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Australia To Stay With F/A-18F, Mulls EA-18G  
User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 9509 times:

Good news, I think the RAAF will more than satisfied with the purchase and I see a lot more Super Hornet buys in the future (USN, USMC, even India I think has a good chance.)

Quote:
Government clears Super Hornets deal
March 17, 2008 - 7:27PM


Labor will stick with the former government's controversial decision to buy 24 Boeing Super Hornets and may even extend the deal to buy some additional, specialised versions of the fighter bomber.

Today's announcement appears to vindicate former defence minister, now Opposition Leader Brendan Nelson, who announced the $6 billion Super Hornet deal in March last year.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/nation...deal/2008/03/17/1205602284435.html


AvWeek reports that they are interested in perhaps adding some EA-18G's to the buy, too - Boeing and the USN have demonstrated some rather impressive capabilities with a strike package consisting of EA-18G and F/A-18F's...

Australia Eyes E/A-18Gs, Confirms F/A-18Fs
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...%20E/A-18Gs,%20Confirms%20F/A-18Fs

[Edited 2008-03-17 17:15:28]

28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRomeoKC10FE From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 9470 times:

This off subject a little, but did the Aussies consider the F-15E/K/S over the F-18F, the Strike Eagle is an awesome platform!!

User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 9445 times:



Quoting RomeoKC10FE (Reply 1):
This off subject a little, but did the Aussies consider the F-15E/K/S over the F-18F, the Strike Eagle is an awesome platform!!

There was talk I believe of considering it over the Super Hornet if they couldn't get the F-22 but it really came down to bang for the buck and that Super Hornet it was.

The USAF offered an advanced F-15E+ to the USAF that they were interested in buying with the money saved up front with the initial tanker lease back before McCain outted the rats on the deal; after that I'm not sure what the USAF Strike Eagle plans may have evolved into. All I know is that the USAF spent a lot of time and money certifying the GE F110 engine and it's a shame to see the ROKAF with better Strike Eagles than our own USAF! (Same thing with Israel fielding better F-16's than the USAF!)


User currently offlineBaron95 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1335 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 9418 times:

This is really the best option for the RAAF in terms of bang for the buck.

Going forward they will have an awesome capability where of composing even solo/unsuported (by tankers, AWACS, etc) packages with say a couple of F-18Gs with enough radar/comm jamming pods each to warm up your coffee from 100 nm away plus the anti radiation missiles, 4 or so a-2-a configured F18Fs with Slammer Ds, two tranmitting, two hunting, 4+ F-18E/Fs with JDAMs, enough F18 buddy tankers. All of these with EASA radars, bi-directional datalink, lowish RCS, mapped ingress/egress routes.

Do you get the power? A single type jamming, harming, bombing, CAPing, refueling, all coming in at M0.95+. The Gs will stear you between radar strong holds, JAM/destroy the critical ones, mess up your comms. The a-2-a Fs s will CAP with EASA, the a-2-g Fs will come in with optical fiber towed decoys do drop the load. It is very unlikely that a non AESA/less stealthy can challenge the CAP. It is very unlikely that SAMs would be effective unless they fire on the order of 100 missiles at the package.

Looking forward to seeing the super-bug in RAAF colors and for them to add 6 Gs and another 24 E/Fs in the future.



Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 4, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 9364 times:



Quoting RomeoKC10FE (Reply 1):
This off subject a little, but did the Aussies consider the F-15E/K/S over the F-18F, the Strike Eagle is an awesome platform!!

It appears that the initial order for the F18 involved no significant input from Nelson's department and no known comparison with alternative aircraft and probably no proper study of keeping the F111s longer. You should not have asked Romeo.  Wow!

Nelson's decision to buy F18s had all the logic of a decision he made when Min for Ed to cut off funding to the organizations that run student cafeterias on campuses, all because the funding also ran organizations called student unions. It will take years to sort out that mess, and the F18 problem is a bit larger.


User currently offlineLegs From Australia, joined Jun 2006, 240 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9319 times:

I was always under the impression that Boeing offered the Super Hornet, and actively pushed it ahead of a new build, upgraded F-15

User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12150 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9305 times:



Quoting AirRyan (Thread starter):
Good news, I think the RAAF will more than satisfied with the purchase and I see a lot more Super Hornet buys in the future (USN, USMC, even India I think has a good chance.)

Why is any order for the StupidBug good news? It is a peice of crap. No, the USMC has not ordered it, nor will they. They want their F-35s.

Quoting AirRyan (Thread starter):
AvWeek reports that they are interested in perhaps adding some EA-18G's to the buy, too -

Since the EA-18G is the only game in town, it will sell as the stand-off and strike packager jammer.

