contract wins were in nations that do not have a large strategic airlifter fleet. The USAF has 100 C-
224 NorCal: Higher offload rate doesn't matter since the limiting factor is the aircraft receiving the fuel. TopBoom illustrated this in another thread awhile ba
225 Stitch: Yes, a 764ER does have a 22t OEW disadvantage to a stock 762ER. But the A332/A332F has a 24t/25t OEW disadvantage, as well.
226 F27Friendship: I'm happy you can appreciate a good joke hey, what's this?! Tankers as cargo haulers?! the person I was quoting was suggesting that, I certainly didn
227 Rheinwaldner: I understand that is unbearable that a plane not coming from Boeing would replace the KC135 be it smaller, larger or equally sized (or have just any t
228 Pnwtraveler: If they don't announce this afternoon I can't take anymore of it and will buy a bottle of good whiskey and avoid the forum at all costs. Like you said
229 Stitch: One thing to consider if the sheer size and span of capability the USAF has when it comes to tankers and cargo planes. The Royal Air Force or Royal A
230 Zeke: Both Australia and the UK have ordered the C17 and KC-30. True, but the higher speed of the KC-30 makes it more efficient, even at the same offload r
231 Brendows: Just nitpicking, Thorny wrote: something that can't be said about the RAF or RAAF, they don't have several dozen C-17s or C-5s.
232 Jogales: Flightblogger is now reporting that there will be an official announcement at 5 PM ET today.
233 Scbriml: Confirmed by Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssI...tilitiesNews/idUSN2944601220080229
234 United777: I was told a news conf. was confirmed on Wed. for the annoucnement today. Even though a winner will be announced today (Boeing) this deal is still no
235 Scbriml: I'm sure you mean NG/EADS. I'm sure whoever loses will heed the words of Gen. T. Michael Moseley Yeah, right!
236 USAF336TFS: Whether NG/EADS is the loser or not, "fighting" is to the detriment of those in uniform. And I predict any GAO protest will not be upheld.[Edited 200
237 Arluna: Please explain this statement, it makes no sense. The offload rate is still the same no matter how fast the tanker goes. J
238 Scbriml: Do you think Boeing wouldn't protest if it lost? If, as has been suggested, the selection criteria were changed "at the last minute", then a protest
239 Zeke: Jet aircraft receivers generally burn less fuel when operating closer to their optimum cruise speed for that altitude.
240 NorCal: I don't understand your reasoning, what good is having a 8,000lbs per minute offload rate if you reciever can take nowhere near that amount? There is
241 USAF336TFS: I would have a problem with the loser, regardless which side it was. If anyone thinks that the Air Force wasn't ready for this, after all this time,
242 NCB: WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Air Force will announce Friday at 5 p.m. EST the winner of a high-stakes transatlantic battle for a contract to start
243 Zeke: That is MMo, normal operating speed for a 767 is M0.80, the KC-767 had vibration problems at higher speed with the hoses attached. You do realise tha
244 Thorny: I said large strategic airlifter fleet. RAF has four C-17s. USAF has 175.
246 Andrej: Bloomberg just reported that EADS (Northrop Grumman) won! Andrej EDIT: This was reported on TV, literally just couple of seconds ago. I will post more
247 NCB: Well, there's nothing on the website yet...
248 Andrej: The news just appeared on Reuters 3000Xtra and Bloomberg reported it. If there is any text I will post the link.
250 NA: Yep, Northrop is the winner. Just in here: http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/flightblogger/
251 USAF336TFS: And no such "announcement" was made on Bloomberg U.S. TV either, as far as I know. I've had it on all afternoon. I'm afraid we're going to see alot o
252 Andrej: Sorry mate, but that's where I heard it first. And yes they announced twice already! I would not come on this forum just making this stuff up! Andrej
253 Stitch: Well if NG has won, at least we don't need to worry about the changes being an issue.
254 NCB: "Northrop Wins Tanker Contract, Beating Out Rival Boeing By August Cole Word Count: 385 | Companies Featured in This Article: Northrop Grumman, Boeing
255 NorCal: Congrats to NG/EADS. I don't agree with the decision but hopefully it'll move along so that the Air Force can get new tankers.
256 Stitch: Well Boeing can now convert the 767 line to 787 production.
257 Ikramerica: And look for it to be scuttled just like the Boeing leases were. It's an election year. You don't outsource your defense spending during an election
258 Scbriml: If it's true, it's not a surprise to readers of the Malaysian Sun!
259 N328KF: Well, this will be interesting, if it stands. If so, then A330F production goes to Alabama. Could we even see A330 pax production moved there eventual
260 SAS A340: Ohh yes,and i guess that a couple of star and stripes are pretty close to a heart attack right now.......
261 NA: Nice one. I guess we have to watch that newspaper for some more hot news in the future! Btw, the decision justifies a new thread.
262 NorCal: The real question is how in the hell the Malaysian Sun broke this story and no news source in Europe or America could? Was it a lucky guess?
263 Stitch: There have been rumors NG could become a lead contractor on the A320RS program...
264 NCB: "Reports: Northrop beats out Boeing, wins tanker deal By JAMES WALLACE P-I AEROSPACE REPORTER In a stunning upset for The Boeing Co., the Air Force re
265 Andrej: I hope none of you are upset, but I started a new thread as I thought the same. Cheers, Andrej
266 ScrubbsYWG: a stopped clock is still right twice a day.
267 Pope: If you ask me this is a canary trap. The information has been leaked in order to identify the source of the leak.
268 RedFlyer: Well congratulations to EADS/Airbus/NG! As I said before, the USAF will be getting a world-class and very capable tanker regardless of who the winner
270 Scbriml: I think it must have been. I can't believe a Malaysian paper was the only place that got a leak. In fact, I'm surprised it went to less than an hour
271 NorCal: http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...SearchBox%26rlz%3D1I7DMUS%26sa%3DN Actually it appears that the KC-135 can be fit with a probe to refuel those
272 Andhen: What the 135 can or cannot do..? Well, it doesn't matter now, does it..?
273 IRelayer: I have been following this thread all week and this is indeed a shocker. -IR
274 Srbmod: Now that the decision has been announced, please continue the discussion in this thread: Usaf Decided On KC-30 (by Andrej Feb 29 2008 in Military Avia
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