Quoting RomeoKC10FE (Reply 1):
This off subject a little, but did the Aussies consider the F-15E/K/S over the F-18F, the Strike Eagle is an awesome platform!!

If they did, they wouldn't have ever considered the StupidBug.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 2):
but it really came down to bang for the buck and that Super Hornet it was.

That would be true if they were buying cap guns. But, to buy an airplane that cannot drop bombs as well as earlier versions (F/A-18C/D), or try to act like some kind of weird F-14A/B fleet defense airplane is streching the "bang for the buck" claque.

I guess the RAAF is running out of F/FB-111 parts.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 9282 times:



Quoting Legs (Reply 5):
I was always under the impression that Boeing offered the Super Hornet, and actively pushed it ahead of a new build, upgraded F-15

All I can suggest Legs is that perhaps Shirley McL prefers Hornets to Eagles. Maybe she does not like to watch Eagles or something like that. (Explanation available if needed!)

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):
That would be true if they were buying cap guns. But, to buy an airplane that cannot drop bombs as well as earlier versions (F/A-18C/D), or try to act like some kind of weird F-14A/B fleet defense airplane is stretching the "bang for the buck" claque.

I guess the RAAF is running out of F/FB-111 parts.

t

 checkmark   checkmark 
I can see the bang for the buck argument being followed by "it seemed a good idea at the time"!!

I think we have F you name it 111 parts by the shed load, literally.


User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 9137 times:



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):
Why is any order for the StupidBug good news? It is a peice of crap. No, the USMC has not ordered it, nor will they. They want their F-35s.

Well the USN may disagree with on the whole "crap" asseration, and as soon as the Marines buy into the EA-18G as they are all but assuredly going to do they will supplement the buy with F/A-18F's to replace their F/A-18D's because I don't think they want out of the FAC(A) arena, either.

Sure I miss the Grumman Navy days of GE powered Tomcats and advanced Intruders on the deck but hey while the Super Hornet airframe may not necessarily go down as the best ever the aircraft is outfitted with outstanding avionics and electronics which quite to the contrary do offer a very capable platform. So the Super Bug isn't the airshow performer than perhaps the F-22 would be but with JHMCS and AIM-9X, AESA radar, and next-generation AMRAAM missiles with 100+ mile range, well the F/A-18F is actually a quite worthy ride if you take the time to learn about it.


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12150 posts, RR: 51
Reply 9, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 9072 times:



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 8):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):
Why is any order for the StupidBug good news? It is a peice of crap. No, the USMC has not ordered it, nor will they. They want their F-35s.

Well the USN may disagree with on the whole "crap" asseration, and as soon as the Marines buy into the EA-18G as they are all but assuredly going to do they will supplement the buy with F/A-18F's to replace their F/A-18D's because I don't think they want out of the FAC(A) arena, either.

The USMC has already said they do not want, or need the F/A-18E/F.

You may be corret with the USMC eventually getting the EA-18G, as it is the only game in town for jammers.


User currently offlineAlien From Romania, joined Oct 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 9060 times:



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):
Why is any order for the StupidBug good news? It is a peice of crap

You normally make sensible observations. I don't think this is one of them. In what way is it a piece of crap?


User currently offlineLegs From Australia, joined Jun 2006, 240 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 9040 times:

This is probably going to be a tough question to answer, but does the Australian Super Hornet contract have a 'buy-back' clause, something that ties the RAAF into handing them back or only operating them for a certain timeframe?

Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
Shirley McL prefers Hornets to Eagles

That explanation would be very welcome, its sailing straight over my head!


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 12, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 8985 times:



Quoting Legs (Reply 11):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
Shirley McL prefers Hornets to Eagles

That explanation would be very welcome, its sailing straight over my head!

She was a friend of Peacock A, who I believe was Boeing in Aus at the time of the sale of the SF18s (2002 to Dec 2006). Shirley MacClaine starred with Peter Sellars in "Being there" the key line being "I like to watch". Sorry she is a Mac and not a Mc.

When Peacock was a very young Min for Army, a cartoon of the time had him in Vietnam addressing an Aus soldier as saying "I said my name was Peacock, not Pinprick".

Hot on the heels of not overturning the Hornets deal, the current Govt is trying to find a way around the voluntary student unionism part of Nelson's legacy to Universities. Perhaps we can take a leaf out of the Nelson book and only pay taxes for the Super Hornet if we wish to opt IN. Funny how things don't work this way!!!

No idea what the answer is to your question, but I think they would have leased them if this was the case. And AFAIK, this is outright as there has been much about how much spares is included, even though I think there is a contract for Boeing Aus to maintain them.


User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 8888 times:



Quoting Legs (Reply 11):
This is probably going to be a tough question to answer, but does the Australian Super Hornet contract have a 'buy-back' clause, something that ties the RAAF into handing them back or only operating them for a certain timeframe?

I have yet to read one and honestly I think the RAAF will value the aircraft well enough to keep them in addition to their JSF and fly them into retirement rather than sell them off or anything.


User currently offlineAlien From Romania, joined Oct 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 8877 times:



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 8):
So the Super Bug isn't the airshow performer than perhaps the F-22 would be but with JHMCS and AIM-9X, AESA radar, and next-generation AMRAAM missiles with 100+ mile range, well the F/A-18F is actually a quite worthy ride if you take the time to learn about it.

Due to it's avionics and the wide array of ordinance it is cleared to carry It also makes a great A2G platform, SEAD platform, CAS platform and tanker. Further it has a development spiral that roadmaps new engines, IRST and a host of other goodies. I think the RAAF is going to be quite pleased with the Super Bug.

Plus it is pretty good at airshows.


User currently offlineLegs From Australia, joined Jun 2006, 240 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 6 months 1 week ago) and read 8814 times:



Quoting Baroque (Reply 12):
She was a friend of Peacock A

Ahh, it all becomes clear!

I have no doubt that the RAAF will be over the moon with them, if for no other reason than the MTBF increase over the Pigs! The guys Ive been chatting to are pretty excited about them, and the new capabilities they'll introduce.


User currently offlineBaron95 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1335 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (6 years 6 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 8651 times:



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):
Why is any order for the StupidBug good news? It is a peice of crap. No, the USMC has not ordered it, nor will they. They want their F-35s.

I think the USMC may find itself into a fixed-wing JAM. I don't think they are out of the woods on this one. There is a significant risk that with AV8Bs becoming harder to maintain, the aging and really range challenged Hornets deficienceies, and, HERE IS THE IMPORTANT PART, the potential cancellation of the F35B, the Marines can be in a tight squeeze.

Only the Royal Navy potential order is keeping the F35B alive. If that goes, the F35B may be cancelled to same money and program delays. Better keep the fingers crossed on that one. A lot of people in congress have a hard on to strip the USMC of fixed wing aicraft mission capability.



Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
User currently offlineTsv From Australia, joined Nov 1999, 1641 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 7828 times:

From another source :





Super Hornets to get $35m rewiring

The federal government will spend $35 million rewiring its soon-to-be-delivered Super Hornets so that in the future they can be upgraded to include electronic warfare capabilities, Defence Minister Joel Fitzgibbon says.

...

RAAF Super Hornets are now moving down Boeing's production line and the first is due to be delivered to Australia in 2010.

Mr Fitzgibbon last year foreshadowed the government was considering acquiring the very advanced electronic warfare variant of the Super Hornet - the F/A-18G known as the Growler - now entering service with the US Navy .

On Friday, at Williamtown RAAF Base, north of Newcastle in the NSW Hunter Valley, Mr Fitzgibbon said the government would spend $35 million rewiring the Super Hornets, so they could be upgraded to Growlers if necessary.

Friday's decision means a number of the RAAF's aircraft will receive the appropriate internal Growler wiring during production, allowing their ready conversion to full Growler capability at a later time.

...

He criticised the previous government for not including the modification when the original order was made in 2007, saying its decision had been rushed.

...

"They rushed into the decision without doing their homework properly and they missed the opportunity to wire some of the Hornets as Growlers while they were on the production line, giving us a cost effective option of fully upgrading them at some future date."





The last bit seems a bit revisionist as the Growler wouldn't have been on offer to the RAAF in 2007.



"I told you I was ill ..." Spike Milligan
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12150 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 7530 times:



Quoting Alien (Reply 10):
In what way is it a piece of crap?

It cannot completely do the mission of the F-14, or A-6. The F/A-18 has always been a hybrid airplane, reasonable good at the attack role and the fighter role, but not superior at either.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 16):
HERE IS THE IMPORTANT PART, the potential cancellation of the F35B, the Marines can be in a tight squeeze.

Then the USMC will order the F-35C, the USN version.


User currently offlineTommytoyz From Tonga, joined Jan 2007, 1353 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 7075 times:



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 18):
t cannot completely do the mission of the F-14, or A-6. The F/A-18 has always been a hybrid airplane, reasonable good at the attack role and the fighter role, but not superior at either.

What would it take for the Aussie's to order some Sukhoi's? They're apparently outstanding aircraft and at a good price. A good bit better than F-18s in air to air for sure, air to ground may be a stumbling block with incompatible existing systems - but perhaps not. But then they could split the order between Sukhois for air to air and EA-18s for ground. With their asian neighbors having highly capable Sukhois, relying on just F-18s is a big risk. Other options would be to get some Typhoons or Rafaels to cover that gap the F-18s can't cover. F-35s are also no match for the Sukhoi/Rafeal/Typhoon.

F-15/16/18 - while excellent in their time, are past their prime. Their replacement, the F-35 is overpriced and under performs, so now there are big gaps that only the F-22 can cover very well, but that is not being exported nor built in large numbers.


User currently offlineCpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 38
Reply 20, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 6739 times:



Quoting Tommytoyz (Reply 19):

What would it take for the Aussie's to order some Sukhoi's? They're apparently outstanding aircraft and at a good price. A good bit better than F-18s in air to air for sure, air to ground may be a stumbling block with incompatible existing systems - but perhaps not.

The SU planes would simply be too difficult for support, and they are not politically expedient.

The F22 won't happen for Australia - as much as it'd be a wonderful plane for us to have. Too expensive.

I know the F35 is even more costly, but it doesn't require political back-flips to be made. The F22 would be a huge political embarrassment.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 21, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6619 times:



Quoting Cpd (Reply 20):
I know the F35 is even more costly, but it doesn't require political back-flips to be made.

Could be true and true, but the F35 does not really seem to be what we need. If Indonesia goes to hell in a handcart, us bombing it is not going to help and aside from NZ, where else can an F35 get, without assistance from - Indonesia?


User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7229 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6592 times:

Have not read all the technical details, but if they were able to correct the pylon issue without increasing drag, fuel burn and ultimately range, the F may have been a more capable a/c, you never know, they may still be looking at other ways to correct the problem.
What exactly did they do, angle the pylons so that with weapons loaded they broke up the wind flow which created the wind drop problem, just curious.


User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4840 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6405 times:



Quoting Baroque (Reply 21):
Could be true and true, but the F35 does not really seem to be what we need.

If Boeing could keep their touted price of this resurrected Eagle as is, it could well be a viable option.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...t-eagle-with-fifth-generation.html

Quote:
"Boeing today unveiled a new F-15 prototype aimed at the international market with such 'fifth-generation' add-ons as radar absorbent coatings, internal weapons carriage and integrated digital avionics, plus featuring a distinctive V-tail.

Improving the fourth generation fighter's profile on air-to-air radar is Boeing's key goal for the F-15SE, which the company plans to offer to five foreign countries with an estimated market for 190 orders.

[.....]

Boeing launched the F-15SE, initially dubbed Project Monty, in September. The company-owned F-15E testbed was quickly modified with the V-tail and conformal fuel tanks to provide a ground-based demonstrator.

Flight trials for a risk reduction programme are scheduled to begin in the first quarter of 2010. The first aircraft could be available for delivery to foreign customers three years after a deal is signed. Boeing plans to offer the F-15SE to Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Israel and Saudi Arabia, with all being current F-15 customers.

Notionally, Boeing estimates the F-15SE's cost, including airframe, spares and training, at $100 million each.
"

But why are they not putting in an AESA radar?

Quoting Baroque (Reply 21):
where else can an F35 get, without assistance from - Indonesia?

Well, didn't Australia and Indonesia just sign a new cooperation agreement?  Wink



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 24, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 6300 times:



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 23):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 21):
where else can an F35 get, without assistance from - Indonesia?

Well, didn't Australia and Indonesia just sign a new cooperation agreement?

True but relations run a bit hot and cold at times. Aus can be really stupid at times and Indonesia takes offense rather easily. But if we were to end up with a hostile Indonesia, we might as well hand over the keys - to someone! Very difficult to defend against about 10,000 small boats coming across the Timor sea - all at the same time. Better to work on the many positives the two countries have.  crossfingers  So all in all, it might be best to assume that Indonesia is not hostile as there is not a lot we can do if it IS!


25 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : What I can see here IF the F-35 price and timeline really went crazy is a chance for Boeing to offer an alternative. They could propose that the RAAF
26 Post contains links Lumberton : Latest is that Australia will purchase F-35s--up to a hundred of them. Also talks about 12 long range (conventional) submarines and 8 frigates. http:/
27 Post contains links and images DEVILFISH : It appears part of my post above has some chance of being reality..... http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-f-35s-in-defence-white-paper.html Quote
28 Baroque : Hmmm. I wonder when or if the purposes of these projected forces will be looked at sensibly. Moving away from what seems to be the more emotive issue
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